Lady Gaga's "meat bikini"

[fiamma]

To be honest I'm not particularly offended by it: I certainly wouldn't like to have raw meat draped over me, and wouldn't let anyone force me into doing such a thing - if that floats her boat then so be it. I also think the argument that "an animal died to make her costume" simply makes vegans look weak in the eyes of meat-eaters. Of course it's true in theory, but in reality it's just a drop in the ocean - with respect to the numbers of animals killed for meat, it's neither here nor there. Of course we should make our voices heard, but I don't think it's promoting meat; quite the opposite.

I think as vegans we need to shift our focus, and start showing the vegan population as a strong part of the population fighting against bigger issues, such as the health risks related to eating meat, and the environmental damage the meat industry is doing, rather than retaliating with a knee-jerk reaction which does us no favours and gives us no credibility.

As the "Telephone" video shows, she is quite a bizarre figure, and this cover will be forgotten by this time next week.

[Linz]

About the difference between fresh meat and leather, I hate to say this but there is one huge difference. The meat is made for people to eat while the leather has gone through a long process to be worn. Leather will not get spoiled and can be worn for many generations because it's a sturdy material. And leather is a bi-product compared to fresh meat. That is why most people react with disgust towards her wearing flesh instead of just wearing leather. Quite simple logic there.
Not that I'm promoting leather usage, it is still disgusting for what it represents.

A corpse is a corpse, and purchasing either is giving money to murderers. Simple logic.
Leather is not mearly a bi-product as it is a well established industry within itself - slaughterhouses don't say "well, look at all this left over skin, let's make a coat!", there is supply and demand regardless of the meat industry.

That is why most people react with disgust towards her wearing flesh instead of just wearing leather.

Wearing leather IS wearing flesh - just processed flesh.


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[leedsveg]

Of course it's true in theory, but in reality it's just a drop in the ocean - with respect to the numbers of animals killed for meat, it's neither here nor there.

I don't think that the animal that was killed to make her bikini would necessarily agree with you on this, fiamma. The animal was a real animal and didn't just exist 'in theory'. If concern for the fate of the individual animal makes vegans seem "weak " in the eyes of omnis, then I think it is up vegans to show why that perception is wrong. Our concern for the individual is our strength. This is why we continually need to remind omnis that when they have a relationship with animals by eating meat or wearing leather, they are doing so on the basis of 'one animal at a time'. And the life of each animal matters.

lv

[Linz]

I think as vegans we need to shift our focus, and start showing the vegan population as a strong part of the population fighting against bigger issues

A very fair point

[fiamma]

I don't think that the animal that was killed to make her bikini would necessarily agree with you on this, fiamma.

But it wasn't killed TO MAKE HER BIKINI; it was killed full stop. I'm not condoning the killing of animals for ANY purpose, otherwise I wouldn't be vegan. But how are you going to gain more credibility as a vegan; complaining to an omni about the scandalous use of meat as the new underwear, or giving that same omni some awesome vegan recipes, telling them why eating meat harms our planet, and how it harms our health?

[fiamma]

LV, did you edit your post after I replied to you? That's a bit unfair :-/ (If I'm wrong I apologise).

[leedsveg]

LV, did you edit your post after I replied to you? That's a bit unfair :-/ (If I'm wrong I apologise).

No I didn't edit it before I saw your post. I did take ages to compose it and I was a bit startled when I pressed 'submit' and two postings, including yours, appeared straight away. Not sure what happened, or if I'm doing something wrong. Is it possible to see other 'freshly made' postings before submitting ones own? I wouldn't deliberately alter a posting knowing that somebody had already responded but I'm sorry to be a cause of frustration to you, whatever I've done.

leedsveg

[fiamma]

No worries, leedsveg

[sandra]

I think as vegans we need to shift our focus, and start showing the vegan population as a strong part of the population fighting against bigger issues, such as the health risks related to eating meat, and the environmental damage the meat industry is doing, rather than retaliating with a knee-jerk reaction which does us no favours and gives us no credibility.

I have to disagree Fiamma.............to me the killing of animals is the 'bigger issue' here not the health risks to humans or the environmental damage. I as a vegan object strongly to animals being killed............I feel for them first and foremost. The other issues are secondary to that.

p.s. Did you get my recent pm Fiamma? I hope so.................let me know if you didn't will you? xxx

[leedsveg]

But how are you going to gain more credibility as a vegan; complaining to an omni about the scandalous use of meat as the new underwear, or giving that same omni some awesome vegan recipes, telling them why eating meat harms our planet, and how it harms our health?

The good news is, fiamma, that none of these things is mutually* exclusive. But if we don't encourage people to see that animals matter in themselves, then veganism gains no credibility. Of course veganism can provide awesome recipes, benefits for the planet and for individual health, but so can a total plant food diet. The thing that veganism adds is that it makes a person face up to the relationship that they have with an individual animal, so that if they so wish, they can say "I don't want to be part of that old way of thinking anymore, I want to be a vegan."

lv

*I realise that 'mutual' applies to two things only, but if Charles Dickens can misuse the word....

[Lara_Hastings]

A corpse is a corpse, and purchasing either is giving money to murderers. Simple logic.
Leather is not mearly a bi-product as it is a well established industry within itself - slaughterhouses don't say "well, look at all this left over skin, let's make a coat!", there is supply and demand regardless of the meat industry.



Wearing leather IS wearing flesh - just processed flesh.

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Leather IS a bi product because no animals were killed mainly to make leather from them. There are exceptions of course like crocodile skin and such.
But yeah, it still doesn't mean that no animals were killed. Just wanted to point out that bi product thing.
I still don't get it why some vegans want to wear fake leather then? If it looks and feels like processed flesh?

Edit: I also might need to clarify in case I get misunderstood, that I don't promote anyone to buy leather - especially new. I have mixed thoughts about second hand or old leather though. One might use it still, or throw it in the compost.

[sandra]

I still don't get it why some vegans want to wear fake leather then? If it looks and feels like processed flesh?

There are threads discussing this on the forum Lara i.e. recently on the 'Where do you draw the line' thread.

[Iroh]

As far as I know, leather is NOT a bi-product. You would not want to eat a leather cow and would not want to make some brogues out of a meat cow; they are completely different breeds which are bred for one purpose.

Skip to 3:50 on this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJgGEqa2xI - Do those scrawny cows look like they are being bred for meat?

Also, arguing fake leather products is like arguing against faux meats. Some people like the way meat tastes but don't agree with the killing. Some people like the way certain hides look but don't agree with the killing. I don't have a problem with imitation products.

[Festered]

Leather IS a bi product because no animals were killed mainly to make leather from them. There are exceptions of course like crocodile skin and such.
But yeah, it still doesn't mean that no animals were killed. Just wanted to point out that bi product thing.
I still don't get it why some vegans want to wear fake leather then? If it looks and feels like processed flesh?

Edit: I also might need to clarify in case I get misunderstood, that I don't promote anyone to buy leather - especially new. I have mixed thoughts about second hand or old leather though. One might use it still, or throw it in the compost.

'Cos otherwise I would be a bit of a mess if I came off my bike
I don't have a problem with fake leather at all. If people like the look of leather and want to wear it, but care for animals, find an alternative. No issues there. I think the important thing for me whilst wearing leather, is to stress at each opportunity, that it IS fake leather. I don't want folk thinking vegans think leather's okay.

As for the topic of this thread, yes its gross. I have no idea who lady gaga (what a ****ing name) is, but she's had the desired reaction, we're all talking about her. I care about animals a lot. Obviously. This is a one off incident though, and isn't going to get much thought from me I am sorry. People kill animals all the time...this is unlikely to catch on.
I kinda hope the flesh got fed to someone's dog or something

[Kimberlily1983]

When I heard about this story, first off I didn't know whether it was real meat or not, and secondly I thought she might be making a statement about animal exploitation. I always thought, wouldn't it be a great idea for someone to walk the red carpet with dead minks (fake or already dead from a mink farm - I think the bodies are for the most part considered waste?) draped over their shoulders. Yes, I know this is a horrifying idea, but it might shock people and make them think.

Then again, people seem to be pretty tired of shock tactics. I have no problem irritating and annoying people, pissing them off, etc. but we have to do it in a way that works and accomplishes something... Which is not to say that the shock tactics people are sick of aren't working. I think they might be, because when the opposition to them is making their case, the holes in the arguments are apparent to anyone who's giving the matter any thought. So, yeah... It's possible things we think of as failures are doing more good than we think.

[Sgable84]

She doesn't give a shit about anybody's "rights", except her own to get more publicity.

Cherry- I totally agree with you. She says shes wearing meat to show the "cruelty" and whatever...but come on...seriously?? That's like me saying I want to end world hunger by eating a 5 course meal....its an oxymoron.

I think shes getting more and more weird. I like her music, but shes getting a little to "wild" for me.

[Back-Space]

Cherry- I totally agree with you. She says shes wearing meat to show the "cruelty" and whatever...but come on...seriously?? That's like me saying I want to end world hunger by eating a 5 course meal....its an oxymoron.

I think shes getting more and more weird. I like her music, but shes getting a little to "wild" for me.

That's what keeps these people famous... Shows how fucked up our world is when idiocy lands you millions of dollars and fans

[Lady Mozdust]

She think's she's some sort of Messiah. Cannot stand her.