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Thread: Reversing heart disease

  1. #1
    John K.
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    Default Reversing heart disease

    I saw Wolfe Blitzers interview of Bill Clinton a few days ago. When asked about his weight loss and diet....Bill gave a short good description of his close to Vegan diet. He still eats a small amount of fish, but has stopped using dairy products..almond milk I think he said he uses now. According to him at least 25 years of documented research has shown that over 80% of people who made this change have reversed clogging of the arteries in time. If that is true the risk of them having a stroke is also lessened. That part of the interview is on the web I've noticed since. I'm not sure if I can buy things like almond milk locally though. I live near Stratford, Ontario and I know the local Zehrs store has the soy substitutes. My family does have a history of strokes around the age of 78-80. All of them were meat eaters and used dairy products. Bill claims his new diet is cholesterol-free and I think also that he feels better. Any thoughts? John

  2. #2
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    Hi John,
    Regarding almonds... they are good for the heart for various reasons - one being that they contains rhizveritrol (the he anti-inflammatory agent in red wine) - but you don't need almond milk to get the nutrients in almonds. Just eat almonds! The main ingredient in almond (etc) milks is water anyway...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  3. #3
    John K.
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    Quote Korn View Post
    Hi John,
    Regarding almonds... they are good for the heart for various reasons - one being that they contains rhizveritrol (the he anti-inflammatory agent in red wine) - but you don't need almond milk to get the nutrients in almonds. Just eat almonds! The main ingredient in almond (etc) milks is water anyway...
    Thanks and Hi Korn,
    And how about cooking without milk. Can the milk substitutes be used instead of milk for something like scalloped potatoes. Do you agree with the notion of reversing heart disease? Being 52 I vaguely remember that in biology in grade 9 or so we were taught about the obvious difference in teeth of animals...the teeth showed with living and extinct species what kind of food they ate. Our species have the teeth of a non-meat eater.

  4. #4
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    I would have to look up 'scalloped' (English isn't my native language)... maybe others can respond to that question?

    In general, whatever you do with cow's milk in a recipe, you do it with something else. Of course the taste won't be exactly the same - just like the it wouldn't me the same if one was emulating the taste of rice 'milk' with cow's milk. But some vegan ice creams, for example, taste so close to dairy ice cream that most people won't notice a difference. Please just give it a try if you're considering 'veganizing' something you usually make with a dairy product.

    Regarding opinions about reverting heart disease, my 'official' viewpoint in almost all cases related to science is that... I have no personal opinions. What's true and untrue in such cases can only be revealed by large, unbiased studies. But why not have a look at some of the existing literature (the books Clinton apparently had been reading)? If you go to our Vegan TV/Health section, you'll find some YouTube with some of these MDs.

    We have many references to articles about heart health on our site:

    Vegans & heart disease (CVD)


    Eating fish doesn't save you from heart failure


    Gluten-Free Vegan Diet May Protect Arthritis Patients From Heart Attack

    American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Vegan lifestyle good for the heart, body, soul and mind

    The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Healthy Heart Handbook


    Homocysteine levels are related to heart disease, and also related to vitamin B12 levels. Low B12 level are associated with high homocysteine levels. But there's no common agreement that 'if you just raise your homocysteine levels (eg. by taking B12), your heart will be healthier'. Veganoutreach.com and vegansociety.com have been focusing on this link for quite some time, and here's what The Vegan Society writes:

    To meet the US and German recommendations you need to obtain sufficient B12 to absorb 1.5 micrograms per day on average. This amount should be sufficient to avoid even the initial signs of inadequate B12 intake, such as slightly elevated homocysteine and MMA levels, in most people. Even slightly elevated homocysteine is associated with increased risk of many health problems including heart disease in adults, preeclampsia during pregnancy and neural tube defects in babies.
    And...

    Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications. Homocysteine levels are also affected by other nutrients, most notably folate. General recommendations for increased intakes of folate are aimed at reducing levels of homocysteine and avoiding these risks. Vegan intakes of folate are generally good, particularly if plenty of green vegetables are eaten. However, repeated observations of elevated homocysteine in vegans, and to a lesser extent in other vegetarians, show conclusively that B12 intake needs to be adequate as well to avoid unnecessary risk.
    This seems to be a direct quote from veganoutreach.com's sub-site veganhealth.org, and if you look at what I've put in bold, they insist that the elevated homocysteine levels are the reason, and the heart problems is the effect.


    The obvious question that arises is then: if vegans have low B12 levels, and higher homocysteine levels are caused by low B12 levels, and the remedy is to reduce the homocysteine levels, why is then a vegan diet (containing very small amounts of B12) a good solution?

    Since this topic interests you, I suggest that you (if you have time) look at this thread: B12, homocysteine, & heart disease. Please don't get me wrong: I do NOT suggest ignoring B12 or homocysteine levels at all... Most people's B12 levels are reduced by all the B12-reducing factors existing in our modern lifestyle, of which many are mentioned in this thread: 50 ways to develop B12 deficiency. Both vegans and non-vegans need to face the facts when it comes to side effects of living in a 'denaturalized' world.

    But the vegan/homocysteine 'paradox' could have an extremely important element which isn't even mentioned in eg. The Vegan Society's writings about the topic: what if both high homocysteine levels and heart problems both are... symptoms? If both are symptoms of something else, symptom #1 (heart disease) doesn't disappear by removing symptom #2 (elevated homocysteine levels). We should not ignore the dangers associated with elevated homocysteine levels, and some health problems may be solved simply be working with the homocysteine levels alone. But please look at the above mentioned homocysteine thread and let me know what you think. If you don't want to read through the whole thread, at least take a loot at whatever is highlighted in bold. The largest studies are referred to towards the end of that thread, if I remember right.

    You are discussing reverting, not preventing heart disease. I find it reasonable, in a totally non-scientific fashion, if members of one species constantly consume something their bodies can't handle well, it will cause negative consequences for their bodies. The bad-ish news could be that if someone more or less daily, for decades, eat something known for representing a health/heart risk, starts to eat something else (eg. at Clinton's age), this won't necessarily eliminate all the side effects of what they have been eating for the previous 60+ years. Still, it doesn't make sense to continue consuming food which is bad for your health (only hospitals seems to ignore this: they often serve cancer or heart patients exactly the same food that cancer and heart specialists claims is part of the reason they have cancer or heart problems!!!!).

    It seems obvious that the longer we continue to do something that's bad for us, the greater the damage will be. I assume you're a non-vegan, since you post here, and 52... Why not try something else for some weeks/months, so you can see what it feels like to exclusively eat something our species do have the teeth to del with (using your own reference here)? Out of curiosity - what would be a good reason, for you, not to try both a vegan and a non-vegan diet, if you are concerned about your heart/health, if I may ask?

    But we have to do better than these hospitals, and the general impression I have after having reading about vegan diet and heart disease is that eliminating animal products could save many humans' lives (no, they won't live forever.... ). One thing I know for sure, and this is one of the few things I actually do have an opinion about: eliminating animal products from the human diet will save a lot of animal lives. And since there, to my knowledge, are no heart experts who recommend an increased intake of burgers, sausages or cheese (etc), there should be plenty of room for improvement in most people's diet.

    You mention that your non-vegan family have a history of strokes around the age of 78-80. Genetics play an important role, and some people can survive on an unhealthy diet throughout their life. But statistics show that most people have spend many years of their lives with health problems, and that the older they get, the worse it gets.

    Statistics often look at isolated topics, and ignore all the side effects of people's poor health. Many studies only refer to how old people get.

    'Everybody' know or have heard about someone who became very old and was eating lots of flesh, usually combined with drinking and smoking a lot - but all science seem to agree that we can't use these exceptions as an excuse to assume that if some people can do this, the rest of us can follow their example with the same 'success'.

    Opinions or not - it doesn't make sense to ignore the massive amount of research clearly documenting links between diet/lifestyle and human health.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  5. #5
    John K.
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    Wow, thank you so much Korn !,....
    for taking the time for such a reply. Bill Clinton believes (regarding reversing H.D.) that a Vegan diet can actually slowly remove plaque/fat build-up in ones entire blood circulatory system. If so, despite decades of unhealthy eating a person could avoid things like a future bypass operation, stent implant, etc. which they may face in the future. So while Veganism is often sold by the morality of not enslaving,killing or hurting animals...many more could become interested because of better care for their bodies. Many people in N. America have their cholesterol levels checked and take potentially dangerous drugs to try to regulate it. Probably few of them realize that they can almost eliminate cholesterol totally from what they eat and drink. I hope you can catch that interview (Wolfe & Bill)...it isn't very long regarding the diet part. I don't know if it would be OK for me to post a link to it..so I won't. Perhaps I can say it can be found at the website of a particular TV news network. Bill does mention the titles of the books he's read on the subject as well as a few studies. Thanks again for all the info. John

  6. #6
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    I don't know if it would be OK for me to post a link to it
    Sure - just post it!
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  7. #7
    John K.
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    Here is the link to former president Bill Clinton talking to Wolfe Blitzer about the his new almost total Vegan diet. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...iref=allsearch regardless of what you make of Bill he is a very intelligent ex-president who is in high demand for his ability to eloquently speak on a vast array of subjects. Thanks again Korn....you are great...and English being a 2nd language for you is not noticeable. Scalloped Potatoes....type that in a Google 'images/picture' search and you will see, what that particular dish is. Over here most would make it using a packaged product like 'Betty Crocker-Scalloped Potatoes'...check that out on the web. Of course some make scalloped potatoes totally home-made...my ex-wife does them great. Homemade the main ingredients are potatoes, onions, milk(!!!) and some spices. But it is something you can very much look forward to eating along with whatever else is planned at the time. So I hope the link works. Thanks again Korn............in Canada...John PS:no marketing here either....check this out...I think it turned out well...a 14 minute tour of Stratford for potential visitors to see on my Youtube Channel...the highest resolution is the best..but takes at least 20 minutes to fully load, a thumbs up or favourable comment would be appreciated and is free to anyone who does so . http://www.youtube.com/user/CDNJK?feature=mhum

  8. #8
    Beanstalk
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    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    I have heard Lipitor is good.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Reversing Heart Disease

    I have heard the side effects of Lipitor are terrible (fatigue, muscle pain, elevated liver enzymes). I used to work in a heart and vascular clinic/hospital setting as a patient service assistant. Also, Lipitor is not cheap and unless a person changes their diet and lifestyle anyway another drug is not going to make it all better. It's sad that people want the quick fix instead of going to the heart of the problem (pun intended).

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