B12: a BIG part of the answer is here...

[vplnt]

yes... people tend not want to listen... why? this has been said/studied/known for so long time:
B12 is present in bacteria, and good bacteria=fermentation= sourdoughbread, tempeh (NOT tofu) sourkraut, kimchi, beer (well i dont recommend it, but i like to stick to the facts), idli, and much more....
we all have lost our most basic understanding of nutrition, including vegans. fermenting is an ANCIANT way! before agriculture, we were fermenting...

[vplnt]

the interresting thing is that fermentation comes in many ways to create food textures, from solid, semi-solid to liquid- the liquid can be as a fermented drink, or as a condiment.
Here are some of the materials used for fermentation:
wheat, rye, other cereal, rice, coconut, peanut, banana, veg (cabbage, carrot etc...), bengal gram, millet (mostly for making drinks), sorghum, cassava root and other roots, other beans...
Fermentation also removes the toxins of soy beans and other beans (that are present even after cooking them, but ususally not if you add fermentation)

[Korn]

Hi vpint, and welcome...
The really interesting aspect of all this is IMO if the B12 that can be found in eg. sourdough bread and sauerkraut (etc) is active, bioavailable; the amount of bioavailable, active B12 is important - the inactive B12 can cause harm. Fermentation is an old 'technique', but I'm sure you agree that just having read somewhere or heard that eg. sourdough bread contains useful B12 doesn't make this true... so if you are aware of actual studies with concrete info on B12 in these products, with concrete numbers, please let us know. There are lots of assumptions about B12 levels in both plant food and other sources, and since we both like to stick to the facts - please bring them!

[Clueless Git]

I posted this elsewhere but the main source of B12 is a soil bound bacteria that thrives in soil fertilised with 'poo'.

On that slightly scientific basis I figure that eating naturaly grown vegetables, that haven't been peeled or overly cleaned, is a pretty reliable B12 source.

The consumption of plant foods grown in soil fertilized with human manure (occasionally called "night soil") might also provide adequate B-12. Herbert [1988, pp. 852, 854] notes:

[Korn]

That would depend on a number of factors, like the cobalt levels in the soil. which plants we a re talking about, how fresh the food was eaten, if the plants were eaten cooked or raw, if the water (if cooked/when washed) was chlorinated and more...
By the way, your link seems invalid... (and we do have a similar/relevant thread here: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...barley-and-soy). If you're talking about the old 'study' from Iran on plants grown in 'night soil', from what I've heard, this study never happened. If you have more info than me on this , please share it!

[Clueless Git]

If you're talking about the old 'study' from Iran on plants grown in 'night soil', from what I've heard, this study never happened. If you have more info than me on this , please share it!

See below matey

It's on the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition website ...

Halsted went to Iran and found that they grew their vegetables in night soil (human manure). The vegetables were eaten without being carefully washed and the amount of retained vitamin B-l2 from the manure-rich soil was adequate to prevent vitamin 8-12 deficiency. Thus, strict vegetarians who do not practice thorough hand washing or vegetable cleaning may be untroubled by vitamin B-l2 deficiency.

Source: http://www.ajcn.org/content/48/3/852.full.pdf

[Korn]

Thanks. I've seen this report from 1959 mentioned a few times, but again: newer info suggests that not only were there never any real study happening, but also that there weren't even a group vegans to study in Iran back in 1959. Add this to the studies showing that 95% of the B12 molecules found in human excrements are found to be inactive B12 analogues, and the likelihood that one could use this 'matter' as a way to get active B12 into plants is relatively unlikely.

Some people (non-vegans, mainly) just love to state something which indirectly suggests that vegans can get B12 from natural sources only if they more or less eat their own poo. And while some of these people are the same who claims to know that all B12 in plants is unusable due to the existence of B12 analogues, they seem to be totally confident that the B12 coming from 'nigh soil' is totally usable. Maybe I'll try to find that old book one day and check out what they actually found (if they found anything).

But can you find anything about reliable amounts of useful B12 in sauerkraut and sourdough bread?

[Clueless Git]

Thanks. I've seen this report from 1959 mentioned a few times, but again: newer info suggests that not only were there never any real study happening, but also that there weren't even a group vegans to study in Iran back in 1959. Add this to the studies showing that 95% of the B12 molecules found in human excrements are found to be inactive B12 analogues, and the likelihood that one could use this 'matter' as a way to get active B12 into plants is relatively unlikely.

Some people (non-vegans, mainly) just love to state something which indirectly suggests that vegans can get B12 from natural sources only if they more or less eat their own poo. And while some of these people are the same who claims to know that all B12 in plants is unusable due to the existence of B12 analogues, they seem to be totally confident that the B12 coming from 'nigh soil' is totally usable. Maybe I'll try to find that old book one day and check out what they actually found (if they found anything).

'Lo Korn

My understanding is that is NOT the B12 in 'poo' that is important. More that 'poo' in the soil causes the completely seperate B12 producing bacteria that live in the soil to have a bit of a 'feild day' (as it were) and to produce more actual B12 than they usualy do.

In support of that: No animal produces B12 itself? Yet plant eating animals are full of the stuff and thus plant eating animals must be obtaining it from the plant food that they consume?

But can you find anything about reliable amounts of useful B12 in sauerkraut and sourdough bread?

Nothing that I can remotely understand matey. No

[Korn]

No animal produces B12 itself?

B12 synthesis may happen in animals, but need cobalt and some B12 synthesizing bacteria to happen, and for the records, B12 produced for use in supplements also needs cobalt and bacteria.

Where exactly does Vitamin B12 come from?

[Clueless Git]

B12 synthesis may happen in animals, but need cobalt and some B12 synthesizing bacteria to happen, and for the records, B12 produced for use in supplements also needs cobalt and bacteria.

Is there any reason why this synthesis does not happen in human animals that you know of Korn?

If not I'm kinda figuring that there is still a big pointer towards B12 in humans being obtainable from the same basic sources that other animals get theirs from.

[Korn]

It does happen in humans as well, and there's a discussion about this somewhere else in this B12 section.

One thing that's being discussed is where the synthesis happens (B12 that's generated after the part of our digestion system won't be absorbed), and it's also a thread about how this may work differently for vegans than it does for non-vegans, for a couple of reasons.

This may also have to do with human evolution. Since many/most humans through generations have been a part of what Donald Watson considered 'man's greatest mistake' (see my sig), and thereby increased our collective B12 intake 'contrary to natural law', to use Watson's words again, maybe our bodies ability to synthesize B12 has been reduced.

Or maybe it actually still synthesizes the B12 we need, but that the B12 amounts we get from external sources have been rapidly reduced due to environmental etc. reasons... and that this has happened in a faster way than we can deal with in evolutionary terms. About reasons that our bodies would not want to high B12 levels, look eg. here or here.

These threads may interest you:

Up to 0.5 micorograms daily B12 produced in the mouth
Do vegans need less B12 than others
High B12 levels associated with an up to 3-fold increased prostate cancer risk


Does a healthy body manufacture B12?


If Dr. Victor Herbert should be only slightly close to the truth when he stated that the B12 we needed to absorb from food is 0.1-0.25 micrograms per day, and that 'the minimum daily requirement for vitamin B12 to sustain normality is probably "in the range of of ~0.1 mcg.", our bodies (may have gotten shock from all the B12 we received from animal products - in any cases 50-150 times as much B12 as Herbert write that we need, the phenomenon called evolution may have made us all synthesize less B12.

Herbert also wrote "To a great extent, B-12 is recycled from liver bile in the digestive system...The enterohepatic circulation of vitamin B-12 is very important in vitamin B-12 economy and homeostasis...bodies reabsorb 3-5 mcg of bile vitamin B-12. Because of this, an efficient enterohepatic circulation keeps the adult vegan, who eats very little vitamin B-12, from developing B-12 deficiency disease". But please don't listen too much to Dr. Herbert... he died before it was common knowledge that we are constantly exposed to factors that reduce/eliminate B12 intake and B12 levels in soil/water etc. He emphasized in other writings that vegans do need an external B12 intake in addition to what we get from food, in a way that makes it obvious that he didn't take all the B12 reduce elements into consideration. Today, most people with good knowledge about B12 and vegan food know this (unless they live in Manchester or are called Jack).

Some more threads:

How much B12 is there in plant based diet?
Lost ability to manage without dietary B12 due to past meat eating?
B12-friendly lifestyle: How much B12 would be enough

Remember that we also have to distinguish between B12 intake and actual absorption:
Food for thought: At what levels is B12 absorption best?

I believe that Herbert was wrong. The current recommendations do, to some degree, take all the "B12 killers" into consideration, and suggest a much higher B12 intake than Dr. Herbert suggested that we needed. 0.1 mcg/day is probably too little even if we would live a few thousand years ago in a 100% B12 friendly environment. And - vegans or not, intestinal B12 synthesis in humans or not, we must of course not forget that we don't live in some natural B12 paradise...

Regarding vegans ability to absorb/transform/synthesize nutrients, a new study that was published recently concluded that "Despite zero intake of long-chain omega-3s eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and substantially lower intake of their plant-derived precursor alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), vegan participants converted robust amounts of shorter-chain fatty acids into these long-chain fatty acids."

I'll be very surprised if similar studies showing 'surprising' info about the actual B12 levels we need to absorb and vegans' ability to recycle/synthesize B12 will be published within a few years.

[vplnt]

I have heard more than one person saying that when they went vegan, they had big problems with their stomack or digestion. Same for me. I now have no problem at all with this, thanks to one big change in my diet: kimchi, sourkraut or other fermented veg.
it really works.
other effects: more energy, and more fighting against colds and others. immunsystem is strenghtened.

[Korn]

Hi vpint, I merged this thread with your other thread about kimchi etc.

it really works.

That's great! There are studies that report that kimchi has some sort of B12 in it, but even if these products work for you, we don't really know if the B12 is active (which we discussed in November). I'm not saying that you are right or wrong, only that in order to state for sure that 'it works' due the B12 in eg. kimchi, we need to know that the B12 found in kimchi is active for humans.

[lisa1]

Great post. In Korea they consume a great deal of fermented food. I love Kimchi, I also really love fermented Garlic. It has a strong odor that most people can't stand unless your a true garlic lover.

[RainInStarlight]

Another reason to eat sour dough bread, then, eh?

[Korn]

According to some, sourdough is probably better for you than yeast - but although there are some old report suggesting that sourdough contains B12, I wouldn't rely on sourdough bread as a B12 source unless more studies confirm that the found B12 is active for humans.

[RainInStarlight]

According to some, sourdough is probably better for you than yeast - but although there are some old report suggesting that sourdough contains B12, I wouldn't rely on sourdough bread as a B12 source unless more studies confirm that the found B12 is active for humans.

Oh, I understand. I just like sourdough bread alot, that's all. ^^