View Poll Results: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #251
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post

    To say "I kill nothing within the animal domain" is inconsistent with killing a living human.
    An embryo is not a living human.

  2. #252
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    An embryo is not a living human.
    Anyone else still of this opinion?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  3. #253
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Just to clarify, my comment is not an opinion but a fact, from a purely scientifical point of view:

    • humans are vertebrates - embryos don't have a spine.
    • humans have brains and central nervous systems - embryos do not
    • humans are complex multi-cellular organisms - embryos can have as little as 2 cells (this is closer to an amoeba or a hydra than a human)

    You may disagree ethically with this fact but scientifically, it is what it is.


    on a different note... IVF treatment, are they kiling "unborn humans" in your opinion cupid? (you know, all those discarded fertilised eggs)... how about IUDs? the day after pill? those methods do not stop fertlisation/conception which I believe you were arguing as the clear cut line...

  4. #254
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    Just to clarify, my comment is not an opinion but a fact, from a purely scientifical point of view:

    • humans are vertebrates - embryos don't have a spine.
    • humans have brains and central nervous systems - embryos do not
    • humans are complex multi-cellular organisms - embryos can have as little as 2 cells (this is closer to an amoeba or a hydra than a human)
    You may disagree ethically with this fact but scientifically, it is what it is.
    Is anyone else of that opinion?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  5. #255
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo Cobbers

    Was it me and thee who had a short and freindly exchange over 'no perfect choices following imperfect choices'?

    Making babies that we don't want is kinda one of those situations.


    Meat eaters use that one a lot.

    Well yes, and yes, so I think we agree and I'm not really 'on the fence'!.
    and yes, meat eaters do use the plant argument a lot and I find it silly when they do it, too, so silly I don't even think it requires serious discussion. Mind you I wouldn't wantonly destroy a plant or tree for no reason, either, out of respect for all living things. If someone can show me a pregnant plant screaming with pain during childbirth then I may have to give more thought to the topic.

  6. #256
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Is anyone else of that opinion?
    I am.

  7. #257
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    I am.
    Yes but you already stated your case; That you don't care how unethical it is, Sniv.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  8. #258
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    What is that position based on, if I may politely enquire, Harpy?
    In summary:
    1) outlawing early abortions causes more harm than permitting them.
    2) people are entitled to make their own decisions about their bodies, other things being equal, and in the case of early abortions I consider they are equal. (I view early abortions as roughly equivalent to non-conception or taking the morning-after pill in terms of suffering caused or rights/freedoms infringed.)

  9. #259

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I am vegan yet agree with abortion, because as it is the woman who has to carry the child for nine months then bring it up, I don't see anything remotely ethical or moral about bringing said child into a life of misery or where it is unwanted or cannot be cared for properly. What about when birth control methods fail? Or when a woman becomes pregnant following a rape? These situations are not her fault. And no-one should be forced to bring a child into the world against their will. For their sake, and for the child's.

    How can the Catholic Church fight tooth and nail against abortion, when it is run by men? Here in Italy, where there is regular contamination between Church and State, doctors and pharmacists can legally refuse to intervene to terminate a birth. It's called obiezione di coscienza. Objecting on the grounds of conscience, I suppose you could translate it as. To me this is completely wrong; others may see it differently.

  10. #260
    Why hello! xwitchymagicx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I am pro-life for myself as I can't see a reason why I'd not want the baby. I know people say "I'm not financially stable, I'm not this I'm not that" but obviously it is meant to be for you get pregnant and that time, you are denying that child of a life. I don't really like it at all.
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

  11. #261
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote xwitchymagicx View Post
    I am pro-life for myself as I can't see a reason why I'd not want the baby. I know people say "I'm not financially stable, I'm not this I'm not that" but obviously it is meant to be for you get pregnant and that time, you are denying that child of a life. I don't really like it at all.
    I think that's a really nice, really simplistic way of putting it (no offence meant atall). I do think that abortion isn't treated as seriously as it should be in our society, but then raising a new person is a very serious undertaking aswell. The financial side of things isn't a good excuse not to have a child really as we all have to find ways to manage, but there are other reasons which I would see as valid, e.g serious mental or physical problems that the potential mother might have.

  12. #262
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Yes but you already stated your case; That you don't care how unethical it is, Sniv.
    Not my point at all, but you knew that. I meant that I accept the morality of any action I take, and take great care to make the option that I think is best. Sometimes the "best" option is not ethical. Many times there is no entirely "ethical" choice. Of course, the arguement comes because "best" and "ethical" are subjective.

    Everyone knows that. Anyone who pretends not to is a dick.

    But thanks for your argument style. I'm enjoying the new "environment" of this forum I've been on for years.

  13. #263
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    The only clear line is conception.
    Not clear to me. Conception is a point at which only 33% of life forms go on to a further stage of pregnancy. 66% never implant. I would say implantation (happens about a week after conception, with a much higher % of life forms going on to a further stage of pregnancy.

    Personally (again, this is an area dependant on values, which are subjective), I view any means of preventing implantation 100% ethical with no qualms. (Which is why I support plan b so much. It could replace so many abortions) After that, I view abortion as an ethical negative, which may or may not,have a greater negative impact of its alternative (again, very subjective) up until about 8 weeks. After that, my view is the same, except the negative impact is greater, and would require a negative impact on the mental or phyisical health of the mother greater than it's to be an acceptable option. (mental impact might be something like giving birth to a rapists child)

    These things are all subjective, and I'm all for debating, but I have.never understood the point of argueing this subje ct with an "I am right attitude." No one is "right" with something like this. Its impossible.

  14. #264
    snivelingchild's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Damn, just lost an entire post on my quarrel with the"abortions on demand" phrase.

    To summarize with less time: the only entities familiar enough with a situation to make a decision are a woman amd her doctor. The government determining this is a very dangerous crossing the line.

  15. #265
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "I can't agree Fiver.

    To say "I kill nothing within the animal domain" is not inconsistent with killing plants.

    To say "I kill nothing within the animal domain" is inconsistent with killing a living human."
    "I must say I agree with CS on this one, Fiver, the plant argument is just silly!."
    You just don't get it. If you accept that ARBITRARY EXCLUSIONS are legitimate, how could you possibly counter this defense of racism?

    Mr Racist:
    "I can't agree Cupid.

    To say "I kill noone within white society" is not inconsistent with killing niggers.

    To say "I kill noone within white society" is inconsistent with killing a white person."
    Put aside the fact that you include animals and exclude plants and that this hypothetical racist includes white people and excludes black people. The LOGIC behind these statements is undeniably equivalent. By all means, say that you disagree with the second set of statements but do not deny that an arbitrary grouping is being used to avoid treating like cases alike. If you say that it is wrong to harm and kill animals because they are alive and should be allowed to complete a life cycle, then you must also acknowledge that plants are alive and can complete a life cycle. Harming and killing plants must also be wrong *given your stated reasons for objecting to a specific treatment of animals*. There is no getting around your own words. The only thing that prevents you from treating plants the same is prejudice.

    The fact that 'plants' and 'animals' have different labels is irrelevant. Likewise, if Mr Racist argues that it is wrong to kill 'white' people because they have an interest in their own liberty and security, then he must also acknowledge that 'black' people have an interest in their own liberty and security. Neither race nor skin colour can diminish the biological features which give the individuals in both groups a welfare, conscious interests and desires. The fact that some individuals have been labeled 'white' and others 'black' is equally irrelevant. If you legitimise prejudice in one case, how can you reject it in another!? You cannot.

    Justice demands that we look beyond the groupings and examine the qualities and capacities in individual cases *to see whether the stated reasons for having moral concern for some apply to others*. THIS IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER. You are on seriously dangerous ground if you accept that logic can be thrown out the window, that a few of those alike in ethically relevant respects can be lumped into groups and excluded simply because of group membership and PREJUDICE.

    You cannot just say that you are right and someone else is wrong. You cannot allow that racism and other prejudice is simply a difference of opinion. You must be able to explain WHY the reasoning of the people you disagree with is inconsistent/illogical/based on groundless assertions.

    Mr Meat Eater:
    I can't agree Cupid.

    To say "I kill noone within the human species" is not inconsistent with killing animals.

    To say "I kill noone within the human species" is inconsistent with killing a human.
    etc...

  16. #266

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    But are sperm cells not potential life forms also?

    So by this logic, isn't masturbation a sort of mass murder?

  17. #267
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi Fiamma, nice to see you back in the forum.

    That is the point Fiver and I are trying to clarify with Cupid... the logic of his argument (so far) from what I have read seems to go this way (please Cupid correct if wrong):

    Cupid says:
    I am a buddist and therefore against the killing of all life. Embryos are alive and they belong to the human species therefore I am against killing them.

    Fiver says:
    That makes no sense at all, if you are against killing life, then plants are alive and so are bacteria, therefore your argument is flawed unless you are against killing plants and bacteria too.

    Cupid says:
    But an embryo is alive and belongs to the human species therefore this is equivalent to killing a live human

    Manzana says:
    An embryo is not equivalent to a living human: it has no spine, no central nervous system and therefore it is nonsensical to put them on equivalent levels from a purely scientifical point of view. An embryo is indeed closer to an amoeba or a sperm than a human.

    And this goes on an on in circles for several pages...

  18. #268
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi witchy,

    prolife for yourself may still be prochoice for everyone else?

    I am about 90% (perhaps more?) pro-life for myself too, nevertheless, I would never be so arrogant so as to impose my decisions and my choices on any other woman on the planet. I am lucky that I have access to contraception, an understanding and caring partner and live in a safe environment where it is unlikely that I will be a victim of sexual violence or other types of coercion.

    While I wholeheartedly agree with you that if I got pregnant, chances are that I would go ahead with it, I prefer to live in a society where a woman can make decisions about her body without having to do something illegal: therefore I am Pro-choice as I respect the right of people to take decisions according to their circumstances.

  19. #269
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Fiver racism is entirely different, it is the concept of being 'against' something of the same animal kingdom/species just because of the difference in skin colour. Plants are not part of the animal kingdom and I don't think it's 'speciescist' because of the various anatomical differences between animals and plants (e.g lack of brain, nerve endings, etc). Why are are YOU vegan if you think there is so much inconsistancy?.

  20. #270
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I must admit though, as soon as someone says "I believe xyz *because* I'm Buddhist/Christian/Muslim, etc" they lose my attention. I like to know what an individual's OWN opinion is.

  21. #271

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Thanks for your welcome Manzana

    I must admit I am not one for philosophy; I find it very difficult to follow, plus I find that often philosophers have difficulty translating their arguments to the real world.

    It is also one of those threads that feels like rowing a boat with just one oar, thus it tends to go round in circles, as you said...

    Interesting that Cupid is male... would his argument be different if he were female?

  22. #272
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi Cobweb,

    I think the point fiver is trying to make is that Cupid has not given any reasons for being against killing embryos other than "embryos are alive". Logically it follows that if he is against killing embryos because they are alive, he should be against killing plants and bacteria because they are also alive. (the racism example was just trying to illustrate this point, I don't think that fiver is against killing plants, bacteria or pro killing other races, he was just trying to highlight the flawed logic with some examples)
    Last edited by Manzana; Jan 3rd, 2011 at 10:48 AM. Reason: too many double negatves...

  23. #273
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    But I think Cupid's argument is a bit more than just that, I think it's because an embryo is a potential human being (not sure though!). It's such an emotive argument, I have to say I felt sad seeing a picture of a 9 week old foetus, it's very recognisably a human baby, even at that early stage, and there is something pretty repugnant about the idea of those tiny bodies piling up in abortion clinics.

  24. #274
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi Cobweb,

    I understand your discomfort. Note that I have ALWAYS talked about embryos, not foetus. There is a big difference. An embryo is not a foetus and is not a human being either.

    • everyone that takes the day after pill can "kill" an embryo
    • everyone that has an IUD can "kill" an embryo
    • most people that do IVF "kill" embryos
    • Most embryos die naturally after being created.


    Embryos are clusters of cells not human beings and they do not even have a human form/spine/heart/central nervous system. From an ethical point of view there is scope to protect their "potential to become human beings" but from a scientific point of view, there isn't that much room to argue: a chicken is not an egg and an embryo is not a human being.
    Last edited by Manzana; Jan 3rd, 2011 at 11:04 AM. Reason: ... further clarifications...

  25. #275
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Not my point at all, but you knew that.
    Can we put that put that down to my misunderstanding your statement that "I don't care how unethical it is", Sniv?

    The supporting idea that celibacy would turn us all into murderers and rapists was an interesting one, btw.

    Many times there is no entirely "ethical" choice.
    Entirely ethical choices are about as scarce a sighting as are rocking horse droppings. We have agreement there.

    Sticking to the topic matter as closely as possible; Once an unwanted pregnancy has occured the two not-entirely/entirely-not ethical decisions are to end a new life or to allow an unwanted pregnancy to go full term with all the associated risks.

    There was an entirely ethical choice existing before that though; That being either not to do anything that would create an unwanted life OR to take an attitude kinda'long the lines of "if I do this thing that I know creates new life and a new life is created then it will be a new life that I want".

    Indeed once the opportunity for that entirely ethical decision has passed then only choices between one non-ethical option and another can possibly remain.

    But thanks for your argument style. I'm enjoying the new "environment" of this forum I've been on for years.
    My arguing style is goddam awfull. I know that.

    I can only ask that people try to look beyond the style for content and sincerity and other than that I can only apologise.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  26. #276
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "Fiver racism is entirely different, it is the concept of being 'against' something of the same animal kingdom/species just because of the difference in skin colour."
    Did you read my post? The logic used by racists and speciesists is equivalent. They both say that group membership overrides ethically relevant similarities that are shared by beings belonging to different groups. See my next point, coz you made an interesting comment...

    "Plants are not part of the animal kingdom and I don't think it's 'speciescist' because of the various anatomical differences between animals and plants (e.g lack of brain, nerve endings, etc)."
    Firstly, discrimination against plants solely because they are plants is most definitely speciesism, but...I AGREE with you when you say that one of the important differences between plants and animals is ANATOMICAL DIFFERENCES, such as the lack of a brain, nerve endings etc... That is what I said about three pages ago*!! Plants do not have those things and neither do underdeveloped embryos. That is why I am saying that abortion of these cannot be wrong, if killing plants is not wrong. Conversely, if people think abortion is wrong coz it harms and kills, then they should logically oppose the killing of plants, bacteria etc... Also, see next.

    "Why are are YOU vegan if you think there is so much inconsistancy?"
    I only think there is inconsistently in saying that you oppose harm and killing, but then engaging in it (plants can be harmed and killed). There is inconsistency in not treating like cases alike (as do people who act like plants cannot be harmed and killed and those who are prejudiced). I'm simply for people saying what they MEAN and being consistent. Oh, and saying 'I believe such-and-such just because' or relying on prejudice is a cop-out and dangerous.

    *It's actually the mental faculties which are enabled by these things which are important, which is why I focus on personhood.

  27. #277
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    Interesting that Cupid is male... would his argument be different if he were female?
    That is a very interesting question!

    Definitely, if I had not been a pro-abortion male for a considerable period of time I would not know, and could not argue, some of the points I know now.

    I do take the time to double check with SlackAlice, m'mum, and m'daughter for a female PoV on this topic very frequently also.

    It would be interesting to know if you and any of the lady contributors think it would make any difference to your own arguments if you were male?

    Also do any of the lady contributors think it is for better or for worse that we males have more or less interest in the future of any eggs that our little 'tadpoles' happen to hit?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  28. #278
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I would prefer males took more interest than they do on whether their "tadpoles" as you call them hit any of our eggs... HOWEVER, I would also prefer it if that interest was restricted to controlling THEIR tadpoles and not OUR eggs or OUR bodies.

  29. #279
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    i.e. for clarification, men are more than welcome (a very valuable contribution and a needed part) to control their sperm and to look after their offspring. For the 9 months that it takes to make a baby, I would prefer that they were supportive of whatever decision their partner makes with her body and their possible child.

    She is after all the one that is putting herself at risk of physical harm (sometimes permanent), possible death and other considerable less important (but also relevant) matters such as missed career opportunities, lack of earnings etc.

  30. #280
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    OMG, my sperm are running amok! They are out of control.

  31. #281
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?


  32. #282
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    But I think Cupid's argument is a bit more than just that, I think it's because an embryo is a potential human being (not sure though!).
    'Lo Cobbers

    It is because every human embryo, from point of conception onwards, is a uniquely 'coded' human being with a unique future. You end that unique life and it never arises again. Other equaly unique lives yes, that unique life, no.

    Everyone who has ever had a kiddie knows that to be true.

    The importance of that is unquantifiable but of absolutely immeasurable importance is this: No fully informed choice can be made without that fact being fully understood which requires that fact is fully know.

    The only possible reason for denying such a clear and obvious fact is when, for one reason or another, the concept of fully informed choice is being opposed.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  33. #283
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post

    It is because every human embryo, from point of conception onwards, is a uniquely 'coded' human being with a unique future.
    But how is that different from plants? Each plant also has a unique DNA and a unique future.
    or IVF fertilised eggs that end up being discarded/ day after pill embryos that cannot attach to the uterus/ IUD embryos? They are also unique and carry unique DNA of a unique person with a unique future...

  34. #284
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    (please Cupid correct if wrong):
    Will do
    Cupid says:
    I am a buddist and therefore against the killing of all life.
    Wrong.

    Cupid is not against the killing of all life.

    Cupid is both a vegan and a buddhist (a crap one, admittedly) and neither vegan nor buddhist is against killing life from within the plant domain.

    Cupid is both a vegan and a buddhist and both vegans and buddhists are against killing anything within the animal domain.

    But how is that different from plants?
    From both a buddhist and vegan PoV because plants are from the plant domain.

    If you had asked "how is that different from an insect, mollusc, fish, cow, chicken ..." the answer would be this:

    From either a buddhist or a vegan PoV it absolutely isn't.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  35. #285
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ok... so following that logic " a sperm is an animal cell therefore you are against killing sperm"?

  36. #286
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    The logic used by racists and speciesists is equivalent.
    Veganism is speceist against the plant domain Fiver.

    Racism is sub-speceist in that both sub-group the human species by overiding similarities in favour of differences.

    Abortion also sub-groups the human species by overiding similarities in favour of differences.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  37. #287
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Vegans are not against killing anything in the animal domain purely on the basis of them belonging to that biological classification. Vegans are against harming animals because animals have a central nervous system and therefore can suffer and feel pain. Sperm cannot, IVF embryos cannot and non IVF embryos or normal plain sex embryos cannot feel pain either because they have no central nervous system...

    Unique DNA yes, just like plants and any other animal cell but pain or suffering no, that is beyond an embryo and a plant.

  38. #288
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    A sperm or ovum is also uniquely coded (and from within the human domain, assuming it is a human gamete). Yet Buddhists don't feel obliged to take every opportunity to conceive, do they?
    Last edited by harpy; Jan 3rd, 2011 at 12:32 PM. Reason: brain fag

  39. #289
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Veganism is speceist against the plant domain Fiver.
    Cupid... You are wrong there. Veganism would treat any plant with a central nervous system just like it treats animals with central nervous systems.

    It is not specist... If it possesses the ability to suffer, vegans do not harm it and that is for plants, extraterrestrial life or animals it does not matter. Unfortunately (fortunately?) no plants have been found to have a entral nervous system so at present they are excluded from the "sufferers club".

  40. #290
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    ok... so following that logic " a sperm is an animal cell therefore you are against killing sperm"?
    Another VERY interesting question Manzana!

    Would you like to start another topic entitled "Can you be vegan and still give/receive blow-jobs"?

    Either that or flick back a few posts to where that particularly desperate peice of desperation has already been covered and moved on from.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  41. #291
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Another VERY interesting question Manzana!

    Would you like to start another topic entitled "Can you be vegan and still give/receive blow-jobs"?

    Either that or flick back a few posts to where that particularly desperate peice of desperation has already been covered and moved on from.
    I don't see anything in this thread that has established a case for regarding a separate sperm and ovum differently from a fused sperm and ovum.

  42. #292
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Cupid, I don't have time to deal with sarcasm (which by the way I have heard is the lowest form of wit).

    You are not arguing logically and several people are trying to point that out and you are ignoring their (very logical) points completely.

    I do not know if that is because:
    a) you do not understand their points
    b) you do not understand logic
    c) you understand a) and b) but have difficulty communicating your thoughts in a logical manner

    Either way, it is obvious that if I wanted to start that thread I would have done without your help, but thank you anyway.

    Going back to the thread, i am still not sure what makes an embryo in your view worthy of being categorised as a suffering human entity when it has no central nervous system. I am also unsure what it is that makes IVF embryos less worthy of your concern or why some methods of contraception that get rid of embryos are not considered evil according to your fairly random (it would appear) believe system.

  43. #293
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ^ I agree. Cupid Stunt will not accept that a fertilised egg is not the same as a fully developed human baby, it only has the potential to become one, and he has difficulty realising that embryonic growth progesses via successive cell divisions, with specialised organs, nervous system etc emerging at different stages of pregnancy, measured in weeks from conception. These stages are not 'broad smudges' any more than conception and primary cell division are. An early abortion is very different from a late-stage induced abortion.

    Quote harpy View Post
    A sperm or ovum is also uniquely coded (and from within the human domain, assuming it is a human gamete). Yet Buddhists don't feel obliged to take every opportunity to conceive, do they?
    haha, very good point harpy! I wish Cupid would reply! This reminds me of Jack Kerouac's famous saying (from his 'Dharma Bums' buddhism-inspired celibate phase), 'pretty girls make graves'. I'd have thought avoiding the wheel of becoming would be a bonus for any embryonic buddhist.

    Quote Cupid Stunt
    The only clear line is conception. That is the point is at which a unique human life is set into progress. Any point after that a unique human life either has to take its chances or be intentionaly and deliberately ended.
    One of the chances it has to take, along with the very high likelihood that it will spontaneously abort, is that it will be intentionally aborted. As I wrote earlier, it's another level of 'natural selection'.

    Interesting that effectively, Cupid has reversed his position regarding abortion, from his admitted former selfishly-motivated 'pro-choice' position to his present moralistically-motivated 'pro-life' stance. It's just not as black and white as you claim, Cupid. But I agree that all relevant information should be made available to women before they make the choice.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  44. #294
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    .
    Last edited by cobweb; Jan 3rd, 2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: double posting, forum went funny on me!

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    Hi Cobweb,

    I understand your discomfort. Note that I have ALWAYS talked about embryos, not foetus. There is a big difference. An embryo is not a foetus and is not a human being either.

    • everyone that takes the day after pill can "kill" an embryo
    • everyone that has an IUD can "kill" an embryo
    • most people that do IVF "kill" embryos
    • Most embryos die naturally after being created.


    Embryos are clusters of cells not human beings and they do not even have a human form/spine/heart/central nervous system. From an ethical point of view there is scope to protect their "potential to become human beings" but from a scientific point of view, there isn't that much room to argue: a chicken is not an egg and an embryo is not a human being.

    Yes but this argument/debate has centred around abortion, hasn't it, and abortions can't be done at that much of an early stage, anyway most pregnancies aren't detected at that stage either. Or are you saying (and I've been really thick) that this ISN'T a debate about abortion but about being pro-life in a much broader sense?.

  46. #296
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi Cobweb,
    The day after pill and the coil are methods to avoid implantation of the embryo so they are in the strict sense of the word "abortions" of embryos.

    You are right that you do need to detect a pregnancy and you can do that approximately 2 weeks after conception. If the legislation is supportive I think if a woman wants an abortion it should be treated as an emergency and she should be able to get rid of the embryo before it develops further.

    I don't like the idea of foetuses being aborted but I don't see that there is any question whatsoever at the embryonic stage.

  47. #297
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Things have no doubt changed in recent years, it used to be the case that early abortions couldn't be done sooner than something like 8 weeks in (because they were just too small to find I think?). I don't think we had morning-after pills, etc when I was young, but in general I think they're a good idea - coupled with decent sex education AND support.

    I just wondered if I had waded in and got involved with this debate having misinterpreted the title as being exclusively about abortion, because that is what the term 'Pro-life' immediately makes me think of, and 'abortion', to my mind, is the termination of a viable pregnancy at the foetal stage. So maybe I've just been misunderstanding a few things on this thread . If in fact this whole thing has been about the sanctity of preserving even *potential* life, e.g an embryo, then I can see why fiver's point may be valid.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    buddhists are against killing anything within the animal domain
    I thought the Buddhist line on meat-eating was somewhat hazy? Don't many Buddhists eat meat?

  49. #299
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I understood that the position of some Buddhists is that its ok to eat dead animals as long as someone else does the dirty work of killing them. This is just one of the many reasons I hate debating with people who tell us what their collective religion 'believes'. In order to debate surely one must think for oneself?.

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    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    HI Cobweb, I found the following graph interesting on at what stage most of the abortions are done in the UK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK..._histogram.svg as you can see, the vast majority are before 10 weeks and a very large number around 8 weeks or earlier.

    For those not squeamish (YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED if you are squeamish!), here is a picture of what an 8 week embryo looks like: http://en.ikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Embryo.JPG (the size is approximately 2-3 cm)

    Approximately from this point on (10 weeks) you get a foetus.

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