View Poll Results: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #301
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Not sure if that graph includes non-invasive type abortions though, at the earliest of weeks, or maybe they can be done very early now due to more advanced equipment. At least its reassuring that most are done very early, I would imagine many of the later ones are due to problems with the developing foetus.

  2. #302
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sou...3Bw7IyJ7p7biTw

    (I can't do neat and tidy links!) - found above, it states that the embryo becomes a foetus at week 6 (but that is taken from the woman's last period I think)

  3. #303
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    We dont want big dead bodies piling up at our abortion clinics.

    Afore you know it they'd have no room left for all the little dead bodies in their dumpsters and their skips.?
    Womb contents are not thrown into 'dumpsters and skips'. This is just emotive language intended to imply disrespect. As many people have now commented, countless pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, so according to your logic, most 'little dead bodies' end up being flushed away or disposed of along with sanitary pads, unrecognisable as 'bodies' in the bloody discharge.

    Anyway, I think this discussion has made it clear that it is indeed possible to be vegan without being 'pro-life' in the anti-abortion sense, since so many committed vegans share the opinion that, while far from being ideal, abortion should not be outlawed as a birth control method of last resort.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  4. #304
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ^ you always talk a lot of sense, kokopelli

    I, too, disliked the emotive language used in that post, and also the connected passive-aggressive one about 'caviar'.
    CS, you have accused me of sitting on the fence, well you're wrong, I have just been open to what both 'sides' had to say on this one. Having mixed feelings doesn't = fence sitting.
    You've helped me feel certain about the issue though, and I've gone with sense and reality instead of emotion/emotional blackmail on this one.

  5. #305
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "Veganism is speceist against the plant domain Fiver."
    I don't agree. You're the first vegan I've encountered who has said that.

    "Racism is sub-speceist in that both sub-group the human species by overiding similarities in favour of differences."

    "Abortion also sub-groups the human species by overiding similarities in favour of differences."
    Racists override *ethically relevant* similarities (for example, the interests that people of ALL races have in not suffering and being free) which are the product of associated anatomical similarities. Racists sub-divide on the basis of differences which are NOT ethically relevant (group membership, skin colour). These differences do not augment or diminish the interests of individuals among any race and thus are inadequate grounds for prioritising or overriding these interests. Whereas, saying that plants and underdeveloped embryos do not possess the anatomical features which must necessarily be present for lifeforms to have interests in the first place is a valid claim. Therefore, treating them differently to grown animals can be endorsed without prejudice.

    When it comes to ethical matters, not all similarities and differences are equal.

    The 'group' mentality you have is something you really should reconsider. Racists argue exactly what you (Cupid, speciesist) are arguing - that merely because embryos are a member of a particular group (animal) they are therefore more worthy than other lifeforms which are mentally alike (plants).

  6. #306
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I understood that the position of some Buddhists is that its ok to eat dead animals as long as someone else does the dirty work of killing them.
    Buddhism, generaly, is now so corrupted over the subject of meat eating that it is a bit of a joke Cobbers.

    That to the extent that when I used to argue for the veg*an diet on buddhist forums I actualy got warned off of making any further posts which made any form of alignment between meat eating and a lack of compassion for it's victims.

    Debates on buddhist forums about against eating looked exactly how this one looks, btw.

    I always 'lost' them due to sheer weight of numbers.



    As a 'PS': If anyone is interested in what buddhism actualy says about vegetarianism (it is NOT vegan though I think it would have been if the buddha had foreseen the suffering of intensive dairy and egg farming) there is a good site here: http://www.shabkar.org/about/thesite/index.htm.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  7. #307
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "I always 'lost' them due to sheer weight of numbers."
    Look on the bright side Cupid. Majorities don't make things right. Truth and sound arguments do.

  8. #308
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    Look on the bright side Cupid. Majorities don't make things right. Truth and sound arguments do.
    Majorly so Five, majorly so ...

    Are you familiar with the Gandhi quote to the effect that "the truth is the truth even it is known to a minority of only one"?

    I'm rather enjoying the 'brain-strain' of the argument that you are making at the moment btw and I hope to have to have time to return to that one later. You have been particular good at moving off of the silly stuff like 'sperm are humans too' and finding more solid ground to work from.

    Like everyone else (I imagine?) I'm back to work today with all the associated time restraints.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  9. #309
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    You have been particular good at moving off of the silly stuff like 'sperm are humans too' and finding more solid ground to work from.
    If you don't mind my saying so, we may have hit on the real reason you lost those earlier arguments with meat-eaters. Dismissing other views as "silly" is not going to change anyone's mind, whereas explaining why those views are flawed might.

    In this instance, some people find it arbitrary (i.e. not rooted in a valid distinction) to give special status to a fertilised ovum but not to the ovum and sperm that went to make up that fertilised ovum. If you really wanted to convince these people otherwise, you'd have to explain logically why you feel the the fertilised ovum should be given a different status from the separate ovum and sperm.
    Last edited by harpy; Jan 4th, 2011 at 12:05 PM. Reason: clarity

  10. #310

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    Dismissing other views as "silly" is not going to change anyone's mind, whereas explaining why those views are flawed might.

    In this instance, some people find it arbitrary (i.e. not rooted in a valid distinction) to give special status to a fertilised ovum but not to the ovum and sperm that went to make up that fertilised ovum. If you really wanted to convince these people otherwise, you'd have to explain logically why you feel the the fertilised ovum should be given a different status from the separate ovum and sperm.
    Exactly harpy. Cupid you have been very adept at dismissing others' views while being unwilling or unable to logically explain your own.

    Time to close the thread?

  11. #311
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    *hangs closed sign on door*

  12. #312
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    If you don't mind my saying so, we may have hit on the real reason you lost those earlier arguments with meat-eaters. Dismissing other views as "silly" is not going to change anyone's mind, whereas explaining why those views are flawed might.

    In this instance, some people find it arbitrary (i.e. not rooted in a valid distinction) to give special status to a fertilised ovum but not to the ovum and sperm that went to make up that fertilised ovum. If you really wanted to convince these people otherwise, you'd have to explain logically why you feel the the fertilised ovum should be given a different status from the separate ovum and sperm.
    Korn had a go at explaining why that particular view is flawed in post #104.

    Indeed it might have worked but obviously it didn't.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  13. #313
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    "Veganism is speceist against the plant domain Fiver."
    I don't agree.
    I have absolutely no idea how to explain why discriminating against different species is 'speciest' any further.
    You're the first vegan I've encountered who has said that.
    It had never occurred to me untill we started this dong-dong over speciesm either.

    It had crossed my mind that fruitarianism does not discriminate against plants before though.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  14. #314
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    You have the wrong definition of descrimination methinks. To be speciesist means you discriminate on the BASIS of species. Fiver's arguement is that we do not descriminate on the BASIS of species, but rather on the BASIS of ability to suffer. Which is why we wouldn't eat a plant if we learned it had the ability to suffer.

  15. #315
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    q

  16. #316
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    q
    I agree

  17. #317
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote snivelingchild View Post
    Fiver's arguement is that we do not descriminate on the BASIS of species, but rather on the BASIS of ability to suffer.
    If that were so then the basis of ability to suffer would be of paramount importance to the argument?

    The more important the ability to suffer is then the more acurately the ability to suffer would need to be established.

    The less important the ability to suffer than the less so.

    If the ability to suffer is REALLY important then no margin of error would be acceptable.

    Fiver has not yet argued that no margin of error is acceptable.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  18. #318
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    q
    I agree
    I don't agree ...

    That was the single worst argument of the topic so far!

    (A quick tutorial on the 'open-quote/close-quote' thing next time you're at mine, my sweetheart? )

    Anyone think Slack deserves a Sainthood on the basis that she is the only person currently walking the Earth who is saintly enough to put up with someone like me?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  19. #319
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Dunno about 'q', more like 'que?'. I've officially lost the plot of this thread! .

  20. #320
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    I don't agree ...
    I've gathered that And yes, I do agree. With the second thing, not the first

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Dunno about 'q', more like 'que?'. I've officially lost the plot of this thread! .
    Where'd we lose you?

  21. #321

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I had forgotten just how useful the "Ignore" button is!!!

  22. #322
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    I've gathered that And yes, I do agree. With the second thing, not the first



    Where'd we lose you?

    around about here ...........



    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    If that were so then the basis of ability to suffer would be of paramount importance to the argument?

    The more important the ability to suffer is then the more acurately the ability to suffer would need to be established.

    The less important the ability to suffer than the less so.

    If the ability to suffer is REALLY important then no margin of error would be acceptable.

    Fiver has not yet argued that no margin of error is acceptable.

  23. #323

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hey Cobweb, we posted at exactly the same time!!! And we got lost at exactly the same point in the discussion, methinks...

  24. #324
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    around about here ...........
    'Lo Cobbers, Fiamma,

    Vegans may have serious doubts about the ability of certain things to suffer, insects and molluscs for instance? (see post #245)

    Vegans accept no margin error over the ability of things to suffer so, despite serious doubts, we do not harm insects or molluscs.

    Is that agreed?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  25. #325
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    I had forgotten just how useful the "Ignore" button is!!!
    Yes...
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  26. #326
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Any chance of starting a thread about contraception, Cupid?

    LeedsVeg

  27. #327
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Any chance of starting a thread about contraception, Cupid?

    LeedsVeg
    And how it leads to Gandhi's second 'Deadly Sin' of 'Pleasure Without Conscience'?

    Mebbe, one day, yes.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  28. #328
    VagabondVegan
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Just debate the nature and origin of morality so you can question what makes people feel that something is so strongly right or wrong. That would be fun!!!

  29. #329
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "Vegans may have serious doubts about the ability of certain things to suffer, insects and molluscs for instance?"

    "Vegans accept no margin error over the ability of things to suffer so, despite serious doubts, we do not harm insects or molluscs."
    Cupid... I am concerned about lifeforms which have a mental life, a sense of self, which can experience pain, which have conscious interests in not being harmed. MORESO, those which are autonomous and can experience emotions and suffering in addition to pain. Those which have beliefs and desires. I believe that thwarting and damaging the interests of such beings and exploiting them does an INJUSTICE to them, as I believe in the value of the individual and their positive and negative experiences. We have already spoken of the significance of specific anatomical features - the brain, nervous system, synapses etc.. in enabling these things. Also, the impossibility of drawing a conclusive LINE.

    I am inclined to give soon-to-be-born and newly-born mammals the benefit of the doubt, per my earlier comments. Also, molluscs and insects. Even if I have to acknowledge that in doing so I may be giving some of these lifeforms more than they are due. This is the limit of my erring on the side of caution: If a lifeform doesn't have a sufficiently developed brain or nervous system then I'm not convinced it can be wronged or have moral status, even if it is an animal. I told you before that I don't play favourites with any particular species.

  30. #330
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I haven't read all the posts here yet, but a short notice about the original question, "Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?".

    First of all, it may be a bit contra-productive to have a thread which cover both abortion, the day-after-pill and more, because these topics seem very different. If "pro life" also means a no to using the day-after pill, based on eg. general respect for human life as such, or eg. religious viewpoints - these topics shouldn't, IMO, be mixed up with the definition of vegan. The definition of 'vegan', or the vegan movement, never insisted that sperm which has entered a human egg is to be considered a human. I don't belong to any spiritual or religious communities, and frankly know nothing about what their views on a one day old embryo is - but imagine that someone who insists on the existence of reincarnation heard theories about when a soul enters a new human being. Is it when the sperm enters the egg? Is it after 6 weeks? 10 weeks? Three months? Their birthday?

    Since the actual birthday of a human is dependent on a lot of factors, including some we don't know much about, I doubt that eg. Hindus or Buddhists insist that the new incarnation happens on the babies' birthdays. And this time I'm not only saying 'pardon my English', but pardon all of the above, because I don't know what I'm talking about.

    If a religious person feels/thinks/assumes/believes that reincarnation happens the moment sperm enters an egg, it's easy to understand a resistance against the 'day after' pill. But there are no hidden theories baked into the word 'vegan', so it doesn't contain a definition of when vegans consider a human life as 'started'. The term 'vegan' doesn't have a view on this.

    Since 'vegan' doesn't contain such a formula, there's really no way to claim that users of morning-after pills aren't vegans. This would actually be true even if all vegans would be against both abortion and against morning-after pill - and as we know, they aren't.

    This thread has to some degree transformed itself into a thread about abortion/about when a fertilized egg should be considered a human/about when an unborn human should be defended against abortion/and maybe about morning-after pills... and more. We could have separate threads about all these topics, and everything in between - except one thing: the definition of a vegan as one which contains a sub-definition suggesting that all vegans have similar views on abortion. If this definition would exist, we'd have to ban a few thousand members, and if we did, there wouldn't be a need for the thread, so....

    This is a forum for vegans. I consider the thread to be about abortion. We don't ban members for defending current abortion laws, or even be clearly pro abortion, or for suggesting that all abortions should be legal, always, in all countries. If we/someone/I would insist that being against abortion is a requirement for 'deserving' the vegan status, forums for vegans would of course had banned everyone who posted arguments pro use of abortion; they wouldn't have been vegan with such viewpoints. We would even have to let go of a few thousand members if this would have been the case.

    Abortion related topics are important, but the above, to me, represents an 'end-of-discussion'-ish view - in terms of whether vegans always are 'pro life', which IMO is what the thread title is about. Vegans aren't always 'pro life', as confirmed by (the existence of) this thread, so IMHO we're better off with a thread/threads about the other topics I mentioned.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  31. #331
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    I agree
    LOL ...

  32. #332
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    I don't agree ...

    That was the single worst argument of the topic so far!

    (A quick tutorial on the 'open-quote/close-quote' thing next time you're at mine, my sweetheart? )

    Anyone think Slack deserves a Sainthood on the basis that she is the only person currently walking the Earth who is saintly enough to put up with someone like me?
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  33. #333
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Dunno about 'q', more like 'que?'. I've officially lost the plot of this thread! .
    How much less exhausting if the answer to this argument really was just Q..bit like the meaning of life being 42.

  34. #334
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    How much less exhausting if the answer to this argument really was just Q..bit like the meaning of life being 42.
    Hiya Slack

    I like what Joanne Stepaniak says in her book Being Vegan: "Because vegans do not share a uniform position on abortion, there is no 'official stance'. This matter is best resolved by individual practitioners in the context of their personal perspectives or spiritual beliefs.'

    Aren't you and I glad that we (mostly) stayed out of the thread?!

    Leedsveg

  35. #335
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hiya Slack

    ...

    Aren't you and I glad that we (mostly) stayed out of the thread?!

    Leedsveg
    No LV ...

    Slack is very much NOT glad that she has (mostly) stayed out of this thread. Slack is actualy very upset that her multiple attempts (post #43, and more) to have her own voice heard in this thread have failed as Slack knows the other side of this ugly subject absolutely first hand.

    Slack is also very much NOT happy that she is losing our 'bet' as to what people are really interested in; People who actualy know first hand what they are talking about (her) or people (like me) who take that exact same first hand knowledge (hers) and use it .. errrrrr .. shall we just say 'differently'?

    And on that note a very much not happy Slack and myself are off to watch TV.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  36. #336
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    not being rude but that ^ is bollocks .

    Slack Alice has had, and still does have, EVERY opportunity to speak up, it's not that hard to post on here (no offence Slack!), and maybe people would want to read if she posted *actual* posts on this thread (she manages in other threads and isn't usually ignored!).

    YOU started this thread, YOU chose it's direction, and YOU have been very, very vocal here, so please don't do the underdog thing.

    I have never made it a secret that I too have first hand knowledge of this 'ugly' subject, in fact I rarely discuss anything much in depth or with any conviction unless I have some first hand experience of the topic matter (that's pretty much my Golden Rule in life).

    I for one am very interested to hear people's personal opinions, not opinions which just form part of the basis of someone's religion or general philosophy. When people speak of things they have truly experienced it becomes a lot more engaging to me, personally speaking.
    I haven't seen much of that kind of talk on this thread atall actually .

  37. #337
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Aren't you and I glad that we (mostly) stayed out of the thread?
    Message to all

    I sincerely wish that I had not put the above sentence in my previous posting but I did, it caused offence and that's the last thing I would have wanted. I'm sorry. I've sent a pm to Slack Alice and if Slack Alice can agree, I would prefer if the matter could be considered 'over'. This is a nice friendly forum and I'd love for it to stay that way.

    Ian (Leedsveg)

  38. #338
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I for one am very interested to hear people's personal opinions, not opinions which just form part of the basis of someone's religion or general philosophy.
    I often think like this as well. But sometimes I also remind myself that people who have voluntarily chosen a 'package' of thoughts, feelings and viewpoints (which is what philosophies and religions often are) often choose the package which matches how they think and feel. If the match is, say, 90%, it may be very tempting to think and feel 'why just accept the remaining 10%'.

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    It never fails to amaze and sadden me that one of the most relevant voices in the great abortion debate ...the voice of women who have had abortions and as a result become anti-abortionists is perpetually silenced or discounted.
    If this happens, maybe it's due to some kind of 'thought fashion'. Maybe it's considered un-modern, old-fashioned or conservative to declare that one is anti-abortion, which is why everybody here should speak out without any hesitation. <- [I corrected this sentence, because I initially wrote 'the minority'... I forgot that the poll isn't about abortion, but - as I see it - about whether a certain viewpoint about whatever is covered by 'pro life' necessarily is something that's always part of being vegan.]

    Especially as a male, I totally agree that the viewpoints of women who have had abortions and as a result become anti-abortionists are highly relevant and should not in any way be silenced. The same goes for people who work in the clinics.

    In this thread, many topics seem to be interwoven in a confusing way. A claim that can be interpreted as there's no need to consider going vegan for people who don't (always) identify with the "pro life" message would end up.... wrong. So I hope it's OK to close the thread soon, and start new ones instead.

    I've seen how some of our old threads about topics which touch this one - or topics that have anything to do with religion/beliefs have developed. Based on most posts in this thread, I'm actually starting to believe that it's possible (even on internet) to disagree strongly and still be civil, or at least pretend to!
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  39. #339
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    not being rude but that ^ is bollocks .
    LV obviously thinks that how Slack feels is not bollocks, Cobbers, and neither do I.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  40. #340
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    LV obviously thinks that how Slack feels is not bollocks, Cobbers, and neither do I.
    Why do you twist everything?. C'mon, did you really think that's what I said?. My point is that she hasn't really said anything much, despite having the chance (like everyone else) to do so.
    I have nothing personal against either of you, I just don't like to see you sulking when there's no reason to sulk !.

  41. #341
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    q
    Quote SlackAlice View Post
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    ^ this is what I was thinking of...............if 'Slack Alice' has something to add to the debate I don't understand why she didn't/doesn't..............anyway who said she wasn't welcome or being heard here?. I always read her posts for one, I'm sure lots of people do, and of course everyone is entitled to add to the debate.

  42. #342
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    If this happens, maybe it's due to some kind of 'thought fashion'. Maybe it's considered un-modern, old-fashioned or conservative to declare that one is anti-abortion ...
    'Lo Korn

    Not an entirely dissimilar experience to being the only vegan at the annual butchers barbeque, I would have said.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  43. #343
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    ^ this is what I was thinking of...............if 'Slack Alice' has something to add to the debate I don't understand why she didn't/doesn't..............anyway who said she wasn't welcome or being heard here?. I always read her posts for one, I'm sure lots of people do, and of course everyone is entitled to add to the debate.
    Just between me and you Cobbers ...

    I tried to post what Slack was trying to post. I simply couldn't and I'm as 'ard as nails.

    No one at this end has the got the cob with anyone, btw, it's just been a difficult night.

    We're off to bed. Tommorows another day. G'night all.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  44. #344
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Ok, it's obviously a very personal decision, whether or not to share intimate thoughts and experiences, especially on a forum. I think I might have a very good idea of the kind of thing Slack wanted to say but couldn't (yes, 20 years on and I have a ghost's birthday coming up in February which will still get to me ).

    Sorry if I was being insensitive. I still believe that if Slack had chosen to post about her own experiences, she would not have been disrespected by anyone here, or made to feel that her thoughts weren't welcome.

    I also agree with Korn that this thread is messy, too may topics are mashed together, and it's all become a bit emotive. And I can never resist getting involved, can I? .

  45. #345
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    Especially as a male, I totally agree that the viewpoints of women who have had abortions and as a result become anti-abortionists are highly relevant and should not in any way be silenced.
    I don't really see that they are silenced, either in this case or in general. I have read and heard (a range of) opinions and thoughts elsewhere from people who have had abortions. Personally, I don't believe their experiences of abortion make their opinions on its morality any more valid than anyone else's (unless perhaps the experiences brought new facts to light), but they are certainly no less valid.

    (Of course, we don't actually know who in this thread has had experience of abortion; there is no particular reason to mention it when discussing the morality of abortion, and some people may choose not to.)

    I for one would be certainly interested to read your opinions and/or experiences, Alice. Perhaps you could post them in your own time if you still would like to, and start a new thread (e.g. in the women's area of the forum) if you feel that would be better, so that people will be in sympathetic/listening mode rather than controversy mode.

  46. #346
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Good idea Harpy.
    I was thinking earlier that we really don't know who has/hasn't had a pregnancy terminated so it's impossible to judge why and how people come to their own conclusions (unless they explain, obviously!).
    I didn't see anyone being silenced here atall, which is why I got cross at the notion being put forward that it had happened or would happen.

    I don't see how this topic can be likened to being the only vegan at a butcher's barbecue, either, because I also don't actually see how anyone can be strictly 'pro' or 'anti' abortion. Surely each and every case is unique?. I don't actually think anyone can be 'pro' abortion, some people might agree (as I do) that it should remain a legal, clinical option, but that doesn't make them 'pro' abortion in the sense that they are 'all for' abortions .

    Sad things happen. Unfortunately we have to deal with them .
    Aint nothing sadder than an unwanted, unloved child growing up wishing they'd never been born atall. Sometimes nasty things are the lesser of the evils.

  47. #347
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I for one am very interested to hear people's personal opinions, not opinions which just form part of the basis of someone's religion or general philosophy. When people speak of things they have truly experienced it becomes a lot more engaging to me, personally speaking.
    I haven't seen much of that kind of talk on this thread at all actually .[/QUOTE]

    That drew me back in.
    My own experiences and those of close friends and family, have put pieces of a puzzle together in my mind: how people confuse destiny with reality.

    Remember the family of Chinese origin who sued for the loss of their pension support when their young son had been killed in an accident? It was the son's cultural destiny to provide for his parents. A genuine grieving loss but was the money ever real?

    Remember the gal who tried to fight for the rights of her frozen embryos to be implanted rather than discarded when her partner changed his mind?

    These and other media cases were still twirling unresolved in my head when a dear women expressed to me her deep sadness at the baby girl she never had: 2 boys and the third pregnancy turned out to be beginning menopause. Her 'daughter' she sees now at about kindergarten age.

    At an ultrasound, the doctor remarked that he sees the tiny embryos as children playing as his do. I commented back that it must make it hard for him too when it is shown not to be viable. I can't describe his look in answer.

    That then reminded me of the mom who still and hardly secretly mourns for the perfect child she did not have. Physically, the child looks normal but would never be the loving caring bright and happy child she dreamt of.

    Shall I mention the neighbor who mourns the loss of grandchildren when a drunk-driver killed her only son?

    All that above to helped me figure out why I felt guilty for not feeling guilty about the end of an unwanted pregnancy. I felt that something must be less sympathetic about me for not valuing a potential but unreal life. Some people see the future to be destiny, I don't. I deeply sympathize with folks who mourn for a loss, real or unreal or imagined. Pain is real.

    So, I am settled now in my view, unconflicted. An egg, a sperm, an embryo is a potential only. If I gave them more than that then I would follow on and say that prisoners wives must be allowed access to procreate as their uncreated children have rights too. I would feel obliged to use my faultier embryos during IVF. I may have also been convinced to shun contraception by my 1st boyfriend, Polish Catholic, who believed to give life (procreate) is our duty.

    Where to draw the line? Seeing as experience has taught me distrust of authority, I put my faith in women only to decide for themselves. For if we start counting separate interests of a pregnant women then also her decisions regarding OBcare and delivery of her baby will be in jeopardy. Oh yes, we have heard it happen. I pictured myself tethered down to a bed for 6mo forced to bring a premie into the world from my ectopic (cervical) pregnancy. I don't have to like a womens decisions but I respect her right to choose, always.

    And for some of the more off-hand comments blaming women for getting knocked up, consider: had I chosen a less reliable method than IUD back then, I likely wouldn't have had the fertility issues I faced and therefore the 3 kids I hoped for instead of just the 1 we are grateful to have. Pro-Life in there somewhere?
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  48. #348
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Not an entirely dissimilar experience to being the only vegan at the annual butchers barbeque, I would have said.
    The difference here is that you're so not alone about your viewpoint that 18% even suggest that 'pro life' should be considered a part of being vegan. The number of 'pro life' voters would probably have been higher if the question was 'pro'/'con' abortion instead of pro/con seeing 'pro life' as a part of the definition of vegan.

    Slack Alice has written that she feels that she is being constantly silenced and pushed into the background with her viewpoints, but not necessarily that this happened on this forum. What CS wrote was about whether her voice was being heard in this thread - which is different from being silenced. And even if she feels that she hasn't been heard, she may have by heard by a lot of our visitors and members.

    A woman who have had an abortion, and is being told by someone that they did something wrong can't be expected to not be emotional about it. This is true the other way around as well. And since we're not only discussing scientific data, but what humans feel about abortion, I think any discussion involving different viewpoints on abortion will mean an emotional aspect, including some feelings which may not match reality.

    The women who told me that she changed her view on abortion after having worked in an abortion clinic, regularly seeing 12 week old fetuses (they were sometimes up to 18 weeks old) being aborted, appeared to me as she was almost afraid of being disliked for hew viewpoints, because most people are 'pro choice'. Maybe she've had situations where she felt 'silenced' as well, even if she wasn't.

    There are some who are against abortion in more or less all cases, but still defend a women's right to choose if she shall have an abortion or not (up to the fetus has reached a certain age) - due to the dilemma with what can happen in illegal abortions, which at least can be very dramatic. So - to avoid confusion - if any of you consider starting a new thread related to abortion, I hope the title will be as detailed/specific as possible.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  49. #349
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    The difference here is that you're so not alone about your viewpoint that 18% even suggest that 'pro life' should be considered a part of being vegan. The number of 'pro life' voters would probably have been higher if the question was 'pro'/'con' abortion instead of pro/con seeing 'pro life' as a part of the definition of vegan.

    Slack Alice has written that she feels that she is being constantly silenced and pushed into the background with her viewpoints, but not necessarily that this happened on this forum. What CS wrote was about whether her voice was being heard in this thread - which is different from being silenced. And even if she feels that she hasn't been heard, she may have by heard by a lot of our visitors and members.

    A woman who have had an abortion, and is being told by someone that they did something wrong can't be expected to not be emotional about it. This is true the other way around as well. And since we're not only discussing scientific data, but what humans feel about abortion, I think any discussion involving different viewpoints on abortion will mean an emotional aspect, including some feelings which may not match reality.

    The women who told me that she changed her view on abortion after having worked in an abortion clinic, regularly seeing 12 week old fetuses (they were sometimes up to 18 weeks old) being aborted, appeared to me as she was almost afraid of being disliked for hew viewpoints, because most people are 'pro choice'. Maybe she've had situations where she felt 'silenced' as well, even if she wasn't.

    There are some who are against abortion in more or less all cases, but still defend a women's right to choose if she shall have an abortion or not (up to the fetus has reached a certain age) - due to the dilemma with what can happen in illegal abortions, which at least can be very dramatic. So - to avoid confusion - if any of you consider starting a new thread related to abortion, I hope the title will be as detailed/specific as possible.
    Good morning Korn, everyone

    I got into work this morning half sleep following a fitful night of no sleep but ample amounts of thinking. I read the posts and wanted desperately to reply to them but dont have the time as I am surrounded by mountains of paperwork!

    Hopefully I will get chance to respond tonight but in the meantime I would like to thank you for taking the trouble to read and respond.

  50. #350
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    There are some who are against abortion in more or less all cases, but still defend a women's right to choose if she shall have an abortion or not (up to the fetus has reached a certain age) - due to the dilemma with what can happen in illegal abortions, which at least can be very dramatic. So - to avoid confusion - if any of you consider starting a new thread related to abortion, I hope the title will be as detailed/specific as possible.
    That describes my view perfectly.

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