View Poll Results: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

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    62 77.50%
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    14 17.50%
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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #351
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post
    The difference here is that you're so not alone about your viewpoint that 18% even suggest that 'pro life' should be considered a part of being vegan. The number of 'pro life' voters would probably have been higher if the question was 'pro'/'con' abortion instead of pro/con seeing 'pro life' as a part of the definition of vegan.
    Jeez! I didn't even think of checking the poll Korn ..

    18% is high. Particularly considering, as you rightly say, that a differently worded question may have produced an even higher pro-life vote.

    As regards silencing people:

    I think you are correct that fear of unpopularity is a major factor in that and I would absolutely 100% agree that no one has done that intentionaly. I would actualy go as as far as to say that those who fear unpopularity have only themselves to blame if they 'chicken out', as it were.

    Not directly related to this topic but something that REALLY makes my blood boil: It has not escaped my attention on other topics that many vegans often back down from defending veganism due to 'social pressures/courtesies and generaly "not wanting to cause offence".

    A woman who have had an abortion, and is being told by someone that they did something wrong can't be expected to not be emotional about it. This is true the other way around as well.
    A little 'twist' on that, if I may ...

    It is sheer idiocy to believe that we live in a world where a woman who has aborted will not be told/come to suspect/doubt that she did something wrong.

    The importance of a woman knowing the full strength of the guilt/regrets/whatever (whether externaly introduced or internaly arising) that she may experience is absolutely paramount.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  2. #352
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    It is sheer idiocy to believe that we live in a world where a woman who has aborted will not be told/come to suspect/doubt that she did something wrong.
    I know this for sure!. I was told once, by a (now ex) member of THIS forum, that having done this evil thing in the past (and regretting it ever since) it's absolutely my own 'fault' that I later gave birth to a disabled (Autistic) child (my second pregnancy) .

  3. #353
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    All that above to helped me figure out why I felt guilty for not feeling guilty about the end of an unwanted pregnancy. I felt that something must be less sympathetic about me for not valuing a potential but unreal life. Some people see the future to be destiny, I don't. I deeply sympathize with folks who mourn for a loss, real or unreal or imagined. Pain is real.
    I agree with this - some people feel guilty, others don't, depending on their own viewpoint and so forth. Unfortunately it's easy to be made to feel guilty about not feeling guilty, as you say, by other people.

    As a kind of parallel, I wasn't able to have children, and at one point I was undergoing fertility investigations and (some) treatment and starting to feel quite desperate. Then I realised that a lot of the desperation came from internalising then-current stereotypes etc about infertile people being being desperate and willing to try anything. Once I identified that, I realised that not having children wasn't a tragedy for me, it was just one of the various things in life that you want and can't have. (Obviously I feel sorry for people to whom it is a tragedy but I think it's unfortunate the way society puts pressure on people to have feelings that they don't.)

  4. #354
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Harpy, you talk a lot of sense.

  5. #355
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I know this for sure!. I was told once, by a (now ex) member of THIS forum, that having done this evil thing in the past (and regretting it ever since) it's absolutely my own 'fault' that I later gave birth to a disabled (Autistic) child (my second pregnancy) .
    Oh dear ...

    I don't doubt for one minute that you were (and still are) bright enough to know that that was a load of cobblers Cobbers. That could have really hurt someone with a messed up view of what 'karma' is though.

    And at risk of stirring a pot that seems to not need stirring now, may I ask you the same very sensitive question that I had to ask Slack last night?

    Do you think you would regret your 'event' (more/less/not at all) if you could have had the exact same child that you were carrying then at a later time?

    For clarification; Would it have been, would it be, easier for you if instead of having to have been terminated that that particular pregnancy could have actualy just been 'postponed'?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  6. #356
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    And almost completely off-topic; The saddest "exactly how karma does NOT work" karma story I ever ever heard ...

    A Malaysian couple gave birth to an armadillo. On the very reasonable basis that as humans do not usualy give birth to armadillos there must have been a reason why such a thing had happened now. The reason was deduced that this coupl must have killed and eaten an armidillo. That them having giving life to an armadillo was their 'karma' for having taken the life of one.

    The Malaysian buddhist who told me this would not knowingly nor carelessly lie. Of that I am 1,000,000% sure. So why he had told me that patently obvious pile of bollox played very heavily on my mind.

    Took days for the penny to drop. That couple must been one of the however many in however many million it is that give birth to a 'Harlequin' child.

    One simple piece of missing information + an oversimplified view of karma .. the suffering thereby caused to that couple (who almost certainly had not killed an armidillo) must have been immense
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  7. #357
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    For clarification; Would it have been, would it be, easier for you if instead of having to have been terminated that that particular pregnancy could have actualy just been 'postponed'?
    and while we're at it... if you were stranded on a desert island, would you eat meat? I'm sorry, but what a ridiculous question.
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  8. #358
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Korn View Post

    Slack Alice has written that she feels that she is being constantly silenced and pushed into the background with her viewpoints, but not necessarily that this happened on this forum. What CS wrote was about whether her voice was being heard in this thread - which is different from being silenced. And even if she feels that she hasn't been heard, she may have by heard by a lot of our visitors and members.

    A woman who have had an abortion, and is being told by someone that they did something wrong can't be expected to not be emotional about it. This is true the other way around as well. And since we're not only discussing scientific data, but what humans feel about abortion, I think any discussion involving different viewpoints on abortion will mean an emotional aspect, including some feelings which may not match reality.

    The women who told me that she changed her view on abortion after having worked in an abortion clinic, regularly seeing 12 week old fetuses (they were sometimes up to 18 weeks old) being aborted, appeared to me as she was almost afraid of being disliked for hew viewpoints, because most people are 'pro choice'. Maybe she've had situations where she felt 'silenced' as well, even if she wasn't.

    I have followed this thread page by page and post by post , I have also spent more hours than I care to admit to discussing individual posts and viewpoints with Cupid. The reason that I have contributed so many 'cryptically empty' posts is that each one started as a long emotive post about my personal experience of abortion. I deleted each one in anticipation of being charged with using emotive language or being off topic which at most points I would indeed have been. Most of the discussion has indeed been focused on scientific data and any attempt to take it into any area remotely emotional or uncomfortable seems to have been (excuse the pun) aborted. I didnt have any scientific data or new research all I had was my experience and it was ugly.


    For me any debate of abortion HAS to be emotive. How can it be otherwise?

    We are Vegans. We spend half our lifes defending the rights of animals. We open our eyes to the truth and the pain even when we would rather cover them because its too ugly to bear. We acknowledge not only scientific data but also personal accounts of activists covertly working in slaughterhouses. We do not question their agenda, accuse them of emotional blackmail or feverish band together to discredit their stories.

    But when we discuss the abortion of our own kind we by-pass this respect. We deem them 'parasites' when in fact we have often left an open door for them to wander in. We work very hard to keep our eyes tightly shut. We swamp the argument with scientific data and rush forward to dismiss or discredit first hand accounts of clinic staff or clinic training manuals . The rights we focus on here are pre-dominately our own.

    Shame and guilt are what initially keeps women like me silent . What keeps them silent later is a dive bombing by pro-lifers who accuse them of being everything from hypocrites to 'bible bashers'.

    This is my experience of attempting to relay my personal experience on various forums in the past and the reason that I have held back from sharing on this one. If I have wrongly pre-judged the reaction to the posting of personal abortion stories on this forum then I sincerely apologise. I must admit the posts I have read today certainly suggest that I have.

    Slack Alice

  9. #359
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I will answer the question put to me as best I can:
    I see every life as 'unique' and I believe every living thing has a soul, therefore, no, that scenario would be of no comfort atall.
    I don't follow a specific religion but I did used to attend a Spiritualist Church. For what it's worth I was told that unborn souls pass to 'The Other Side' and grow there. A lot of people will think that's a crock of shit but it helps me.

  10. #360
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Gah, double post, forum keeps doing this to me atm!!

  11. #361
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Slack Alice I really do see what you're saying, but speaking as a vegan (by that I mean with veganism in mind as I speak) I would say that there are 2 differences in defending the rights of animals, and defending the rights of unborn humans -
    1) Animals just don't have the ability to make informed choices, and they are not given the right to make any choices about their own lives.
    2) Humans have to make choices and decisions based on their 'superior' knowledge and (hopefully) informed consent.
    Plus, I can't help but think that whilst we have so many problems with all the animals and humans who are alive at this present moment, we can't properly start dealing with the possible injustices served to those who are unborn .

  12. #362
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I will answer the question put to me as best I can:
    I see every life as 'unique' and I believe every living thing has a soul, therefore, no, that scenario would be of no comfort at all.
    Do you think that if you didn't believe in souls that your regret would be less?

    To be more specific, if you were 100% certain that there was no such thing as a souls, would you still regret it as much, or more, or less?

    Like would the uniqueness of the lost life alone have still been enough?

    Your answers, alongside things Slack has explained, are helping me greatly with something my tortured mind is currently involved in a no-holds barred wrestling match with, btw.

    I don't follow a specific religion but I did used to attend a Spiritualist Church. For what it's worth I was told that unborn souls pass to 'The Other Side' and grow there. A lot of people will think that's a crock of shit but it helps me.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  13. #363
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I think I might have a very good idea of the kind of thing Slack wanted to say but couldn't (yes, 20 years on and I have a ghost's birthday coming up in February which will still get to me ).

    .
    From this sentence alone I know that you have a very good idea indeed cobweb...I thought that just happened to me.

  14. #364
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Message to all

    I sincerely wish that I had not put the above sentence in my previous posting but I did, it caused offence and that's the last thing I would have wanted. I'm sorry. I've sent a pm to Slack Alice and if Slack Alice can agree, I would prefer if the matter could be considered 'over'. This is a nice friendly forum and I'd love for it to stay that way.

    Ian (Leedsveg)
    Nothing to apologise for leeds ,you couldnt have known the full impact the thread was having on me. I appreciate your concern and your pm. And I will be more than happy to leave it to lie as I have no wish to come to blows with you or anywhere else on the forum

    Although....I do have a mean right hook

  15. #365
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I would probably regret what I did less if I absolutely didn't believe in souls. As it is I believe every single baby is born with not only a soul but a pre-determined personality.

    ..........and Slack Alice, yes it's tough, isn't it, I don't generally dwell on it but it never completely vanishes .

  16. #366
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I know this for sure!. I was told once, by a (now ex) member of THIS forum, that having done this evil thing in the past (and regretting it ever since) it's absolutely my own 'fault' that I later gave birth to a disabled (Autistic) child (my second pregnancy) .
    I have a friend who gave birth to a son several years after going through a particularly nasty late abortion. Her son was born with a foot deformity and learning difficulties which both her mother and herself attributed to her 'punishment' for having an abortion. I thought that she would move from that position later but she never did and is still convinced that this is the case to this day. Completely irrational of course, but to her very real.

  17. #367
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    and while we're at it... if you were stranded on a desert island, would you eat meat? I'm sorry, but what a ridiculous question.
    Bear with me on that one ...

    FWIW, I had an abortion at 5 weeks when I was 22 years old... old enough to know better, but too young (mentally, personally) to raise a child. I do not regret the decision. That child/person would have been put through hell. I could go on and on explaining my background, the specific situation, etc etc etc.... but it doesn't matter. It's not the point. It was necessary. If abortion wasn't legal, I would have gone to desperate measures to rid myself of that pregnancy.
    Then nothing that may have changed some one elses mind would have changed yours at that time Ruby.

    All that means is that what could have been said to Slack (possibly to Cobbers) would have done you neither good nor harm.

    Do you think that something that could have been said to Slack (possibly to Cobbers) that would have spared her (them) terrible regrets should not have then, or now, be said?

    I do think you're onto something with your point about making sure very side of the topic is explored before making such an important decision... the same is true with any important decision.
    Would be interested in your answer to the above in the light of that Ruby.

    I honestly do not understand how you can say you're "pro-life" after telling the story of your daughter. You lost me there. You told the story from a pro-choice perspective... as though you were just giving her the other side of the story and would be fine with her decision if she had chosen to abort. I know this is a sensitive subject, esp considering you now have a grandchild out of it... I just don't understand your "pro-choice/pro-life" stance... and said cobweb was sitting on the fence.
    Being genuinely pro-choice (not the feck everyones choice but MINE! MINE MINE! flavour 'pro'-choice) saved my grand daughters life Ruby.

    Being genuinely pro-choice is essential, not contradictory, to being genuinely pro-life so far as I can see.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  18. #368
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post

    I for one would be certainly interested to read your opinions and/or experiences, Alice. Perhaps you could post them in your own time if you still would like to, and start a new thread (e.g. in the women's area of the forum) if you feel that would be better, so that people will be in sympathetic/listening mode rather than controversy mode.
    Thanks harpy
    thats a good idea I will most certainly follow up later but at the moment its all a bit raw again.

  19. #369
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Do you think that something that could have been said to Slack (possibly to Cobbers) that would have spared her (them) terrible regrets should not have then, or now, be said?

    Would be interested in your answer to the above in the light of that Ruby.
    my answer was given in light of that... in fact it was given in the same post.

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Being genuinely pro-choice is essential, not contradictory, to being genuinely pro-life so far as I can see.
    still lost. sorry.

    I'm with you in the idea that people shouldn't be bullied in either direction, and that all information should be out there on both sides... but the pro-choice pro-life position escapes me... unless you're just saying that when someone knows all sides the only choice is life???... (which is a tad close-minded).
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  20. #370
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    How many people here believe in a 'just universe'?
    (either that god/nature/the natural world actively intervenes in human affairs to punish injustices and/or teach people moral lessons OR that natural events can conceivably be attributed to actions in the past)

    How many people here believe that animals (and other living things?) have a soul?
    (in the spiritual sense? regardless of age, eg. including at conception RATHER than seeing mind as a product of body)

  21. #371
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I believe it doesn't matter what I believe, I'm probably wrong. And why would it change what I do?

    Another thing I have a problem with is the idea of a unique life: I may now be a unique life but I didn't start out that way; I was a unique molecule of DNA.
    Knowing twins will tell you there is a big difference there. So many arbitrary and wonderful and unpredicted turns on the road from that amazing molecule, make us who we are.
    I see a myriad of potential in that one unique molecule but not one single destined uniqueness.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

  22. #372
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote pat sommer View Post
    I believe it doesn't matter what I believe, I'm probably wrong. And why would it change what I do?

    Another thing I have a problem with is the idea of a unique life: I may now be a unique life but I didn't start out that way; I was a unique molecule of DNA.
    Knowing twins will tell you there is a big difference there. So many arbitrary and wonderful and unpredicted turns on the road from that amazing molecule, make us who we are.
    I see a myriad of potential in that one unique molecule but not one single destined uniqueness.

    well that's my logic aswell really, but by the time a child is born they certainly seem to be very much unique and have their own personality, which actually suprised me a bit when I had my son as I thought a personality would form from that time, if you see what I mean..........

  23. #373
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    How many people here believe in a 'just universe'?
    (either that god/nature/the natural world actively intervenes in human affairs to punish injustices and/or teach people moral lessons OR that natural events can conceivably be attributed to actions in the past)

    How many people here believe that animals (and other living things?) have a soul?
    (in the spiritual sense? regardless of age, eg. including at conception RATHER than seeing mind as a product of body)

    I believe in both of those positions. I have reason to think that scenario one isn't logical/scientific, but I still believe it, right or wrong.

  24. #374
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    CS, I would definitely have gone through with my first pregnancy had I received one iota of support. I was a teenager, my 'boyfriend' (who I later realised was abusive but I had too little experience to know at the time) said that he would pay for 'my mistake' to get sorted out, and my (then) GP immediately offered to refer me to the clinic, no discussion . Obviously I hadn't planned the pregnancy but I do remember feeling excited but terrified - until other people got involved and told me it had to end.

    My parents didn't even know as they have never been supportive so there was no point telling them, and when I confided in my brother he told me I was a stupid bitch .

    I was never given any information about even the procedure, I only found out years afterwards. I do remember a woman at the time having a very late one and having her labour induced which was pretty dramatic and terrifying .

  25. #375
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    ,


    I was never given any information about even the procedure, I only found out years afterwards. I do remember a woman at the time having a very late one and having her labour induced which was pretty dramatic and terrifying .

    Nor me cobweb...

    I spoke to my own GP who asked me why I wanted an abortion and because I was too ashamed to admit the real reason I said 'financial difficulties' she nodded , signed something and the next day I was rushed off to a second GP. He barely looked at me, asked me yes and no questions and ticked his boxes I was there about five minutes. Next stop was the clinic two days later ..same again. Signed in, boxes ticked and the next thing I am on a ward waiting for my turn.

    No discussion, no explaination of procedure just a big rush to get me 'done' quickly because, as everyone kept stressing I was near the significant twelve weeks into my pregnancy.

    The thing I remember most is the sense of urgency, well that, and being completely unsupported. My partner drove at break neck speed to the clinic without uttering a word terrified that I would speak up to tell him I had changed my mind.

    I too would have gone through with my pregnancy if any one person in the senario had offered me support or a chance to talk.

    Presumably the 'urgency' is not incidental..

    I remember another girl on the ward (about 17) sobbing her heart out saying she wasnt sure she wanted this, being hushed by nurses and told 'its last minute nerves because you are having to wait..nearly your turn now dont worry' No one attempted to take her to one side and talk to her about her change of decision, she was just left crying on the bed. Strangely I remember that none of us comforted her either, I have often wondered since why not as my natural instinct is always to comfort . All I can think is that we were all holding on by a thread to our own emotions and couldnt risk falling to bits along with her.

  26. #376
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Thanks harpy
    thats a good idea I will most certainly follow up later but at the moment its all a bit raw again.
    Harpy, thanks again for your concern and I know it is geniune but...having just re-read the post I have realised the implications of posting in the womens area. Am I right in thinking that men are forbidden (or at least discouraged) from contributing to this area?

    That would mean that men would be excluded from a debate which surely belongs to them as much as it does to us?

  27. #377
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yep, I went into a private clinic and they barely spoke to me, just took the money and basically I got shoved onto the production line. Because I had my own little business at the time I left as soon as I could and rushed back to work that afternoon so that nobody would know. The one little thing I had asked my boyfriend to do was get me some cakes from the bakery to have that evening but he forgot . He had to pay for the procedure as he was earning 10 times as much as I was, I think he thought he'd done the tough bit .

  28. #378
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    my answer was given in light of that... in fact it was given in the same post.
    Ok, thanks, Ruby

    still lost. sorry.

    I'm with you in the idea that people shouldn't be bullied in either direction, and that all information should be out there on both sides... but the pro-choice pro-life position escapes me... unless you're just saying that when someone knows all sides the only choice is life???... (which is a tad close-minded).
    The full answer to that has more facets to it than there are stars in the sky or sands on the beach (heh! I'm waxing lyrical!) Ruby.

    One of the myriad of simple answers that may shed light was given by Mother Theresa (I posted it earlier?) when she said to the effect of "we have to teach people (mothers and fathers) to love untill it hurts".

    To teach people to love until it hurts they kinda have to see that you are willing to love them untill it hurts you?

    Yes it hurts when you are pro-life to 'counsel' from a pro-'choice' position but people kinda see something in you that they want very badly to have in themselves when you love them enough to do that for them.

    I'm pretty sure that everyone who has ever loved will agree with this ..

    When you love untill it hurts the pain is disconcertingly close to, if not actualy, pleasurable.

    My belief, my understanding, is that when people feel the need to love until it hurts then, yes, life is the only choice that is possible.

    We (genuine pro-lifers) have to accept failure though and we have to accept that abortion (the 'war' of mother against child) will only end when no one actualy wants one.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  29. #379
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    CS, I would definitely have gone through with my first pregnancy had I received one iota of support. I was a teenager, my 'boyfriend' (who I later realised was abusive but I had too little experience to know at the time) said that he would pay for 'my mistake' to get sorted out, and my (then) GP immediately offered to refer me to the clinic, no discussion . Obviously I hadn't planned the pregnancy but I do remember feeling excited but terrified - until other people got involved and told me it had to end.

    My parents didn't even know as they have never been supportive so there was no point telling them, and when I confided in my brother he told me I was a stupid bitch .

    I was never given any information about even the procedure, I only found out years afterwards. I do remember a woman at the time having a very late one and having her labour induced which was pretty dramatic and terrifying .
    For what its worth Cobbers ...

    I would give anything to have been able to be there for you.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  30. #380
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    We (genuine pro-lifers) have to accept failure though and we have to accept that abortion (the 'war' of mother against child) will only end when no one actualy wants one.
    hmm, I don't think anyone actually wants an abortion, it's just that some people really don't want, or feel they can't have, a baby.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "The one little thing I had asked my boyfriend to do was get me some cakes from the bakery to have that evening but he forgot."
    What a bastard!

  32. #382
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    What a bastard!
    I'm not sure if you're joking because that does look quite funny on it's own really! lol. But seriously, he was a real bastard, he was just a very quiet little bastard so it took me years to work out that he was one, even after we split up I still didn't realise til someone else pointed it out to me! .

  33. #383
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    He definitely sounds like a real ***hole to me... Not someone you'd want to have next to you when making life changing decisions...

  34. #384
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I am serious. That may seem 'funny on its own' (an overreaction), but given the circumstances it's inconsiderate on his part.

  35. #385
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Aye, you're right there Manzana. I've always had a problem with trusting men too much and not seeing the patently obvious, unfortunately.

    I was thinking about that statistic which The Queen mentioned, pages ago, where only 1% of abortions are the product of rape, and how flawed that statistic is. It's very likely that a high proportion of rapes are never reported, and many of them happen with a relationship setting, so how can anyone actually know how many abortions are the product of rape?. I didn't even realise, when I was younger, that it could be considered rape if the rapist is your chosen 'other half'.

  36. #386
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote fiver View Post
    I am serious. That may seem 'funny on its own' (an overreaction), but given the circumstances it's inconsiderate on his part.
    Thanks. I feel as though I am hijacking this thread for a little sympathy, I didn't mean to!.

  37. #387
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    *fiver confesses that he has little faith in the human race or his fellow males*

    Also, *laments the fact that there is only one frowning icon! How is he supposed to express the depths of his cynicism and pessimism with such limitations!?*

  38. #388
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Yep, I went into a private clinic and they barely spoke to me, just took the money and basically I got shoved onto the production line. Because I had my own little business at the time I left as soon as I could and rushed back to work that afternoon so that nobody would know. The one little thing I had asked my boyfriend to do was get me some cakes from the bakery to have that evening but he forgot . He had to pay for the procedure as he was earning 10 times as much as I was, I think he thought he'd done the tough bit .
    Oh great..my partner (obviously relieved it was all over and didnt need talking about) moaned about the reception on the TV in the waiting room and the fact that I had been given tea and toast afterwards when he had just had a coke from a machine.

    When I got in the car sobbing, cold and shaking he ruffled my hair and said 'dont cry its over now. Little did he know.

  39. #389
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Oh great..my partner (obviously relieved it was all over and didnt need talking about) moaned about the reception on the TV in the waiting room and the fact that I had been given tea and toast afterwards when he had just had a coke from a machine.

    When I got in the car sobbing, cold and shaking he ruffled my hair and said 'dont cry its over now. Little did he know.

    Twats, aren't they?. At least we're away from them now, Slack!. I don't remember crying, I supressed my emotions for years afterwards I think.

  40. #390
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Aye, you're right there Manzana. I've always had a problem with trusting men too much and not seeing the patently obvious, unfortunately.

    I was thinking about that statistic which The Queen mentioned, pages ago, where only 1% of abortions are the product of rape, and how flawed that statistic is. It's very likely that a high proportion of rapes are never reported, and many of them happen with a relationship setting, so how can anyone actually know how many abortions are the product of rape?. I didn't even realise, when I was younger, that it could be considered rape if the rapist is your chosen 'other half'.
    Oh! this is a big trigger subject for me cobweb!

    I wasnt sure I was ready to admit it yet but what the hell I have now! my abortion was the final chapter in an ugly saga of a marital rape.

    Judging from the responses on previous forums marital rape is a very contentious subject indeed. One posters thinly veiled response was really 'serves you right' because apparently it was my duty to drop my knickers so that my husband could take his pleasure whenever and wherever he liked , regardless of how he was treating me and my children and regardless of the revulsion I felt towards him because of the distress he caused us all.

    Apparently I had signed up not only for abject misery,non communication, and cruelty but also sexual humilation...heavens! what more could a girl want. Mills and Boon eat your heart out

    I did however get three pm's from other women thanking me for opening up the subject as they didnt feel able to . One member was still in a situation where she faced the threat of marital rape daily and I was able to offer her support and discuss her options with her. For me that was a good enough reason to have shared .

  41. #391
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Twats, aren't they?. At least we're away from them now, Slack!. I don't remember crying, I supressed my emotions for years afterwards I think.
    I remember lots of crying and lots and lots of pain which I had not been warned about or expected. And each time I had a womb constriction I cried again because I remembered why.

  42. #392
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Judging from the responses on previous forums marital rape is a very contentious subject indeed. One posters thinly veiled response was really 'serves you right' because apparently it was my duty to drop my knickers so that my husband could take his pleasure whenever and wherever he liked , regardless of how he was treating me and my children and regardless of the revulsion I felt towards him because of the distress he caused us all.
    I would be surprised if you got a response like that from anyone here. It's not contentious as far as I'm concerned - rape is rape.

  43. #393
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ditto to that... begining to think I have just spent far too long on the wrong forums!!

  44. #394
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    ditto to that... begining to think I have just spent far too long on the wrong forums!!
    sounds like it!!
    All I will say about my 'partner' at that time in my life is that we both used to drink, and apparently it was ok for him to wait til I fell asleep after a few glasses of wine before he decided to get cosy with me!. I did think it was odd at the time, looking back I should have punched his light out!.

  45. #395

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    In response to the OP, yes.

    It seems many people in this thread are equivocating ethical rules (morals), and societal rules (the law). They make the argument that in countries where abortion is illegal, it results in unethical treatment of the women and fetus, and thus abortion must therefore be legal, and is also moral. This is fallacious because ethical rules do not equal societal rules. The question in the OP seems to be 'Given veganism, is abortion ethically wrong or right?' We must therefore rely on ethical philosophy to address the OP's question.

    Another common response has been to rely upon the existence of souls, intrinsic value (usually of life) or buddhism. All three of these concepts are far from proved or having evidential support, and until they do are almost useless as moral theories. These type of theories all rely upon certain concepts which have no grounding in argument or fact, so I don't see how anybody can take them on anything other than faith, making the moral judgements they result in nothing more than personal preference of faith.

    As a person with an avid interest in ethical philosophy, I was almost disappointed to find that most of the arguments in favour of moral realism (the idea that moral rules are 'real,' as opposed to numerous theories that reduce to moral subjectivism) were entirely unconvincing. They relied upon question-begging ideas of value that gave individuals no good reason to act morally (according to that theory). As a vegetarian (at the time, now a vegan), this was even more disheartening. It essentially meant that I had no good reason to not eat meat. That was until I heard of a moral theory called desire utilitarianism (which is available in detail at http://alonzofyfe.com/article_du.shtml). Essentially, desire utilitarianism is as follows:
    (1) Desires exist.

    (2) Desires are the only reasons for action that exist.

    (3) Desires are propositional attitudes.

    (4) People seek to realize states of affairs in which the propositions that are the objects of their desires are true.

    (5) People act to realize states of affairs in which the propositions that are the object of their desires are true, given their beliefs meaning that false or incomplete beliefs may thwart their desires.

    (6) Some desires are malleable.

    (7) Desires can, to different degrees, tend to fulfill or thwart other desires. That is, they can contribute to realizing the propositions that are the objects of other desires true, or contribute to preventing the realization of those propositions.

    (8) To the degree that a malleable desire tends to fulfill other desires, to that degree people generally have reason to promote or encourage the formation and strength of that desire. To the degree that a malleable desire tends to thwart other desires, to that degree people generally have reason to inhibit or discourage the formation and strength of that desire.

    (9) The tools for promoting or inhibiting desires include praise, condemnation, reward, and punishment.

    Now to most people, these propositions just read as an obvious explanation of human behaviour. But they can also be used to explain other behaviours we see as immoral. Take for example lying. If my desires are my only reasons for action, then asking the question 'Is it more likely or easier to actualize my own desires in a world where people lie less or more?' shows that because it is easier for me to actualize my own desires in a world where people lied less, or not at all, I therefore have very good reasons for action to condemn lying.

    Some may be reluctant to call this a moral theory, as it is unusual because it actually explains why we have reasons to do something, rather then saying "We should all promote happiness/life/pleasure/preference satisfaction." These utterances can all be deduced from desire utilitarianism, yet they are not provable stand-alone moral theories. Even if we don't call desire utilitarianism a 'moral' theory, its propositions still remain. The arbitrary name we give something has no effect on its explanatory power or outcomes.

    So, how does this relate to veganism? Considering that animals have brains, and therefore desires as well, we (generally) have good reasons for actions to:
    - Take into account others desires when making decisions
    - Evaluate not according to arbitrary taxonomies (race, gender, hair colour, species), but properties instead (sentience) (Note: Rewording this to exclude animals by adding 'humans' as the second word is fallacious because it commits the fallacy it is arguing against - restricting the only beings worth evaluating to humans IS evaluating according to arbitrary taxonomies)
    - Ensure the 'difference' fits the 'discrimination' (This is almost a rewording of the above. Take for example a casting agent rejecting an actor on the grounds that he has a dark skin colour, and the darker skin colour would make the plot incoherent. We do not see this action as immoral because the difference is actually relevant to the discrimination, whereas in the case of an enslaved minority, it is not - the minority can perform just as well in an equal economy as the majority. The difference does not fit the discrimination. With animals, they may not be able to think, but that difference does not fit the discrimination, it only shows why they should be excluded from voting and education. A more pertinent question for our current practices would be 'Are they sentient?')

    One could also develop an argument along the lines of the livestock industry's effect on climate change, and how this effects humans.

    With regards to abortion, this has some interesting outcomes. For one, if the fetus does not have a brain at the time of abortion, then it does not have the capacity to create and maintain desires, and thus is excluded from moral decisions. An argument from potentiality is also not possible: If I already have the capacity to create and maintain desires, then I have no good reasons for promoting a world in which the potentiality to create and maintain desires is actualized, as I already have that capacity. The only beings who would have that reason are the fetus', but they do not have desires, and thus do not have reasons.

    Abortion does not rely upon arbitrary taxonomies either, as the fetus may not have the attribute of sentience. If one was to formulate an argument along the lines of 'We should promote consideration of life in moral decisions,' they would be committed to the view that eating plants would be immoral, as even though plants do not have desires, they are nonetheless alive, and their life must be considered.

    Now, this is all fine until the fetus acquires a brain and therefore has desires. If the women was aware of the fetus' development until this point, and took no action to prevent the fetus' continued development, then the women has consented to the fetus' development and can take no further action to hinder or halt the fetus' development. If the women had no opportunity to deny or affirm consent, then she has a decision to make as soon as she is aware of the fetus inside of her.

    In conclusion, given veganism, abortion is:
    - morally permissible until the fetus develops a brain and therefore desires
    - morally permissible if the women had no opportunity to deny or affirm consent and denies consent at that moment
    - morally wrong if the fetus has a brain and therefore desires
    - morally wrong if the women changes her mind about consent after the baby gains a brain and desires

  46. #396
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I always thought it worked better with pro-choice. With veganism you are preventing animals from being bred, so they don't have to live tortured lives. With pro-choice you are preventing people being born, so that they don't have to live a life being unwanted by their parents. When you think that 80-90 per cent of rapes are unreported in the UK, then only allowing people who can prove they were raped to have abortions, then this is unfair to the women who were too ashamed and afraid to step forward and they are punished for that by having to bear the child of their rapist and may not have a child they could have had who would grow up wanted with a happy mother, thereby preventing that person from potentially living a happy life.
    You discover in him all the same organs of feeling as in yourself....has Nature arranged all the springs of feeling in this animal to the end that he might not feel?

  47. #397
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hello JaydinNathan. Thank you for your logical perspective. However, emotion isn't logical and it's easy to see how people can torture themselves interminably with guilt-laden 'what if?'s, precisely because it's not just the termination of the development of a pre-sentient lump of tissue that's at stake, but the irrevocable extinguishing of that unique potential to become a sentient being. Also, pregnancy causes powerful biochemical changes in women, which are intimately interwoven with emotional states such as love and attachment.

    I think it's practically negligence when women seeking abortions are not counselled about alternative courses of action. But it's equally tragic when women are forced by state-imposed 'morality' to go through with unwanted pregnancies.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  48. #398
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Have you never met a person who has been adopted? People can still live great lives and do great things even if their childhood wasn't the dreamy, sunshine filled childhood everyone envisions.

    Just because the mother isn't happy, doesn't mean a persons life needs to be extinguished... They may not necessarily live a 'tortured' life, that's not for you or any person to decide... That baby can't speak out against its death just like a chicken can't, so I'm seeing a lot of contradiction.
    Quote Invictus View Post
    I always thought it worked better with pro-choice. With veganism you are preventing animals from being bred, so they don't have to live tortured lives. With pro-choice you are preventing people being born, so that they don't have to live a life being unwanted by their parents. When you think that 80-90 per cent of rapes are unreported in the UK, then only allowing people who can prove they were raped to have abortions, then this is unfair to the women who were too ashamed and afraid to step forward and they are punished for that by having to bear the child of their rapist and may not have a child they could have had who would grow up wanted with a happy mother, thereby preventing that person from potentially living a happy life.

  49. #399

    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    i started to read this thread but stopped because it is really full of the usual arguments that you see for and against abortion. i was, however, attracted by the idea that being a vegan would perhaps necessarily make one automatically take a view on other ideas or beliefs. so for example similar questions could be asked:

    Can you be vegan without also being against the death penalty?

    or maybe,

    Can you be vegan without also being an atheist?

    or perhaps,

    Can you be vegan without also being a socialist?



    i am new here; maybe these questions have already been discussed on this site and polls asking these very questions voted on (in which case - sorry!), or, maybe i've given new ideas for threads and polls similar to this one (in which case - you're welcome!)...


    i am very interested in the idea that being one thing (vegan) makes it likely (or even certain) that you'll be something else too.


    if the person who started this thread was expecting "vegan = pro-life" then it has not turned out to be the case, has it? at the time of writing only about 1 in 5 of the members here seem to be in agreement with that proposition.

    incidentally, i'd bet that if similar polls were taken on this board asking the questions that i posed above, the results would be better than 1 in 5.

    any takers?

  50. #400
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi mb and welcome to the forum.

    Interesting post but I'm not 'volunteering', although I know a man who may.

    leedsveg

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