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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #1
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hmmm, I wanted to make this a 'Yes/No' poll but I can't find anyway to do so ..

    Just the question then: Can you be Vegan without also being Pro-Life?

    LATE ADDITION:

    Sorry folks I really ballsed this opening post up ..

    What was on my mind, and that I completely forgot to mention, was this:

    Is there any argument a vegan could use to justify abortion of unborn humans on demand that no meat eater could use as an argument to justify animal slaughter on demand?

    Please don't shoot me for having to play the devils-advocate role of meat-eater on this particular topic btw ...
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  2. #2
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yes.


    lv



    [I take it you mean that pro-life= abortion never justified]

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    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Dang! Forgot to 'vote' myself ...

    I don't understand how human life can be excluded from animal life so I have to say ....

    NO.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  4. #4
    kikifromscotland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yes.

    Many vegans are pro choice, the reason is usually that they see the abortion issue as a question of the woman's right to control over her body for 9 months vs the foetus's 'right' to life. The difference with meat eating is that it is a sentient being's right to life vs the right of a human to have something which 'tastes good'. A foetus is only a potential person and in fact has no rights until birth. I believe foetal rights should commence at the point at which the foetus could potentially live independently outside the woman's body.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Yes.

    Many vegans are pro choice, the reason is usually that they see the abortion issue as a question of the woman's right to control over her body for 9 months vs the foetus's 'right' to life. The difference with meat eating is that it is a sentient being's right to life vs the right of a human to have something which 'tastes good'. A foetus is only a potential person and in fact has no rights until birth. I believe foetal rights should commence at the point at which the foetus could potentially live independently outside the woman's body.
    And ..a no from me.

    A womans control over her body extends to control over contraception surely? Her 'right' to become pregnant is apparently relevant, as is her 'right' to abort, but the foetus 'right' to life is not? It was after all, not an intruder but an invited guest?

    Any woman who participates in a sexual act without protection is potentially opening the door to a foetus, inviting it in and taking the position of host...to then pass its coat and show it to the door seems a little impolite to say the least?

    Of course there are exceptions but generally speaking we cannot use the 'I didnt think I would get pregnant if he kept his socks on' reasoning anymore so what reasoning can we give to being surprised or inconvienced when our act of procreation ends up in.. well ..umm procreation?

  6. #6
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Of course there are exceptions ...
    ...and that's why in my opinion, YES, abortion can sometimes be justified.

    lv

  7. #7
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I take it 'pro life' here means 'never accepting of abortions'?

    I kind of think these phrases are rediculous, I'm pro life and pro choice. I haven't applied either statment to abortion.
    Is anyone really anti life or anti choice?

    Makes it sound like anyone who ever considers abortion must hate all life and anyone against abortion must be against choice.

  8. #8
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    We already have a thread titled Abortion? where people have been posting for the last two years, the last postings being as recently as 8 October 2010.

    lv

  9. #9
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Yes.

    Many vegans are pro choice, the reason is usually that they see the abortion issue as a question of the woman's right to control over her body for 9 months vs the foetus's 'right' to life. The difference with meat eating is that it is a sentient being's right to life vs the right of a human to have something which 'tastes good'. A foetus is only a potential person and in fact has no rights until birth. I believe foetal rights should commence at the point at which the foetus could potentially live independently outside the woman's body.
    Trying to think if those arguments could be used in favour of meat eating ..

    1. Denying people the right to put into, or take out of their bodies, whatever they like is denying people control of their own bodies ...

    2. An animal isn't ever a potential person ...

    3. Like an unborn human an animal doesn't have rights untill rights are granted ...

    Personally I wouldn't like to have to argue against a pro-life meat eater that killing a human being as a lifestyle choice is right but killing an animal as a lifestyle choice is wrong.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  10. #10
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    I take it 'pro life' here means 'never accepting of abortions'?

    I kind of think these phrases are rediculous, I'm pro life and pro choice. I haven't applied either statment to abortion.
    Is anyone really anti life or anti choice?

    Makes it sound like anyone who ever considers abortion must hate all life and anyone against abortion must be against choice.
    That is a very good post!

    My personal opinion is that those who would unconditionaly ban abortion are the greatest enemies of those who would preserve abortion for extreme circumstances.

    In an exactly similar way those who advocate abortion on demand (which is basicaly abortion as birth control) are the greatest , although unwitting, allies of the 'no abortion under any circumstances' crew.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  11. #11
    maggielassie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yes. Abortion is about women's rights and women's choices. In patriarchal societies, women do not have full control over their avoidance of pregnancy b/c of different socio-cultural pressures & influences to be 'feminine' and thus want or aim to 'please'. Therefore, a woman can take a little bit of control back over her body if unwanted pregnancy occurs...

    Moreover, when/where abortion is illegal, many women die at the hands of unexperienced 'butchers' (who just want to make money) in clandestine cliniques/clandestine operations. Unborn foetuses do not feel a thing when removed. A fully grown woman can die bleeding to death whenever/wherever abortion is illegal. I don't think it's really being "pro-life" wanting abortion illegal.
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Yes, although I agree with other posters that I'm not "anti-life", I'm "pro-choice".
    "If you don't have a song to sing you're okay, you know how to get along humming" Waltz (better than fine) - Fiona Apple

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    maggielassie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Here is a scene from If these walls could talk, a film that aimed at raising awareness about what was happening in (for example) the US when abortion was illegal (except under some circumstances):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seQdBHoZ2tM

    (It is 1952 the woman, having few choices and being desperate, has just called for the help of a clandestine abortion "doctor". Scary, upsetting stuff. )

    Here is the Wiki page on unsafe abortions that still occur in countries where it's still illegal:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion

    The WHO is particularly concerned with this phenomenon, which can result in many women's death. Wanting abortion to be (either completely or mostly) illegal is not really "pro-life" IMHO...
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

  14. #14
    kikifromscotland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Trying to think if those arguments could be used in favour of meat eating ..

    1. Denying people the right to put into, or take out of their bodies, whatever they like is denying people control of their own bodies ...

    2. An animal isn't ever a potential person ...

    3. Like an unborn human an animal doesn't have rights untill rights are granted ...

    Personally I wouldn't like to have to argue against a pro-life meat eater that killing a human being as a lifestyle choice is right but killing an animal as a lifestyle choice is wrong.
    But the thing about 'control' in pregnancy is actually about bodily autonomy which is different from the control over what you put in your mouth. That foetus is going to inhabit you for 9 months and potentially cause you distress. leech valuable minerals like calcium from your body, act as a parasite draining you, cause you to have to take low paid time off work or make it difficult to get a job, give rise to many medical conditions, and you may have to be sliced open to get it out of you. In certain ways the foetus will 'harm' you and therefore it's the balance of the harm of a sentient being versus the harm of a (possibly) non-sentient one. This is completely different from meat eating where the human is unharmed (except that they may get a heart attack if they do eat the meat!) and a sentient being is harmed.

    Animals have been proven to feel pain. Early stage foetuses almost certainly cannot feel pain. People think very emotionally on this issue and imagine an actual formed baby, but at the earliest points in fact all you have is a clump of cells. I am pro-choice with the position that women who are going to abort should do so at the earliest possible point.

    Imagine that a non-human animal parasite took up residence in your stomach and was parasitic in your body. You got this parasite by swimming in a pool where the parasite lived, and although you knew the risks you also ensured that the risk was extremely low by wearing a special swimsuit that in 99% of cases ensures that you will not get that parasite. You went swimming because it was a fun, enjoyable activity, and you only get one life so you didn't want to miss out on the joys of it. However now you have this parasite, and it makes you uncomfortable to know it is there, living off of you. You also know that at this point it is highly unlikely the parasite is sentient and able to feel pain, however as it matures it will grow to be so, and once sentient, it will burst from your body in a way harmful and injurious, and even potentially fatal to you. However removing the parasite, while a simple, low risk procedure to you, will be fatal to it. Would you wait until it burst out or have it removed? What if you were pushed into the pool?

    I'm not at all antinatalist and believe that babies once born are a wonderful blessing but I also believe that it's much better for abortions to take place early on than for a new sentient being to be born with a potential negative impact on his or her parents, his or her siblings, and his or herself. There are far too many unwanted kids waiting to get adopted in the UK and plenty of 'pro lifers' who don't actually think about the misery of those lives of the kids in foster care or childrens homes with nobody to love them unconditionally and nobody they can count on no matter what.


    Here are some scenarios where I would see abortion as appropriate, what do you think?

    1. A woman who has a physical, compulsive sex addiction, as well as a number of other emotional problems, including suffering from depression, panic attacks and having difficulty caring for herself, arrives at the doctor saying that although she has been having counselling for her addiction, she still slips up, and she has done so recently resulting in her now being pregnant. She tells the doctor that she needs to have a termination as she cannot cope mentally with a pregnancy or making any decisions for another person- she can barely look after herself. The doctor can see that being pregnant is causing her a great deal of stress and anxiety. However the doctor does point out that she may want to think longer about her decision or consider having the baby and giving the child up for adoption. At this point she freaks out and tells the doctor that if he 'won't get this thing out of her' she'll do it herself with a knitting needle.

    2. A 14 year old girl attends catholic school, where there is no sex education, and her parents are very strict and don't let her watch TV or use the internet and monitor what books she reads. She has heard stories from the other girls but she still doesn't really understand what sex is and is afraid they will make fun of her if she asks. She meets a boy at church and they go for a walk together one day- he tells her he likes her a lot, and kisses her. She likes him too and is really excited to be his girlfriend. She goes round to his house one evening to do homework, and when she gets there his parents are out. He tells her he loves her and that if she loves him she will sleep with him, because that's how you show love. She isn't sure and thinks it might be wrong but he assures her it's not. She gives in in the end, and feels ashamed afterwards. The boy doesn't contact her again. In three months time, she notices she has been missing periods and is being sick a lot- her mum takes her to the doctor, who says she is pregnant. Her parents are horrified and really angry- they say that once the baby is born they will look after it, and she'll have to go to boarding school. She is scared and confused, and doesn't want this to happen, and she confides in a teacher, who tells her it would be difficult for her to raise the child herself at her age- what's more, it will be difficult to finish school if she has to be a single parent. She doesn't want a baby yet and feels too young.

    3. A married couple decide the man should have a vasectomy, as due to their health problems, limited income, and the fact they are now in their mid 40s and already have grown children, they don't feel they can handle any more. The man has the vasectomy and the doctor neglects to tell them that it might not have worked. The woman gets pregnant, and shortly after this her husband is diagnosed with lung cancer. The idea of trying to raise a child while going into her 50s and 60s, and trying to support and care for her husband at the same time, and possibly having to raise the child alone if the worst should happen, makes her very distressed. She discusses things with her husband, and he wants her to make the decision based on what she wants. She doesn't want a baby.

    4. A single mother of two young children, recently abandoned by her partner, meets a new guy who seems really sweet. They date for a while and then have sex, using protection. After a few weeks, they split up. She discovers that despite using protection she is pregnant and she contacts the father but he isn't interested. She is upset because she wants to do the best for her two current children and is working hard at her job to try and give them a decent standard of life, and she's not sure if the maternity pay will be enough to pay the bills and rent. She decides to keep the baby anyway. Later in the pregnancy she goes for a scan and the doctor tells her that her baby is severely disabled and likely to require round the clock care. She is really upset as she knows this will mean her two children will not be able to get much of her time and attention, the family will have to go on benefits, they will suffer for the mistake she has made.

    5. A woman is in an abusive relationship which she doesn't know how to get out of. She is terrified of her husband and doesn't object to having sex with him for fear he will hurt her. She becomes pregnant and fears he will be abusive to the child once born. At the same time she now feels like it's too much of a challenge to try and leave him, if she not only has to try and get herself settled, well and safe, but also has to deal with another life as well. She thinks she will be emotionally detached from the child as it will be part of him, and she feels trapped and thinks she will be unable to ever move on if she always has to have part of her abuser with her.

    6. A woman is an alcoholic and drinks heavily, she occassionally uses crack cocaine. She often has black outs, and when she ends up pregnant she assumes it occured during one such blackout. She is not inclined to take any action relating to the pregnancy, but her sister insists on taking her to the doctor. The doctor gives general advice regarding her options, but does tell her that with the alcohol and cocaine use the baby is likely to have problems including probably FAS. She agrees with the doctor that she would be unlikely to take care of the baby.


    That's just a few scenarios off the top of my head, there are many more including the obvious rape scenario. Just wanted to point out that in general it's not promiscuous young girls wildly sleeping around with no protection and no regards to the consequences.

  15. #15
    kikifromscotland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post
    Here is a scene from If these walls could talk, a film that aimed at raising awareness about what was happening in (for example) the US when abortion was illegal (except under some circumstances):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seQdBHoZ2tM

    (It is 1952 the woman, having few choices and being desperate, has just called for the help of a clandestine abortion "doctor". Scary, upsetting stuff. )

    Here is the Wiki page on unsafe abortions that still occur in countries where it's still illegal:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion

    The WHO is particularly concerned with this phenomenon, which can result in many women's death. Wanting abortion to be (either completely or mostly) illegal is not really "pro-life" IMHO...
    This.

    Also want to point out that the system in the UK is not that abortion is 'legal'. Rather a woman seeking an abortion must satisfy the doctor that to not do so would be in some way harmful (including emotionally) to herself or her current children.

  16. #16
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Here are some scenarios where I would see abortion as appropriate, what do you think?
    'Lo Kiki

    I think, in retrospect, that I ballsed this topic up very badly.

    Should have asked summat more like "Should vegans oppose abortion on demand?"

    Point there being that anyone who supports abortion on demand clearly believes abortion (which by default is the intentional taking of an innocent life) as being appropriate for absolutely any reason and/or for absolutely no reason at all.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  17. #17
    kikifromscotland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I think very few people hold that view (that abortion should be allowed for no reason) although I was disgusted by comments on another board by someone who said they enjoyed their abortions.

    I took a reproductive rights course and the general consensus was that abortion should be allowed, but most of the girls qualified with 'but I wouldn't do it myself'. I think most women who turn to abortion do so because their options are limited and they are facing some difficulties in their health, relationship, finance or emotional state, or many women nowadays choose to remain childless but don't believe they should have to be abstinent as a result (after all, I am sure no man in history has said 'i don't want kids therefore I'll never have sex,' why would you expect a woman to?) and although they take precautions you can almost never be 100% safe.

    I think the main problem with society is that a man can get a woman pregnant then wander off never to be seen again and the woman is left to clean up the mess, whereas both of them were equally responsible for the creation of the potential life. And I think we need better sex education, I think it's shocking that catholic schools still teach abstinence only.

  18. #18
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    I think very few people hold that view (that abortion should be allowed for no reason)
    No one ever aborts for NO reason Kiki.

    Realising that spending money on raising a baby means less money to spend on fags and booze is a reason to abort.

    .. for the creation of the potential life.
    I am familiar with redefining that which is actualy alive into something that is only potentialy alive in order that is not a 'proper' life when we kill it.

    It's a redefinition meat eaters do: It can't speak. It can't think. It can't do this that or the other that we can do so its perfectly ok to kill it.

    On my mind is that that (it's not a 'proper' life) is a far stronger justification for killing animals than it is for killing unborn humans.

    Like an animal never will be a 'life' as we are a 'life' where as a human unborn almost definitely will be if it parent(s) do not pay some medicaly dressed up slaughterman a few bob to kill it.

    My understanding of vegan ethics is that if something is animal and alive that a vegan will not kill it. Full stop. Period.

    I am not understanding how vegans, in the exclusive instance of their own unborn, redefine that into something like "it is definitely animal, it is definitely alive, but it is not a 'life' so we may kill it".


    Think what I'm fishing here for is how a vegan redefines 'life' for an unborn human being in a way that a meat eater could not equaly use as a justification for killing an animal.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  19. #19
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    [I take it you mean that pro-life= abortion never justified]
    'Lo LV

    For the purposes of this topic 'Pro-Life' being more against abortion on demand than totaly against abortion under any absolutely any circumstance whatsoever.

    Personally I cannot see how opposing abortion in the extreme circumstance where both the life of mother and baby are likely to be lost if a pregnancy continues could ever be called a truly pro-life position, for instance.

    As I was just trying to clarify in my last posting: The bee in my bonnet right now is that I cannot find a justification for intentionaly killing an unborn human that could not be used to justify killing animals.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    I took a reproductive rights course and the general consensus was that abortion should be allowed, but most of the girls qualified with 'but I wouldn't do it myself'. I think most women who turn to abortion do so because their options are limited and they are facing some difficulties in their health, relationship, finance or emotional state, or many women nowadays choose to remain childless but don't believe they should have to be abstinent as a result (after all, I am sure no man in history has said 'i don't want kids therefore I'll never have sex,' why would you expect a woman to?) and although they take precautions you can almost never be 100% safe.

    I think the main problem with society is that a man can get a woman pregnant then wander off never to be seen again and the woman is left to clean up the mess, whereas both of them were equally responsible for the creation of the potential life.
    I totally agree, Kiki. Many people are not aware that the reality of many women's lives is very different from common perceptions. I do support abortion on demand because I know that the vast majority of women who seek abortion do so because of lack of real options in life to be able to raise the child, e.g. poverty, unsuccesful interpersonal relationships, being pregnant conflicting w/ career opportunity, etc.

    Some facts from Abortion Rights UK:

    http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/content/view/52/107/

    There is no evidence to support the assertion that women are careless about using contraception because abortion is available. Unplanned pregnancy is a distressing situation for any woman and choosing to have an abortion can be a difficult decision. The use of contraception is continuously rising but no method is 100 per cent effective. People's sex lives are often unpredictable so contraception may not always be used as effectively or regularly as it might be.
    http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/content/view/13/107/

    Almost 90% of abortions take place in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy
    And this article (below) seeks to expose all the sexist myths that come up in the abortion debate:

    http://www.abortionrights.org.uk/ima...he%20myths.pdf

    I personally have no history of abortion. Being lesbian, this is of little personal concern to me. However, I can tell that women are fully-grown and fully-born sentient beings (just like farmed animals) with limited choices in a patriarchal society. Make abortion (whether completetely or mostly) illegal and they will risk death & pain while trying to deal with poverty struggle (when they have no money to raise a child), while trying to preserve their careers or while trying to get away from abusive situations, etc. Because whether or not abortion is legal, women will need it and try to get it, because their freedom exists only to some extent in patriarchy. And, by the way, rape is not rare:

    http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/mythsampfacts2.php
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I also often noticed that people opposing abortion are often the same ones opposing gay & lesbian rights.

    I do support life; I support the safe life for the woman aborting, the fully grown and fully born sentient being...
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    But the thing about 'control' in pregnancy is actually about bodily autonomy which is different from the control over what you put in your mouth. That foetus is going to inhabit you for 9 months and potentially cause you distress. leech valuable minerals like calcium from your body, act as a parasite draining you, cause you to have to take low paid time off work or make it difficult to get a job, give rise to many medical conditions, and you may have to be sliced open to get it out of you. In certain ways the foetus will 'harm' you and therefore it's the balance of the harm of a sentient being versus the harm of a (possibly) non-sentient one. This is completely different from meat eating where the human is unharmed (except that they may get a heart attack if they do eat the meat!) and a sentient being is harmed.

    Animals have been proven to feel pain. Early stage foetuses almost certainly cannot feel pain. People think very emotionally on this issue and imagine an actual formed baby, but at the earliest points in fact all you have is a clump of cells. I am pro-choice with the position that women who are going to abort should do so at the earliest possible point.

    Imagine that a non-human animal parasite took up residence in your stomach and was parasitic in your body. You got this parasite by swimming in a pool where the parasite lived, and although you knew the risks you also ensured that the risk was extremely low by wearing a special swimsuit that in 99% of cases ensures that you will not get that parasite. You went swimming because it was a fun, enjoyable activity, and you only get one life so you didn't want to miss out on the joys of it. However now you have this parasite, and it makes you uncomfortable to know it is there, living off of you. You also know that at this point it is highly unlikely the parasite is sentient and able to feel pain, however as it matures it will grow to be so, and once sentient, it will burst from your body in a way harmful and injurious, and even potentially fatal to you. However removing the parasite, while a simple, low risk procedure to you, will be fatal to it. Would you wait until it burst out or have it removed? What if you were pushed into the pool?

    I'm not at all antinatalist and believe that babies once born are a wonderful blessing but I also believe that it's much better for abortions to take place early on than for a new sentient being to be born with a potential negative impact on his or her parents, his or her siblings, and his or herself. There are far too many unwanted kids waiting to get adopted in the UK and plenty of 'pro lifers' who don't actually think about the misery of those lives of the kids in foster care or childrens homes with nobody to love them unconditionally and nobody they can count on no matter what.


    Here are some scenarios where I would see abortion as appropriate, what do you think?

    1. A woman who has a physical, compulsive sex addiction, as well as a number of other emotional problems, including suffering from depression, panic attacks and having difficulty caring for herself, arrives at the doctor saying that although she has been having counselling for her addiction, she still slips up, and she has done so recently resulting in her now being pregnant. She tells the doctor that she needs to have a termination as she cannot cope mentally with a pregnancy or making any decisions for another person- she can barely look after herself. The doctor can see that being pregnant is causing her a great deal of stress and anxiety. However the doctor does point out that she may want to think longer about her decision or consider having the baby and giving the child up for adoption. At this point she freaks out and tells the doctor that if he 'won't get this thing out of her' she'll do it herself with a knitting needle.

    2. A 14 year old girl attends catholic school, where there is no sex education, and her parents are very strict and don't let her watch TV or use the internet and monitor what books she reads. She has heard stories from the other girls but she still doesn't really understand what sex is and is afraid they will make fun of her if she asks. She meets a boy at church and they go for a walk together one day- he tells her he likes her a lot, and kisses her. She likes him too and is really excited to be his girlfriend. She goes round to his house one evening to do homework, and when she gets there his parents are out. He tells her he loves her and that if she loves him she will sleep with him, because that's how you show love. She isn't sure and thinks it might be wrong but he assures her it's not. She gives in in the end, and feels ashamed afterwards. The boy doesn't contact her again. In three months time, she notices she has been missing periods and is being sick a lot- her mum takes her to the doctor, who says she is pregnant. Her parents are horrified and really angry- they say that once the baby is born they will look after it, and she'll have to go to boarding school. She is scared and confused, and doesn't want this to happen, and she confides in a teacher, who tells her it would be difficult for her to raise the child herself at her age- what's more, it will be difficult to finish school if she has to be a single parent. She doesn't want a baby yet and feels too young.

    3. A married couple decide the man should have a vasectomy, as due to their health problems, limited income, and the fact they are now in their mid 40s and already have grown children, they don't feel they can handle any more. The man has the vasectomy and the doctor neglects to tell them that it might not have worked. The woman gets pregnant, and shortly after this her husband is diagnosed with lung cancer. The idea of trying to raise a child while going into her 50s and 60s, and trying to support and care for her husband at the same time, and possibly having to raise the child alone if the worst should happen, makes her very distressed. She discusses things with her husband, and he wants her to make the decision based on what she wants. She doesn't want a baby.

    4. A single mother of two young children, recently abandoned by her partner, meets a new guy who seems really sweet. They date for a while and then have sex, using protection. After a few weeks, they split up. She discovers that despite using protection she is pregnant and she contacts the father but he isn't interested. She is upset because she wants to do the best for her two current children and is working hard at her job to try and give them a decent standard of life, and she's not sure if the maternity pay will be enough to pay the bills and rent. She decides to keep the baby anyway. Later in the pregnancy she goes for a scan and the doctor tells her that her baby is severely disabled and likely to require round the clock care. She is really upset as she knows this will mean her two children will not be able to get much of her time and attention, the family will have to go on benefits, they will suffer for the mistake she has made.

    5. A woman is in an abusive relationship which she doesn't know how to get out of. She is terrified of her husband and doesn't object to having sex with him for fear he will hurt her. She becomes pregnant and fears he will be abusive to the child once born. At the same time she now feels like it's too much of a challenge to try and leave him, if she not only has to try and get herself settled, well and safe, but also has to deal with another life as well. She thinks she will be emotionally detached from the child as it will be part of him, and she feels trapped and thinks she will be unable to ever move on if she always has to have part of her abuser with her.

    6. A woman is an alcoholic and drinks heavily, she occassionally uses crack cocaine. She often has black outs, and when she ends up pregnant she assumes it occured during one such blackout. She is not inclined to take any action relating to the pregnancy, but her sister insists on taking her to the doctor. The doctor gives general advice regarding her options, but does tell her that with the alcohol and cocaine use the baby is likely to have problems including probably FAS. She agrees with the doctor that she would be unlikely to take care of the baby.


    That's just a few scenarios off the top of my head, there are many more including the obvious rape scenario. Just wanted to point out that in general it's not promiscuous young girls wildly sleeping around with no protection and no regards to the consequences.
    Will you marry me?

    I am very much pro-abortion. I am only against abortion if it is forced upon someone, done 'Back Street' way, or in the very latter stages of pregnancy.
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post
    I do support life; I support the safe life for the woman aborting, the fully grown and fully born sentient being...
    This one has recurred in varying forms ...

    Yet vegan ethics, as I understand them, do not support the killing of less grown, less sentient animals (including unborn ones) so long as the fully grown, fully born and higher sentient being(s) that want to kill them can do so safely.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Festered View Post
    Will you marry me?

    I am very much pro-abortion. I am only against abortion if it is forced upon someone...
    What about coercion or decisions to abort based upon misinformation?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    This is a different issue from animal rights. It is about women's rights (the rights of another oppressed group). This is not about trying to compare it to veganism; it's about attempting to judge/control women's lives, and privileging a fertilised egg's life over theirs. If you ask me to choose between the life of a fully grown person who could bleed to death in a clandestine clinique or an unborn most likely non-sentient foetus, I will choose the former, no questions asked.

    Besides, this sort of discussion isn't going anywhere:

    Myth:The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to criminalise abortion


    Reality:

    The high number of unintended pregnancies in the UK would be most effectively avoided by providing good quality relationships and sex education. This is demonstrated by countries such as Belgium where the abortion law is more liberal, sex and relationships education is universal and abortion rates are much lower. Criminalising abortion is the best way to ensure unwanted children or injury or death for women who resort to ‘back-street’ abortion. 70,000 women die every year worldwide where safe, legal abortion is denied.
    You see? This is not "pro-life". Anti-abortion portrayed as being 'pro-life' is a lie. They don't care at all when women die.


    Just like in the gay & lesbian issue, the Church has no place to decide what's "good" for people's lives, especially in an increasingly secularised society.
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    vegan ethics. . . do not support the killing of less grown, less sentient animals (including unborn ones) so long as the fully grown, fully born and higher sentient being(s) that want to kill them can do so safely.
    And vegan ethics do not support decisions that would lead to sentient beings (in distress and with few options) bleeding to death, last time I checked.
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo LV

    For the purposes of this topic 'Pro-Life' being more against abortion on demand than totaly against abortion under any absolutely any circumstance whatsoever.

    Personally I cannot see how opposing abortion in the extreme circumstance where both the life of mother and baby are likely to be lost if a pregnancy continues could ever be called a truly pro-life position, for instance.

    As I was just trying to clarify in my last posting: The bee in my bonnet right now is that I cannot find a justification for intentionaly killing an unborn human that could not be used to justify killing animals.
    HI CS

    It's a very complex subject which for me has no black and white answers because people are unique and so each situation is unique.

    leedsveg

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post
    And vegan ethics do not support decisions that would lead to sentient beings (in distress and with few options) bleeding to death, last time I checked.
    Nor do Pro-Life ethics Maggie, although I know the Pro-Life tag is heavily associated with religious fanatics who would do exactly that.

    Anyways abortion on demand (allowing abortion for absolutey ANY reason at all) is not necessary to allow for abortion in genuinely life threatening pregnancies?

    This being in exactly the same way that triple by-pass heart surgery on demand is not necessary to allow for triple by-pass heart surgery to be performed as a life saving (as opposed to a life taking) medical procedure.

    To argue that medical procedure must be 'on demand' or be denied altogether makes no sense at all.

    .. it's about attempting to judge/control women's lives, and privileging a fertilised egg's life over theirs.
    Now, this is the sort of thing I would not want to have to argue with a meat-eater ..

    How would we deal with a counter along the lines of "Well, veganism is about controlling meat-eaters lives and privileging animal lives over theirs"?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    HI CS

    It's a very complex subject which for me has no black and white answers because people are unique and so each situation is unique.

    leedsveg
    'Lo LV

    So, someones says "eating meat is a very complex subject which for me has no black and white answers because people are unique and so each situation is unique"

    Where would we go from there most estimable Sir?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo LV

    So, someones says "eating meat is a very complex subject which for me has no black and white answers because people are unique and so each situation is unique"

    Where would we go from there most estimable Sir?
    Hi CS

    I would agree with them. They could give me an extreme situation where I could see that eating meat would be the compassionate, vegan thing to do. That wouldn't alter the fact that outside extreme situations, I would see that eating meat was not a vegan action.

    leedsveg

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    And I believe that anti-abortionists should keep their hands off women's ovaries, so to speak. Women's lives are more important than fertilised eggs'. Anti-abortionists do not consider the evidence we show them regarding women's pain anyway.

    Women are not unconditional sexual/personal properties for men, to have them get stuck into situtations that forces them into pregnancy no matter what -- just like dairy cows who are forced to get pregnant for humans to get their milk. Men should not force women into pregnancy. Women should be their own properties, with their own rights to terminate a pregnancy -- just like a cow should not be forced into pregnancy to serve others' purpose. That's the way I see it.

    Look, Cupid Stunt, I come from a feminist perspective (including in my veganism; i.e. I extended my awareness of the oppression of women to being aware of the oppression of non-humans) and you probably come from a religious perspective (I'm an atheist, btw). Thus the way I see it is that I'm not going to change my views and you're not going to change yours re abortion.

    So, why don't we just say we drop it right here? This isn't going anywhere. I'm fed up w/ arguing. This is a vegan board. On exclusively human issues, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, OK? Can we just leave it then?
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Hi CS,

    I got confused with the quoting function and just put things in inverted commas, hope it's not too confusing.



    You said:

    "Point there being that anyone who supports abortion on demand clearly believes abortion (which by default is the intentional taking of an innocent life) as being appropriate for absolutely any reason and/or for absolutely no reason at all" (my emphasis)

    Then you said

    "No one ever aborts for NO reason Kiki."

    Of course I'm being pedantic but I trust you can see that I was going from what you had already said in my response.


    With the utmost respect I feel that you are at one and the same time agreeing with me and therefore not actually responding to my posts, and yet disagreeing me by ignoring what I said and just repeating the same thing. I'll explain my reasoning below.



    If you could respond to:

    a) What you would do in relation to my non-human parasite scenario in my post above?
    b) Of my 6 situations above do you believe abortion would be an advisable option in any, all or none? I spent a long time writing them so was kind of hoping for a reply


    "Realising that spending money on raising a baby means less money to spend on fags and booze is a reason to abort."

    Yes and a good one. My reasoning? If a woman is drinking and smoking during pregnancy and places more importance on her access to recreational drugs during pregnancy not only is her child likely to have some complex health issues but more importantly she is unlikely to make a suitable parent to that child if these are her priorities. So really, what would you rather, either she removes a clump of cells incapable of suffering or she gives birth to a child very capable of suffering and that child is placed in a position very much where s/he will suffer. Adoption is not usually a feasible solution- I note there was also no response to where I state in my post "There are far too many unwanted kids waiting to get adopted in the UK and plenty of 'pro lifers' who don't actually think about the misery of those lives of the kids in foster care or childrens homes with nobody to love them unconditionally and nobody they can count on no matter what." what's more that child would have a very upsetting home truth that his/her parent gave them up for alcohol and cigarettes- just go to the Yahoo page on adoption to see plenty of children grieving for having been given up by what they still regard as their 'real' parents.


    "It's a redefinition meat eaters do: It can't speak. It can't think. It can't do this that or the other that we can do so its perfectly ok to kill it."
    Nope you haven't got my point here either. Two reasons abortion is different- firstly Animals are sentient secondly animals can exist without having to occupy the body of another sentient being.. There is some science suggesting that foetuses may become sentient at some point but unfortunately where the line actually falls is very much debated, but certainly at the beginning a foetus is just an unrecognisable-as-having-potential-to-become-a-human clump of cells. Animals are not inhabiting other sentient beings and being parasitic upon them, and if they are, I think few vegans would object to their destruction. If I visit a developing country and find a child ravaged by parasitic worms, and give that child a tablet to destroy those worms to help the child, am I being unvegan? Why should the foetus/ woman situation be any different unless it is because of the foetuses potentiality to be a human life which I think is where most non-vegan anti abortionists come from, and is a speciesist proposition.

    "My understanding of vegan ethics is that if something is animal and alive that a vegan will not kill it. Full stop. Period."
    A foetus is not alive, in my opinion, except in the same way that a plant is alive, unless it is sentient and can experience pain or be upset about losing its life.

    Legally a foetus is not alive until it is born. The legal position on born animals whether human or non human, is, generally, that they are alive.

    Last point, generally vegans are against the exploitation of other animals i.e. using them for human gain, even if that gain is simple sadistic pleasure in killing something. A woman is not using a foetus- in fact it is using her.


    I would not advocate abortion after the foetus has the potential for independent existence outside the woman, except where that foetus is a danger to the woman's health. I know that a submission that aborting a foetus even just before it was born was once made here and was part of a series of issues that led to the forum closing for a bit and am just remembering that I said at the time that I'd not take part in any more controversial debates, so while I would like an answer to what I have said above if we all want to duck out now in the interests of preserving peace on the forum I'm happy with that . That being said I don't think any less of or feel animosity towards anyone for their opinions on this subject.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post

    So, why don't we just say we drop it right here? This isn't going anywhere. I'm fed up w/ arguing. This is a vegan board. On exclusively human issues, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, OK? Can we just leave it then?
    Sure if everyone wants to leave it that's fine. I just got involuntarily compelled to jump in!

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post
    On exclusively human issues, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, OK?
    I'm interested in everyones opinions Maggie.

    You appear to be expressing the opinion that the taking of human life falls outside of vegan ethics?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Kiki, I can see you put a huge effort into those last posts of yours.

    I'm struggling to see which of the many arguments you are using could not also be used to justify killing animals.

    If you are still contributing to this topic would you be kind enough to point out the one you think is the least useable in that way?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi CS

    I would agree with them. They could give me an extreme situation where I could see that eating meat would be the compassionate, vegan thing to do. That wouldn't alter the fact that outside extreme situations, I would see that eating meat was not a vegan action.

    leedsveg
    Hi LV

    Well, obviously we are going to agree that eating meat outside of extreme circumstances is unvegan.

    I can't actualy tell if you are saying that abortion outside of extreme circumstances is unvegan though?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Hi LV

    Well, obviously we are going to agree that eating meat outside of extreme circumstances is unvegan.

    I can't actualy tell if you are saying that abortion outside of extreme circumstances is unvegan though?
    All I'm saying CS, is that I don't think abortion is always a wrong course of action. Of course we could spend ages trying to agree on what is meant by extreme circumstances but I'd rather not. Although the intention may be good, I think bringing together abortion and animal slaughter in the same thread may only serve to confuse issues. I'm now with others who have left this debate, especially since the thread topic is not what I originally thought it was when I first joined in.
    lv

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Kiki, I can see you put a huge effort into those last posts of yours.

    I'm struggling to see which of the many arguments you are using could not also be used to justify killing animals.

    If you are still contributing to this topic would you be kind enough to point out the one you think is the least useable in that way?

    Can you answer my scenarios and tell me your opinion re my parasite scenario?

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    I'm interested in everyones opinions Maggie.

    You appear to be expressing the opinion that the taking of human life falls outside of vegan ethics?
    I am saying that:

    (1) I believe that saving the lives of women (who might otherwise die or suffer if they do not have legal access to abortion) matters, first and foremost. The majority of abortions occur in the first 3 months of pregnancy, when fertilised eggs do not really feel a thing when removed. Vegan ethics are against both the death and the suffering of fully born animals, including females. Even when we oppose the egg and dairy industries, we majorly oppose the excruciating suffering of battery hens and dairy cows who are forced to breed for others' purposes. Look at the women in Kiki's examples somewhere above; those situations are the cases for the vast majority of women who seek abortion. Survey evidence has been shown. When someone cares about the fact that none of those women (examples above) should die or be in pain, one does not advocate barriers on abortion access, because ultimately death and/or pain (including in being forced to breed) for at least some of those women will happen when/where abortion gets (either partly or fully) criminalised. I have the right to care about these women more than for a non-sentient underdeveloped organism -- a fertilised egg which is ultimately different from all the animals that are killed (who are born & sentient). That's my take on this.

    (2) Whatever one's opinion is on exclusively human issues like this one, it does not conflict one's advocacy of veganism. Let's take a look at the definition of veganism, from the Vegan Society:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#Definition

    [T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
    [emphases mine]

    It means 'animals' as being non-human animals, the ones being horribly exploited and inflicted cruelty upon by the humans (A woman can have exploitation and cruelty inflicted upon her by a back-street "doctor" or a man who forces her into pregnancy, btw, though I'm talking about non-humans' issue here). Never in the Vegan definition does it talk about a mere non-sentient fertilised egg's having "more rights" than a woman who is either economically, socially, or personally disadvantaged (as is the case for most women facing unwanted pregnancy). People, including vegans, can make up their own minds on this, without it being at all relevant to veganism.

    And, besides, whether you like it or not, most people eat meat and dairy, and they are socialised into doing so. I don't believe it's gonna change any time soon. That particularly includes the fact that more non-vegans will be born. The world's population is supposed to increase up to 9 or 10 billion by 2050. Most of them are going to eat animals and their secretions, thus they are going to oppress non-humans even more. I agree, granted, that it is pessimistic. But I'm afraid this is what's most likely to happens. If there weren't any widely available abortions, even more people would be born. Their socialisation into eating meat, dairy, etc would lead them to cause the suffering of non-human animals even more. For this other reason, I do not view my defense of abortion as "unvegan". It is very vegan, on the contrary: veganism highlights the human oppression of non-human animals. What I'm saying here is that I see a decrease in the birth of humans as beneficial for the sake of the animals and the environment: less suffering on this earth in all ways, less exploitation and less cruelty.

    I'm done with this thread. As I said, You and I come from different POVs here, Cupid Stunt, and we're not gonna change our views if we see them consistent with veganism, as this issue is obviously little related to veganism anyway.

    Anti-abortionists always want to have the last word... while women's genuine life experiences (i.e. when limited choices and limited circumstances can happen, as is the case for most women aborting) are constantly being silenced, distorted, denigrated and/or pushed to the background...

    We're never gonna agree on this. Like Leeds veg says: "Some say 'tom-ah-to', others say 'tom-ay-to'". I'm going round in circle too...
    "The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men." ~Alice Walker.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    No bad feeling to those who wish to pull out of the conversation.

    I have totaly failed to find a moral argument that justifies abortion on demand that cannot be used as a moral justification for slaughtering animals on demand.

    For that reason it would be hypocritical of me to have the hump with anyone else who can't find one either.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Can you answer my scenarios and tell me your opinion re my parasite scenario?
    'Lo again Kiki

    In respect of the hard work you put into those posts I would be happy to tell you my opinion on the parasite scenario.

    The critical factor that defines a parasite is that it is an organism that lives within a different species to itself.

    That, unfortunately, renders any argument that a human embryo/foetus/whatever residing within another human is a parasite as being criticaly flawed.

    The problem with using a criticaly flawed argument oneself, particularly against meat eaters who depend entirely upon criticaly flawed arguments, is this: You cannot challenge someone elses flawed argument that 'justifies' killing whatever they want to kill whilst simultaeneously using a criticaly flawed argument to justify killing whatever it is you want to kill yourself.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    "[T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. "


    Maggielassie, I'm not argueing with your views on abortion but I really feel that humans most certainly are animals and the deffinition of vegan must also apply to humans too.

    Infact looking at the definition of vegan I'm surpprised that it says "humans, animals and the environment" IMO it should simply state "animals and the environment". Humans are animals if 'animal' is used it includes human by definition.

    Sorry that's probably very pedantic of me but it irritates me the way human (use of) language seeks to make us non-animal.


    As long as compassion is your basis for action then you won't go far wrong IMO. But I'd advise caution when chosing to adopt an 'absolute' point of view.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote maggielassie View Post

    Anti-abortionists always want to have the last word... while women's genuine life experiences (i.e. when limited choices and limited circumstances can happen, as is the case for most women aborting) are constantly being silenced, distorted, denigrated and/or pushed to the background...

    .
    My dilemma is that I fit into ALL of these catergories.... I am an anti -abortionist. AND I have got a geniune life experience of abortion . AND I am constantly being silenced and pushed into the background when I try to relay it.

    It never fails to amaze and sadden me that one of the most relevant voices in the great abortion debate ...the voice of women who have had abortions and as a result become anti-abortionists is perpetually silenced or discounted.

  44. #44
    kikifromscotland's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    'Lo again Kiki

    In respect of the hard work you put into those posts I would be happy to tell you my opinion on the parasite scenario.

    The critical factor that defines a parasite is that it is an organism that lives within a different species to itself.

    That, unfortunately, renders any argument that a human embryo/foetus/whatever residing within another human is a parasite as being criticaly flawed.

    The problem with using a criticaly flawed argument oneself, particularly against meat eaters who depend entirely upon criticaly flawed arguments, is this: You cannot challenge someone elses flawed argument that 'justifies' killing whatever they want to kill whilst simultaeneously using a criticaly flawed argument to justify killing whatever it is you want to kill yourself.
    Sorry Cupid but I wasn't actually asking whether it was relevant but what you would do in that scenario?

    Also with the six scenarios which women may be in I posted above are there any where you would think abortion is a viable option?

  45. #45
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    Sorry Cupid but I wasn't actually asking whether it was relevant but what you would do in that scenario?

    Also with the six scenarios which women may be in I posted above are there any where you would think abortion is a viable option?
    Oh, go on then

    One bit at a time though ...

    But the thing about 'control' in pregnancy is actually about bodily autonomy which is different from the control over what you put in your mouth.
    In meat eating you put something in your body purely to satisfy physical and/or emotional 'needs'.

    The act of sex is the putting of something in your body purely to satisfy physical and/or emotional 'needs'.

    In the same way that one can meet the need for eating without taking life by abstaining from eating certain things the same can be argued for sex: Need element can be met by anal/oral/masturbation/same gender sex/whatever.

    It would not be sustainable to argue with a meat eater that they should refrain from satisfying their physical and/or emotional 'wants' as they wish at the cost of an animal life whilst simultaeneously arguing that a human life is a fair trade for our own 'wants' to be satisfied as we wish.

    Those who refuse to modify their sexual preferences have no moral ground to argue against those who refuse to modify their dietary preferences, as far as I can see?

    My answer to all scenarios that involve people who know that pregnancy is caused by certain sexual practices is covered in that. They simply share the meat eater 'morality' that the right to life itself, for others, is outweighed by OUR right to live exactly as we wish.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kikifromscotland View Post
    There are far too many unwanted kids waiting to get adopted in the UK ..
    This one is trying to set a scene to rule out adoption as a viable option for scenarios where carrying to full term does not pose significant risk to the mother?

    It's a fallacious statement either way .. ...

    Finding a baby for adoption is very difficult nowadays. There are far less newborn babies put up for adoption than there were fifty years ago; obviously due to improved birth control and the acceptance of single mothers. This lack of babies has been termed a 'baby shortage'.

    http://www.baby-adoption.co.uk/
    The fallacious part not being that there are too many older kids waiting for adoption. That bit is true.

    The fallacious part is that new borns, that which becomes available at the end of a full term pregnancy, are in desperately short supply.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I stuggle with this. But it boils down to this for me: I cannot deny the rights of others becasue of my own beliefs. Even if I was completely aginst abortion, what right do I have to make that descision for other women? I'm horrified to think that someone would do that to me if the time ever came.

    For example: Pregnancy is not a option for me. If I were to become pregnant (even with all of the prevenatives measures I use) I would have to terminate the pregnancy. I have OCD and the medications I take would cause severe defects. It would be hard to do, and I would cry for the life that never could be. But it would be unfair for me to bring a suffering life into the world only to have it perish soon after that.

    I may not always agree with the choices some women make with their bodies and pregnancies, but we cannot have it both ways.

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    100% behind you, Cherry_Bmbshell.

    and you too MaggieLassie. No women should EVER have to justify their decisions regarding their own bodies too ANYONE.
    the only animal ingredient in my food is cat hair

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cherry_Bmbshell View Post
    For example: Pregnancy is not a option for me. If I were to become pregnant (even with all of the prevenatives measures I use) I would have to terminate the pregnancy. I have OCD and the medications I take would cause severe defects. It would be hard to do, and I would cry for the life that never could be. But it would be unfair for me to bring a suffering life into the world only to have it perish soon after that.
    'Lo Cherry and sorry to hear about your circumstances.

    I'm not at all sure on what basis you are arguing that an abortion for demonstrable medical reasons also serves as an argument in favour of abortion for any reason wahtsoever though.

    ... but we cannot have it both ways.
    To say that we cannot allowing abortion for medicaly determined reasons (professionaly determined unnaceptable risk to baby and/or mother) without allowing abortion for any reason at all simply makes no sense.

    That is akin to arguing for triple by pass heart surgery on demand on the basis that if anyone can't just demand the procedure far any reason at all then, when determined as neccesary by a medical pro, the procedure would have to be equaly denied?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Sorry if I wasn't too clear

    I simply meant it wasn't my place to judge a woman for her choices and It certainly isn't my place to make that choice for her.

    But only allowing abortions for medical reasons is a dangerous slippery slope. Doctors often come to different conclusions for the same medical condition. And if we start talking probability of a severe deffect or medical problem then it gets even hairier. One doctor might see a 50/50 chance of a problem reason enough to terminate, but another may only take 80/20 as an acceptable scenario. (And the American Supreme Court loves to make those descisions ) The other problem with only medically neccessary terminations is that many severe birth deffects can not be detected until the second trimester of a woman's pregnancy. Which by the way is now illegal to terminate at all in America. To use myself as an example again (sorry ) the birth deffects that would affect my pregnancy ( underdeveloped brain, disconnect of the spinal column, severe heart deffects) would only be detectable by early second trimester. So, if I waited to make sure and one was found I would have to carry, nuture, and fall in love with a dead foetus. An abortion in an early pregnancy may not be "medically neccessary" at the time.

    I also think that for many women abortion truly is the only choice. An abusive relationship, low income, etc. I do not know what happens in their lives so I can not deny them that option.

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