View Poll Results: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

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    62 77.50%
  • No

    14 17.50%
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Thread: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

  1. #451
    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    The way the world works costs fek knows how many millions/billions of animal lives a year, milliions of human lives a year to abortion and one child dead every six seconds from starvation and/or related diseases.

    The way the world works possibly needs changing?
    Well. In my humble opinion. you should state your side and move on. with possibly a smile on your face, even if it is fake...you shouldn't judge people. not everyone is like you. when you "bully" people to attempt to get them to your side, the majority of the time it doesn't work...it just makes people not want to talk to you or listen to you which totally defeats the purpose of attempting to get them to your side in the first place. you "catch" more flies with honey....

    passive aggressiveness bugs the crap outta me. either be a dick or be nice.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  2. #452
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    Well. In my humble opinion. you should state your side and move on. with possibly a smile on your face, even if it is fake...you shouldn't judge people. not everyone is like you. when you "bully" people to attempt to get them to your side, the majority of the time it doesn't work...it just makes people not want to talk to you or listen to you which totally defeats the purpose of attempting to get them to your side in the first place. you "catch" more flies with honey....

    passive aggressiveness bugs the crap outta me. either be a dick or be nice.
    I can count the meat eaters I know who wouldn't agree with you on the fingers of one foot Miss Bettie
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  3. #453
    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    whatever. if it works for you it works for you. but im sorry, just because you believe what you believe and are who you are, doesn't make you better than anyone else and the majority of your posts on this forum makes me feel like thats what you think. I may be alone in my thinking for that, but thats how i take what you've been saying.

    do what you do, i'm sure it works for you. I'm just happy i believe what i believe and do what i feel is right.

    best of luck.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  4. #454
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    I may be alone in my thinking for that, but thats how i take what you've been saying.
    I know you're not alone missbettie. I've given up trying to have any serious discussion.

    Leedsveg

  5. #455
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I'm 100% sure CS's heart is in the right place but, CS, you have said in another context:

    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...s-say&p=665172

    "the buddha says that although we should teach with gentle lessons first that harsh lessons should be delivered before we walk away and leave another person to continue to suffer, and to be a cause of suffering to others, as a result of their ignorance."

    So here I guess you are trying to teach us "harsh lessons" to stop us causing "suffering", as you see it, as a result of our "ignorance", again as you see it?

  6. #456
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ^ yes, just to add to the chorus, I really don't think we need any harsh lessons, thankyou, CS, all this kind of thing is doing is alienating you I'm afraid .

    Your posts do smack of someone who feels 'better' than the rest of us, and that just irritates, sorry! .

    Also, your 'harsh' approach is wholly unoriginal, I think most of us went through that stage when we were teenagers, feeling like we had to show others 'the truth' even if it shocked them. We learned it wasn't the best approach .

    I think it's a waste of energy aswell. When you get to a certain level of maturity you realise that some compassion and acceptance of others is necessary in order to survive this World. Certainly to survive peaceably and humbly (the 'right way') I think it's essential.

    I don't think that any one of us would disagree with you that the World needs to change, but alienating yourself from it acheives nothing, surely?. Unless you want to drive yourself insane, which I have to admit is sometimes appealing! lol.

    Lastly, if any religion teaches that 'harsh lessons' are sometimes right, it makes me want to walk away immediately. I think that the West have been taught some pretty 'harsh lessons' over the recent years, can't say they invoked tolerance and understanding .

  7. #457
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Well ...

    Thank you Cobbers and Harpy for wording your objections to my delivery style <ahem!> kindly

    Apart from minor tweaks if I ever err too far away from forum rules it won't be changing though.

    This last flurry of persoanl attacks appears to have been triggered by this:

    Cupids personal agenda (must confer with Slack over this later ..) goes a bit further.

    He would like to see a world where children are valued so highly that it would break anyones heart that an abortion would ever, as they sometimes are, be neccessary.
    I am sorry for anyone whom that sentiment may have offended.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  8. #458
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Well ...

    Thank you Cobbers and Harpy for wording your objections to my delivery style <ahem!> kindly

    Apart from minor tweaks if I ever err too far away from forum rules it won't be changing though.

    This last flurry of persoanl attacks appears to have been triggered by this:



    I am sorry for anyone whom that sentiment may have offended.

    Well you're wrong there CS, I think people have been objecting to your 'style' pretty much from the word go, doesn't of course mean that we object to you as a person though. Obviously you have every right to stick to your own style of posting, as we retain the right to object and/or use the ignore button .

  9. #459
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I think you make wayyyy too many assumptions about people, BTW, Cupid, and again you are coming off as though we are 'less enlightened' than you, which really is beyond irritating!.

  10. #460
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    ^ exactly.

    I may be overracting, however, i feel very protective of my fellow forum members that have had abortions, for what ever reason that they chose. And I really do not want anyone to put them down. They are my friends.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  11. #461
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Cupids personal agenda (must confer with Slack over this later ..) goes a bit further.

    He would like to see a world where children are valued so highly that it would break anyones heart that an abortion would ever, as they sometimes are, be neccessary.
    Abortion is not the same as infanticide. Abortion is a birth control method of last resort. I think you mentioned that you're also against birth control because it encourages passion without responsibility. But surely using birth control is taking responsibility for avoiding unwanted pregnancies and over-population?

    Do you really think a world without contraception would be a better place?
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  12. #462
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote sandra View Post
    I feel uneasy about the idea that just because an embryo may or may not be sentient this gives us the right to dispose of it.
    Does that mean it's ok for vegans to eat eggs..........they are 'unfeeling' embryos aren't they?
    Or could we perhaps abort a calf or pig foetus before it is 'sentient' (how can we even tell this) and eat it?
    There's a big difference because pigs and chickens are exploited by people. When a woman decides to abort an embryo, she's in control of what's happening to her own body. It's her own choice, not that of someone else who's exploiting her.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  13. #463
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Does that make it any better though Kokopelli?

    I would just like to say that my views on this thread are my own personal views, I am not out to put anyone down. I know everyone has their reasons for deciding to have an abortion and I would never stand in judgement of them. I can only state how I feel about this subject and of course I realise that there will be others with differing opinions to mine.
    I'm not expecting to change anyones views about this, but as I said I can only be true to myself and give my feelings truthfully.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  14. #464
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    nicely put Sandy. And your views should be respected.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  15. #465
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  16. #466
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I understand how people feel about this too and obviously ideally no-one would ever have abortions. Maybe this would be possible with infallible contraception and/or the universal monk-like restraint that Cupid seems to expect from humanity.

    But as I wrote earlier, embryos are very often aborted naturally, passing unnoticed in heavier or later than usual periods. It's part of the natural selection process. In my case, I had taken precautions to avoid pregnancy by having an IUD, which works by preventing embryo implantation. When that failed, I chose abortion. I think it's unrealistic to expect people to only have sex when they want to have babies, therefore contraception is very valuable. Maybe it's even the case that children are more 'highly valued' when family size is limited.

    Would anyone here really want access to legal, medically controlled early abortion to be ended?
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  17. #467
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote kokopelli View Post
    Would anyone here really want access to legal, medically controlled early abortion to be ended?

    No, and that, where I see it, is the difference with this topic. CS keeps likening abortions to meat-eating, but to me, meat-eating is rarely (if ever) justified, I would like it made illegal. Abortions can (sometimes) be justified, and should not be made illegal. Where I do agree with CS is that women should NEVER feel pressured into making their own decision about continuing with a pregnancy, but should always be given all the information possible about the 'options' and the potential consequences (e.g guilt and depression following a termination).

  18. #468
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    you "catch" more flies with honey....
    I dont think that is the case missbettie...

    Not if 'catching flies' involves being an apologetic Vegan. I have been one so I know. Backing off when I felt people were becoming uncomfortable or I was being impolite. I sure as hell never 'caught' anyone. All I did was reinforce the meateaters view of Vegans as lilly livered and lacking conviction.. good only for a cheap laugh over the dinner table.

    Since I 'sharpened up' and stopped compromising I get listened to, respected and no one takes the piss anymore!

    Strangely..most of the techniques I now use I learnt from CS. Techniques which (if I remember rightly) were gratefully taken up by members who had also found that their honey ran out long before any flies landed!



    Slack Alice

  19. #469
    missbettie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I think there are a lot more "loud" Vegans out there than there are "quiet" ones. And i'm sorry. There is no excuse for being RUDE, or HURTFUL. As Vegans in my opinion we should be more compasionate and understanding. Yes sometimes we will be rude, or let our frustrations get the better of us, I know I personally do, but there is no point in be out right mean. I ate meat for 20 years before I became Vegan. I can't look down at anyone. The best thing I can do is live a good example and talk to people about Veganism when I get the chance. People tend to not listen when you're being a jerk.

    And yes. Cobby I totally aggree with you. it is not possible to compare meat eating and abortions. I think CS's point in doing so is to try to make those that are Pro-Choice feel guilty and feel that they are not good Vegans with the comparison. At least thats how it feels.

    Slack I think it takes a balance of strength and compassion to be able to get your point across. You shouldn't feel as though you have to back down for your beliefs. Standing up for yourself is very important. I just think there is a nice way to do it where people are more likely to listen to you, and there is a rude way to do it where people are more likely to look at you and walk away. walking away doesn't solve much.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  20. #470
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I agree with you missbettie. I think there's a tendency for some people to be very strident and hard-line about veganism, especially when they first get into it themselves, in a way that just puts people off. I've found it very interesting having 3 children who are all life vegans, who are self-assured but not evangelising. My daughter's approach is to answer questions from other kids, whose curiosity is inevitably aroused by someone who lives without the animal produce they've been indoctrinated to believe is essential, and to offer delicious vegan food for them to try. I think engaging people in this friendly way shows them that they have a choice, without being judgmental.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  21. #471
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    it is not possible to compare meat eating and abortions.
    We have nine pages of failure to find one argument that justifies abortion on demand that could not be used to justify the on demand eating of meat.

    That is pretty good evidence, that when it comes to killing that but not this, or this but not that, that something about the killing of anything is fundamentally identical.

    Another thing that convices me that the two things are pretty much identical is the shared tactic of that if the message is not liked by the herd then the herd will try to savage the messenger.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  22. #472
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Since I 'sharpened up' and stopped compromising I get listened to, respected and no one takes the piss anymore!
    Slack Alice
    A beautifull rose needs to have it's thorns, m'sweet.

    Else it will be plucked and crushed by 'numpties' ..
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  23. #473
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    if we stop the lifestyle choice at one end, do we also stop it at the other end of the scale and tell childless couples they can't use science like IVF treatment to help them concieve and have children, maybe they were too old to conceive because of putting their careers first, or other lifestyle choices first?

  24. #474
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Another thing that convices me that the two things are pretty much identical is the shared tactic of that if the message is not liked by the herd then the herd will try to savage the messenger.
    In your opinion.

  25. #475
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    CS you don't seem to have answered a question I asked you above, and I would very much like to know the answer, please. Here it is again:

    CS, you have said in another context:

    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...s-say&p=665172

    "the buddha says that although we should teach with gentle lessons first that harsh lessons should be delivered before we walk away and leave another person to continue to suffer, and to be a cause of suffering to others, as a result of their ignorance."

    So here I guess you are trying to teach us "harsh lessons" to stop us causing "suffering", as you see it, as a result of our "ignorance", again as you see it?
    (This, I gather, is the principle you apply in discussions with meat-eaters.)

    However, you wrote above:

    We have nine pages of failure to find one argument that justifies abortion on demand that could not be used to justify the on demand eating of meat.


    That is pretty good evidence, that when it comes to killing that but not this, or this but not that, that something about the killing of anything is fundamentally identical.
    This and other messages of yours seem to imply that you view a pro-choice position as morally equivalent to meat-eating. Is that correct?

    If so it seems to suggest that you would give the answer "yes" to the question I asked before. Would you?

  26. #476
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    We have nine pages of failure to find one argument that justifies abortion on demand that could not be used to justify the on demand eating of meat.
    You've obviously chosen to ignore the post by JaydinNathan, for example.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  27. #477
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    CS you don't seem to have answered a question I asked you above, and I would very much like to know the answer, please. Here it is again:
    CS, you have said in another context:

    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...s-say&p=665172

    "the buddha says that although we should teach with gentle lessons first that harsh lessons should be delivered before we walk away and leave another person to continue to suffer, and to be a cause of suffering to others, as a result of their ignorance."

    So here I guess you are trying to teach us "harsh lessons" to stop us causing "suffering", as you see it, as a result of our "ignorance", again as you see it?

    (This, I gather, is the principle you apply in discussions with meat-eaters.)
    Within the limits of my personal "skillfullness", which may be woefully inadequate ... Yes.

    I know, by direct personal experience (I was a meat eater), that the blocks to 'greater compassion' inherent in eating meat are a cause of suffering to the meat eaters themselves.

    I know, by direct personal experience (I was pro-abortion-on-demand) that identical blocks to 'greater compassion' are inherent in that also.

    However, you wrote above:
    We have nine pages of failure to find one argument that justifies abortion on demand that could not be used to justify the on demand eating of meat.

    That is pretty good evidence, that when it comes to killing that but not this, or this but not that, that something about the killing of anything is fundamentally identical.
    This and other messages of yours seem to imply that you view a pro-choice position as morally equivalent to meat-eating. Is that correct?
    The core morality that "others must die, not simply so as I can live but simply so I can live as I wish" is identical in the 'lifestyle' killing of either animals or our own unborn.

    Yes.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  28. #478
    Manzana Manzana's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    We have nine pages of failure to find one argument that justifies abortion on demand that could not be used to justify the on demand eating of meat.
    We have 9 pages of arguments that go both ways (roughly 75% pro choice and 25% pro life).

    I also would like an answer on why in your opinion an early abortion is morally worse than an IUD or discarding IVF fertilised eggs please.

  29. #479
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    CS, since you believe that a pro-choice position is morally equivalent to meat-eating, I'm not too sure why you started this thread with a question and a poll. You think you know the answer to the question already, and you don't believe there is any room for any other opinions, apparently. So wasn't it a bit of a waste of everyone's time to ask what we thought?

    Or did you just ask the question to expose the "ignorance" of other forum members?

  30. #480
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    CS, since you believe that a pro-choice position is morally equivalent to meat-eating, I'm not too sure why you started this thread with a question and a poll. You think you know the answer to the question already, and you don't believe there is any room for any other opinions, apparently. So wasn't it a bit of a waste of everyone's time to ask what we thought?
    Well, either people are deliberately wasting their time or they feel it is not a waste of time discussing it Harpy.

    Topics of no interest usualy die out in a few posts (I should know some of mine never got that far ..) this one is now on 10 pages.

    Or did you just ask the question to expose the "ignorance" of other forum members?
    M'balls are made of flesh and blood, not of Crystal, Harpy.

    Had I done a topic on an open forum, say; "Can you be a true environmentalist without also being a veg*an?" I would have expected two things though:

    1. A tremendous amount of ignorance (which is sometimes more accurately 'innocence') to be exposed.

    2. A very large percentage of respondents who would eventualy give up attacking the message and gang up on the messenger.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  31. #481
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    M'balls are made of flesh and blood, not of Crystal, Harpy.
    What does that mean?

  32. #482
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Manzana View Post
    We have 9 pages of arguments that go both ways (roughly 75% pro choice and 25% pro life).
    And of the 75% NONE have yet come up with one single justification for the lifestyle genocide of human unborns that could not also be used to justify the lifestyle genocide against animals

    I also would like an answer on why in your opinion an early abortion is morally worse than an IUD or discarding IVF fertilised eggs please.
    I am not at all sure if one is morally worse than t'other to be honest.

    I am totally sure that if one is a greater 'wrong' than t'other, though, that your motivation in asking is soley to use the lesser wrong to justify the greater.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  33. #483
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote harpy View Post
    What does that mean?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_ball

    My balls are indeed objects of great beauty, wonderment and infinite mystery (worthy of reverence and worship, even ..) BUT they do NOT help me to know the future.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  34. #484
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    they do NOT help me to know the future.
    Thanks. I wasn't asking anything about the future, though - I was asking what your motive was in posing the question and poll with which you kicked off the thread?

  35. #485
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post

    I am totally sure that if one is a greater 'wrong' than t'other, though, that your motivation in asking is soley to use the lesser wrong to justify the greater.
    No, my motivation is to point out inconsistencies in your arguments so stop being patronising.

  36. #486
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Had I done a topic on an open forum, say; "Can you be a true environmentalist without also being a veg*an?" I would have expected two things though:

    1. A tremendous amount of ignorance (which is sometimes more accurately 'innocence') to be exposed.

    2. A very large percentage of respondents who would eventualy give up attacking the message and gang up on the messenger.

    So, there you have it, you do believe you 'know' the answer, so yours wasn't really a truly open question to begin with.
    Plus you are really treating us all as though we are wet behind the ears and never taken any time to mull over this and other related topics, aren't you?.
    You feel we're 'ignorant?. So you do think you're better than the rest if us?.
    As for attacking you, nobody is, a lot of people are just fed up with your arrogance, to be blunt.

  37. #487
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    Put it another - this forum is supposed to be like "a dinner party for vegans".
    If you came to my dinner party and posed a philosophical question, then I would expect everyone to be heard, and their opinions to be aired fairly .

    However, if you then became loud and hostile and bullying (and you do come off as more than a little controlling I must say), even though your opinion was in the minority at that dinner party, I would ask you to either stop sulking or leave the dinner party .

    If I thought that you (or anyone else at my theoretical dinner party) had posed a question *simply to rile others and/or try to prove your own agenda* I'd have your coat and hat ready in the blink of an eyelid.

    One thing I cannot abide is game-playing .
    Last edited by Korn; Feb 25th, 2011 at 04:05 PM. Reason: This and another thread is closed for now.

  38. #488
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can you be vegan without also being pro-life?

    I've just closed this and another thread - for now. Here's a few words about why:
    http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...459#post676459
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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