Dairy Farming: Access to inside information ...

[Clueless Git]

Ok peeps, possibly a limited time opportunity this one so just in case anyone is interested:

I have a new freind as of today who runs a dairy farm.

He says he will provide me honest answers to any questions I have for him regarding any aspect of dairy farming.

Was thinking that if anyone here has any questions about dairy farming that they would like an insiders opinion on then I could make a little list.

So, any questions then please fire away!

[Clueless Git]

One question I asked already asked him, btw ...

Q. "What would the natural lifespan of a dairy cow be if it was allowed to live unmilked?"

A. Bit complicated this one: He became quite angry. Not at me but at his own industry and what he has to do to survive within it ...

Apparently, the life of a commercial dairy cows is five years, if it is lucky. That tallied with stats most of us here have probaly already accepted as being basicaly correct?

Surprisingly though the life span of the breed most commonly used for dairy (Freisan-Holstein mix) would not be expected to exceed seven years anyway. (15 years for beef only breeds and up to 25 years for breeds untampered with enough that they could still survive in the wild).

That being, he reckoned, even if they were not being milked at all and just being kept as pampered pets.

This is due, I was told, to the fragility of that particular breed. M'man blamed that on a combination of selective breeding over many years which is being accelerated massively by unprecedented inbreeding caused by so few individual bulls being selected as 'donors' for the artificial insemination process.

[cobweb]

Right, I have a few burning questions that (literally) keep me awake at night, I'd be SO grateful to get honest answers!. Here goes:

Do dairy farmers believe that it's devastating for the cows when their calves are taken?. Do they see and understand the cows getting upset? (I have heard them calling for their calves and it broke my heart). Or do they genuinely think that non-humans don't suffer from emotional trauma?.

If farmers do recognise that it's upsetting and stressful for the cows, do they believe that the upset is in anyway justified by the human lust for cow milk?. What is the justification?.

Do farmers ever feel upset when they have to take the calves away?.

Thankyou, if you can ask I'd be grateful. My parents' best friends have always had a dairy farm but I can't ask them as I know they would feel attacked. They actually asked if I wanted to work for them when I was a teenager because they knew I was an 'animal lover'. They would not consider themselves cruel people. How ironic.

[Clueless Git]

Jeez Cobweb ...

Did you spot the bit where I said "He became quite angry. Not at me but at his own industry and what he has to do to survive within it ..."

The anger I mentioned was pretty extreme btw. When I asked about the lifespans he actualy banged the table wuth sheer fury in his eyes and shouted "IT'S WRONG! IT'S WRONG!".

That accompanied by him occasionaly grabbing my arm and saying things like "You know! You know!" (big emphasis on the 'you' each time) in a way that suggested he was quite overcome by feeling free to say stuff he wouldn't usualy dare to say quite frightened me. Kinda like I sensed a bit of a powder keg inside of him just wanting to be allowed to explode. Wouldn't have minded if the anger was directed at me but it was very clearly anger with himself.

Frankly I'm pretty sure that stuff like the distress of seperated cows and calves is going to come under the heading of things this particular chap hates to do but has to do for his business to survive.

I will do my best to find a way to pose those questions to him for you though.

[cobweb]

But if he feels that strongly he can give up his business.
I used to work in the horse racing industry, I've also had to go out fox hunting in the distant past (part of my job, and a way of life that I basically loved - the country life, fresh air, horses all around me, doing different things every day). Various events happened which led me to realise that what I was doing was contrary to my inner beliefs. Everyone has a choice.

P.S - thanks, if you can ask him, I really am fascinated to know the answer. Having been born and bred in the countryside I *know* that a lot of farmers aren't 'bad' people, so I wonder how and why they can justify these things to themselves.

[fiver]

I'd also like to know what he has to say, Cupid.

This actually reminds me that the documentary 'Peaceable Kingdom' is almost due for release on DVD. It is about numerous people (including farmers) who were unable to continue working in their jobs due to their conscience. Also, the social and economic pressures that encourage people to continue what they are doing. It is not easy for everyone to simply give up their job, as much as we'd hope they would. People have families to support and even though we disagree with their actions, we need to be compassionate. Change does not happen overnight. I have faced certain animal-related dilemmas during my conversion to vegetarianism/veganism and needed to slap myself sometimes, saying 'you're only excusing certain compromises because you were raised to think less of non-human animals!'. No more.

[Risker]

I'd like to know what happens to his cows once they are past their prime, how are they used, for pet food etc? and if they know what kind of money the bits go for (obviously they may not know any of this but they might.)

[Clueless Git]

I'd like to know what happens to his cows once they are past their prime, how are they used, for pet food etc? and if they know what kind of money the bits go for (obviously they may not know any of this but they might.)

Good question and one that I already learned the answer to in the course of the conversation.

Expired dairy cows are sold for beef.

I will try and find out if they fetch a different price to those cows raised only for beef though.

[cobweb]

^ they do, the prices of each were always published in our local 'paper when I lived in Orkney. They are two very different things (normally different breeds for a start). Usually 'beef cows' get to stay with their mothers and are raised on good pasture land, dairy is one of the cruelest industries.

Fiver, how about a bit of compassion from the farmers?. The ones I referred to in my earlier post lived very well indeed. They chose to sell their large farm and move North, buying a smaller one there. They still make a very good living and have the equity tucked away from selling their first farm. All 3 of their kids went to very expensive private schools and they were very comfortable indeed. There is ALWAYS a choice. I have a family relying on me aswell, I have to do what I can to scrape by these days, same as a lot of people, it doesn't have to involve a daily cycle of cruelty.

[fiver]

"Fiver, how about a bit of compassion from the farmers?"

I'm not going to argue with that, cobweb.

[kikifromscotland]

Hmmm the questions I have may come across as a little rude, like he's not 'taking care' of the cows, but... how often does he see cows get mastitis? Does he think pus/ blood gets into the milk? Does he think it's weird that we drink the milk of another species? How much time do his cows get outside? How long do the calves have with their mother before they are separated? What happens to the calves (i.e. what do they end up as ) If he thinks it is cruel why does he do it?

I met a cheese maker once who told me vegetarians were all hypocrites because the cruellest thing he'd ever seen was a calf being taken away from it's mother (I was veggie at the time and this gave me food for thought) does your farmer friend think this is true?

I appreciate if you can't ask him some of these if they are too rude!

[Gattona]

I'd like to know about the extraction of semen from the bulls. I've heard of electroejaculation, digital manipulation and the use of an artificial vagina with a 'teaser' cow. what is most generally used?

Also, why is it that dairy cows have to be repeatedly impregnated? A human woman's milk continues until the demand goes. So if cows work similarly (and I'm making assumptions here) why don't they continue to lactate as long as they are being milked?

Thanks for doing this CS, I hope this person doesn't get too fed up with the questions. Of course, it would be nice if his concience was deedled even more by this. Someone I knew on another list was involved with dairy farming and she said that dairy farming was far more cruel than meat production. She'd never answer my questions though.

[sandra]

I appreciate if you can't ask him some of these if they are too rude!

Ha ha! I wouldn't worry about being 'too rude'..........if he's in the business he is I think he's hardened enough to take it!

Maybe he is so angry/aggressive because he knows what he is doing is wrong....................hopefully he will acknowledge these feelings and get out of dairy farming.

I, personally don't want to ask him any questions.........................I think he already knows the answers to any questions we might ask and that's why he is ill at ease.

[RainInStarlight]

I, personally don't want to ask him any questions.........................I think he already knows the answers to any questions we might ask and that's why he is ill at ease.

[Clueless Git]

Hi all ...

I'm sorry to say that despite his promise the farmer I met has not been in contact with me again

[Owlish]

That's too bad. My grandparents own a dairy farm in New York, but I don't feel that I can ask them questions without them getting offended either. I've kind of always wondered about the lactating thing too. Maybe I can ask about that at least on our next phone call. =3