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Thread: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

  1. #1
    Sgable84's Avatar
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    Default "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    My father is an avid hunter (we have bears, elk, deer, and ducks in our living room ) and he continuously tells me "If we didn't hunt the wild animals, the population would get out of control and they would start starving"

    How do I respond to this as a vegan?

  2. #2
    Johnstuff's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Might not be the best answer but:
    Life keeps a balance on its own, yes sometimes there is population expansion then collapse but over time things will even out IMO. Humans making so much extinct in such a small space of time is messing up the balance.

    Thge global fish stocks (I hate to use that word to describe living beings 'stock') are mostly at the point of collapse due to hunting*. Most of the worlds sharks (dominant predator of the ocean, the life support system of our planet) have been wiped out.

    Basically it is human kind that is f**king everything up and then to pull out a feeble justification like this "they'd overpopulate" is well, feeble IMO.

    The rest of life on Earth doesn't want or need humans to manage them/it IMO.

    *I'm aware that this is commercial hunting not 'sport' hunting, but two wrongs don't make a right.

  3. #3
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Are the populations of those things actually threatening to get out of control where you are, then, Sgable84? Deer, ducks and so forth have predators other than humans in some places.

    There are some areas here where deer populations allegedly need "management" because there are no predators. I'm not sure about this one - I have read about self-limiting populations but if it involves animals starving that doesn't seem so good either.

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    Sgable84's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    Might not be the best answer but:
    Life keeps a balance on its own, yes sometimes there is population expansion then collapse but over time things will even out IMO. Humans making so much extinct in such a small space of time is messing up the balance.
    This is a great true answer.

    Harpy- My dad goes to Alaska, Colorado and Wisconsin to hunt. For sure Alaska doesn't have an issue with out of control populations. Colorado and Wisconsin (according to daddy-o) have issues with over population of deer.

  5. #5
    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    The animals are smart where I live. They come right into town. I've seen them walking down the sidewalks in the middle of town. I guess over-time they've learned that they're much safer in town than they are out in the woods with the wolves, bear, and hunters.

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    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question


  7. #7
    Sgable84's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    We used to have deer just roam freely in town and in the neighborhoods, but the county shot most of them cause they were a hazard to traffic.

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    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Sgable84 View Post
    We used to have deer just roam freely in town and in the neighborhoods, but the county shot most of them cause they were a hazard to traffic.
    That's disgusting We have reduced speeds in town because of the deer. They really are all over the place, and they completely disregard traffic. They'll walk out in front of you and not give it a second thought. We actually had a bear make it's way down in Ontario and it managed to get to London. The police shot it claiming "it lunged at us".... So we weren't able to tranquillize it and put it back where it belongs? No. The best thing to do was just to kill the poor thing. Another London police screw up. Idiots. I hated that province...

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Sgable84 View Post
    We used to have deer just roam freely in town and in the neighborhoods, but the county shot most of them cause they were a hazard to traffic.
    More like the traffic is a hazard to the deer!
    It's just aswell humans aren't shot because they are over populating an area, isn't it?
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    A quote I remember from many years ago, from the League Against Cruel Sports, was that foxhunting (in the UK) was stopped during the world wars and the fox population didn't increase - therefore hunting is not about control of animals, it's about selfish pleasure of mankind.

    I can't find that information on the LACS website, but I found this in the FAQ's

    Q: What do you suggest as an alternative means of fox control?

    A: Let us be absolutely clear, traditional hunting is not about controlling foxes. It is about sport. When hunting was banned during the foot and mouth outbreak evidence showed that this had no significant effect on fox numbers. Foxes are territorial animals and in many cases where one fox is taken out another will move in to take its place. Research has shown that the fox population has remained stable over a long period with and without hunting.


    http://www.league.org.uk/

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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    That's disgusting We have reduced speeds in town because of the deer. They really are all over the place, and they completely disregard traffic. They'll walk out in front of you and not give it a second thought. We actually had a bear make it's way down in Ontario and it managed to get to London.
    Wow - did the bear get on a plane or a ship?


    I apologise. It does sound awful what they did to it, without even trying to tranquilize it first. But it's the same old same old.....(non-human) animal life has little or no value.

  12. #12
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Sgable84 View Post
    My father is an avid hunter (we have bears, elk, deer, and ducks in our living room ) and he continuously tells me "If we didn't hunt the wild animals, the population would get out of control and they would start starving"

    How do I respond to this as a vegan?
    Unfortunately, Sgable84, your dad is partly right.

    Natures methods of population control are starvation and predation. Nature is NOT pretty and personaly I would accept that death by a high powered rifle is probably a lot 'kinder' than starvation or being pulled to bits by packs of wolves.

    There are a couple of good (don't even think about it, LV ..) arguments to use against hunters though:

    1. Statisticaly it takes around ten times the land to support a non-veg*an population that it would take to support a veg*an population. (This being due to the amount of land/space required to house/slaughter/store and grow feed/pasture for livestock.)

    Land 'ring fenced' for livestock use is, ultimately, all habitat that has been taken away from wildlife.

    From that it can reasonably be argued that wild animals would have ten times as much space in which to look after themselves if we culled the numb-nuts meat eaters instead of culling the deer/<insert whatever gives you a stiffie to have lined up in your sights here>.

    Easy with that one though; Meat eaters, in general, tend to get a bit tetchy when you start making arguments that vegans should be issued permits to randomly shoot some of them.

    2. Ask for reasons why it is acceptable to refuse permits to shoot humans who have overpopulated (one child dies of starvation every six seconds because a cow ate his food) and let them starve to death.

    That one is along the lines of: "If hunting is a 'kindness' to stop things dying a horrible death of starvation then shouldn't you guys stop being kind to hungry animals and be kind to all the hungry human beings who need your 'loving help' instead?"
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  13. #13
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    That is soooooo cool!

    Why people want to live where stuff like that lives if they don't want to live with stuff like that simply amazes me ..
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  14. #14
    Sgable84's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Thanks everyone for your advice!

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    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote angie54321 View Post
    Wow - did the bear get on a plane or a ship?


    I apologise. It does sound awful what they did to it, without even trying to tranquilize it first. But it's the same old same old.....(non-human) animal life has little or no value.
    We already have deer around London(not to be confused with the one in the UK ) And you can drive to the Algonquin area in about 4 or 5 hours. The bear could have been moving slowly through the woods. You can go almost anywhere in Ontario while staying under the cover of trees. He could have made it down to the border if he knew where to go Maybe a town further south would have handled the situation better.

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    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    That is soooooo cool!

    Why people want to live where stuff like that lives if they don't want to live with stuff like that simply amazes me ..
    Yeah. I love it over here The deer aren't tame or anything. They were giving me weird looks when I was taking pictures of them, which I think is for the best.... The last thing you want is for deer to start trusting humans and then go back into the woods during hunting season

  17. #17
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hunting Question

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    Yeah. I love it over here The deer aren't tame or anything. They were giving me weird looks when I was taking pictures of them, which I think is for the best.... The last thing you want is for deer to start trusting humans and then go back into the woods during hunting season
    Very wise, I think, back space
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  18. #18
    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Something I've been wondering about lately. In New Zealand there are no native mammals but some were introduced when the Europeans came over. What we do have is lush greenery and birds. Lots of birds. Anyway, opposum fur was a big thing for a while and they were brought over to farm. Well those businesses failed and the farmer's just let them loose in the wild. Bad idea. There is no prey for them. There is so much vegetation that they thrive and are distroying the enviroment. Trees are dying so the birds are dying. Everytime I'm on a tramp I see tramps for the opposums. As a vegan, I can't see agreeing with killing animals, but if it prevents wiping out native species, what else could be done?
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

  19. #19
    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Capture and move to a new home? Either that or the birds may end up finding a new home.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Hi all!

    Because the thread titles had ended up wrong in many of the posts, I un-approved some posts and than approved them again than - since that's the fastest way to edit thread titles inside posts.

    So don't worry if you got a message about having your post un-approved: I did a mistake when editing the original thread title, you did nothing wrong.



    K
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  22. #22
    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Lol, "You've got 5 new messages" Oh goody Post un-approved, post un-approved

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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    Lol, "You've got 5 new messages" Oh goody Post un-approved, post un-approved
    imagine my horror - I'm new, I had only posted 7 times, and I thought I'd had 2 of those un-approved

  24. #24
    Back-Space's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Lol

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote Korn View Post
    Hi all!

    Because the thread titles had ended up wrong in many of the posts, I un-approved some posts and than approved them again than - since that's the fastest way to edit thread titles inside posts.

    So don't worry if you got a message about having your post un-approved: I did a mistake when editing the original thread title, you did nothing wrong.



    K
    Phew.. I thought I was in trouble...
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Quote harpy View Post
    I have read about self-limiting populations but if it involves animals starving that doesn't seem so good either.
    People are starving because of our own over-population and we can't seem to solve that problem. Pretending hunting is being compassionate is just ridiculous. (I'm not saying you were saying that, of course.) They just want to shoot things.

    Quote sandra View Post
    More like the traffic is a hazard to the deer!
    It's just aswell humans aren't shot because they are over populating an area, isn't it?
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  27. #27
    theresnoreason
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    Default Re: "Without hunting, the animals would starve"

    Deers are supposed to have a natural predator. For example, pumas and wolves.

    However, humans have hunted most carnivores to extinction (especially in the USA). Without these natural predators, the deer (and other herbivore) populations increased. What we should do is return the forest back to it's natural balance by reintroducting predators (like wolves and pumas) back into the wild. This will keep the deer population in control.

    The animals lived on earth for thousands, and thousands of years before humans got here, and they did just find without us "controlling" their population.

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