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Thread: Vegans & fish

  1. #1
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  2. #2

    Question New at this...

    Hi. Im new at this vegan thing...I have never liked red meat, milk, butter, or fish so after watching a few PETA videos I decided to go all the way to vegan city. Its hard though because almost everything is made with eggs or milk. Im having a hard time staying strict. I dont ever add milk or butter or even eat chees but how do you avoid the little things you cant help, like bread....how do you swing that? Its made with milk. I dont think it is wrong to eat animals, I am a Christian and I believe God intends us to reside over nature, however I am against the animal torture conducted in slaughter houses, testing labs, and any where else. I stand for Stop Animal Torture but decided to go vegan to set the example. What do I do about fish... Tuna is just swooped up if I get the dolphin safe tuna is that okay? I need to know soon because Im craving some carb free goods. Allright, thats all I have. Please dont attack me for my views, Im up for some persuasion, This is where I stand based on the knowledge I have (which is limited)

  3. #3

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    I am a Christian as well and I believe that dominion compels us to protect animals instead of torturing and murdering them, including the tuna. God is peaceful. Have you read the book Dominion by Matthew Scully? It's a good read and puts things into perspective. Man has perverted what God meant by "dominion."

    There are plenty of vegan breads available. Just check around. Do you have a health food store near you?

    I also don't understand, because you said that you never really liked fish, but then you are thinking about or craving tuna. Vegans do not eat animals or animal byproducts, and that includes tuna. I hope you refrain from eating such items, but if you don't, that's up to you, of course.

  4. #4

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    Eating tuna is more for dieting purposes. So far I havent come across any articles about tuna and pain or torture but if you find one please let me know, and I wil definitely look into that book!!! THANKS!

  5. #5

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    Welcome Thundercat. I know what you mean about bread being tricky... I make sure that all the bread I buy for home use is free of milk and egg by-products, but it's difficult to know when you are eating out or are someone's guest. Sometimes the purity vs. practicality thing can be a challenge.

    Last night I went to a small vegetarian dinner gathering at a restaurant and they served flatbread as an appetizer. Not knowing what was in it, I avoided it. However, a vegan woman at the table ate it without asking any questions. I guess it's just a judgment call.

    My motivation toward veganism is both ethical and spiritual. At this point eating meat is wrong *for me* in and of itself because it involves taking the life of another creature unnecessarily. I don't pass that judgment on others, however.

    I have come to believe that moving toward an animal-free diet is part of humankind's spiritual evolution, and I also believe that a couple of hundred years from now that humans will be eating a mostly vegan diet and will view the eating of animals as barbaric.

    But I digress. Nice to hear from you. We may not agree on everything, but that's what makes life interesting, no?

    Have a good weekend.

  6. #6
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Hello Thundercat! Ditto on what Atlanta and Artichoke have said thus far and here is something I have to add...if you are interested in the "diet thing" and worried aboout carbohydrates, try eating more raw foods. Living and raw foods are cleansing, vibrant and health-building. Also, raw vegetables, with nuts and seeds as sauces and garnish can make lovely, nourishing, filling, enzyme-rich and slimming meals all on their own. Ask for ideas or help if you'd like it and search the recipe forums too!

    Be Well and Welcome!

  7. #7
    gertvegan's Avatar
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    Hello Thundercat, welcome to the board. Heres a Peta website you will be interested to view. www.fishinghurts.com

  8. #8
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    The dolphin-friendly tuna is supposed to be caught in such a way that dolphins don't get caught accidentally at the same time, but it's a bit of a myth that dolphins are not harmed according to this article:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/st...208706,00.html

    This page summarises some arguments against fish eating. http://fishinghurts.com/pain.html

    What are you trying to achieve in your diet, Thundercat? Tell us and maybe we can suggest some vegan alternatives to tuna.

  9. #9

    Wink

    Now that Im vegan I feel that I am almost forced to eat more Carbohydrates from veggies and bread. Im a weight anxious person. Tuna has no carbs and is very healthy for you. Im going to go back and look at some of those websites posted. I read that tuna,shrimp, shellfish...dont feel pain and the main concern is for the by product (dolphins and seaturtles)Ill do some more research.

  10. #10
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    I'm a long-standing vegan who's inclined to be a bit overweight but since the start of the year I've been making a special effort to eat healthily and I've lost over 20 lbs without restricting my food intake at all. All I've done is to cut out junk and convenience food and try and eat foods with a lower glycaemic index (so for example I mostly eat wholegrain rye bread instead of ordinary wholemeal that I used to have before).

    Admittedly I have been trying to take a bit more exercise but all it is is just brisk walking for half an hour to an hour most days plus occasional weight lifting in my bathroom

    So you definitely don't need to eat tuna to lose weight. Even if I didn't have an ethical objection to fish eating (because from what I've read I think they probably do feel pain) I would have reservations about its healthiness because of the pollutants fish often contains.

  11. #11
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Quote Thundercat
    Now that Im vegan I feel that I am almost forced to eat more Carbohydrates from veggies and bread. Im a weight anxious person. Tuna has no carbs and is very healthy for you. Im going to go back and look at some of those websites posted. I read that tuna,shrimp, shellfish...dont feel pain and the main concern is for the by product (dolphins and seaturtles)Ill do some more research.
    Tuna is *not* "very healthy for you". Fish contains various heavy metals, fish basically live constantly bathed in toxic waste and animal proteins are hard on the body. If you need any information about this, just ask or do a Google search under "fish, heavy metals, contaminants"

  12. #12
    gertvegan's Avatar
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    Check out this fishing for facts.

  13. #13

    Default ok no more fish

    Ok OK no more tuna, now Im sick to my stomach!
    Its good though!

  14. #14
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    Default Cute facts about fish!

    i read these in the latest issue of the Ecologist magazine and i thought they were so cute! the info was provided by Fish and Fisheries magazine, "a refereed academic journal which exists to benefit all involved with the broad field of the biology of fish and their exploitation and conservation at a professional level, whether in government, university or international agency research, the fisheries industry or the conservation movement."

    • Fish can learn to avoid nets by studying members of their shoal
    • They can recognise individual members of their shoal
    • One species of South African fish actually uses a tool: it lays eggs on leaves so that it can carry them to a safe place if the need arises
    • Contrary to the goldfish bowl jokes, fish have a memory span of at least three months
    • They communicate with each other using squeaks, squeals, and other low-frequency sounds that humans can hear only with special instruments
    • Some fish keep 'gardens', encouraging the growth of algae they enjoy eating and weeding out types they don't
    • Many fish build nests for their young
    • Fish feel pain: a two-year study conducted by scientists at Edinburgh University and Scotland's Roslin Institute confirmed that fish suffer when they are impaled in the mouth and pulled into an environment in which they cannot breathe


    i wouldn't have needed a two year study to conclude that fish feel pain...but what i really liked was the idea of fish keeping their own little 'allotments' of algae they like to eat ok i'm silly but i wanted to share it
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  15. #15
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    thanks a lot Leigh

    i just loved the idea of little gardening fish LOL

    and of course they're good things to quote when people say things like, 'oh but fish don't count, they can't feel pain, they're not intelligent'
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  16. #16
    Geoff
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    And John Howard has control of both houses of parliament thanks, in part, to a secret deal between the Nationals and the Fishing Party. Apparently, the Nationals will push for a reduction of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park in return for the fish killers preferences.
    There have been studies showing that fish feel pain but the other stuff is new to me and very useful. Thanks Gorilla

  17. #17
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    I wonder if it would be possible to demand that since it has been shown that fish feel pain, then the suffering they endure should be taken into account and fishing practices modified to avoid this suffering? It would be nice if is spelled the end of the oceanic rape that currently occurs but I fear that if the suffering of animals on land is hardly acknowledged - how will the majority develop compassion for our aquatic friends?
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  18. #18
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    Quote veganblue
    ...our aquatic friends?

    Hey! What have you heard? Anyway, not only didn't it happen, but it was an accident, and the "aquatic friend"'s fault either way!



    (sorry - I just liked the formulation of "aquatic friend", and as my mind lives in the gutter...)
    No Gods, No Masters.

  19. #19
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Hey Gorilla - I'm going to email that to my parents. They are avid "fisherpeople" and they know that I hate it - so perhaps this will be some "food for thought" for them Thanks!

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    Quote Gorilla
    thanks a lot Leigh
    i just loved the idea of little gardening fish LOL
    :
    I thought that was adorable too!!!!

  21. #21
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    Thank you Gorilla - where I live practically everyone loves fishing. Among my friends, I've quoted various facts, but these are new to me. Thank you.
    Eve

  22. #22
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    my dad and brother both enjoy fishing, and it makes me very sad. i'd managed to convince my brother to go veggie at the same time i did, but he decided he liked fishing too much to stay veggie (as well as finding the peer pressure too difficult). my dad usually only catches fish such as trout to eat nowadays, but they also used to like fishing just for the 'sport' and would throw many back, and tell me this was ok because the fish weren't killed. i still knew the fish suffer by being taken out of the water and having a hook stuck through their mouths. my parents have a pond in their garden where they keep koi carp and they are very fond of them, but they can't seem to see the connection between 'their' fish and the fish they eat.

    if only this would change the fishing industry, but i believe people have known for years that fish are capable of feeling pain and it doesn't seem to make any difference. it's also a well known fact that fishing is depleting marine life and kills many other species that aren't eaten, but little is done about this either. i was pleased to hear however that around the island of Lundy, off the coast of south west England, they are conducting a no-fishing zone to help sea life recover from years of damage, and conservationists are saying it's been a huge success so far.

  23. #23

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    About a year ago I rescued a goldfish from a friend of mine. He was keeping it in one of those bottles that you make homemade wine in, no gravel, plants or filter. He gave it to me to look after when he went on holiday and I wouldnít give it back to him! He is now much happier in a big tank, with a filter, plants and I bought him some friends. Iíve decided to never buy fish again! I opened my eyes now to fish shops, I didnít realise they were so bad then. They are quite evil, I hate having to buy fish food and plants from them smell shops!

    Even though I have fish that my housemate is welcome to help look after she insisted on buying some for herself the other day. Even though she told me the other week that she used to keep fish but she didnít look after them & tried to starve them to death. Now she has two more to put through hell! They are in a bowl with out a filter which would keep the water in good condition, although they do have some plants at least to give them oxygen and to nibble on. I almost got in a fight with her in the shop when the bought them, she would not believe me that you needed water purifier as tap water burns the poor fishes skin. At the time I didnít know that the reason she wanted to come with me when I was getting some plants for my fish is because she was going to buy some. Maybe she knew that I would try change her mind!

    When I was there I saw some tinny little water snails in a tank, I knew that the owner of the shop didnít like them as they eat the plants, so I asked if I could have them. He gave them to me for free and I saved their lives! My house mates think that I am nuts but they are now living happily on my fish tank.

  24. #24

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    Oh Gorilla,
    Thanks for sharing the fish info. I too love the thought of the fish in their gardens. Imagine mother fish rousing her babies from the nest and taking them out to the garden. Then over the visit their friends.
    I know I could be accused of anthromorphicizing (spelling??) animals but hey, I'm an animal! I feel affection for flies and spiders, brings out the maternal instinct.
    How people could think fish don't feel pain is nuts. Regarding the folks who say fish aren't smart enough to feel pain, they are dumb but wouldn't like it if someone stepped on their toe.

  25. #25

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    It is all my fault; my poor fish!

    About a year ago I rescued a fish from a friend of mine who was badly miss treating it. The fish seemed very frightened and lonely as he wouldnít come out from hiding in the plants, so I bought him some friends (I would never buy from a pet shop now but at the time I didnít realise all the problems associated with buying fish from a fish shop). Now one of his friends has got a lump on his tummy that looks like a spot. It is just under his skin on his belly and if I had the lump it would be the size of a golf ball in comparison.

    In fear of it being cancer (as it is one of those mutant/freak of nature, fat deformed fish) I rang the vets who passed me onto another vet and then onto an aquatics specialist shop. After about a 15minute talk we arrived at the conclusion that it was Ďcarp poxí which apparently doesnít hurt and is caused by alterations in water temperate. My fish has only had this lump for a few days and apart from the lump he is acting normally. It seems that when I cleaned out the tank the other day I made the water too warm for them. At the time I thought it was a little too warm but I was in a rush to get them back into the tank. I had only cleaned the tank out 3 days before but the water had got really dirty because the food flakes I had been feeding them were very fine and had not been eaten.

    Thankfully the man at the aquatics place said it should get better in a few days/weeks. I hope so as it is cancer there is not much that can be done as the fish is so small!

    I will have to be much more careful from now on! I feels so bad : ( It just goes to show that we shouldnít keep fish. I am happy to take anyoneís fish if they arenít looking after them but I will never buy another again! I treat my fish as well as anyone could in a tank situation and watch them everyday to make sure that they are fit and healthy. Sometimes I watch them for hours, people might think that they are boring but I know that each one has itís own personality! The two fish that stand out the most is Nemo (my housemates named him), an albino minnow who loves to chase all the other fish even though he is much smaller then them. Actually he is a bit of a bully but never bites the other fish, he just likes tormenting them for no apparent reason. When I fist got him I was a bit worried that he would feel left out, being the only small fish, but I think he seems to love it! He even does a strange kind of dance sometimes, it is hard to explain but he flicks his tummy of the bottom of the tank and it seems to be a happy response. He is always the last fish I catch when I am cleaning the tank out, he is so fast and really intelligent. Much more than the big dopy fish that donít make much of an effort to get away. He makes me laugh so much, he is like one of those kids that do the most naughtiest things but you canít tell them off because you are too busy laughing at the thing they did.

    The other fish doesnít have a name, he is a loach and is one of those fish that stay at the bottom of the tank or suck onto the side of the tank. He doesnít swim much but prefers to use his fins to walk across the bottom of the tank. When he does swim it is only so that he can sit on the large ceramic horse I put in the tank. It is so funny, he perches himself on the horses head and surveys his kingdom. Even my housemates love to watch the fish. I should film them and then add voices to represent each fish, it would make interesting watching. Maybe it would make people realise that they are intelligent and need more than a bowl of untreated water to live in. As well as good water quality, they need stimulation in the form of other fish to interact with, plants to swim among and nibble, gravel to forage for food in, places to hide and current to swim against.

  26. #26
    PinkFluffyCloud
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    I have a really old, huge Goldfish called Jemima.
    One of her eyes has fallen out (!) but she seems not to notice much - hard to tell, of course.
    Over the years I have had tropical fish, too. They get lots of weird problems, and sometimes attack and even eat one another!! My last lot died because we had a local power failure which lasted a week, so there was no pump or heating for them, in the middle of Winter. This just shows how unfair fish-keeping is.

  27. #27

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    It is strange how fish can seemingly die of the simplest things but survive terrible inflictions. Like your fish which has lost an eye! A few years ago my parents had this big Golden Orf in their pond. They had it for about 10 years or more when the cat or herring (not sure which) managed to take a huge chunk out of its side. I have no idea how it managed to survive but it did for a few more years until the cat managed to get it! I was so angry!!!!! It was horrible when I found all the fish scales in the cats fur, as he had obviously frolicked in the scales that were left on the patio after he had eaten it : ( I cried as we had the fish since I was little. I felt it was my fault for not having a net over the pond but the frogs kept getting tangled in it.

  28. #28
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Trendygirl
    It was horrible when I found all the fish scales in the cats fur, as he had obviously frolicked in the scales that were left on the patio after he had eaten it : (
    oh man that's gross, i forgot i have a phobia of fish scales (back to the phobia thread for that one!) but also gross that the poor fish got eaten of course

    i'm glad you're giving your fish a good home Trendygirl. it sounds like you really look after them well. my parents have kept fish (some koi carp and some goldfish) for years, first in a tank indoors but they grew too big so my dad dug a large deep pond in our garden for them one of the fish got sunburnt one summer, and it had a big ulcer on its head. it liked to stick its head out of the water and catch some rays LOL and my dad had to buy it some special medicine, it was difficult to find a vet who could help. a few of them have been eaten by local cats, despite my folks putting a net over the pond recently one of the fish looked like it was dying, it was floating on its side and hardly breathing and my parents were considering 'putting it out of its misery'. luckily they couldn't bring themselves to do it because it seemed to just get better all of a sudden and now it looks fine
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  29. #29

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    Thanks for that Gorilla! I do try my best to look after them, when I saw my fish with itís lump I was willing to take it to the vets. That would have meant spending the last of my food money as my student loan still hasnít come through. I would eat only rice if it meant that the fish was ok. However I donít think that the vets would have really been able to help and I would be frightened that it might die from the shock of it all : (

    Your parents sound like they really look after there fish! I went on a day trip to a castle and they had a pond with a few carp in and they were so docile. They seemed to like sunbathing (although the water might have been short of oxygen as it can on hot days) and getting close to the humans who were looking at them. Maybe it is like cats who sunbath so much that they get cancer on their ears?

    My uncle had a pond and in the summer one of their fish kept jumping out of the water and landing on the pavement. My uncle had to keep picking the fish up and putting it back in the pound but after a number of attempts at suicide, it succeeded : ( Why do fish jump out? When I fist got my tank I didnít have a lid that covered the whole of the top of it. One day I was looking at my fish and realised that one of the fish had disappeared. Realising that it had jumped out of the tank, I started to frantically look around for the fish. When I eventually found it 1m away from the tank under the chair by the radiator it was too late. I was horrified and I still blame myself for itís death now! I knew that fish jump out of the water sometimes and I should have had a net over the gap. I am now so careful to make sure that the net is there at all times

  30. #30

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    Trendy,
    thanks for sharing the story about the fish personalities. I knew some folks who raised koy as ornamental fish and they said the fish had different personalities. I'm glad you are helping the fish have better lives than with their original caregiver.

  31. #31
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    did anyone ever raise those 'sea monkeys'?

    i bought some for my daughter (pre-vegan days) and we grew them on for a while - but daughter was very disappointed for one reason. in the adverts about them they always have crowns on and have little aprons and are doing 'human' things, she thought she would see them doing the same sort of stuff - bless!

  32. #32
    PinkFluffyCloud
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    What the dickens is a Sea-Monkey.
    Aprons..............are you going mad, Aunty Cedar??????????????????

  33. #33
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    my boyfriend bought some sea monkeys many years ago and they were just tiny specks floating in the water....i still thought it was cruel though

    PFC and anyone else who has no idea what they are have a look at the official sea monkey page: www.sea-monkeys.com

    Trendygirl, that's so sweet that you'd be willing to spend your food money on vet bills for your fish, but as you say it might have done more harm than good. what a shame that your fish jumped out of the tank, but i think a lot of fish do that for some reason. i think that happened to my one of the fish in my parents' pond. i think they do really look after their fish but as i said before it's a shame they can't see the connection with the fish they care for and the fish they eat.
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  34. #34

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    Just to let everyone know that my fish is all better now! YEAH! I was so worried about it, my house mates must have thought that I was nutts. Well anyway there was a bit of puss coming out of the lump (how gross) and when that came away the lump went down stright away and is now gone altogether.

  35. #35
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    Gorilla, thanks for the info - weird!!

    Trendy - glad your fish is better.

  36. #36
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    well its not cute but its good - just spotted redwoods 'fish' fingers and 'fish' cutlets in waitrose.

    request it from your local if they dont have it - tell them welwyn-garden-city branch in hertfordshire have it!!!

  37. #37
    PinkFluffyCloud
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    Hell, Waitrose is a bit posh for the likes of me!!!

  38. #38
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    Quote PinkFluffyCloud
    Hell, Waitrose is a bit posh for the likes of me!!!


    well...you've either got it or you havent

  39. #39
    mikdez
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    Default Eating fish: Is veganism only about not causing physical pain?

    Hi everyone,

    I just recently turned vegan about 3 weeks ago, and I'm really surprised at how smoothly my transition has been. However, I have recently been craving sushi, especially sea urchin, and I was wondering if anyone knew whether or not sea urchin is considered an animal that experiences suffering.

    I also was wondering if anyone knows in depth about the differences between conscious suffering and just feeling pain. I have read some articles saying that some animals such as a lobster do not have pain receptors and a cerebral cortex, but if you try to boil one, they start clawing their way out like their life depended on it. The other article I read explained that some animals have pain receptors and natural reactions to pain but may lack the ability to consciously suffer.

    I'm pretty confused about how I should define my new found veganism, if someone could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.

    Thanks,
    Miki

  40. #40
    I eve's Avatar
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    If a living being is in pain, well of course they are suffering. I don't know anything about sea urchins, but if they are plants, they are ok to eat, otherwise, forget it.

    It's great that you decided a few weeks ago to take on a vegan lifestyle, and neither you nor all the animals will regret it. Just try a few different foods, there are so many recipes on-line.
    Congratulations.
    Eve

  41. #41
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    Quote mikdez
    I have read some articles saying that some animals such as a lobster do not have pain receptors and a cerebral cortex, but if you try to boil one, they start clawing their way out like their life depended on it.
    Lobsters have a complex nervous system and certainly do feel pain! They don't even have a way of numbing their pain as we do through the release of natural pain dullers, so they suffer when boiled until their nervous system is completely destroyed. Of course, I have seen lots of statements by companies who sell lobsters stating otherwise, referencing scientific writings from 1980.

    Personally, I think not letting an animal live it's life out the way it would want to naturally is suffering enough.

  42. #42
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    I forgot to include my second reason for seeking information about suffering and pain... I was watching a discovery channel program about farming and how they kill thousands and thousands of insects to keep crops from being damaged, and I actually felt pretty bad for those insects. After thinking about it for a while, I realized that every experience I have had with killing an insect resulted in me being frustrated because the insect just didn't seem to want to die. Also, I know that insects have nervous systems too, so I know I can't base my veganism solely on the "complex nervous system=suffering" idea.
    If some sea animals cannot sense their pain, but struggle to survive just like an ant or a fly might, then aren't they free game to eat since thousands or insects die for our vegetables?

    Please don't bite my head off for this, I am just trying to find answers to questions I feel are important.

    Thanks,
    Miki

  43. #43
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    I absolutely understand. Actually, this whole area is unsure and widely debated. We have yet to find a way to know for SURE whether or not these beings experience pain, which is why many who base their beliefs on the fact of pain prefer to keep from purposefully harming insects because of the possibility they suffer.

    If this is truely the defining area you feel is the focal point of your lifestyle, then you must decide for yourself what you believe in terms of pain and suffering.

    Because I think it's on topic, I'm going to discuss other focal points besides the basic "feeling pain" point of suffering. For instance, I think of using any animal for our own purposes causes them to "suffer". I feel it takes away the whole purpose of thier existance if we destroy it for ourselves. Another focal point is on harm itself, as limiting the harm we cause to others as much as we can. The reasons for this, for why we should not cause harm, are interpreted in different ways for many different people.

  44. #44
    Useless Dork Tofu Monster's Avatar
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    Quote mikdez
    After thinking about it for a while, I realized that every experience I have had with killing an insect resulted in me being frustrated because the insect just didn't seem to want to die.
    that's a pretty strange statement my friend.

    this whole thread thread smells a bit 'fishy' to me (pun intended).

    approaching veganism from a kind of 'are there any animals it's okay to eat?' angle seems very bizarre to me.

    nobody is going to claim that being vegan eradicates suffering. but it does reduce it. and the more people that live a vegan lifestyle, the more suffering that is going to be avoided, which can only be a good thing.

    at the end of the day, pain and suffering (and ultimately death) are all part and parcel of being a living, sentient being. that's nature's way and we can't change it. but those of us with a more 'enlightened' worldview can at least do our part to minimize the unnecessary suffering that our fellow humans inflicts on themselves and countless other species through ignorance and greed.

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    Quote Tofu Monster
    this whole thread smells a bit 'fishy' to me (pun intended).
    Me to, kind of like picking holes.

    Where do some people get off causing harm to any creature. Surely if it can if it can crawl, walk, swim, fly, jump etc, its used as a means of survival, avoiding harm, and staying alive. I don't wish to cause harm.

  46. #46
    mikdez
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    Quote gertvegan
    Me to, kind of like picking holes.

    Where do some people get off causing harm to any creature. Surely if it can if it can crawl, walk, swim, fly, jump etc, its used as a means of survival, avoiding harm, and staying alive. I don't wish to cause harm.
    My question to you is then... dont many crawling, walking, swiming flying insects die by the thousands so that we can eat vegetables?

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    Quote mikdez
    My question to you is then... dont many crawling, walking, swiming flying insects die by the thousands so that we can eat vegetables?
    Absolutely, but that doesn't justify the (ab)using of other creatures.

    A vegan lifestyle is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. I'll go along with that.

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    John's Avatar
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    Quote Tofu Monster
    this whole thread thread smells a bit 'fishy' to me (pun intended).
    I'm glad that I wasn't the only one.

    There was a guy who wrote a book called something like, "Everything I ever Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarden." I never read that book, but when I was in kindergarden they taught me that two wrongs don't make a right.

  49. #49
    mikdez
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    I really don't understand why everyone is more focused on how "fishy" my topic is as opposed to the topic at hand which is suffering. I think finding the right answers to these types of tough questions can strengthen a person's views on veganism. How can we ever learn and be better at what we do if we dont question things.

  50. #50
    mikdez
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    Quote gertvegan
    Absolutely, but that doesn't justify the (ab)using of other creatures.

    A vegan lifestyle is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. I'll go along with that.
    I completely agree with your definition of veganism... I want to prevent suffering just as much as anyone else, but if a fish and an insect cannot consciously know pain and suffering, then why should we not eat fish.

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