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Thread: Vegans & fish

  1. #101
    boomer's Avatar
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    Almost a quarter of all the sea creatures caught in global fisheries are killed and discarded. The fishing industry refers to these 'non-targeted' species as bycatch. They are also known as fish, whales, dolphins, porpoises, fur seals, albatrosses and turtles.
    You may feel that there is no suffering, you are in a majority of 1 on this forum, no matter what you say you will never convince me that it is ok to kill a fish to eat.

    Everytime I breath I take in organisms and bacteria that are living are you suggesting we should avoid that as well.

    You may be Vegan but your arguements are to say the least odd for a vegan and that is why you are questioned.

  2. #102
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    Quote boomer
    Almost a quarter of all the sea creatures caught in global fisheries are killed and discarded. The fishing industry refers to these 'non-targeted' species as bycatch. They are also known as fish, whales, dolphins, porpoises, fur seals, albatrosses and turtles.
    You may feel that there is no suffering, you are in a majority of 1 on this forum, no matter what you say you will never convince me that it is ok to kill a fish to eat.

    Everytime I breath I take in organisms and bacteria that are living are you suggesting we should avoid that as well.

    You may be Vegan but your arguements are to say the least odd for a vegan and that is why you are questioned.
    I don't care if I am questioned, I want to be questioned to make my beliefs stronger... If someone here were to prove to me that fish can experience suffering, then I would be able to feel more at ease with my veganism. However, knowing that fish may not experience suffering is what bothers me. I think if after all this arguing, I did decide to eat fish, I would probably just catch it on my own or research various fishing companies and their practices, much like someone would do if they want to eat nonhormone pumped, genetically engineered vegetables.

  3. #103
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    Quote 1vegan
    Fish do feel pain.

    I've read some research from the university of Wageningen, aimed to see how they could extend "shelf live" of fish.

    They did measure "brain" activity.

    I will see if I can still find it on my drive later today
    I have read quite a few articles supporting both sides, so I don't think it will help any, but ill read it anyway

  4. #104
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    Would you not be more at ease, knowing that you haven't caused the death of a living being intentionally so you can eat it. Why should the issue of suffering cloud the fact that it has died.

    I would think that gasping for breath on a bank or beach is suffering. I can't prove that but I don't want to, the need to do that to a fish is not in me.

  5. #105
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    Quote mikdez
    Ok have you read anything that I have written previously. Do you realize that insects are living creatures that are massacred so that you can eat vegetables? I DO NOT want to cause the death of any living creature, but as a human I must eat something; therefore, I think we should draw the line at suffering (just like vegeanoutreach.org has) and if fish do not suffer because they dont have the brain capacity to then it should be ok to eat them. Does any of this make sense to you?
    I'm going to start quoting myself now because it seems that you haven't read this before.

  6. #106
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    Quote mikdez
    I completely agree with your definition of veganism... I want to prevent suffering just as much as anyone else, but if a fish and an insect cannot consciously know pain and suffering, then why should we not eat fish.
    If you get frustrated by killing insects, you'll probably get frustrated by killing fish as well, so by not killing fish or insects you even reduce psychological pain in your self. It's a gain/gain situation, isn't it?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  7. #107
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    Quote mikdez
    I have read quite a few articles supporting both sides, so I don't think it will help any, but ill read it anyway
    So, if you have read info supporting both sides, would you want to
    a) go for a lifestyle that MIGHT create suffering in others (since you don't know)
    b) or would you avoid eating fish, which you KNOW will not cause suffering for that fish?

    And - what does it look like the fish is feeling when it's being caught... pleasure or pain?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  8. #108
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    Quote mikdez
    I don't care if I am questioned, I want to be questioned to make my beliefs stronger...
    Isn't that brainwashing? You have decided what you want to believe in first, and then you want to try to strengthen that belief? Veganism isn't a religion or a belief system. My humble advice is not to try to strengthen your beliefs. Just think, see, feel... that's more than enough.

    If someone here were to prove to me that fish can experience suffering, then I would be able to feel more at ease with my veganism.
    Why does it keep you away from feeling at ease if someone at some point in history could prove that fish couldn't feel pain? Because you missed a chance to kill a fish - which you don't need for your health anyway?

    I think this is rather simple. It's all about what you do when you 'don't know'. You can't base all your decisions on scientific research alone anyway - new results are cropping up every day, and life is too short.

    A fish has two eyes and a mouth, just like you. What is it that makes you consider even trying to kill that fish? Why would you do that? If you try, it will definitely behave like other animals that someone tries to hurt and kill.

    Imagine a tent and a gun. You might or might not shoot a bullet into that tent - after all, you don't know if someone is in there, and therefore you don't know if anyone will feel any pain as a result of your bullet. What do you do? You do NOT shoot - because you don't know. Would you have trouble feeling at ease with your non-shooting in case you could have fired that gun without causing harm to anyone? No.

    Life isn't always complicated!

    However, knowing that fish may not experience suffering is what bothers me.
    What would that bother anyone?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  9. #109
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    hmmm..www.veganoutreach.org
    what do you know of this site mikdez?

    it has some VERY interesting ideas

    especially that it seems ok to define your own type of veganism found here depending on your own ideas and gauges (scroll down to 'define yourself. interestingly defined by 'fred FISHman'!

    here seems to be the vegan outreach definition of being vegan (its in the first line of the introduction if you scroll down a little) seems a lot like fish is not to be eaten to me.

    maybe you could discuss your issues with outreach regarding the fish thing? on one side it seems you can define yourself and on the other side it seems quite clear that fish is not to be eaten

    just my 2 pence worth

  10. #110
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    sorry i dont think that link about the vegan outreach definition of being vegan is working, so from www.veganoutreach.org, click on health and then on staying a healthy vegan. the intro section is down a little way.

  11. #111
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    Quote Korn
    Isn't that brainwashing? You have decided what you want to believe in first, and then you want to try to strengthen that belief?

    I have chosen to be vegan and to strengthen that choice, I am questioning it. By questioning my veganism and finding answers to those quesetions, I can truly defend my position on not eating animals. Don't you think it would have been great if a Nazi soldier were to question the acts of their group instead of blindly doing as they were told?

  12. #112
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    Quote Korn
    *Why does it keep you away from feeling at ease if someone at some point in history could prove that fish couldn't feel pain? Because you missed a chance to kill a fish - which you don't need for your health anyway?
    I meant that I would feel more at ease knowing that my position on veganism was much more solid and scientifically supported. I am volunteering with a vegan group in college, and when some student asks me about eating fish, I want to be able to say that It has been scientifically proven that fish can experience pain and suffering. However, I can't do that, I can only do what you guys are doing, which is looking at the fish and seeing its reactions. I think those reactions of running away from predators and things that could potentially kill them are similar to reactions that a fly or an insect has.

  13. #113
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    If you feel and think 'what's wrong with eating fish', the term vegan might not be your cup of tea, and then it's better to find what and who you agree and disagree with out first, and then later try to figure out what label fits you the best (if you feel that you need one). Anyway, I think it always os a good idea to question ones own decisions.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  14. #114
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    Quote Korn
    If you get frustrated by killing insects, you'll probably get frustrated by killing fish as well, so by not killing fish or insects you even reduce psychological pain in your self. It's a gain/gain situation, isn't it?
    I get frustrated with killing anything that suffers or feels pain. I really can't have sympathy for the carrot that died, but I do have appreciation. The same goes for killing insects for our vegetables, if they do not suffer then I can only appreciate their death for my food. Therefore, I would do the same with fish, if they did not feel pain.

    I know what you are saying Korn, "its better to be safe than sorry," which is what i am going by. However, what IF it was completely proven that fish did not suffer or experience their pain? Would vegans be allowed to eat fish that were not fished with huge nets under this definition?
    "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans." (http://www.veganoutreach.org/starter...a.html#insects)

  15. #115
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    Exploitation would still be exploitation, cruelty free or not.

  16. #116
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    Quote Korn
    If you feel and think 'what's wrong with eating fish', the term vegan might not be your cup of tea, and then it's better to find what and who you agree and disagree with out first, and then later try to figure out what label fits you the best (if you feel that you need one). Anyway, I think it always os a good idea to question ones own decisions.
    According to you all, I might not be a vegan, but why? Is it because I don't eat anything that causes suffering to another organism? No, no, that can't be it. It must be the fact that I am questioning everyones beliefs and therefore I must not be one of you guys.

  17. #117
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    Quote mikdez
    However, what IF it was completely proven that fish did not suffer or experience their pain?
    Being vegan isn't only based on the pain issue. There are many aspects to forcing another living being to die. I'm not saying that humans and fish are equal, but there are actually humans that are not able to feel pain, namely those who suffer from 'familial dysautonomia' (wait... do they really suffer - yes they do). Does a diagnosis of familial dysautonomia give you the right to kill this person?

    Would vegans be allowed to eat fish that were not fished with huge nets under this definition?
    Allowed... by whom? The vegan movement was born out of a need to define a term, a group of people, an attitude towards other animals that went further than just not killing them. Not just to not cause pain, but out of reverence, respect for life.


    Regarding the very vague "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans"... you might know that many people who consider themselves vegan look at veganoutreach as not being quite in tune with the vegan movement. There are some other discussions about this on our (and other) forums. To put 'reasonable' into this sentence makes the whole thing very floating, because maybe someone in Lappland thinks it reasonable to eat fish because they can't grown any food there in the winter, due to the snow, and maybe someone in a poor country finds it reasonable to kill an animal because they are very hungry and have no money. Are samis who eat fish or reindeer, or poor people in the third world who eat deer vegans? No. Not by any definition of the word. I'm not saying that I wouldn't eat a yogurt if I had the choice between dying or eating dairy products, but if I did, it wouldn't be a vegan meal.

    It's important not to distort the meaning of the word - for several reasons, convenience and communication with others being two of them. A person who is against killing and harming living, feeling beings, and who doesn't use (eg. eat, buy, cook) meat or dairy products, and who also avoids using other animal products as much as possible is a vegan.

    'As much as possible is less vague' than 'reasonable'. If a kid is playing on the lawn a warm summer day, he might step on and kill an insect. But no vegan ever suggested that vegans should walk on places where there might be small insects in the ground. There are religious groups that, before plowing a field, scans it for insects and other living beings in order not to kill them when cultivating the soil, but the vegas aren't known to go that far. Likewise, in the macrobiotic movement, which is mainly vegan, they 'approve' eating fish or other animals if people live in an area where plants do not grow. The word vegan, when used about food, is exclusively used about plant food - unlike 'macrobiotic', for example. A vegan family wouldn't even settle in an area where plants where not available for food, because they are against killing and harming other animals.

    Sometimes the definition of a word just needs to simple and precise, in order to have a function. If I would eat that yogurt to survive, I wouldn't be a vegan when I did it - but I would still do it instead of dying. I don't think it's wise to use extreme situations as a basis for defining words like vegan. It just makes it unnecessarily complicated.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  18. #118
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    Quote mikdez
    According to you all, I might not be a vegan, but why? Is it because I don't eat anything that causes suffering to another organism? No, no, that can't be it. It must be the fact that I am questioning everyones beliefs and therefore I must not be one of you guys.
    If any group associated with dietary choice is known to 'question everyones beliefs', it is vegans. It's just that words need to have a definition, otherwise, we wouldn't need them. We couldn't communicate well if we should paint a building and my definition of red would equal your definition of grey. If you think killing or eating someone is OK if he doesn't feel pain, you just don't fit with the term vegan. I assume that would not want to become food, even if you were on medications that totally deprived you from all the sensations of the body, so we might not disagree, after all.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  19. #119
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    Quote Korn
    If you think killing or eating someone is OK if he doesn't feel pain, you just don't fit with the term vegan. I assume that would not want to become food, even if you were on medications that totally deprived you from all the sensations of the body, so we might not disagree, after all.
    Are you Ok with killing thousands of insects?

  20. #120
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    Quote mikdez
    Are you Ok with killing thousands of insects?
    I might start quoting myself ........

    Quote me
    Our acceptance of acts that lead to accidental or unintended deaths does not require the acceptance of acts that lead to intentional deaths.

  21. #121
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    Animal products are used everywhere, and animals are killed and harmed everywhere. Whenever someone use this as an argument for harming/killing even more animals, my response is always that because animals are hurt so much, I see no reason to cause more harm to them. In short; if eating plants from commercial agriculture really bothers you because of the insect issue, my humble advice is that you should even grow your own plants in a totally non-harming way or learn to live with the situation.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  22. #122
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    Quote Korn
    Animal products are used everywhere, and animals are killed and harmed everywhere. Whenever someone use this as an argument for harming/killing even more animals, my response is always that because animals are hurt so much, I see no reason to cause more harm to them. In short; if eating plants from commercial agriculture really bothers you because of the insect issue, my humble advice is that you should even grow your own plants in a totally non-harming way or learn to live with the situation.
    So.... are you Ok with killing thousands of insects for your food?

  23. #123
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    No, not when I think about it, because I don't kill insects myself. But if people should focus on animal (or human) suffering whenever suffering happens, I mean, really *focus*, people would go insane. I'm not thinking of what the musical instruments I listen to are made of I put on a CD either, and I think that's the way it should be.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  24. #124
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    Quote Korn
    No, not when I think about it, because I don't kill insects myself. But if people should focus on animal (or human) suffering whenever suffering happens, I mean, really *focus*, people would go insane. I'm not thinking of what the musical instruments I listen to are made of I put on a CD either, and I think that's the way it should be.
    Isn't a lot of being a vegan not supporting people who do cause suffering to animals? Just because you dont kill insects yourself, does not mean that farmers are not for your food.

  25. #125
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    Quote mikdez
    Just because you dont kill insects yourself, does not mean that farmers are not for your food.
    You are right. I'm supporting people who cause suffering to animals if I buy a CD, drive a car, listen to the radio, or write this message. I even support these people if I buy an organic plant grown by holy men who have never killed an insect in his life if the driver who brought the plant to health food store is buying a burger for his salary. If I buy a stamp in the post office, and the woman who is paid to sit there is eating meat, I'm supporting her and her meat budgets. That's where the definition "A person who is against killing and harming living, feeling beings, and who doesn't use (eg. eat, buy, cook) meat or dairy products. Vegans also avoid using other animal products as much as possible" comes in.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  26. #126
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    Quote Korn
    That's where the definition "A person who is against killing and harming living, feeling beings, and who doesn't use (eg. eat, buy, cook) meat or dairy products. Vegans also avoid using other animal products as much as possible" comes in.

    Quote Korn
    Regarding the very vague "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans"... you might know that many people who consider themselves vegan look at veganoutreach as not being quite in tune with the vegan movement. There are some other discussions about this on our (and other) forums. To put 'reasonable' into this sentence makes the whole thing very floating, because maybe someone in Lappland thinks it reasonable to eat fish because they can't grown any food there in the winter, due to the snow, and maybe someone in a poor country finds it reasonable to kill an animal because they are very hungry and have no money.
    When you say, "as much as possible" that is the same as veganoutreach saying "someone who REASONABLY avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans." Aren't you refuting yourself when you make that comment.

  27. #127
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    As I have indicated, I think 'as much as possible' covers more than just 'reasonable', but I can see that I could also have used the word 'reasonable'. There is a great chance, however, that person A would mean something different with 'reasonable' than person B, who might find it reasonable to eat wild animals in certain geographical areas, eat fish in arctic areas, or eat anything and still call it vegan if you are poor enough. I don't think opening up for eating animal products in some situations and still call it vegan is a good idea, and I'm convinced that at least 99 out of 100 vegans will agree with me in this.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  28. #128
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    I think the point of this thread needs to shift from suffering to the idea of non-exploitation, which is where gert was trying to take it above. Veganism is more than not wanting animals to suffer, it's also not wanting to exploit animals by assuming they are for human use and consumption. This is the view to decide if you agree or disagree with.

  29. #129
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    Veganism - A way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practical, all forms of exploitation of animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

    To me it is a simple definition for a simple lifestyle. If you say to the majority of people 'I am a Vegan' they will have a pretty accurate idea of what we do/do not eat - this is due to how veganism has been defined since its inception.

    I cannot see the benefit in blurring the boundaries to include fish/eggs etc if a 'vegan' individual has ascertained to themselves that no suffering has occured in obtaining whichever animal product it is they have decided to use/consume.

    As has been stated before, whether or not fish feel pain is immaterial - to take the life of the fish is to exploit its life in order to fill your stomach - not very vegan at all really is it??
    Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
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  30. #130
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    Yeah, that definition is pretty accurate, and also includes 'as far as possible', which is good, because a vegan may still buy a shirt from someone who will buy a burger for his salary within that definition. I still think it's important to make it clear that the word vegan never includes animal products for food. When it comes to food, IMO it should be 'never', not 'as far as possible'. I don't want to buy food at a vegan cafe in Kiruna and discover that the vegans up there use butter instead of plant oil because it's not 'possible' or 'practical' to get/grow plants and make plant oils locally due to the cold climate.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  31. #131
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    Quote julieruble
    I think the point of this thread needs to shift from suffering to the idea of non-exploitation, which is where gert was trying to take it above. Veganism is more than not wanting animals to suffer, it's also not wanting to exploit animals by assuming they are for human use and consumption. This is the view to decide if you agree or disagree with.
    I agree - and/but remember that causing psychological pain also is harming.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  32. #132
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    Alrighty...I am pretty much done with this thread... I think I have made my point pretty clear and for those who don't get it. sorry.
    Also the point of this thread was to talk about suffering and pain of animals and insects. You all have still not convinced me that killing an insect is any different than killing a fish. If you base your argument solely on the fact that they run away in the face of danger, then you could say the same thing about a fly flying away from a slapping hand.

    Anway, I hope you all have a great year.

    Peace,
    miki

  33. #133
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    Quote mikdez
    I think I have made my point pretty clear and for those who don't get it.
    Yes, you are pretty clear that you would kill and eat a fish if it didn't feel pain.

    You all have still not convinced me that killing an insect is any different than killing a fish.
    We haven't even tried. The difference is that it's possible to live in our society without eating or killing fish, but it's practically impossible to live in any society without harming or killing an insect if you ever take a walk, drive a car or use a bicycle - or dig in the earth to plant an apple tree.

    You seem to look for a definition that goes further than the normal use of 'vegan': a term that implies that one should never directly or indirectly, intentionally or without intention, do anything that possibly could cause harm to an insect. Maybe there is a word for this, but this is a lifestyle that covered by the word 'vegan'.

    If this ideology should imply that one never would support anyone that possibly could harm insects or animals, you wouldn't be able to interact with anyone in our society.

    I wonder why you are interested in this extremely pure lifestyle, because according to what you write, you would kill a living being, a fish, if you found out that it didn't feel pain. You don't seem to be interested in killing and harming other living beings as little as possible. Yet you claim to be a vegan.

    You didn't reply to the question if you would kill a human being if it couldn't feel pain. Maybe it's time to ask yourself some questions before you continue to try to convince us that we are not able to convince you that 'we are right'...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  34. #134
    mikdez
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    Why did you change the title and move it to the "not vegan yet" forum

  35. #135
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    Quote mikdez
    Why did you change the title and move it to the "not vegan yet" forum
    because you're a pain in the arse?

  36. #136
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    hehe you are stupid and funny at the same time

  37. #137

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    Quote mikdez
    According to you all, I might not be a vegan, but why? Is it because I don't eat anything that causes suffering to another organism? No, no, that can't be it. It must be the fact that I am questioning everyones beliefs and therefore I must not be one of you guys.
    Questioning vegan beliefs? Isn't that what this forum is here for?

  38. #138

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    Quote mikdez
    I don't care if I am questioned, I want to be questioned to make my beliefs stronger... If someone here were to prove to me that fish can experience suffering, then I would be able to feel more at ease with my veganism. However, knowing that fish may not experience suffering is what bothers me. I think if after all this arguing, I did decide to eat fish, I would probably just catch it on my own or research various fishing companies and their practices, much like someone would do if they want to eat nonhormone pumped, genetically engineered vegetables.
    If you're confused, try a little common sense:

    When you take a fish off the hook and lay it on the deck, does the fish look like it ENJOYS being there?

    If you were stranded on another planet with Earthlike atmosphere and an abundance of unfamiliar lifeforms and no food, you wouldn't know which ones were intelligent and which ones felt pain.

    Not wishing to make a mistake, what would be your safest bet? The little thing you had to swim around after that kept jumping out of your hand trying to get away or other little thing thats been sitting there on the ground for the whole time you've been there and is in fact anchored to it?

  39. #139
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    Default Fish are friends not food....finding Nemo...

    Quote mikdes PM
    I don't understand how eating fish can be so blatantly unvegan if you don't know if they suffer. It just doesnt make sense.
    I guess this depends on your definition of veganism - it may be worth including in the thread reasons that eating fish is unvegan as I can come up with a few good reasons but there are others that would be able to give a lot more.
    - it has been shown that fish do feel pain. I refer to the bee venom study that was posted by several.
    - if you have any personal experience with fish you will understand that they are intelligent sentient beings that respond to interactions. I am speaking of aquarium fish here.
    - the process of killing a fish is violent in nature
    - if does not take into account the effect on fish communities or the effect on *non-target* species
    - there is no need to eat fish for nutritional reasons so why would you?!

    I read the links that you provided, one in particular was from a pro-angling site and therefore introduces bias. Science is often biased as well but it tries not to be, this is why I would take a study reported in New Scientist or Nature, over one reported from an Angler's perspective.

    Quote mikdes
    I also try as much as possible to not intentionally cause harm to others. However, when i Know that thousands of insects die for vegetables and that is perfectly fine for vegans to accept, but they cannot accept that fact that a fish might not feel pain, then I think the ideology is flawed.
    You have said this before in your thread; but I do not understand the reasoning. Are you saying that because insects die in the natural course of things; whether that be agriculture or walking down the street or mowing lawns, that it is then okay to kill and eat fish since you are not sure that they do feel pain?

    As a vegan, should not the question be is it okay to kill fish to eat them if there is the possibility that they feel pain? The answer is an automatic NO!! Pain is only the beginning of the equation; there are so many other facets to the vegan assessment and we don't judge simply on perceived capacity for pain or suffering.

    Thousands of insects die every second of the day! Even while sleeping thousands of mites are on your skin and in your bed and are being born, living and dying as you slumber. You can't compare them to fish however as they are not physiologically the same.

    You will find that there are a great many vegan that are *not* perfectly comfortable with insects dying as a result of their activities. Despite this, it is hard to justify the extrapolation that if some are okay with some insects dying due to the lack of being able to detect recogniseable demonstrations of pain, that it is okay to consume fish because you personally doubt they can feel pain.

    Does not the suggestion that fish can and do feel pain give reason enough to avoid eating them - entirely apart from all of the other reasons there are to not eat fish?
    "if compassion is extreme, then call me an extremist"

  40. #140
    julieruble
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    Quote mikdez
    You all have still not convinced me that killing an insect is any different than killing a fish.
    As opposed to trying to convince you that fish don't feel pain, some people here are trying to explain to you that "vegans don't eat things that suffer" is not a correct definition, and that veganism has implications for the use of animals and their products, period. And that that is a reason, even if fish don't feel pain (which, as a bio major, I think is ridiculous . . . they're not even a simple organism, they're vertebrates with an advanced nervous system, why wouldn't anyone think they feel pain?) that it is not vegan to eat them.


    See the talk of non-exploitation above that you must have missed.

  41. #141
    julieruble
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    Oh, and PS -- the insects killed during agriculture (especially all-natural agriculture like many people here support) cannot be contrued as being "exploited" -- they are killed, but that's not the same thing. They aren't made a commodity for human consumption, and they aren't assumed to be there solely to fuel our bodies/endeavors. So that's where you draw the line -- not just suffering, but exploitation. At least, from what I've read and seen about veganism, that's what makes sense. PS, I'm not vegan, and have no particular vested interest. This is what I've learned about veganism from being here and reading the comments of some intelligent folks.

  42. #142
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    If you want to read about whether or not fish feel pain, try to enter "do fish feel pain" at Google, for example. Or take a closer look at our site.

    I changed the name of the thread, because we want the threads to reflect what they cover, and the discussion moved towards that direction.

    You have said goodbye, you are not kicked out.
    In our guidlelines, we request that people participate in discussions (see the thing about two-way communication) they participate in - if you know what I mean. People who come here just to ask questions, and refuse to participate if their non-vegan views are challenged, will be frustrated (and frustrating) in here....

    Every forum that is meant for a defined group of people (like this one) is 'kicking' people out - and should. This is a forum for vegans, or people who want to go vegan. Vegans are known to 'worry' about causing physical, emotional or other psychological pain/suffering for other animals, but you seem to be worried about the opposite - (quote): "However, knowing that fish may not experience suffering is what bothers me."

    Vegan views are not limited to pain/suffering, vegans simply mean that animals, birds, fish etc are not meant to be our slaves or our food - period. Animals are different from humans, woman are different from men, Norwegians are different from eskimos, but that doesn't mean that one group has the right to use the other, or make decisions regarding the life or death of that other group.

    If you want to change the concept of veganism into something else than it is and always has been, you are free to do so, but not in here. I you agree in the vegan ways of looking at things, you are more than welcome to stay, but then it's a good idea to let us know that you agree, and not only try to challenge known and established vegan values. But I recognize myself in you, I also think it's healthy to 'question everything' (but not always & everywhere).

    Veganism isn't at all trying to be a perfect philosophy with the right answers to everything. Vegan is a term that covers a group of people that, simplified, doesn't want to harm / kill / eat other living beings, but is not a group of people who doesn't want to dig in the earth in case they harm a worm down there. I'm not saying that we shouldn't care about insects that are killed in all situations, or that vegans are 'more right' than the special buddhist groups that scan the soil for insects before they dig in it. I'm saying what the term vegan always has covered.

    If you again will reply that it's inconsistent to be against killing insects and buy plants that have been produced in a way that will kill insects, you are 100% right about that. If you again will write that vegans are meant not to support people or products who exploit animals, your are right about that as well, but veganism isn't that extreme-pure religion that (one part of) you might think it is. It's a rather broad expression that covers people who don't want to harm or remove the freedom of other animals - limited by the fact that in our world, this happens 'in the background' all the time, so vegansim is... 'total-veganism minus adjustments made in order to make the word usable in the world we live in'.

    Giving money to a beggar could mean that the beggar bought a burger for the cash he got. If veganism was a 'total religion', maybe there would have been rules saying don't ever give money to others, because they might use these money to exploit animals. To some peoples surprise, veganism is - to a surprisingly high degree - adjusted to be a useful, daily life term. But would it ever include eating fish, insects or human if that fish, insect or human could be killed without causing pain? No. We don't (need to) kill others, even if they wouldn't notice that we did it. And according to common vegan views, we don't have the right to ignore the rights of others, pain or not. But we do take walks, and we might kill insects when we do so.

    What you wrote about PMs from other members is interesting. We had technical problems a month ago, so I had to open some large backup files to look at them, and by accident I realized that they also contained private messages, available for me to read. And no, I have no interest in reading other peoples private mail, but the one that I saw without wanting to, was from a member who seemed to be negative about our forum, the way it is run and our rules. It's a mystery for me why people will want to wasted time on a forum they don't enjoy.

    If some people tell that you can be 'kicked out for your comments', first of all, they are wrong, because nobody is 'kicked out for their comments' here. But by signing in, you have agreed to our guidelines, which says that this is a sites for people who are vegans or plan to go vegan... people who live on a plant based diet are also welcome in here (but not if they are here to convince us that we are wrong in our vegan views, we want a break from that in here). For many reasons we are limiting the discussions to communication that happens on vegan premises. This site would be a true mess if we would welcome everybody, so this will never happen.

    Please have a look at our FAQ again and see if you like this place and agree to the guidelines. If you do, you are more than welcome to stay. If not - have a nice life.

    (PS - in case you missed it, vegans would not eat fish (or insects), even if they could not feel pain ).

  43. #143
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    One more thing, regarding the 'would you kill a human if it couldn't feel pain'-question: I know you are not a cannibal, but the REAL question is: since you would not kill a human that was unable to feel pain, why would you kill a fish if it was unable to feel pain?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  44. #144
    mikdez
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    People kill fish to eat.

  45. #145
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    Cannibals kill humans to eat. So my response to 'People kill fish to eat' is... why?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  46. #146
    mikdez
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    People kill insects that supposedly dont feel pain to eat (vegetables).

  47. #147
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    Why would you kill a fish to eat it?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  48. #148
    mikdez
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    I found this pretty interesting:

    Pastor, J., Soria, B., & Belmonte, C. (1996). Properties of nociceptive neurons of the leech semental ganglion. Journal of Neurophysiology, 75, 2268-2279.
    These people have identified that leeches have nociceptive neurons that can sense mechanical indentation, concentrations of acetic acid, and heating of the skin.

  49. #149
    mikdez
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    I am happy with the definition of a vegan in a more dietary context, which says that vegans don't eat fish. However, I am not happy about using the term suffering in the definition of veganism because IF in the future there was undeniable evidence that fish did not consciously experience pain, then vegans who are vegans in order to prevent suffering would then be allowed to eat fish.

  50. #150
    mikdez
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    In addition, IF in the future there was undeniable evidence that insects did consciously experience pain, then vegans who are vegans in order to prevent suffering would then NOT be allowed to eat vegetables... unless they grew them in a garden or something and didn't use any pesticides.

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