Vegans & fish

[Kevster]

Or being vegan.....

'Outlawing fishing 'would help save coral reefs'
By Steve Connor, Science Editor
Published: 06 January 2006

Marine biologists may have found a simple way of preserving tropical coral reefs that are threatened by pollution and climate change - ban fishing.'

http://news.independent.co.uk/enviro...icle336783.ece

[Kevster]

'Homopechephobia - Politics, Corporate Welfare, and the World Crisis in the Fisheries

Commentary by Paul Watson
Sea Shepherd Conservation Society

Homo - peche - phobia, an irrational fear of fishermen. An ailment suffered by politicians.

For as long as I can remember, the Canadian government has been afraid of fishermen.

The politicians always seem to cower in mortal terror every time a fisherman makes a demand or a threat.

Because of this, Canada has had a string of incompetent jellyfish posing as men who have served as Ministers of Fisheries. Without exception, from Romeo LeBlanc to Geoff Regan, they have put the interest of fishermen front and foremost and the interests of fish and the rest of Canadians last. [...]'

http://www.seashepherd.org/editorial..._060105_1.html

[Freckles]

I just want to say that the assumption that fishes do not feel pain has absolutely no scientific basis. First of all, what benifit would the absence of pain do a fish - an animal that participates in complex predator/prey interactions? If fishes could not feel pain, why would they avoid predators - why would they fear being eaten? And if fishes did not avoid being eaten, how would they spread on their genes? Pain seems to have developed for a reason in nature ... to help its recipients avoid injury and death ... and the fishes need this functionality no less than we humans! Secondly, fishes have nociceptors - sensors that specifically allow for the feeling of pain. They also have responses to damaging stimuli that are similar to those of other pain-feeling animals... How is there any doubt? Bah!! Anyways .. I'm new to the forum ... so yay!

[Gliondrach]

Welcome to the forum, Freckles.

Of course fish feel pain. I think that some people deny it because they are trying to salve their guilty consciences. They try to convince themselves that what they do is not cruel because the fish don't feel it.

I am recruiting now for an elite squad who will be trained in frogman combat techniques. They will patrol rivers where there are anglers and will drag them under until they nearly drown. We have to make the anglers' sport more exciting for them. The knowledge that they might die will add an extra bit of adventure for them. Next, we will set up a special team of shooting deflectors. These will be provided with armoured plates which they will use to deflect hunters' shots away from their prey and back towards the hunters.

If anyone is interested in the next selection course, let me know.

[Kevster]

The glorious fish industry:

'Fish stocks under threat as rare virus kills 50,000 trout
By Ian Herbert
Published: 02 June 2006

A rare virus which has struck only once before in the UK has killed 50,000 rainbow trout and is seriously threatening stocks of the fish.

The outbreak, which has been traced to a farm in the Yorkshire Dales, has led to movement restrictions being placed on more than 30 other premises along the river Ouse, in an area stretching from the Pennines to the coast near Scarborough and Bridlington, east Yorkshire.

As yet the virus, viral haemorrhagic septicaemia (VHS), has been confined to the single farm on the river Ouse but stock movement restrictions have been placed on 33 fish farms while the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science (Cefas) carries out tests on nearby farms.

With the Cefas test results are not due for another three weeks, many fish farmers in Yorkshire - one of the most important trout farming regions of Britain - fear for their futures. Those farms where fish are killed by VHS will not get any compensation.

It is a week since the outbreak was first confirmed at the farm, which has remained unidentified. A total of 19 tons of fish have perished from the disease or have been slaughtered through electronic stunning in the water. The farm site is being drained and disinfected.

A spokesman for Swinton Trout Farm, near Ripon, North Yorkshire, told the Northern Echo: "It has a lot of comparisons to foot-and-mouth. They are coming round testing us all and if we have it, then they will slaughter our stock without compensation. We don't know what is going to happen and there is the potential for a lot of businesses to fold. We have a lot of business restocking fish farms and we are not allowed to move the fish around, so effectively we are closed."

The disease is common in Denmark and France, but the only other British outbreak hit farmed turbotin 1994 on the Scottish island of Gigha. Although found in the wild, it is more common in fish farms where the trout are closer together.

The VHS is most commonly seen in rainbow trout and could rapidly kill up to 80 per cent of the fish. Other trout in the UK are "naïve" to the virus - they have not been previously infected or built up immunity - so the disease has the potential to cause widespread damage to native fish stocks if it gets into the wild.

Government and industry officials said there were no risks to human health. "It is exceedingly bad news," said Nick Read, the chairman of the British Trout Association. "Until now, the controls existing to protect the UK have prevented it from arriving on the mainland so this case has to be taken extremely seriously."

As a List-II notifiable disease, there is a legal obligation to report any suspected outbreaks of VHS to the Fish Health Inspectorate. Scientists are trying to identify whether the virus came from other fish farms in the area, another part of the country or wild fish.'

http://news.independent.co.uk/enviro...icle623412.ece

[fiamma]

Fish are so beautiful in the water - when I see them at the fish counter, their eyes all glassy, it's so sad.. that's why I don't eat fish.

[emamaly]

I am recruiting now for an elite squad who will be trained in frogman combat techniques. They will patrol rivers where there are anglers and will drag them under until they nearly drown.

love it. but we might as well be thorough and have the trusty bat for once they are in the water. we can't have them flopping around, trying to escape. best to knock them over the head.

[Yoggy]

My supermarket has quite a big fish section with live fish and crabs in tanks. The crabs are crowded so much that they're standing on top of each other with no room to turn around . And this is a display aquarium that's supposed to make buying the fish and crabs appealing! I don't know how anyone could look at those miserable creatures and think "I'm hungry"

[GoodKitty]

I'm with you. It makes me feel sick with sadness when I see that tank.

[mjj48]

Someone's probably already said this, so my apologies if they have, but what is dolphin-friendly tuna all about???

I mean, it may be friendly to the dolphin, but it's not exactly friendly to the tuna is it? Perish the thought that it's because dolphins are considered more "cute" than tuna...

[BlackDog]

dolphins are considered more "cute" than tuna...

That's about the size of it.
And koalas are cuter than kangaroos and much cuter than crocodiles!

[mjj48]

I watched a programme a couple or so days ago where a reporter went to different countries abroad to try what others would class as "taboo" foods.

He was happily eating things such as seals, warlrus etc, but when it came to eating a dog he couldn't do it - he said it felt wrong. So... it was okay to eat all the other different animals, but the dog was different? All are living creatures, all feel pain the same way. But oh, hang on, some are cuter than others...

I tell you, the mind boggles it really does .

[horselesspaul]

Dolphin-friendly tuna goes down the pub with it's dolphin mates and has a good laugh, often ending in riotous underwater behaviour and taunting of crustaceans.

[mjj48]

lol - I have an image of a dolphin down the pub drinking a pint and eating crisps now lol .

[Haniska]

My mom told me that dolphin free just means that they don't have dolphin meat in them.

[Korn]

But oh, hang on, some are cuter than others...

Most people look at the world from within their pre-programmed (from society/parents/media/past) ideas and feelings, and fail to recognize how similar eating a dog is to eating a lamb - from the dog's or lamb's point of view.

[Pilaf]

On another forum I post at, earlier today, a kid was fully claiming to be vegetarian and saying he ate fish. He wasn't just saying he supports a vegetarian lifestyle, but he was actually applying the label to himself. I replied like this:

"I could call myself celibate and say I only have sex on tuesdays, and I wouldn't really be celibate. I would be calling myself that, but it would be a lie and a misuse of the word. I could call myself Straight Edge but say "oh but I smoke weed once in a while.", and that would be an insult to people who are serious about Straight Edge.

Do you get my drift? There's nothing wrong with saying you support vegetarian ethics but still eat fish, or that you're a pesca-vegetarian or pescatarian, but when you actually call yourself a vegetarian like that, it gives people the wrong idea about what vegetarianism is. It's because people call themselves vegetarians but still insist it's okay to eat things like fish or chicken that so much misinformation about being vegetarian is out there. Please don't misrepresent the lifestyle.

I'm not attacking you. I'm not saying your lifestyle isn't good enough and I'm not trying to act superior. I'm asking you nicely to not use a label that actually does apply to me and others and try to apply it to yourself when it does not fit. I don't doubt you mean well and that you're not all about the essence of the ethic, but at the end of the day, apples are apples, and oranges are oranges. If I'm an apple and you're an orange, please don't call yourself an apple just yet."

[Yogini]

Someone's probably already said this, so my apologies if they have, but what is dolphin-friendly tuna all about???

I mean, it may be friendly to the dolphin, but it's not exactly friendly to the tuna is it? Perish the thought that it's because dolphins are considered more "cute" than tuna...

OK, Denis Leary is totally not vegan friendly. But he does have a funny bit on people who only eat only dolphin-friendly tuna. "But what about the tuna?" he muses. "F*ck the tuna; they taste good!" is his imagined response.

[CoCo]

Not exactly relevant, but I thought this was funny.
On my French final exam, there was a section dealing with partitive article for foods, and there were some fill-in-the-blank questions. One of them was:
-Vous etes vegeterienne? Mangez-vous le poisson?
Which, translated, means "You're vegeterian? Do you eat fish?"

lol. I wanted write a big fat "NON!" next to it, but I refrained.

[eve]

Why didn't you?

[Farflame]

Some guy on a forum told me I wasn't a vegan, because I 'admitted' that I'd use an anti-venom if I'd been bitten by a snake. Since a snake has probably been mistreated in some way to provide the anti-venom, that means my vegan ethics are, apparently, irrelevant. He says that if he eats one less burger then he's effectively a vegan too, it's just a matter of how much.

I tried explaining to him that he was a retard but it didn't work

[Yogini]

That sounds like someone who's desperate to justify meat eating. I take thyroid medication that was tested on animals because otherwise I'd be too sick to accomplish anything. I guess I just might as well start eating meat and cheese again. What an ass.

Incidentally, I've heard that experts are starting to conclude that anti-venin isn't very useful. You either recover from the snakebite or you don't. (This is just something my father, a vet who occasionally has to treat snake-bitten dogs told me. Don't use my words to justify not seeking treatment if you're bitten by a cobra or something.)

[Farflame]

I was thinking that when I answered. I live in a country (UK) where there's only one venemous snake and I don't think it's lethal, so the chances of that happening to me are virtually zero. Added to which, it wouldn't surprise me if antidotes are indeed ineffective, but I suppose, hypothetically, I would accept an antidote if I'd been bitten by a seriously dangerous snake.

To be honest, I don't think he was trying to justify his meat-eating. It was a forum thread filled with vegan-haters and their only interest was in trying to prove how 'wrong' vegans are. It got boring very quickly

I also saw the program with Paul Merton in China. Some people were eating dog infront of him and asked if he'd like to try some. He refused, but sat at the table as they ate their bowl of dead dog and admitted that the smell of it made him hungry. He resisted but quickly left to find some 'real' food elsewhere. Sadly, not much was made of it and I fear that alot of people will just sit there thinking 'Oh those Chinese and their dog-killing ways', without noticing their own hypocrisy. He really should have made a point of it, 'Well you eat lamb don't you?' or something

[NancyKYates]

it seems pretty cut and dry to me. fish is an animal. vegans (and vegetarians) supposedly do NOT eat animals/meat. so vegans should not be eating fish. i just LOVE it when people say "i'm a vegetarian but i eat fish". i see this as very black and white. either you are not vegetarian and you eat animals, air or water breathing, OR you ARE an actual vegetarian and do not eat fish.
i am not from the school of thought that there are 10 different kinds of vegetarian, although i do find that idea amusing.

[Tibetan Snake]

O ye the Chicka Fishatarians, I'v met a few.
But what came first the Chickin or the Egg?

[steven1222]

it seems pretty cut and dry to me. fish is an animal. vegans (and vegetarians) supposedly do NOT eat animals/meat. so vegans should not be eating fish. i just LOVE it when people say "i'm a vegetarian but i eat fish".

Those people probably classify sea products separately. If anything, consuming fish should be considered even more unnatural than other meats, because they live underwater where humans cannot reach them without tools.

i am not from the school of thought that there are 10 different kinds of vegetarian, although i do find that idea amusing.

The only people who are truly vegetarians are those who eat no animal products. The term "vegetarian" has become so distorted by consumers of dairy products, hen eggs, and so many other animal products (even fish? ) that it no longer means anything.

[BassPixie]

O ye the Chicka Fishatarians, I'v met a few.
But what came first the Chickin or the Egg?

The egg....

[Tibetan Snake]

o ye

[HappyVegan]

O ye the Chicka Fishatarians, I'v met a few.
But what came first the Chickin or the Egg?

I made a little graphic a few years back with what I thought to be the answer to this question lol.

[BassPixie]

See!! :smug:

*blinks and realizes that smiliey does not exist...*

bugger...

[emmapresley]

See!! :smug:

*blinks and realizes that smiliey does not exist...*

bugger...

could ask happyvegan very nicely to create a smugicon for you??

[HappyVegan]

could ask happyvegan very nicely to create a smugicon for you??

Hmm, a smugicon huh? Let me see what I can do

[BassPixie]

*look of awe on face!!*
A smugicon would be very cool.... can people really make icons though?


I thought it was computers working in small dungeons ages underground that did that..



ThankYou ^_^

[veganfit]

Hi; actually you can get lots of protein through eating hummus, textured soy and vegetable protein, tempeh, tofu, seitain, quiona, (a grain that contains all the amino acids to form a complete protein and is really delicious (say it as keen-wah), beans, nuts, etc., use Ezeikel bread which is high in protein and loaded with sprouts. As a vegan I do not consume tons of carbs, just the multi-grain healthy ones and through through fruits & veggies. Almons, Walnuts, Avacados, etc., are foods that will keep you full while giving you the good fats you need to stay healthy. You can choose a very healthy plant based diet without loading up on white pastas and rice if you are watching your weight. (don't forget to drink your water and exercise!).

[veganfit]

Thunder: Tuna is filled with mercury and is really NOT good for you; you get get all the protein you need through plant foods such as tofu, tempeh, seitan, chick peas, black beans, lentils, etc. etc., soups, slow cooking, steaming, smoothies (soy ice creams, it is endless.....(even dairy free chocolates) (hummus, etc.); it really is fun and educational and kindness to animals! (and great for your health). Soy and rice milk is delicious. Textured vegetable protein, textured soy protein, beans, nuts, grains, multi-grain breads such as Ezeikel breads, etc. Keep reading and learning; (read labels) there are THOUSAnds OF RECIPES, cookbooks, and information at your disposal on the 'net. I'm vegan now for almost two years. I spend hours on line. It takes time, learning, (many mistakes along the way), and a lot of reading. Join some organizations. Check out FriendsofAnimals.org (www.veganmeans.com.) There are so many wonderful groups out there to learn from. There is the American Vegan Society, etc. Good kuck and welcome to our world of compassion and cruelty free living.!

[harpy]

I know you weren't going to be eating fish anyway, but you might still be interested to know that there's a book out by an American doctor, Jane Hightower, who thinks the dangers to humans from mercury in fish have been understated.

There's a review in the New Scientist but unfortunately you can't read that online unless you subscribe to NS. However there's an interview with her here: http://www.kqed.org/quest/radio/merc...tower-web-only and some other stuff on the web.

[gogs67]

I know you weren't going to be eating fish anyway, but you might still be interested to know that there's a book out by an American doctor, Jane Hightower, who thinks the dangers to humans from mercury in fish have been understated.

There's a review in the New Scientist but unfortunately you can't read that online unless you subscribe to NS. However there's an interview with her here: http://www.kqed.org/quest/radio/merc...tower-web-only and some other stuff on the web.

That's another one of Rick Berman's discrediting campaigns on the roll!

http://www.mercuryfacts.org/

[fiamma]

Poor fish. Every time I pass the fish counter and see them all spread out on the ice it makes my blood boil. Fish have as much right to life as any other creature.

[eve]

how true, fiamma, and where I live (where fishing is THE thing), the local weekly rag always has pages of grinning idiots holding up a dead fish to show how big it is, and how proud they are to have caught it, killed it, then will eat it. Is that verging on cannibalism?

[fiamma]

I think the killing and consumption of any animal is a barbaric practice verging on cannibalism, I think you've hit the nail on the head eve.

After all, we welcome dogs, cats etc. into our homes and treat them as if they were our children - would we eat our children??

[horselesspaul]

Poor fish. Every time I pass the fish counter and see them all spread out on the ice it makes my blood boil. Fish have as much right to life as any other creature.

Yes.

But fish are ugly and you can't cuddle them..and they breathe water, what's that about? The pescatarians real mindset.

Fish are excellent and I am jealous of them generally.

[green woman]

If fish had vocal cords there'd be far fewer anglers.

[Animosity]

If fish had vocal cords there'd be far fewer anglers.

That would be a great quote to put on a shirt! Maybe a little picture of a fish with a thought bubble saying something along the lines of: "please, i don't want to die!" while on the fishing line.

[green woman]

That would be a great quote to put on a shirt! Maybe a little picture of a fish with a thought bubble saying something along the lines of: "please, i don't want to die!" while on the fishing line.

Feel free to use it and distribute widely!

[eve]

But cattle, sheep, chooks, they all have vocal chords but it doesn't stop their killers from doing their dirty work.

[green woman]

But cattle, sheep, chooks, they all have vocal chords but it doesn't stop their killers from doing their dirty work.

It's a job which they get paid to do, most people couldn't do it even though they're prepared to let someone else do it for them. I meant amateur anglers, most of whom would probably think twice about their hobby if they could hear the suffering that they were causing. I know fish look distressed when they're caught but if they made sounds as well I think that would upset people more and so they would be less likely to to do it.

[Quantum Mechanic]

I didn't read a lot of the pages, but I did want to address this, because while some omnis use it as a "gotcha" type thing, for me it was an actual philosophical quandary that led me to be a guilt-tripping meat eater for a number of years before becoming vegan because I couldn't resolve it:

Do we not kill insects and deprive them of life for our vegetables? To be extreme...What about the plants themselves? Do we not deprive them of life?

This was one thing that kept me from being vegan for awhile (aside from my longstanding inability to plan meals of any sort other than what was handed to me), as I have a great reverence for all life, including plant. But being vegan is about reducing suffering, as it can't be completely eliminated, so since animals get fed plants and other animals, if you consume animals in addition to plants, then really you are consuming more plants than someone who consumes a solely plant-based diet, because the animals you consume also ate plants. This also leaves out consideration of whether the life forms in question can feel pain or fear, too, which are ways they can suffer.

[Korn]

We don't deprive the sun from being a sun from taking a sunbath, and we don't deprive air from being air by breathing, right? There's nothing that indicates that a carrot or tomato wants to live or that the suffering some people (normally guilt laden meat eaters) insist that they experience actually exists.

If there's nothing that can prove that plants have feelings or a will (/capacity) to escape, I don't see a reason to assume that they suffer...

And of course - like you say: the animals meat eaters eat also eat plants - so eating meat would have increased the total amount of suffering anyway (if plants could feel pain).








PS - we also have this thread: 'You can watch a slaughterhouse video, I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest - then we'll discuss'

[Animal_Genes]

My point is that if it wouldn't cause any more harm to kill a fish than it would to kill an insect, then why should we not eat fish?

Regarding the "ABSOLUTELY need to" part of the question, I am pretty sure as human beings we need vitamin B12 to sustain normal functions in our body; therefore, if we can eat fish without causing harm and if we need the B12 that they provide, then there is no reason not to eat fish because it is healthier to receive vitamins from food as a opposed to supplements.
And in the end we are not harming anything more than an insect.

I hope I´m not responding something somebody else has, but right now I don´t have time to read every single answer (I´ve read the first page, quite a few answers there). Forgive me if I repeat something.

Your point "if it wouldn't cause any more harm to kill a fish than it would to kill an insect" is a contradiction in itself: I don´t know what you understand by "harm", but if death is not harmful, I don´t know what is!! I assure you death is harmful to fish!! And to insects!! Why should insects be less important? Because they´re small? Or what?? To kill is to kill is to kill. There´s no other word or definition. When you kill, you end somebody´s life, and that you can´t recover, my friend.

Anyway, let´s assume fish or insects, or whoever, don´t feel pain (which I don´t believe for a minute)... Do you really think pain is the only issue involved in taking a life? Would the supposed lack of pain be a good reason to end their life? There´s no good reason to end anybody´s life!! In that case, let´s say aliens from another planet (or anyone else for that matter) needed to eat you so they could be healthier... would you find it acceptable if they ended your life while you were asleep by injecting a painless substance and you didn´t feel any pain???

Regarding your point about B12 ("if we need the B12 that they provide, then there is no reason not to eat fish because it is healthier to receive vitamins from food as a opposed to supplements. "), again, let´s put those aliens as an example: if they could survive quite well, quite healthily, with supplements of something they could also get from your body, would you think it was ethical for them to end your life unnecessarily to get the 'you' version???

Life is something that only happens once, so please let´s not play God with it, let´s not take it from anyone. Everyone´s in this planet to enjoy their own life (whether painful or 'painless'), and those who think they´re superior to take another individual's life when they don´t need to, should ask themselves why.

[Haniska]

Regarding your point about B12 ("if we need the B12 that they provide, then there is no reason not to eat fish because it is healthier to receive vitamins from food as a opposed to supplements. "), again, let´s put those aliens as an example: if they could survive quite well, quite healthily, with supplements of something they could also get from your body, would you think it was ethical for them to end your life unnecessarily to get the 'you' version???

AWESOME! Never got that perspective before.