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Thread: Animal self-violence or suicide?

  1. #1
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    Default Animal self-violence or suicide?

    I have no idea where I am going with this; Just a thought that entered my head and, before it exits the other side, I wanted to get it down.

    How come it is only humans and never animals (or do they?) that become unhappy enough to actualy perform acts of violence (I'm not just talking about lying down and 'giving up' here) against the self like, ultimately, acts of intentional suicide?
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  2. #2
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Don't know. Never felt remotely suicidal personally.

    You ok CS?

    lv

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Don't know. Never felt remotely suicidal personally.

    You ok CS?

    lv
    Hells Bells!

    Yes matey and bless yer little cotton socks for asking ...

    Blessed with the love of kiddies and the love of a good woman. "No wucking furries at all mate" (as the Ozzies like to say?) head over heels in love with life, I am, and life seems to be totaly head over heels in love with me

    Probably due to the fact that I think like an eejyut, speak like an eejyut AND act like an eejyut thus what I think, say and do are all in perfect harmony.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  4. #4
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Animals do self mutilate when they're very unhappy, e.g feather plucking in birds.

    I think the main difference is (and I am JUST surmising here) that animals can't really be fully aware of all life's possibilities. Like a dog, for example, that's been mistreated, can often grow to love a new human very quickly. Animals tend not to dwell on their misfortunes, they just act in the moment.

    The other thing is, of course, that animals don't have cars/ropes/drugs, etc in order to kill themselves!.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    I have no idea where I am going with this; Just a thought that entered my head and, before it exits the other side, I wanted to get it down.

    How come it is only humans and never animals (or do they?) that become unhappy enough to actualy perform acts of violence (I'm not just talking about lying down and 'giving up' here) against the self like, ultimately, acts of intentional suicide?
    That's an interesting thought to say the least I would think suicide would be more prominent in humans. Animals don't have to deal with the mental stresses that a human does.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Don't know. Never felt remotely suicidal personally.

    You ok CS?

    lv

    Oh no its happened again ...another man driven to the edge by spending too much time with me. When will I ever learn?

  7. #7
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Oh no its happened again ...another man driven to the edge by spending too much time with me. When will I ever learn?
    When did he first start tearing his hair out?

    (Shouldn't laugh, my bald patch is expanding by the hour.)

    leedsveg

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Its not the tearing out that causes problems leeds..its the weaving it back in. Bit like home rug making

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Is it just me, or are people here getting crazier by the day?

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Animals tend not to dwell on their misfortunes, they just act in the moment ...
    Well pluck mah butt and call me 'chickie' ...

    Cobbers, you just delivered a 'buddhism 101'!
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    Is it just me, or are people here getting crazier by the day?
    Nope it isnt you...they are.

    In UK we are experiencing stir-crazziness due to a ludicrously long Christmas break ...alledgedly.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Its not the tearing out that causes problems leeds..its the weaving it back in. Bit like home rug making
    I refuse to be an object of ridicule!

    But it happens anyway ...
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Nope it isnt you...they are.

    In UK we are experiencing stir-crazziness due to a ludicrously long Christmas break ...alledgedly.
    I like how you say "they are" as if you're not part of it

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    I like how you say "they are" as if you're not part of it
    LOL...Ok its a fair cop I am actually heading up the advance party!

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Its not the tearing out that causes problems leeds..its the weaving it back in. Bit like home rug making
    Please note that any attempts to ridicule Cupid in this thread are purely incidential and it is not the intention of individual members to ridicule anyone. Names used and events mentioned are purely fictional and bear no resemblance to real life people or events. The fictional character of Cupid has no association with the real individual who is of course stunningly gorgeous, sexy, intelligent,charming and (hopefully) forgiving.

    Slack

  16. #16
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Must admit that from the picture I saw of the real Cupid, he looks a bit like me and is as bald as me.

    Yours sincerely

    A. Coote

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    The only forum in the world where discussion about suicide gets turned into... well... this

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..


  19. #19
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    The only forum in the world where discussion about suicide gets turned into... well... this
    Hi BS. It's that time of year when unfortunately there are a lot of suicides. I'm sorry that a very serious subject seems to have been treated with levity but I was concerned that a heavy discussion going into the New Year, may have acted as a trigger for somebody. I know that anybody who comes onto the forum at any time indicating that they feel like harming themselves, would get the full support of myself and other members.

    Leedsveg

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I think it's often when people feel overwhelmed by life that they can feel suicidal. I'm not sure that non-humans feel overwhelmed. On the whole, I think other animals are a lot more sensible and don't try to take on too much.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi BS. It's that time of year when unfortunately there are a lot of suicides. I'm sorry that a very serious subject seems to have been treated with levity but I was concerned that a heavy discussion going into the New Year, may have acted as a trigger for somebody. I know that anybody who comes onto the forum at any time indicating that they feel like harming themselves, would get the full support of myself and other members.

    Leedsveg
    I'm not upset or anything. I thought it was funny how quickly the thread got hijacked And I realize that for the most part, people on this forum are pretty sympathetic. I'm sure someone who needed help would be more than able to find it here

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I do think that animals can be overcome by emotion, like with dogs or cats when their owner dies and they stop eating and die soon after. Or with certain animals if their young dies and they hang around. I don't know about planning of a suicide, just know that loads of animals are capable of feeling overwhelming emotions.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Oh yeah and not all emotions very sweet..I watched this docu on national geographic a while ago about chimps going on killing sprees an ripping smaller monkeys apart for no other reason than just bloodlust. I was really shocked to see 'Bubbles' ripping the head of a cute teeny little monkey. Animals are a lot closer to us than even I had ever imagined!

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote khadagan View Post
    I do think that animals can be overcome by emotion, like with dogs or cats when their owner dies and they stop eating and die soon after. Or with certain animals if their young dies and they hang around. I don't know about planning of a suicide, just know that loads of animals are capable of feeling overwhelming emotions.
    I had two rescue rabbits quite a few years ago now. They were rescued separately so did not grow up together or anything but as soon as they were together at my house they were inseperable. They spent a whole summer sitting together and digging burrows and following each other around. mainly i would go into the garden and they they would be squished up against each other. Then sadly one of them died. the other rabbit was inconsolable. She spent the next couple of days just hopping round the garden looking for her dead mate. She would not eat or drink. So I took her to the vet who gave her some kind of tonic injection and she was okay after that. But she was only okay - she was never as happy as she had been and I will never forget how much they appeared to care for and love each other. Animals definitely feel overwhelming emotions. My rabbits also had very distinct personalities. The two rabbits in question were called Max and Tulip and it was Max who died. Tulip was also what you could call feisty. She hated being handled and she was quite aggressive. I had to arrange her living accomodation so that i could just open her door and she would hop out because she disliked being touched. She was very curious and would often escape but when Max died she became very introspective and just - well, sad. At that point in time I could have picked her up and done anything with her because she was obviously depressed.

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    Quote VeganZee View Post
    I had two rescue rabbits quite a few years ago now. They were rescued separately so did not grow up together or anything but as soon as they were together at my house they were inseperable. They spent a whole summer sitting together and digging burrows and following each other around. mainly i would go into the garden and they they would be squished up against each other. Then sadly one of them died. the other rabbit was inconsolable. She spent the next couple of days just hopping round the garden looking for her dead mate. She would not eat or drink. So I took her to the vet who gave her some kind of tonic injection and she was okay after that. But she was only okay - she was never as happy as she had been and I will never forget how much they appeared to care for and love each other. Animals definitely feel overwhelming emotions. My rabbits also had very distinct personalities. The two rabbits in question were called Max and Tulip and it was Max who died. Tulip was also what you could call feisty. She hated being handled and she was quite aggressive. I had to arrange her living accomodation so that i could just open her door and she would hop out because she disliked being touched. She was very curious and would often escape but when Max died she became very introspective and just - well, sad. At that point in time I could have picked her up and done anything with her because she was obviously depressed.
    what an amazing story! we had rabbits and cats at home growing up and i also noticed significant changes in their behaviour and character after one of the animals died. i think a lot of animals are capable of grieving and changing their personality, maybe theyre just growing up. we had something similar with a stray cat we picked up. when another cat died this survivng cat completely changed. after making constant screaming/crying noises in front of the window for about 2 weeks he changed and became this cat who stood up for kittens in need! im not kiddng. outside he always had a trail of small kittens following him and if an older cat attacked an kitten he always came to the rescue! he got in so many fights after that that i had to take him to the vet regularly for his wounds after fights. we called him Supercat after that! he was completely different afte that cat died..

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean overwhelming emotions, I meant overwhelmed as an emotion in its own right. What I mean is that feeling of suffocation and anxiety thinking about the future and not really knowing what to do. I wasn't thinking about overwhelming sadness at the loss of a loved one, which I believe non-human animals do feel. But I don't think non-humans really feel overwhelmed by life in the sense that I don't think they analyse their own lives and the future, and to feel like you are being trapped beneath the weight of responsibilities and decisions. That weight of the world on your shoulders sort of feeling - I don't think non-human animals experience that because we create it for ourselves and non-humans tend to make snap decisions rather than turning things over and over in their minds (at least, as far as I am aware). I hope I've managed to get across what I was trying to say properly this time.

    ETA: I was just thinking about different ways of being overwhelmed and I wanted to make sure I was being clear, so I want to add that I also think non-human animals can become overwhelmed by situations, it's just caused by external rather than internal factors.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I think you were clear the first time, I just tried to find some similarities. I dont think animals are as self conscious as humans and they analyse as much or at all. I think they tend to react more, maybe on an instinctual level. I do think they can feel the emotions that humans can leading up to a suicide like depression, rage, overwhelming sadness and such. But they don't plan suicides like we do obviously

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    If I was clear, then you have grossly misunderstood my meaning.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Lol well sometimes threads go their own way

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I would say that's what pushes most people to the decision. It's usually one thing that pushes them over the edge, but brought up to that by years of stress from... life. Animals have no idea the complexity of stress that humans deal with. I'm not saying they're incapable of emotions. I'm saying they're unable to feel, as Chef put it, suffocation and anxiety from too many things happening at once. We created it, it belongs to humans.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    We created it, it belongs to humans.
    This makes me so sad.
    even perfect isn't perfect - Rubyduby 4th July 08

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote vava View Post
    This makes me so sad.
    Sorry

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    Sorry
    Not that you wrote it but the truth of it.....
    even perfect isn't perfect - Rubyduby 4th July 08

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Yeah I'm so envious of my dog. I only wish life could be so simple. To see how much enjoyment he gets out of something as simple as a walk. He gets excited, jumps up and down. He's kept happy so easily. Walking... something that we've turned into a chore. Excercise.

  35. #35
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I think that anyone who has ever spent any 'quality time' with any animal KNOWS that they experience strong emotions, but I don't think they are physically capable of suicide (and probably lack the mental 'resources' to plan it).

  36. #36
    cobweb
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    Quote Back-Space View Post
    Yeah I'm so envious of my dog. I only wish life could be so simple. To see how much enjoyment he gets out of something as simple as a walk. He gets excited, jumps up and down. He's kept happy so easily. Walking... something that we've turned into a chore. Excercise.
    I love that about dogs, too. Even when our last one was almost 17, Arthritic, and had regular seizures, she was SO excited about having a car ride!. It was when she finally grew too tired too appreciate it that we knew she was dying.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Hi BS. It's that time of year when unfortunately there are a lot of suicides. I'm sorry that a very serious subject seems to have been treated with levity but I was concerned that a heavy discussion going into the New Year, may have acted as a trigger for somebody. I know that anybody who comes onto the forum at any time indicating that they feel like harming themselves, would get the full support of myself and other members.

    Leedsveg

    Apologies from me too Back-Space..

    Engaging in silly banter was my weird coping mechanism for dealing with a night of the year that is difficult and painful for me. I would be motified to think that anyone had come to the forum experiencing their own difficulty with new year only to perceive us as uncaring and unsupportive.

    I am a Macmillan caseworker and I often find that a certain level of levity or banter can make an unbearable situation a little more bearable. If it was inappropriate on this occasion I am sorry.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I love that about dogs, too. Even when our last one was almost 17, Arthritic, and had regular seizures, she was SO excited about having a car ride!. It was when she finally grew too tired too appreciate it that we knew she was dying.
    Ours loves the car too He even knows the difference in words between car and truck. If he ever gets outside unleashed, he makes a game of it and tries to avoid being caught. All we had to do was hit the unlock button for the car so it made the alarm dis-engaging sound and he'd go running over, sit and wait for us

    Quote SlackAlice View Post
    Apologies from me too Back-Space..

    Engaging in silly banter was my weird coping mechanism for dealing with a night of the year that is difficult and painful for me. I would be motified to think that anyone had come to the forum experiencing their own difficulty with new year only to perceive us as uncaring and unsupportive.

    I am a Macmillan caseworker and I often find that a certain level of levity or banter can make an unbearable situation a little more bearable. If it was inappropriate on this occasion I am sorry.
    I wasn't aware that you were upset, and I'm sorry I realize that humour is a great way to take your mind off things, and I wasn't mad that the thread had been taken off-topic. I know everyone here is very caring and would be very supportive if someone needed help.
    Don't know. Never felt remotely suicidal personally.

    You ok CS?

    lv
    People are pretty quick to jump in and make sure everyone's alright

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Cathy, one of the dolphins used to make the TV series 'Flipper' did commit suicide after becoming depressed according to Ric O'Barry. That's why he became an activist.

  40. #40
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    Cathy, one of the dolphins used to make the TV series 'Flipper' did commit suicide after becoming depressed according to Ric O'Barry. That's why he became an activist.

    what did the Dolphin do?

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    She stopped breathing. Ric said that for Dolphins breathing isn't automatic like it is for humans. Each breath is a conscious effort.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    aw, that's sad. Glad it made him an activist though.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    how amazing about the dolphin and very sad though

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I love that about dogs, too. Even when our last one was almost 17, Arthritic, and had regular seizures, she was SO excited about having a car ride!. It was when she finally grew too tired too appreciate it that we knew she was dying.
    I can sympathise with that Cobbers.

    One of my cats fell ill (terminaly) a few years back. For as long as he still enjoyed being stroked I felt that life still had some value to him. When it meant nothing to him I kinda knew that allowing the vet to 'release' him was the only kindness that was left to show to him.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Animals commit suicide more frequently than humans. They just don't use ropes, pills or handguns to do it (probably because of that missing thumb thing). But when animals are depressed they stop eating. I'm ashamed to admit I've had several pets who committed suicide that way: lizards, guinea pigs, birds, fish, others I'd rather not mention. I gave them all the love in the world, shelter, food, water, room to exercise, but they just starved themselves to death anyway. If that's not suicide I don't know what is. I finally woke up and stopped keeping caged pets.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    I'm still unsure about animals committing suicide. Our cat died a few weeks ago(she had stopped eating) but we knew a while ago she wasn't doing well. I didn't even know cats could live to be 30... But I don't think the halt in eating was an attempted suicide. Likely organs shutting down, and her brain not telling her she needs to eat. I'm sure you kept great care of your pets, and the fact they had stopped eating wasn't likely due to being unhappy.

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    Default Re: Happiness, unhappiness, suicide ..

    Quote Back-Space View Post
    I'm sure you kept great care of your pets, and the fact they had stopped eating wasn't likely due to being unhappy.
    Hey Back-Space, I sincerely hope you're right. It's been a long time (this happened 20 years ago when I was a kid). I know in one case it was outright suicide, or call it a hunger strike, I had an iguana who was obsessed with escaping from her cage. Like cobweb said above, she started self-mutilating (scraping her face along the edge of the cage until her nose had literally come off), so I think it's safe to assume that she was pretty unhappy where she was. The other animals, I agree, were probably just responding to some physiological "don't eat" impulse and they weren't necessarily trying to kill themselves. Certainly in the case of your cat I bet that's the case. BTW congrats on a 30-year-old cat. That's amazing. I wish they all would live so long!

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    Default Re: Animal self-violence or suicide?

    I see this is an older thread but it reminded me of some research I was doing about a week ago on moon bears used for bile production in Asia (I have just learned about this practice and it is one of the most shocking and cruel types of exploitation I've read about). The bears are kept in a tiny cage and are 'milked' of their bile 1-2 times a day through a wound in their abdomen (for up to 3o+ years ), and it is extremely painful and stressful for them. An eye witness said that one day when they were about to do the initial surgery to gain access to the gall bladder in a bear cub, the cubs mother broke free of her cage, sending the workers fleeing out of the room. The mother then tried to free the cub of her restraints but was unable to, so she strangled the cub to death, and then killed herself by running headfirst into the wall. Many interpreted this as an act of euthanasia for the cub and then suicide by the mother. I can't confirm the truth of this story because it is an eye witness account and I haven't found a reputable news agency that reported on the story. But I do know that the bears are prone to either chewing at their stomachs or hitting them against the bottom of their cages until they die, and this was such a problem that many of the farms now use an 'iron vest' which goes around their abdomens and prevents the bears from intentionally injuring themselves.

    Do you think they are actually committing suicide or is it due to cage madness and the extreme pain they have to endure??

    The original story plus lots of info on the practice of bile 'farming': http://ingenira.hubpages.com/hub/A-T...ing-True-Story
    And in case you need cheering up afterwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dtXjX_oRn4
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Animal self-violence or suicide?

    Probably true, Bears are intelligent. So so sad but understandable that a mother would kill her own child to save them form the same agonising fate that she has endured.

    I hope all the humans involved in this practice die slow agonising deaths, I just can't understand how anyone could do that to a living creature

  50. #50
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Animal self-violence or suicide?

    Quote Johnstuff View Post
    I hope all the humans involved in this practice die slow agonising deaths..
    I really don't see that this can be the right response from a vegan perspective. Whatever the circumstances, I never want any living creature to die a slow agonising death.

    Leedsveg

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