[Several multi-question threads, closed]

[Cupid Stunt]

Answering for Cupid Stunt (I'm sure he will say what he thinks too) Ignorant in that she was not aware that in order to be fully spiritually aware, one must be vegan, and ignorant in her misunderstanding of the Bible.

The fact is that I don't know Queenie ..

I'm ploughing my way through Shabkars 'Food of the Bodhisvatas' at the moment but I now feel inspired enough to get some books on MT and learn some more about her.

My opinion, as it stands, is that MT's state of 'enlightment' is as close to the descriptions of what constitutes the nature of an Aharant as matters and that she was, at the least, a full blown Bodhisattva I have absolutely no personal doubts.

Selfishness is thus virtualy impossible in my mind as far as MT is concerned.

Indisputably (yes, yes, I know that absolutely nothing actualy ever is ...) adopting a vegan diet and opposing the eating of meat (had she fully understood all the ramifications) would have been a tiny thing in comparison to the other personal sacrifices she made on behalf of the poor.

I'm particularly thinking that if the woman had ever fully seen the causual link between meat eating (particularly in the west) and the poverty where she did her work that she would have spoken with the same passion for veganism as she did for the pro-life cause.

I simply have to to assume, in the abscence of more detailed knowledge, that on the meat eating front MT never fully joined up all the dots, as it were.

[Cupid Stunt]

Because in this instance, she was aware of the fact of suffering but chose to ignore it (because God told her to). Being aware of something but choosing to ignore it hardly comes under the heading of 'ignorance'. Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, not having the knowledge but failing to act on it (for whatever reason).

lv

This is interesting LV ..

You appear to be putting blind religious belief in the category of selfishness rather than in the category of ignorance?

Frankly I'm a bit torn on this one, insufficient knowledge on my part.

[leedsveg]

This is interesting LV ..You appear to be putting blind religious belief in the category of selfishness rather than in the category of ignorance? Frankly I'm a bit torn on this one, insufficient knowledge on my part.

I don't think you appreciate how significantyour responses are, as I try to understand where you are coming from CS!

With respect, you only seem capable of handling the fact of people not choosing veganism, in terms of their ignorance or their selfishness. I suggest at least one other reason, in that someone can have an idea that animals suffer in food production, but because they are informed by a 'higher power' eg God, The Bible, The Pope, Mother Theresa, the Rev Jim Jones (Jonestown) etc that the suffering is of no consequence, then they take any compassion they feel for the animals, no further, "God knows best." I do realise of course that sometimes it's the silence of the 'higher power' in situations, that is taken as guidance eg "Well God didn't say I shouldn't do it, so it must be ok to do it!"

So what am I trying to say? In essence, let's think for ourselves and not just blindly accept what some 'higher power' tells us. I see the core of veganism as following the route of greatest compassion, rather than accepting simple black and white rules which must never be broken.

After all it was you CS who told us that according to the Buddha, we should challenge everything, and not just accept it at face value!

So do you always go for the route of greatest compassion Cupid?

Sermon over. Happy New Year to all.

Leedsveg

[leedsveg]

Cupid

I've just seen your posting in the 'pro-life?' thread which crossed with mine in this thread and that does help me to see where you're coming from

[leedsveg]

cont)

Why couldn't you have posted that an hour sooner cos people will now think I'm Mr Badguy?! Also where has the edit function gone all of a sudden?

Leedsveg

[Cupid Stunt]

Cupid

I've just seen your posting in the 'pro-life?' thread which crossed with mine in this thread and that does help me to see where you're coming from

I would be VERY interested to know which post in the pro-life thread that was LV and which of the many entirely random directions I am coming from that it helped you see?

Why couldn't you have posted that an hour sooner cos people will now think I'm Mr Badguy?! Also where has the edit function gone all of a sudden?

Only a dust blinded mud-muppet would ever get you mixed up with a 'Mr Bad Guy' most estimable matey

(With apologies to all those who think LV is Mr Badguy and thus now know themselves to be 'dust blinded mud-muppets', that is, obviously .. )

[leedsveg]

I would be VERY interested to know which post in the pro-life thread that was LV and which of the many entirely random directions I am coming from that it helped you see?

Number #214 CS. RubyDuby may have noticed too!

lv

[fiamma]

Greetings,
I'm a meat eater

Don't feed the troll!!!

[Korn]

Dear Fiamma,

the Vegan/Non-Vegan discussion section is available for to those among our members who who are OK with discussions with meat eaters - so being a meat eater here doesn't necessarily mean trolling.

Since - when logged in - only members who have joined the 'Vegan/non-vegan discussion' permission group can see these discussion, you know what to do if you don't want to see them.

I don't understand why people here keep entertaining these types of question. They are the same ones asked numerous times by people who have no real interest in the answers.

Maybe (some of?) these posters don't have no real interest in the answers - but many non-registered visitors do. With that in mind, even the trolls help us find out which questions most non-vegans may have... and answer them!

[Korn]

I'll comment some of Jayfoxpox's questions, and hope he'll comment these questions as well.

1)To what extent of intelligence are you willing to eat? Is there a fine line lets say insects or bugs or is it strictly a bacteria,fungi,plant diet?

Vegans don't think one should treat humans or other sentient beings according to how intelligent they are. In my opinion: Anyone who don't want to be killed and eaten should not be killed or eaten - human or not, large or small, smart or not-so-smart. But unless you are into eatings bugs, this question may only have theoretical value... ;-)

4) Let's say an animal leaves a by product that harms it in no way and it's a natural occurrence. Like the shell of an egg ( after chick is hatched) or lets say the skin shedded from a snake. It's not harming it right?

Buying byproducts from people who make profit on exploiting animals still support their business. The word vegan must not be changed in a way so that a vegan or someone with an allergy could order a vegan meal on a restaurant and risk discovering that the owner thinks that meat from roadkill is ethical, and therefore is fine for vegans.

Many vegans and non-vegans use the word vegan as a reference for something which is free from animal products (for various reasons: ethical, religious, allergy-related etc), so this is important. But if you step on and destroy the shell of an bird's egg when taking a walk, there's of course no harm done to any bird, unless eg. in a very theoretical and unrealistic scenario that someone was just about to pick up that shell and use it, but buys an egg instead, and therefore supports the chicken industry with whatever they get for an egg. Theoretical scenarios usually only have theoretical value...

5) Let's say a company trained monkeys to farm. Would the crops be ethical?

Knowing how both humans and animals are treated in many of the countries we get our food from, buying crops from many of these companies could surely be considered unethical. But veganism is about doing one's best: We definitely don't support the idea that if we can't be 100% ethical all the time, we might as well use animal products. We all need food, but don't suggest that all humans should become farmers. Vegans (and many others) generally want to try to avoid supporting companies which treat someone badly.

6) To what extreme would it be ok. For instance, an animal/animal product(harmed) is required to cure w/e disease you have.

Vegans encourage the production of medicine, food, clothes etc. free from animal products. But veganism is about avoiding animal products as much as possible and practical. There is no vegan bible telling us how to behave in all life's situations, so you'll find this particular topic discussed in various threads we already have...

We often get such questions, and I wonder if the posters also post questions to those who exploit animals and ask why they don't test on diseased humans instead of animals (and so on), or ask themselves why they use animal products in all these situations where better options are readily available. Even if all vegans would have belonged to some weird cult which insisted that people should sleep naked, outdoors, even in the winter - you could still easily avoid meat - right? I hope you agree that the important part here what we all do, and not necessarily what we think.

If you live in a house or building, isn't that contradicting the very mindset of vegans? for that same spot where the house was built may have been a home for animals.

Vegans don't at all promote that people shouldn't live in houses. The principle is really simple: avoid harming other living beings as much as possible and practical (read: within reasonable limits). 'As much as possible' could have ended up in some rather extreme situations, which is why the word 'practical' must be in there as well.

Any person who would suggest a lifestyle which would be so strict/extreme that it wouldn't get any supporters wouldn't help anyone, because nobody would follow that lifestyle.

It's important to remember that harming some animal/human in one situation doesn't justify harming human/another animal in another situation. We don't support the idea that the environment is already harmed, so we may just as well keep harming it either, or that 'some ethnical minorities are being discriminated in some countries, so we may as well discriminate them all'. ;-) It's all about being realistic.

1) is your goal to deurbanize and have a more rural like society?
2)Would you then only choose to live in small homes that meet the minimal requirements?
3)Rely less on technology and more on "natural"?

Vegans don't insist that everything 'natural' (poisonous plants, anyone? ) always is good or that people should avoid technology. Veganism isn't a religion, and we're not collectively members of some vegan political party. We may discuss the topics you mention, but have many different opinions about them.

Here's my question to you, if you don't mind - since you mention that you do eat meat...
Did you ever decide to eat meat, or did you just start doing it because you grew up with it, and continue doing it because you now of course like meat and eating it has become a habit?

[fiamma]

Dear Fiamma,

the Vegan/Non-Vegan discussion section is available for to those among our members who who are OK with discussions with meat eaters - so being a meat eater here doesn't necessarily mean trolling.

Since - when logged in - only members who have joined the 'Vegan/non-vegan discussion' permission group can see these discussion, you know what to do if you don't want to see them.

Oops - sorry! You're right - my apologies.

[mini_mi]

Because this forum also has a section for non-vegans who are interested in veganism. Members can choose whether to helpfully answer respectful questions or ignore the threads.

I fully agree that someone who is legitimately searching for answers regarding veganism should be responded to. But, if you will notice that the message was the OP's first message and of course he/she has not returned. Second, the questions asked are easily researched as they are almost word for word questions that are asked by non-vegans who are not really interested in the lifestyle but are just stirring the post as they say.

[cobweb]

I fully agree that someone who is legitimately searching for answers regarding veganism should be responded to. But, if you will notice that the message was the OP's first message and of course he/she has not returned. Second, the questions asked are easily researched as they are almost word for word questions that are asked by non-vegans who are not really interested in the lifestyle but are just stirring the post as they say.

I know, but if we all ignore these type of questions there is a risk we might put a potential vegan off the idea. Personally I will respond to questions if asked respectfully, it doesn't take long. You can always ignore this thread if you prefer! .

[snowflower]

Hi, this is my first post here, I'm a new vegan, was a vegetarian with very limited amounts of eggs and dairy for the past year and half and am just starting to be completely vegan.... very excited, learning new recipes, etc. I am the only vegan or vegetarian out of my family and friends so it would be great to see how other people are eating etc..

Wondering if most of you here take a multivitamin or do you get all your nutrients completely from diet.. also how long did it take you to start eating healthy vs. eating any old junk food that happened to be vegan.. my diet has been mostly junk food (peanut butter and jelly, waffles with vegan butter, potato chips, hash browns etc... the only vegetables I've been eating other than potatoes is the once a day frozen vegetable package out of the freezer with some pasta) which even though its a junk food diet I still feel a million times better than when I ate meat, dairy etc....so I know I'm at least moving in the right direction so far! .... but I've started to run into some nutritional deficiencies so I'm now learning about and reading up on healthy vegan eating and realizing even though its a vegan diet it's still junk food!

So basically wondering anyone here takes a multi or if you were able to give that up once you got used to the nutritious vegan diet with all different healthy foods.. I am excited but feel a bit overwhelmed because I have never really cooked before - vegan or otherwise.. I'm excited to be starting this and also to see what other vegans experiences have been like so far..

[harpy]

Hello - welcome, snowflower. Vitamin B12 and (to some extent) vitamin D are the ones where you might want to take a vegan supplement or find foods fortified with them. If you eat a good mixed vegan diet you should be able to get everything else. There are some websites where you can find out more, e.g. http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/vegan.htm

I always ate quite a lot of fruit and veg (as well as quite a lot of junk!) so I can't really answer the question about transitioning. Frozen veg are fine from a nutritional point of view I think so perhaps you just need to eat a few more of them It's good to get a variety of things so maybe make a special shopping trip and stock up with some fruit, salad, nuts, beans etc? You don't need to spend a lot of time cooking - I don't. There are some meal plans and recipes on that VRG site and lots of ideas here as well.

When you say you are running into nutritional deficiencies what exactly do you mean? If you're not feeling well it's probably a good idea to check with a doctor rather than assume it's diet related.

[fiamma]

To be honest I practically never take vitamins, just B12 every so often... And I'm the healthiest I've ever been.
Not saying you should follow my example, it's just that a lot of people new to veganism seem to think they're necessary... I think only you can judge that based on how you feel and how balanced your diet is.

Keep us posted

[emmapresley]

could be helpful to take a peek at some of the foody threads in here. the what did you eat today can be a good one to see how other folk are eating for comparison.

variety is supremely good

[castagnetta]

Hello, I'm new to here as well.........so hello everyone! My husband and I have been vegan for a long time and recently been to the doctors who after a few blood tests on my husband (as he wasn't well) concluded that his cholesterol level was quite low and told us to eat some Omega 3, do exercise and drink some Pinot Noir! Which we have been doing for the past 2 months and are already feeling the benefits of! We usually buy an all inclusive vitamin supplement for vegans (from Holland and Barrett or our local health food shop), plus have vegan Omega 3 tablets and 2 teaspoons of Flaxseed oil, which is really good!

Hope this helps

[Back-Space]

I do the same thing I bought a B12 supplement with 60 tablets in it almost a year ago, and I've still got a good 40 left. But the vegan sausages and burger that I eat are also fortified with it. I'll probably go to the hospital sometime this year to get everything checked out and see how I'm doing, but I feel amazing so I doubt it's needed

[snowflower]

Hi everyone.. thanks for all your replies, i'm definately happy to know that it's possible to get your nutrients from a good diet.. i'm starting to read through some of the threads on what everyone ate today, and the recipes... seems like everyone eats some really good sounding food!! i also ordered a book called Becoming Vegan, which got here today so i'm excited to start reading that.. it goes into all the different vitamins, fats, protein etc... i printed out some vegan recipes offline too and made a new grocery list today.. so i'm getting there

i have a few other questions about iron supplements and also a good cheese substitute, i will look around the threads and see if i can find any info on those..

thanks for everyone's help

[leedsveg]

Hi snowflower and castagnetta, welcome to the forum. Every day, I take a Vegan Society multivitamin tablet, also I have a spoonful each of molasses, powdered ginger and powdered flaxseed/sunflower seed/pumpkin seed. Also I drink plenty of fortified soya milk.

Leedsveg

[fiamma]

Molasses is a great iron source; just 2 teaspoons gives you half your RDA...
Try diluting it in hot water - it makes a pretty good coffee alternative

[Tree-climber67]

So, I'm a new vegan. Well, I'm getting there anyway. Getting rid of meat wasn't really hard since I don't like it that much anyway and barely ate it. The milk and cheese, that's a different story. I'm fairly fond of milk and cheese is staple of my diet. I'm very against the animal product industry and I want to get rid of these things from my diet. Its been pretty hard so far. Any tips for a beginner? Also, my dad is very against my recent decision and has laughing at me and has been trying to sabotage me from minute one. I don't know how to handle that one. Any help? Please and thank you!lol

[RainInStarlight]

If you give up cheese and milk, (As in completely remove them from your diet all at once.) after awhile your body won't have the hormones from them in it any more..and you won't have the cravings for cheese/milk anymore. So, I would suggest stopping "cold tofu." Also, you could start on some Almond Milk or other nondairy milk if you want something with similar vitamins to drink that is a "white" in color.

Does your Dad fix your food? If he does, than maybe you should have an adult-type conversation with him about your choice, and why he should try to accept your choice to go vegan. He may just be worried about you.

[Winkleplum]

have you tried almond milk? The moment I tried it, I never craved dairy milk again... it is so delicious to me at least

A lot of vegan cheese such as "Follow Your Heart" are amazing, seriously I make pizzas at least 2-3 times a week with it, like it way more than "real" cheese

As for your dad, don't worry about it... I have a lot of people in my life like that. Just remember you're the one trying to do the right thing, they are just trying to defend their unhealthy and unethical lifestyle... i really hope you stick with it, don't let them get you down!

[snowflower]

Hi Treeclimber

Have you tried any of the "fake" cheeses? I just tried Daiya brand the other day, and it came out really good...it melts like real cheese... haven't tried any of the others yet though.. how about soymilk, or as the others said almond milk, both are really good

Some really good advice that the others on here gave me was to let people try some of your vegan cooking and they will see that it's not so bad when they taste it and realize how tasty it is.. so far that has worked for me, my parents are meat eaters and as i've started making new recipes they've seen how good the food looks and tasted some of it and i've gotten compliments and actually some requests for certain dishes I've made.. so i'm excited that at least they know vegans eat food that tastes good!.. so maybe as you start cooking things that look and smell good, and maybe offer him some of what you've made, he will realize that your food tastes good too? The same thing happened with one of my friends, who wasn't supportive at first, and after tasting my food thought it was great.. so I think people are starting to become more accepting that way..

[fiamma]

If I were you I would try to talk to your Dad - ask him WHY he's laughing at you. He thinks veganism is "freaky"? Nothing "freaky" about compassion and wanting to take care of your health. He thinks it's unhealthy? Point him to various studies which show the link between animal-derived foods and cancer. Perhaps he's uncomfortable about explaining your choice to others? It's YOUR choice, not his. But until you understand why he's trying to sabotage you, you won't be able to resolve the situation.

Good luck!

[khadagan]

I think milk is a very easy one to replace one on one, there are so many alternatives. I used to use soy milk and rice milk, nowadays I make my own nutmilks from almonds, hazelnuts, sunflower seeds or whatever I had. When I was a veggie I ate a lot of cheese like so many. When I craved some after I just turned vegan I reminded myself where it came from then I didn't want it anymore, just wasn't worth it. On my bread I used to have lots of different spreads, vegetable or nuts, sometimes with salads on there and I got really creative with my food. Since I turned vegan, about 15 years ago, I developed a true passion for food and I still love to experiment and try anything, before I never thought much about food, just had a slice of cheese on my bread, didn't think much about it. There are loads of nice foods out there and since I turned vegan I never ate so varied, I hope it will be the same for you! It's great fun I think

[Cupid Stunt]

Also, my dad is very against my recent decision and has laughing at me and has been trying to sabotage me from minute one. I don't know how to handle that one. Any help? Please and thank you!lol

Depends on your personality and on your Dads personality this one, but here's a tactic I have used on people before that fecks their head up quite a bit ..

Whatever mockery they throw at you respond with your best air of 'loving-kindness' and say "There's nothing to fear about this so there's no need for you to be afraid"

As sure as eggs is eggs you'll get an immediate denial of fear which opens up the line of "Well, obviously something is making you uncomfortable with me doing this or you wouldn't be putting so much effort into trying to put me off?"

From there something resembling a reasonably sensible converstion might just possibly come about.

Any resorts to further stupidity simply respond with something like "I am sensing some kind of irrational fear again, what is it thats actualy worrying you now?" and start the cycle again.

[spartacus]

I am new here and joined this site because I have an interest in having the best impact possible on the environment where I live. I have a couple vegan friends, but one had to adjust her diet recently for health reasons.

To whit I have a few general questions I would greatly appreciate seeing some vegans answer:


1.) How does one feed a family a vegan diet in a climate where it snows six months out of the year without relying on processed and preserved food stuffs or buying produce that has been transported -- often by cargo plane -- to your area?

2.) Do any vegans acknowledge the environmental and health benefits of the diets of traditional hunter/gather and farmer/hunter cultures of North America?

3.) Have any of you vegans intentionally killed an animal -- including euthenizing a companion animal -- and how do you view that experience given your current vegan life choice?

4.) The soy you eat -- do you know where it comes from and which wildlife species that were displaced in order to grow it?

5.) Was your vegan choice based more on health or ethical concerns?

and finally...

6.) In your opinion is the vegan lifestyle better for the environment for everyone all over the planet regardless of where they live?

[spartacus]

Because MT apparently had great compassion for the suffering of people, it's difficult to imagine that she never ever considered the suffering of animals, raised for food. But all she needed to think or say was "well if God apparently indicates in The Bible that animal suffering doesn't matter, who am I to contradict God?". In that instance, ignorance and selfishness would appear not to enter into it.

leedsVeg

Traditionally, at least in Orthodox Christian traditions and years ago in the Roman Catholic traditions, many people who live a monastic life do not eat meat. They will though keep livestock, eat dairy products and eggs and also eat fish.

[cobweb]

Why is this question for 'Brits especially'?????

Can I ask YOU a question before answering yours?. Please answer 100% honestly.
Do most people in the area where you live, eat wild animals that they have hunted and/or farmed themselves?.
Do they eat fruit or vegetables?. Rice?. Beans?.
Do they make all their own cleaning products?.
Use cars or trucks?.
Or do you have no supermarkets or stores in your area?.

[fiamma]

Do any vegans acknowledge the environmental and health benefits of the diets of traditional hunter/gather and farmer/hunter cultures of North America?

I don't acknowledge them, because I wasn't aware there were any... However if there are I am open to having my mind changed.

[Lars]

1.) I can't really answer well on this as i live in Australia and it never gets cold enough to stop local food production in my region. But I suppose it would be a winter diet full of winter vegetable..root vegetable along with grains that have been harvested over spring etc also preserves made from summer, so there would be breads, seed oils, you could make soups and so on. It wouldn't be the most varied diet but thats what you'd give up if you go back to old style living..it has been done before

2.) I don't because I'm australian, but along the same lines i don't subscribe to any of the hunter/gatherings of our native people - because they ate alot of meat (and we are now at a point with so many different introduced foods that meat is not necessary..nor would it have been back then but it would have been easier) and I live in the suburbs so i'm not going to go steal berries from peoples front gardens

3.) I'm sure I killed a snail when i was a child but I did feel bad. Also soon I'm pretty sure my dog will be euthanised, he has bad arthritis and breathing difficulties, his quality of life is declining, he may be put down, no easy thing but if he is in too much pain it's the humane thing to do, if i was old and in such pain i'd want the same.

4.) No I don't but thanks to tis question i'm going to research it more. I don't think it would be wrong to assume that commercial farming and the introduction of cattle to many places over the world (especially here in australia) has destroys many millions of hectares of once pristine bush, ruined the ground and in turn displaces species. Same goes for many different crops.

5.) Ethical. I've always had a kinship with animals and have grown up in modern society where we are sort of brainashed and have ideals and idea pushed onto us without even rally noticing, people become disconnected from their feed, they don't know what it goes to to get to their plate, they don't realise the steak on their plate used is no different to their muscles, that animal had a mother and siblings, it could show happiness and sorrow and could scream and sow objection to the cruelty it most likely faced. I was vegetarian and then i found out about bobby calves.

and finally...

6.) I would say yes as if the large majority went vegan the environmental improvements would be felt across the world but i do understand that people do live in places where our lifestyle might not be feasible (eskimos perhaps? im not too familiar with their diet apart from them eating seal). That being said People could move to a less hospitable climate..im not really too concerned about traditions, alot of people get away with murder, literally in the name of tradition.

[Lars]

gosh ignore my spelling mistakes, its early morning and i haven't had a coffee!

[missbettie]

tee hee hee FOUND IT!!!

[Tish]

Hi Spartacus.

1) This question is hard to answer as I don't live in that kind of climate. It snows in Scotland maybe around one month a year if even- some years it just snows a few days here and there. For where I live though we have local fortnightly farmer's markets so I can get seasonal vegatables all year. The supermarkets also stock plenty of Scottish or UK produce. I also try to eat seasonally and am learning more about this. I do buy some processed foods but could manage to live without them. I also use dried foods such as barley, split peas, porridge oats etc.- I'm not sure if that is what you mean by preserved?

2) I'm afraid I don't know much about traditional hunting or farming in North America. In terms of the environmental benefits of even traditional farming (as opposed to factory farming) I can't really think of any benefits? In terms of health benefits I cannot see any- only health problems. It is worth looking at a book called 'The China Study' by Professor T. Colin Campbell. He is not an animal rights person but a scientist who is interested in human health. The effects of animal products in (particularly western) diets on the human body in creating disease and illness that is studied in this book is frightening.

3) I have never killed an animal since being vegan. If I had to make a decision to euthanase a much-loved pet I would do this with the animal's best interest at heart. I feel the idea of veganism is to do no harm or cause no suffering to animal- therefore I could not stand by and watch an animal suffer terribly for the sake of 'not killing' when I had the power to help it- even if this means euthanasia. This is a situation where an animal is very ill/dying. I definitely wouldn't now have an animal killed for me so I could have a meal or a purse or something- although I did used to when I was an omnivore but see things very differently now.

4) I'm afraid I don't know where the soy comes from that I eat or what is displaced for it. Like Lars mentioned this is something I should probably look into as I have heard much about this problem. I have also read that around 90% of soy produced is used to feed livestock (I am sorry I don't have a reference source for this but would probably be easy to find stuff about it). The World Health Organisation did a report in 2006 recommending people eat less meat for environmental reasons- there may be something in that?

5) My vegan choice was ethical. I watched a film called 'Earthlings'- well I watched some of it: it was very hard to watch- and stopped using animal products immediately. I just felt I couldn't justify cows and other animals having terrible lives and pain, having their calves taken away, being killed at a very young age, being improperly slaughtered (not stunned right, skinned alive etc.)- when I could live perfectly fine without.

If you see stuff like this I found I can't look at things the same- I don't see 'meat' any more when I'm in the supermarket, I see a pig's back, or a cow's shoulder etc. and imagine how their lives were before they got killed. I know that sounds strange but I think what I'm trying to explain is that it's not even a 'choice'- I simply can't look at things the same. I guess the only way I could describe this feeling for those who eat meat would be the revulsion/disgust you would feel if you were chomping into a pie to be told it was made from 'human'. That's the feeling I get at the thought of eating dead animal bodies.

6) I feel the vegan diet is better for everyone in terms of health, environmental impact and on a more 'spiritual' humane level. I think though it's up to people to make their own choices and it should not be forced on them. Things in farming are very hidden away in general but almost every day in the news there is stuff about health (swine flu, bird flu, CJD, antibiotic resistant illnesses) and animal cruelty so I think awareness is growing.

Well done for looking into how to have less impact on your environment- good luck with it

[spartacus]

Learn to love humus, peanut butter, and Nutella!

These spreads can often be used in place of cheese.

Also find some new vegan food you think your dad might really love and have him try it without telling him it's vegan.

[cobweb]

Do you always avoid answering questions, Spartacus?.

[leedsveg]

Do you always avoid answering questions, Spartacus?.

Unlike the original Spartacus who was famed for revolting, friend spartacus only seems interested in defending the staus quo of the meat munchers.

lv

[Cupid Stunt]

Unlike the original Spartacus who was famed for revolting ..

This Spartacus is quite a nice chap but does something that is revolting?

[cobweb]

Difficult to converse with someone who doesn't like 2-way communications eh...........

[fiamma]

Just to point out that the "real" Nutella isn't vegan...
But there are various brands of dairy-free chocolate-hazelnut spread on the market; just make sure you read the labels carefully.

[leedsveg]

Difficult to converse with someone who doesn't like 2-way communications eh...........

If he doesn't convert us to accept his ideas (which he won't) and if he doesn't get converted by our ideas (he might, or he might not) then I don't think he'll stick around too long.

lv

[harpy]

I'm Spartacus!

[harpy]

Hello If you're like me (not much willpower and also rather contrary- minded ) I should try not to think about avoiding cheese or finding substitutes at first and just concentrate on finding plenty of vegan foods you like. That way you can phase out dairy produce and not feel deprived because you will be eating other nice stuff.

I did eat quite a lot of dairy produce, esp when I was lacto-veg for a year or so before becoming vegan, and thought I would find it hard to manage without but honestly I don't miss it it all now, or even think about it. As spartacus said hummus and nut butters (and also seed butters such as tahini) often come in handy when you might have had cheese before, e.g. as a snack with crackers or bread, or on a baked potato.

[cobweb]

Harpy have you gone insane after you scary experience the other day?

[cobweb]

*your* scary experience

[Johnstuff]

Perhaps there are some places where humans shouldn't live.
The UK is cold enough!
You really wanna be a hunter gatherer in a cold climate?
Sounds like a harsh life!

[leedsveg]

Nonsense, I'M Spartacus!