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Thread: How do you view vegetarians?

  1. #51
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I agree with Sandra too. (I know that by "trying to "convert"' Sandra means explaining the relevant facts to people who seem interested, rather than haranguing or berating people which is counterproductive, with the sort of people I know anyway.)

  2. #52
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Bless vegetarians or any intermediate dietary move as it shows the progression of say a toddler on training wheels to the BMX champion. 100% veganism is not an option however a constant endeavor towards less cruelty certainly is. If a vegetarian lifestyles helps spread information on compassion, then a vegan lifestyle is to spread deeper information. This is not to place vegans on a pedestal in any way, as no 'degree' or even 'knowledge' is required, there is a psycho/spiritual step that has brought us here and you can't fake that feeling nor can you induce it by a specific situation. For example 'Earthlings' does not provoke everyone into becoming a Vegan, there is no set 'vegan conversion method' and so what would be pro-active is selfless-support. Educate through compassion. In a way, one could view it as a bonzai tree next to an oak tree. Neither are 'better' trees, one may be more established, older but does that make it 'better'? "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" situation here. So nurture them bonzais!

    In a way, the next generation Vegan should be the original vegan 2.0 version! There is an indian quote...

    "we do not inherit the land from our ancestors, but borrow it from our children"

    Similarly, we are to provide the next generation Vegan with information. Now who has the power? The power of continuation?

    Namaste

  3. #53
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I agree with those who say
    I view vegetarians as enlightened people who aren't quite 'there' yet

    that is exactly my position. Indeed I support anyone who choses to change their actions in order to cause less suffering. Including those meat eaters who chose to switch to less cruel methods. It is a step in the right direction. I encourage them to make further steps.

    After all I was a vegetarian before I was a vegan,

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Cheese isn't a vegetable.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I personally would never judge anyone for their decisions in life - I'm no better than anyone else and far from perfect so don't feel I have the capacity to judge anyone!!!! I understand the whole argument about veggies knowing the torture and abuse that happens against animals, therefore should take the full commitment against any animal product, but as long as their doing some good and doing their bit to help the cause - isn't that better than nothing???
    I was a veggie for a while before becoming vegan and it shouldn't be something to take lightly, it's a huge step to cut all diary products and possibly changing things within your lifestyle. I researched and planned my transition and would of challenged anyone for judging me making this decision in my own time!!
    And I agree with you Andy, its far easier to encourage and support veggies to take the final step as they already have the empathy there from cutting meat out. But meat eaters tend to be happily ignorant and prefer not to know so they can carry on eating their beefburgers and steak pies.
    Veggies have empathy and care for animals and the suffering they experience, why not try to spread the word of vegan-ism and support veggies to cut diary out rather than judging them completely..??
    Blessed Be .... SongOfSusannah

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Hello to all vegans out there, this is my first post on the forum!- good to know there are so many like-minded people .Its all about making the complete connection. I became vegetarian about 13 years ago because loving animals I couldn't justify eating them. I didnt at that time link eating dairy to the full atrocities - and how ignorant I was! I then became vegan about 5 years ago after informing myself of all the wider issues. So when I see vegetarians, I see the place I used to be in and hope in time they wiil become better informed and do the same. Yes I agree vegetarians are definitely easier to talk to and don't react in the same manner if you tell them you're vegan. Talking to a meat eater about veganism , I find pretty pointless when they have no awareness of the issues or even want to try to understand.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I do not understand the notion of not judging anyone for their life decisions. This is surely liberal nonsense no? Can one not judge the rapist? the violent sadist? the serial killer? Stalin? I think as we each have our opinons of what is right and wrong, in terms of action, then surely we can not excuse another of something we would not do ourselves? If one were to disagree with this position then we could rightly say they are employing 'liberal arrogance'. To not hold one to ones standards is to view them as lesser than you. By respecting one as equal to yourself you can then value them and themby judge their conduct.

    Raping and killing are wrong! I no more agree / respect a human who does this to another human-animal than one who consumes dairy etc...If you are veggie with the view of one becoming vegan then that is one thing. However, those who reside forever as a veggie annoy me more than meat eaters.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I was raised veggie as my parents both are lacto-ovo/lacto vegetarians. They have both supported my transition to veganism in a big way as have my vegetarian friends - moreso than some of my omni friends who find the whole concept extreme and alien. Of course I feel that I have seen the light now and look to my 'old' self with new eyes and see where I had been going wrong for so long. But I was not a bad person being vegetarian- I just wasn't as enlightened as I am now. It is a journey I regret not taking sooner and if I could go back and speak to the vegetarian me all them years ago I would rant and rave about how amazing a change it is. But I wouldn't berate myself or anything like that because I didn't know any better. I didn't realise the difference being vegan would make in all aspects. I feel like that vegetarianism could be just that middle stepping stone to becoming vegan - the vegetarians I know do so for ethical reasons. I would imagine that in time, once they know fully what the impact their diet was still having on all them animals exploited daily, they would come to the decision that veganism is for them. But it is a personal choice, and one that may take them a while. It took me long enough! I think the vegetarians who are so for ethical reasons or from a love for animals - they should be encouraged and 'shown' the way. I am soon to be seeing my best friend and we have decided to watch 'Earthlings'. She is a lacto-ovo veggie who became pescatarian first, then veggie on account of seeing 50 chicken hearts for sale at a butchers in France. So who knows!

  9. #59
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I view them as dairy addicts. Not entirely their fault.


    Chocolate, Cheese, Meat, and Sugar -- Physically Addictive
    Last edited by Consistency; Mar 2nd, 2012 at 10:23 PM.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Cheese isn't a vegetable.
    Nor is Salt.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I was vegetarian for 21 years since I was born, and only in the past month have I become vegan. I think a lot of vegetarians do not understand the extent of dairy farming. I certainly didn't, and imagined dairy cows to be happy in a field off in the distance. Then I watched Earthlings.. couldn't get too far through it because it honestly broke my heart, but within the first 15 minutes I had decided that I couldn't justify drinking milk when my reasons for being a vegetarian were animal welfare. It just seems so contrary! I think you are right, nut_cutlet, vegetarians mean well but need to be shown the way. If I had seen this 3 years ago it would have had the same affect!

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I try to veiw vegetarians as not being there yet but the problem is a lot of them do not ever want to get there. I was vegetarian for 14yrs befor i was vegan and making the change took time but when i got to know that dairy was as cruel as meat i had to give it up. Vegetarian is a good place to start but being vegan is the place to finish!

  13. #63
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I tend to view vegetarians as uncommitted, as halfway there, as not trying. I get annoyed when they're proud of being vegetarian because they're not helping animals, so I don't engage with them.

  14. #64
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    they're not helping animals
    Of course they do:They make animal farming less profitable by not buying meat, and reduce the overall number of requests for meat. When people eat less meat, fewer animals are raised for food/fewer animals suffer.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I have found it quite frustrating trying to talk to vegetarians about veganism because I think they can be quite set in their ways. I know I never planned to improve when I was veggie - I just cut out meat and thought that was enough. Anyway, it's hard to generalise. Some of them are very open to learning and changing and some of them aren't.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I was a vegetarian for seven years before becoming Vegan. I didn't know any better. I thought I was helping. I used to think Vegans were all sickly and crazy. In the end, it took me that long to really open my eyes. I did it all on my own. I have no Vegan friends in real life. I didn't have anyone telling me what was healthy, or what was humane. Once I realized my mistake, I switched as quickly as I could. My vegetarianism ended up being a stepping stone, even though it didn't start out that way. Although I wish I had switched much much sooner, I am glad I at least took that step when I did. The only time vegetarians irk me is when they aren't willing to learn more. A lot of them don't know any better.

  17. #67
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote LouiseAbel View Post
    I have found it quite frustrating trying to talk to vegetarians about veganism because I think they can be quite set in their ways.
    I'd agree with this - I get so bored of the argument 'but I love cheese/chocolate'. Given how many times I had a similar discussion with omni's about bacon butties and surely they must do to?

    From what I have seen there are a lot of people who go vegetarian for different reasons other than animal abuse so it's hard to find the ones who really care. Although, I work with three veggies who are 'in it for animals' went for milkshakes (I had a smoothie) and they ordered marshmallows. Told them about gelatin and they both looked at my blankly and continued to order and eat them.
    Oh and another veggie at work, apparently in it for the animals. Sat going on about how veganism was a waste of time and they are all just extremists - no point veggie's do all the leg work in stopping meat industry blah blah. I'm not a violent person but I could have smacked her I tell ya. When she stopped talking I did kindly told her I was vegan and why she was wrong

    I prefer to talk veganism with omni's than veggie's much for the reasons stated above. I find they have more of an open mind. But again sweeping generalisation and I once was a veggie.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I have been a vegetarian for 2 years now and throughout was very open to "experimenting" with vegan food with the guidance of a close friend who became vegan around the same time. Recently, I decided to try out a strict vegan diet. As someone who has identified herself as a vegetarian until very recently, I have to say that I found some of the previous posts to be somewhat offensive. I obviously have great respect for vegans, having a number of vegan friends, but I do not believe that vegetarians deserve any less respect--one's diet being a personal choice, for one thing. And for another, many posts have largely portrayed vegetarians as "unenlightened" or unconcerned with animal welfare.

    I think for many who have been vegan for a number of years, it is hard to understand where the vegetarian is coming from. For me personally, I did not go vegan sooner for a number of reasons, perhaps largely a result of naivety. As a number of people have responded to this thread, many vegetarians simply do not know the suffering that the animals experience for the sake of milk and eggs. I know I didn't until I really started to do my research (including reading "Eating Animals," which I would strongly recommend to anyone who hasn't read it yet.) Also, becoming vegan when you have been raised on a typical "meat-eaters diet" is a very scary step for many. I think on many levels I put off trying out a vegan lifestyle thinking that I would be ashamed if I was unable to follow through. You also have to take into consideration where one lives. I myself live on Long Island, a place that does not provide easy access to vegan food and certainly views even vegetarianism as simply a radical ideology or a trend. Given all the mockery I was subjected to for becoming vegetarian, the idea of becoming vegan was almost unfathomable to me for some time. And this is not to say that I didn't care enough about animals to overcome all of these factors. In fact, animal suffering was my sole motivation for becoming vegetarian, even before I recognized the negative impact eating meat has on human health and the negative impact that the actions of factory farms have on the environment as a whole.

    Point being:
    1) Vegetarianism does still make a difference (though perhaps smaller) for the animals, the environment, and human health;
    2) It is not fair to judge vegetarians as morally inferior to vegans when you do not know the circumstances or the logic behind the choice to be vegetarian rather than vegan; and
    3) Having a positive outlook and presenting the facts in a non-judgmental way is a much more effective means of helping meat-eaters and vegetarians to see the benefits of a vegan lifestyle and it is comments like some that I have read here that generally lead omnivores to view vegans, and vegetarians, as self-righteous snobs--ultimately turning them off to the idea of giving up meat.

    Just a thought.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote krihu View Post
    I have been a vegetarian for 2 years now and throughout was very open to "experimenting" with vegan food with the guidance of a close friend who became vegan around the same time. Recently, I decided to try out a strict vegan diet. As someone who has identified herself as a vegetarian until very recently, I have to say that I found some of the previous posts to be somewhat offensive. I obviously have great respect for vegans, having a number of vegan friends, but I do not believe that vegetarians deserve any less respect--one's diet being a personal choice, for one thing.
    It's not personal when it involves others. Would you call rape, slavery, violence, abuse, theft, abduction, eugenics... done do others a personal choice? Or only when it involves non-human animals but not when it involves human animals.

    Quote krihu View Post
    And for another, many posts have largely portrayed vegetarians as "unenlightened" or unconcerned with animal welfare.
    I think for many who have been vegan for a number of years, it is hard to understand where the vegetarian is coming from. For me personally, I did not go vegan sooner for a number of reasons, perhaps largely a result of naivety. As a number of people have responded to this thread, many vegetarians simply do not know the suffering that the animals experience for the sake of milk and eggs. I know I didn't until I really started to do my research (including reading "Eating Animals," which I would strongly recommend to anyone who hasn't read it yet.) Also, becoming vegan when you have been raised on a typical "meat-eaters diet" is a very scary step for many. I think on many levels I put off trying out a vegan lifestyle thinking that I would be ashamed if I was unable to follow through. You also have to take into consideration where one lives. I myself live on Long Island, a place that does not provide easy access to vegan food and certainly views even vegetarianism as simply a radical ideology or a trend. Given all the mockery I was subjected to for becoming vegetarian, the idea of becoming vegan was almost unfathomable to me for some time. And this is not to say that I didn't care enough about animals to overcome all of these factors. In fact, animal suffering was my sole motivation for becoming vegetarian, even before I recognized the negative impact eating meat has on human health and the negative impact that the actions of factory farms have on the environment as a whole.
    How about the enslavement and exploitation of other species? Regardless about human health or the environment that should be enough reason to be vegan. It reads a whole lot like the typical excuses and justifications vegetarians make to be honest.

    I can't imagine Long Island being an any harder place to be vegan than where most of the rest of us live...

    www.meetup.com/Vegan-Long-Island/
    http://www.happycow.net/gmaps/search...land&lat=&lon=
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/ny.../29dineli.html
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/ny...h-variety.html


    Quote krihu View Post
    Point being: 1) Vegetarianism does still make a difference (though perhaps smaller) for the animals, the environment, and human health;
    Not killing people when driving drunk but only injuring them makes a difference as well, doesn't justify driving around drunk though.

    Quote krihu View Post
    2) It is not fair to judge vegetarians as morally inferior to vegans when you do not know the circumstances or the logic behind the choice to be vegetarian rather than vegan;
    Information has never been so easy to access as today. If so many vegans managed to become vegan before the internet was here, what logic and circumstances are you hiding behind to justify not being vegan?

    Quote krihu View Post
    and 3) Having a positive outlook and presenting the facts in a non-judgmental way is a much more effective means of helping meat-eaters and vegetarians to see the benefits of a vegan lifestyle and it is comments like some that I have read here that generally lead omnivores to view vegans, and vegetarians, as self-righteous snobs--ultimately turning them off to the idea of giving up meat.
    I'm sure nobody is abusing others or is continue to abuse others because a vegan was mean to them. It's just one more excuse and justification they use. After jokingly stating that "meat tastes so good" they start with name calling like "self-righteous extremists snobs" to defend their behavior. If you don't have any solid arguments why animal exploitation is morally better or just than all you have is dumb jokes and insults.

    Quote krihu View Post
    Just a thought.
    I don't know why your first post on a vegan forum, right after joining it, would be to defend vegetarians if you have the intention of living a vegan lifestyle (I hope you don't just do a vegan diet, because then you might still find comments about that which you might not like).

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote Korn View Post
    Of course they do:They make animal farming less profitable by not buying meat, and reduce the overall number of requests for meat. When people eat less meat, fewer animals are raised for food/fewer animals suffer.
    I don't know about that. All the spent chickens and spent cows and male calves are killed anyway. If there is no demand for the meat the prices will drop resulting in cheaper meat. Cheaper meat probably results in an increase in demand as more people can afford larger quantities of it. Also things as ready-meals might see an increase in the portion of meat used in them if meat becomes the cheaper ingredient. And McDonald's might do more promotions for 1$ meals if they can still make a profit on it because of the lower cost price, promotions like that undoubtedly increases demand.

    So the 'net profit' of vegetarianism might be completely cancelled out by the supply and demand mechanism. Not demanding any parts of the animals is the only thing that makes sense.

  21. #71
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Although I agree with CoolCat that having a diet which causes suffering and death for others is an action which clearly goes beyond the 'personal' sphere only, I can see that some vegans have a very judgmental, patronizing and holier-than-thou approach to non-vegans - which I'm sure can turn people's (potential) interest in going vegan off.

    Quote krihu View Post

    1) Vegetarianism does still make a difference (though perhaps smaller) for the animals, the environment, and human health;
    True, but there's a dilemma baked into that fact. Some lacto-vegetarians use more animal products than the average omnivore: they don't know much about nutrition (B12, calcium, protein etc), and therefore compensate for the nutrients they don't yet get from non-animal sources with very large amounts cheese, milk, eggs, yogurt and so on. At the same time, they feel that they are making a lot of difference, which can contribute to never going further than just lacto(-ovo)-vegetarianism.

    2) It is not fair to judge vegetarians as morally inferior to vegans when you do not know the circumstances or the logic behind the choice to be vegetarian rather than vegan; and [...]
    In one way, it's never fair to judge anyone: There's always a reason why people do what they do.
    My feeling is that practically no vegetarians ever promote the use of eggs, dairy products or leather/fur etc. They just use these products out of old habits, so you won't see a lot of 'logic' behind the decision to keep using some animal products. In most cases, I don't think a conscious decision to keep using these products even exists.

    Have you ever seen a lacto-vegetarian hand out pamphlets encouraging people to use dairy products, eggs or leather? Neither have I....

    3) Having a positive outlook and presenting the facts in a non-judgmental way is a much more effective means of helping meat-eaters and vegetarians to see the benefits of a vegan lifestyle
    A positive outlook is often a lot more successful approach than a negative one. At the same time: This isn't only about the "benefits of a vegan diet". When the vegan movement was born in the 1940s, there weren't any known benefits of eating vegan at all: Donald Watson once said that he "hoped" that a vegan diet at least was as healthy as a standard diet.

    But being judgmental against people is different from condemning the many torture-like processes animals in the meat and dairy industry have to go through in order to 'become food' (and leather etc). If we for a second ignore the now known health benefits of going vegan and focus on the suffering, stress, pain and unhappiness these animal go through, a suggestion about being more positive and non-judgmental makes a little less sense, just like it would be kind of strange to ask someone who are campaigning against rape, violence against children or political torture to smile more and try to appear more 'positive'. I still agree that a judgmental approach against new/potential (or even existing) vegans often can result in these people losing interest in a vegan lifestyle.


    it is comments like some that I have read here that generally lead omnivores to view vegans, and vegetarians, as self-righteous snobs--ultimately turning them off to the idea of giving up meat.
    Please post some examples.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  22. #72
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    Information has never been so easy to access as today. If so many vegans managed to become vegan before the internet was here....[...]
    The number of people who went vegan before internet was actually quote low. There's a lot of info about vegan food and veganism on the net now: it's easy to access, but that doesn't make much of a difference if people don't try to access it.

    But I don't think difficult vs non-difficult is so important: what matters is if people think it's difficult or not. And if they really do think it's difficult, it won't make much difference if a bunch of brilliant vegans on some remote forum agree that it's easy.


    I'm sure nobody is abusing others or is continue to abuse others because a vegan was mean to them.
    People have a tendency of 'grouping' thoughts. Some even think that if they can't be perfect vegans, there's no reason to avoid animal products at all. If they see vegans as a neurotic-obsessive lot who fail to see that there are others out there who in many ways make sense - and make a difference - too, they may just focus less on the idea of avoiding animal products altogether.

    There's a reason TV commercials work - including those commercials who don't mention anything about the quality of a product: people like to associate themselves with 'something' nice/good, or with a group of people they like/can identify themselves with. That's why these commercials use models to sell both cars and chicken burgers.

    If vegans repeatedly state the obvious, claim that no others make sense, or keep using a off-putting vocabulary (we have a member who have called meat eaters "necrotarians" in many posts lately), we may be executing the opposite of the TV commercial effect, and stand out as someone they don't like even before they have consider if going vegan is something they agree in.




    I don't know why your first post on a vegan forum, right after joining it, would be to defend vegetarians
    The thing about 'personal choice' may be a way of defending/justifying a lacto-vegetarian lifestyle, but other than that, it seems like krihu is saying the same thing many vegans say (when talking about why they used to use animal products in the past).

    CoolCat To Krihu:
    I hope you don't just do a vegan diet, because then you might still find comments about that which you might not like
    CoolCat to me:
    Not demanding any parts of the animals is the only thing that makes sense.
    You're stating the obvious here.... ;-)

    Krihu: I partially agree with you. I have had to moderate posts and accounts, a number of times, from vegans who keep yelling at others - including yelling at fellow vegans. Vegans may be irrational, impatient, tired, confused and arrogant - just like non-vegans. But my feeling, after having run this site for almost 9 years, that almost all vegans belong in the other category, and clearly understand why many people use animal products. After all, most of us were non-vegans before we became vegans, so it shouldn't be that hard, really, to have a non-judgmental approach to people who think and do what we used to think and do earlier - even if we are against some of their actions.

    ETA:

    PS - There's a reason why this subforum is called "Vegetarians and ex-vegans - welcome!"
    Last edited by Korn; Jun 14th, 2012 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Post was poorly written. In a hurry...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote Korn View Post
    You're stating the obvious here.... ;-)
    I can portray a happy cheery vegan and be part of the lovely bunch and be cool to hang out with... just until the rape and abuse starts, then I turn bitter, disappointed and sad.

    I agree that a way to reach the masses is to dumb things down to a ridiculous level as advertisements indeed proves over and over. There is a cheese here that has the most awful advertisement (http://www.ina.fr/pub/alimentation-b...-molle.fr.html). They act like their cheese is made from wheat, removing the role cows played completely. There is even a picture of a wheat field on the label and in the TV ad a round patch of wheat morphs into the cheese. The worst part is that people indeed actually buy into this crap and happy image. But not exploiting others can't be in a constant competition with exploiting them. Unless you have a market monopoly like some big companies have, being one of many choices is a never ending battle for market share. And being vegan isn't just a choice, it's a bare minimum.

    Removing the ethics from vegan message and just portraying it as some cool thing to do might win over a few people, but do those really matter if the message is lost? Feminists didn't say "chicks are cool, come hang out with us" to get equal rights, they spoke their mind and told the rest what is wrong. And it worked, well is working... not quite there yet in many places.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Removing the ethics from vegan message and just portraying it as some cool thing to do might win over a few people, but do those really matter if the message is lost?
    No vegans would agree in removing ethics from the vegan message.


    Feminists didn't say "chicks are cool, come hang out with us"
    No, and hopefully no vegans do that either. I was talking about the opposite: that some vegans - with or without knowing it - portray vegans as something extremely uncool - by being rude, insulting and arrogant against people who live and think exactly like these vegans did only a few months or years ago.

    The whole thing reminds me a bit of some people who just quit smoking, who are way more sensitive towards - and annoyed by - the smell of tobacco than the average non-smoker is.

    Less than a week ago, one of our members wrote "I don't respect the opinion of any necrotarian "expert". You can't think clearly unless you're vegan." If I would have been a non-vegan and read that, and thereby get the impression that (some) vegans think that they are the only people pn the planet who can think 'clearly' and saw me as a 'necrotarian', I doubt that my interest in veganism would increase.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote krihu View Post
    I think for many who have been vegan for a number of years, it is hard to understand where the vegetarian is coming from. For me personally, I did not go vegan sooner for a number of reasons, perhaps largely a result of naivety.
    Same here. I was a meat-eater for many years because of naivety. I never made the connection between killing an animal that I would never kill and buying the meat in supermarkets. We aren't talking about this in this thread per se. -- I'm sure that everyone can agree that we are talking about the vegetarians that know about where their dairy is coming from, how calves get killed for veal and still continue to consume dairy despite of the truth.

    Most vegans view vegetarians and meat-eaters as inferior(we have no respect for you) because meat-eaters and vegetarians have no respect for our decisions, they continue to put us down for making our own independent decisions and continue to disrespect us by preventing us vegans from following the forbidden path, the correct path. We vegans are not sheeple anymore. Understand it and you will see where we are coming from.

    Maybe vegans also subconsciously have no respect for vegetarians because VEGetarian seems to stand for eating plants, not dairy. Vegetarianism should be renamed to dairytarianism.

    Meat-eaters and vegetarians are the ones with psychological problems. The fear of making mistakes and learning from them. The fear of discovering and experimenting. The fear of jumping out of their comfort zone. Of course you stated some of these same statements with different words. We vegans were in these same shoes; we speak from experience.
    Last edited by Consistency; Jun 14th, 2012 at 01:45 PM.

  26. #76
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    Quote Consistency View Post
    Maybe vegans also subconsciously have no respect for vegetarians because VEGetarian seems to stand for eating plants, not dairy. Vegetarianism should be renamed to dairytarianism.
    My understanding is that the term 'vegan' is a relatively new one. That vegetarianism (which used to be what we now call veganism) got hi-jacked by dairy eaters to such a degree that a new term was needed to differentiate those who stuck to the original vegetarian principles from them.

    If the current trend of fish and white meat eaters claiming the vegetarian flag continues there may have to be further redefinitions would be my prediction.


    This is probably not dissimilar to how the 'flag' of marriage (originaly a life long contract, strictly twix a man and a woman, with death the only let out clause) has been hi-jacked and become something totaly unrecognisable from the original principles by which it gained it's reputation.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Back when i was very little vegetarians were green people, aliens who like vegetables. One day I burst out laughing when i suddenly realised i was getting green too and got strange glances in my direction (i was in the health/veg section of the supermarket).
    More seriously, i know in France it's a really hard task because our cooking is based on traditions, there are so many ways of cooking meat that we forget what meat is, and not eating meat is near impossible, it's like we put our health in danger and we're irresponsible. Making people change views is hard, from my point of vue things are better now that nature is fashionable again, but there is still a lot of preconceived ideas on vegetarians.

    The problem is, when we hear about vegetarians it's about shock campaigns, people advocating against eating foie gras at Christmas or wearing fur coats. I don't like aggressive actions, it rubs me the wrong way because i feel like the message is shoved down my throat, and there really is no need because i share the same opinion. I'm not sure this kind of action has a positive long term effect. Plus the rest of the time, nothing. Unless you already are vegetarian/vegan, the mass public doesn't really have an easy access to positive information on the subject, i found recently a few health/organic living magazines with an article about vegetarians, and it's always looked upon through the lens of lacks of vitamins or minerals. A cause for concern of course, but you don't get this frequently in animal based cooking. It feels like you have to prove, justify yourself, and i don't see why i should. So i don't like much those vegetarian french militants who make my daily life slightly harder when i get into a conversation about being veg.
    Plus i also have this food intolerance issue that fell on my head when i was diagnosed about 2 years ago, so that infamous question about "so, what do you eat exactly?" gets asked more often now, especially considering i'm quite open minded on the subject. So i have to compromise between what my body thinks is poison, and what i don't want to eat but is safe on a health level. I recently went on a weekend with friends, and when you have to pack a few survival things and pay for the rest of the food bought for the weekend, it feels a bit frustrating because the others have an easier life.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Coolcat:

    Yes, it is a personal choice. And all of those things you mentioned are "personal choices" on some level. People CHOOSE to do those things to others. The difference is there are laws in place to protect people from rape, slavery, violence, and the like. Unfortunately, the laws that do exist for the sake of animal welfare are rarely enforced because a large percentage of the world's population does not care about the suffering animals endure for the sake of their food. That does not change the fact that it is a personal choice and no one can tell you what to put to in YOUR body.

    You must have missed my point: I AM vegan. It took me 2 years, yes, but the knowledge that I have now of the practices used to obtain dairy products was enough motivation for me to make the change. I never said that I needed the reasons of human health or environmental protection as justification for becoming vegan. Those just further enforce my decision.

    And perhaps Long Island isn't the hardest place to be vegan, but I will say I have only been able to find about three exclusively vegan restaurants. Otherwise, I'm constantly asking what's in this or that anytime I go to a restaurant. Regardless, in saying that, I was simply making the point that it is unfair to make a blanket statement about vegetarians since you do not know everyone's individual circumstances, just as I would not make a blanket statement about vegans based on the judgment I just received from you.

    That entire response is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the first place. Vegans and vegetarians are fighting for the same cause and should do so together, not spend time attacking one another. My point really was that the small percentage of vegans who only portray judgment and belief of moral superiority turn off potential vegans (whether they be vegetarians or omnivores) because people begin to think of veganism as a trend or something that people use to set themselves apart from others so that they may feel superior. I know because I used to be one of those people. No one is suggesting that you or anyone else be a sunny, smiley vegan who portrays veganism as a "cool" thing to do, I am simply saying that kind encouragement goes a lot further than outright judgment.

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    Quote krihu View Post
    ... And perhaps Long Island isn't the hardest place to be vegan, but I will say I have only been able to find about three exclusively vegan restaurants. ...
    I would kill for three exclusively vegan places nearby. We have none


    Quote krihu View Post
    ... Regardless, in saying that, I was simply making the point that it is unfair to make a blanket statement about vegetarians since you do not know everyone's individual circumstances, just as I would not make a blanket statement about vegans based on the judgment I just received from you. ...
    Medical reasons aside of people who need meds and stuff, people that choose to use eggs, milk, fish, get a blanket statement about that, just like the pedophiles get one, or the rapists, or the murderers. I don't know what someones motivation is to touch small boys, rape women or kill others and I simply don't care to be honest. When you deliberately cause harm to others when you could have easily avoided it I have not much sympathy for you, but more so for the victim.

    Quote krihu View Post
    That entire response is a perfect example of what I was talking about in the first place. Vegans and vegetarians are fighting for the same cause and should do so together, not spend time attacking one another.
    I don't think vegans and vegetarians are fighting the same cause at all. Otherwise vegetarians wouldn't be part of the problem or be prolonging it. With promoting eggs, cheese, milk, honey, they are actually contributing to the problem, not trying to solve it. Vegetarians have more in common with the omni crowd than with the vegan bunch.

    Quote krihu View Post
    My point really was that the small percentage of vegans who only portray judgment and belief of moral superiority turn off potential vegans (whether they be vegetarians or omnivores) because people begin to think of veganism as a trend or something that people use to set themselves apart from others so that they may feel superior. I know because I used to be one of those people. No one is suggesting that you or anyone else be a sunny, smiley vegan who portrays veganism as a "cool" thing to do, I am simply saying that kind encouragement goes a lot further than outright judgment.
    Being vegan isn't an elitist club... if anyone thinks it's about superiority and they want to be included all they have to do is go vegan. If people turn away from veganism because "they are a self righteous bunch that act moral superior" or "vegans are mean" then they are just making excuses. You can be perfectly vegan without labeling yourself as such or seeking any contact with other vegans. It's just excuses to continue to harm others without wanting to be accountable for their own actions, and worse: blaming it on vegans. We can't go pat people on the back for begin vegetarian, or say "no worries dude, enjoy your steak"... If we come across as moral superior maybe that is because the person looking at us has conflicts within their own ethics. If you don't want to be judge for not being vegan, go vegan. It's that simple...

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    If they are ethical vegetarians, i am happy for them. The way i tend to see it, even with meat eaters, is that we were all (cepts lifelong ones vegans) omnivores at one point, just check out Why weren't you vegan before you were vegan. Nobody here is saying that eating animal products is justifiable, it is NOT.

    But it was 16 years before i went vegetarian, and the reason i was omni before was ignorant rationalizations. I didn't go vegan for a few years simply out of the similar ignorance and thinking it was "enough" (though i rarely if ever ate eggs or milk). Once a friend of mine (vegan) turned me on to the cruelty in the dairy and egg industries, i made the declaration that i was vegan for good.

    My point is along the lines of many other responders. Vegetarians for ethical reasons are people who don't know a piece of information that would probably convince them to go vegan. Even if it took time and they did know of cruelty but weren't strong enough, if we give them the benefit of the doubt and see them as allies not enemies we will better be able to help them go vegan.

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    I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change. I have been a Veg for most of my life, on and off. The last few years, I've eaten meat a handful of times and I know where it came from and how it was raised. I eat a bit of cheese and dairy too, but not much. I don't eat much soy or tofu, because I try not to support GMOs or products like soy and corn that are harmful to smaller farmers, who go out of their way to not use pesticides and other poisons, that ultimately end up being consumed by plenty of animals. I don't wear animals or use products tested on or made from them. I don't go to zoos and have a lot of hours spent volunteering with animal rescues, including fostering a lot. I ride a bike when I can and live near work. I make almost no garbage and barely pollute and check into companies to see if they do.

    Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.

    BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading the board a lot.

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    Quote Jamison Pollitt View Post
    Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.
    So you would let the black slave that lived in the attic of the mansion serve you, but you wouldn't eat from the crops that were grown by the slaves living in dirty sheds next to the fields? Because you know house slaves had it slightly 'better' then field slaves... forget about slavery just being wrong, lets apply gradients to it so we can feel happy about ourselves and still get to exploit others.

    Anyway where did this old dairy cow come from? Did your friend just bought her like property? And where did the milk for that parm come from? Was the cow inseminated/raped more kindly? Was her calve dragged away more gently? And what about the rennet for that parm... did a calve just throw it up instead of being slaughtered for it?

    It's just more excuses and self-delusion. Not arrogance by others for pointing it out.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Anyway where did this old dairy cow come from? Did your friend just bought her like property? And where did the milk for that parm come from? Was the cow inseminated/raped more kindly? Was her calve dragged away more gently? And what about the rennet for that parm... did a calve just throw it up instead of being slaughtered for it?
    Exactly. There is no ethical justification. That old dairy cow was still instrumentalized, probably raped to inseminate her, probably had her children stolen and sold off, and now has her own life cut short for something that is completely unnecessary (meat/cheese tasting good).

    For the record, im not accusing you personally (i commend most of the activities you mention above), but pointing out that it still is not ethically justifiable. Whether you eat animal products or not i can't change, but calling it ethically consistent with caring for animals is not correct in that it is still taking pleasure in the suffering and death of an animal.

    Also on the ignorance claim: You either know of the issue and choose not to care or choose not to do as much as you can about it (either apathy or an inconsistency), or you dont know about it (ignorance).

    All of us have inconsistencies, but trying to justify them is an excuse.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Jamison, I don't think cow's having had a 'great life' or having been slaughtered 'humanely' justifies eating meat or dairy, but I understand what you mean about arrogance. Even if you don't wear animal products or use products tested on animals, have eaten meant only a handful of times the last few years, and eat a bit of dairy, your risk being seen - by *some* vegans as someone who doesn't care at all.

    I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change.
    Some people lose interest in veganism if they see arrogance or more or less derogatory comments from vegans, while others don't. I think the best way to avoid such attitudes (of course – next to not eating beef etc) is to not try to justify it. We wouldn't kill and human or a 'pet' even if it was humanely slaughtered, so why should we eat a chicken or cow anyway? Their lives and happiness are as important for them as our lives and happiness is for us.

    From a human-centric perspective, maybe just eating a few chickens or fish is not a big deal, but that picture look different if you see it from the animals' perspective.

    Seems kind of backwards to me.
    You wouldn't want to be killed and eaten, even if you've had a great life. You don't want to be slaughtered either, not even 'humanely'. It is kind of backwards to focus on the few cases of animal product use a person is responsible if he mainly is avoiding animal product and it is kind of backwards to use animal products if you are against doing it. But we can can't change others; we can change ourselves, so I guess you either have to ignore arrogant comments, or stop using animal products and tell certain people who are against using animal products about it.

    I have seen some rude attacks on new vegans or near-vegans here in the past – and have, on more than one occasion - put people on moderated posts for pushing new members away with arrogant and rude comments. I've also seen that even new vegans sometimes say that they can't understand how non-vegans can do this or that, referring to things they have done almost their entire lives. And ironically, some of the people who have been the most arrogant are people who were meat eaters until only a few days or weeks ago.

    Yet, if I eat a piece of beef...
    Out of sheer curiosity: why do you think people eat beef, even if they know about the health risks involved, the environmental effect of billions of people eating meat - and the fact that some other living being has to 'die for their tastebuds'?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Jamison,

    welcome to the forum

    It is good to hear that you try to limit your consumption of animal products.
    What are your reasons for it?

    From what I read in your post, it seems that you do care for animals, which would be a great starting point.

    So why do you still eat meat? To be perfectly open, once I went vegetarian some 20 years ago (largely because seeing footage from slaughterhouses and giving it some consideration), I personally could not stand the stuff any longer.

    Also, if you do like the taste, there are lots of "replacement products" out there (and most of them - at least in Europe - actually in organic quality, so no GMO soy and other evil things there).

    Point is, whenever I talk to friends and colleagues who do eat meat, they tell me that they *only* eat meat from sustainable sources, where they know that the cow was treated well, and very seldom to top it. Of course, I do not inquire further when I see them then at lunchtime (every day) gorging themselves with the standard cafeteria fare or McDonalds stuff, which I am quite sure does *not* come from anything like a "sustainable source".

    How do you handle that? When you are out with friends, and they want to go to a pizza place or burger joint? Do you personally go for vegan options then? I would consider that a challenge, to refrain from eating "crap" animal products that assault you every day on the street, but nevertheless indulge now and then in a "sustainable" product, thus keeping my appetite for animal products up. And yes, I personally also, for 20 years, ate lots of eggs and dairy, simply because I did not think about it any further (and believed that the happy dairy cows on the pastures and free-range chickens happily give up their products every day).

    Now, knowing what I know today (after reading Jonathan Safran Foer's "Eating animals"), I am quite happy with sprinkling Chedaresse (a vegan "cheese" substitute) over my pasta and enjoying my cappuccino with soymilk.

    Best regards,
    Andy

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    Wow, board didn't seem to active, until I made my comments. haha. Hello all. First, the cow in the story, was rescued from a dairy farm. I forget how much my friend pays. Once she has it, the cow lives free for it's life and until there is a health problem or quality of life issue, it's free. Then, everything is used and respected.

    I am interested in veganism because I love animals, respect them as equals and want a clean peaceful planet. I'm 38, I was a strick Veg for about 10 years I think when I was young and went to a slaughterhouse. When family tragedy struck, I forgot about a lot of the things I truly care about. The last 4 years, I've been getting back to that. I've eaten meat maybe 3 times in that time frame.

    One of the reasons I joined the board, is because I've tried numerous times to make a parm replacement for pasta and they are all awful. lol. The store bought ones are great, I agree, but for my long term goals, I'd like to make everything myself.

    Sorry if I came off like a jerk.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Also, I'd like to add, I plan on going the final step and becoming completely Vegan in a few weeks. It's fairly easy where I live to do so.

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    Quote Jamison Pollitt View Post
    I don't understand the arrogance in some of the posts. It certainly doesn't help to introduce a major life change. I have been a Veg for most of my life, on and off. The last few years, I've eaten meat a handful of times and I know where it came from and how it was raised. I eat a bit of cheese and dairy too, but not much. I don't eat much soy or tofu, because I try not to support GMOs or products like soy and corn that are harmful to smaller farmers, who go out of their way to not use pesticides and other poisons, that ultimately end up being consumed by plenty of animals. I don't wear animals or use products tested on or made from them. I don't go to zoos and have a lot of hours spent volunteering with animal rescues, including fostering a lot. I ride a bike when I can and live near work. I make almost no garbage and barely pollute and check into companies to see if they do.

    Yet, if I eat a piece of beef, from an old dairy cow from a friends farm, that had a great life and was slaughtered humanely or want to sprinkle a little parm on my pasta, I'm viewed as an ignorant person who is destroying the world and doesn't care? Seems kind of backwards to me.

    BTW, this is my first post, but I've been reading the board a lot.
    There is no such thing as humane slaughter. It is a complete and utter oxy-moron. If that dairy cow was still alive, then by all intents and purposes it wanted to live. Killing an animal and eating its flesh will never be humane. Even if you plan out exactly how to kill it to cause the least amount of suffering (and let's face, it you didn't kill it yourself so you can't even say that the cow didn't suffer) you are still taking the life of an animal that wants to live.

    Until you can understand that, my friend, you cannot call yourself vegan.

    ETA: Okay, I think this is coming off harsh, in light of your other posts. It's just... you're missing something. I feel like you're so close to getting it, but you don't, not yet. I'm not trying to be mean. Just trying to understand.

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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Jamison you might like to try this recipe http://nouveauraw.com/spreads-cheese...nutsan-cheese/ I haven't made it myself but I really like making almond cheese.

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    Quote Mymblesdaughter View Post
    Jamison you might like to try this recipe http://nouveauraw.com/spreads-cheese...nutsan-cheese/ I haven't made it myself but I really like making almond cheese.
    I've tried so many of the NY nut cheeses and they usually come out way too salty for me. I've tried cutting down on the NY, different types of nuts, everything and none of it tastes good so far.

    I haven't given up, but I don't have much faith in that style of replacement. Also, yes I understand the idea isn't to replace.

  41. #91
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    Quote Jamison Pollitt View Post
    One of the reasons I joined the board, is because I've tried numerous times to make a parm replacement for pasta and they are all awful. lol. The store bought ones are great, I agree, but for my long term goals, I'd like to make everything myself.
    Parmesan was the tough thing for me too. Personally, i have found nutritional yeast to be a decent substitute. Not that it tastes like parm, however, it does smell a lot like it and i think it tastes really great. It also serves as something you can sprinkle over many foods.

    Honestly though, i can't say that there is a great substitute for it, but search around. Personally i was surprised once i set my mind to not eating cheese how simple it was to give it up. I have never craved it yet (been vegan only a year or so now).

    Awesome that you are thinking of going vegan!

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    Quote Glory View Post
    ETA: Okay, I think this is coming off harsh, in light of your other posts. It's just... you're missing something. I feel like you're so close to getting it, but you don't, not yet. I'm not trying to be mean. Just trying to understand.
    No worries. I just don't like the common attitude I find. It feels no different than when somebody tries to push their religion on you or what their model of success is. I think there would be a lot more people fighting the good fight without it. That's all. I get it, trust me I do and I'm getting there with my actions.

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    Jamison, awesome to hear that you want to go vegan. Wish you all the best for it.To me, an interesting aspect of it was about the clarity of it - no more discussions, considerations, simply not using any animal products. Life can be so wonderfully simple. I can simply explain to people "sorry, I do not consume animal products" when they try to argue with me about "humane killing" or similar.

    Do not get me wrong, now I understand your comments about "cruelty-free milk" - if you have a friend with a rescue cow. Nevertheless, as much as I understand it, I personally would rather consume it, not any more than the much discussed " breast milk ice cream" (was a discussion here and elsewhere - if the thought of lactating women who use their surplus breast milk to produce cheese, icecream and other things for human, guilt-free consumption appalls you, how come that using the milk of another species does not?)

    Being vegan is just so much easier, to me.

    Best regards, Andy

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    Quote Andy_T View Post
    Jamison, awesome to hear that you want to go vegan. Wish you all the best for it.To me, an interesting aspect of it was about the clarity of it - no more discussions, considerations, simply not using any animal products. Life can be so wonderfully simple. I can simply explain to people "sorry, I do not consume animal products" when they try to argue with me about "humane killing" or similar.

    Do not get me wrong, now I understand your comments about "cruelty-free milk" - if you have a friend with a rescue cow. Nevertheless, as much as I understand it, I personally would rather consume it, not any more than the much discussed " breast milk ice cream" (was a discussion here and elsewhere - if the thought of lactating women who use their surplus breast milk to produce cheese, icecream and other things for human, guilt-free consumption appalls you, how come that using the milk of another species does not?)

    Being vegan is just so much easier, to me.

    Best regards, Andy
    Yes! Andy, perfectly stated! What I wanted to say! Thank you!

    Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

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    Andy, I completely understand that. For a long time, I had a discussion with a friend about the no meat vs. local grass fed meat on and off. Although I did agree with her on a lot of oints and personally, her choices didn't really offend me too much, it was just easier for me to abstain from meat completely. She would get on her local beef high ground, then be at the bar eating beef nachos. I'm pretty close already to vegan.

  46. #96
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    The thing is with vegetarianism you can't assume it is from an ethical viewpoint. Vegetarianism can stem from so many basis for example religious or diet. You can be a vegetarian and not give a crap about animals. I have met some people before that were vegetarians only for the sake of loosing a few pounds, they didn't care about animals or the earth what so ever...lot's actually had no idea what happens to hens and dairy cows or even beef cattle. Lot's of people who do it for religious reason may not have an ethical view point on vegetarianism either. I guy I used to work with was born a vegetarian, but he is training to be a vivisector for animal science. I have told a couple of religious vegetarians (hindus) how cows suffer for the milk they produce and they don't care. They are only vegetarian because that's just how they grew up, it's only habit. I am only stating this because you can be a vegetarian and not give a crap about what happens to the animals or this earth. Lot's of vegetarians have the ignorance of a meat eater. I would know because I was one of them. I was only a vegetarian because I got dared. I had no clue what happened to the animals and never thought about it. I stayed in the same ignorant box meat eaters were in.
    Anyways, besides the point, how I feel about vegetarians...I guess it depends on who the vegetarians are. If it's a vegetarian I know who is training in vivisection then I don't have a relatively peaceful energy towards him, or the vegetarian who told me once that he will crucify all gays because they are indifferent to him. You can be a vegetarian and still be as ignorant as some meat eaters, so it really depends on the person. I know a meat eater who straight out says that she doesn't want to know about the suffering that animals go through for her meal because that means she would probably have to become a vegetarian and she doesn't want to be a vegetarian. I have more respect for her personally that the vegetarian vivisector to be because she knows they don't come from pastures, but it's that extra little push of actually seeing the suffering that is stopping her. So it really all just depends on the person. In this day and age, vegetarian doesn't mean much anymore for the ethical stance of animals, in my own experience. I actually came across a good article today about why drinking animal milk isn't vegetarian at all. It was very interesting. This post made me think about it. It talks mainly about the vegetarians in India but it can apply to vegetarians here as well, pleas take a look, it was a good read!
    http://veganismisthefuture.com/animalmilknotveg/
    I said 'Somebody should do something about that.' Then I realized I am somebody.

  47. #97

    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    I had signed up for a human anatomy and physiology course for the summer that I needed in order to get into a certain class in the Fall at college. I didnt realize until the instructor emailed us all ahead of time that the lab component involved dissecting a cow eye and sheep brain. I contacted her and explained that I am vegan and this is against my beliefs, and I asked if there were projects I could do in place. She refused to budge, and claimed that she was a vegetarian herself so she did understand my predicament, but she wants all her students to experience seeing the muscles etc of real tissue. At least she was honest that the materials came from factory farms but she also tried to justify it by saying that they were not being used in vain (which I disagree with). fortuntely for me I was able to drop her class and get into another class where the instructor used online simulations and not animals.
    I find vegetarianism confusing because there is such a wide range of beliefs in what is acceptable. There are strict vegetarians that are actually vegans but for whatever reason call themselves vegetarians, and then there are those that consume dairy, eggs, and wear leather and suede etc. I'm afraid the same thing is going to happen with the term "vegan" which is a whole other discussion.

  48. #98
    Draíochta Blueberries's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Robinwomb
    She refused to budge, and claimed that she was a vegetarian herself so she did understand my predicament, but she wants all her students to experience seeing the muscles etc of real tissue..
    Wow, a vegetarian vivisector, how bizzare! You couldn't make that up! Her obsession with 'real' body parts is ridiculous and a bit macabre, its the 21st century, we can pretty much simulate anything with computers and models.
    Houmous atá ann!

  49. #99
    Vegan Princess BellaTanie's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you view vegetarians?

    Quote Firestorm View Post
    I no longer consider Vegetarians to be prancing lightweights, rather as Vegans in the making. I also have a bit more humility about being Vegan and consider it my role to help Vegetarians to become Vegan (if this is what they want).
    This is how I look at Vegetarians also (:
    Tanya

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