What's wrong with using dairy products?

[fiamma]

Hi Spartacus and welcome to the forum.
Obviously it is easier to be vegan in some places than in others. Being aware of the health risks associated with the consumption of milk, by infants and adults alike, I would choose not to expose my child to that risk. Unfortunately there are a lot of humans on the planet, and feeding us all, by whatever methods, unfortunately does involve the destruction of habitats, as the population of the planet continues to expand.

As far as infant formula is concerned, I see the use of soy formula as more ethical and less damaging to my child's health than feeding him or her cow's milk. Indeed the WHO has estimated that as much as 75% of the world's population may be intolerant to cow's milk. It does make sense, since it is meant for baby cows, not for baby humans.



If we continue to rear and use livestock for our own purposes, this involves a greater use of resources than would the adoption of a plant-based diet.

You constantly mention soy; many vegans are actually allergic to it and do not consume it as part of a plant-based it. It is not essential! I consume very little soy, if at all.

Vegans are against the use of animals on ethical grounds; ultimately each and every one of us makes our own decisions based on our own conscience.

[RubyDuby]

If my mother was lactating and I needed milk for my baby -- sure no problem. It's called wet-nursing and is as old humankind..

I said 'as an adult'.

It would not make sense to keep dogs for milk. There is no cost benefit as dogs eat meat. Goats browse on all sorts of plants. Cows graze grass. Cows and goats convert abundant, locally native, natural plant matter into protein needed for developing babies.

My dogs don't eat meat.

[fiamma]

Cows and goats convert abundant, locally native, natural plant matter into protein needed for developing babies.

The fact that animal protein is "needed" for developing babies is a fallacy, disproved by numerous studies and generations of healthy vegan children and adults. Moreover, it has been linked to a whole host of diseases, including most types of cancer.

[Back-Space]

Type 1 diabetes along with several other autoimmune diseases, heart disease...

[spartacus]

Type 1 diabetes along with several other autoimmune diseases, heart disease...

Being from Alberta -- you might find the article I linked to about the diets of the American Indians of the plains of interest.

Among the Lakota and other tribes, where Diabetes has had a horrible impact on the tribe, traditional healers have reversed it by prescribing a Traditional Diet rich on grass-fed bison and other wild game. Interestingly, Diabetes did not occur among the tribes until they were forcibly put on reservations and forced to eat domestic grains and vegetables.

[Andy_T]

Interestingly, Diabetes did not occur among the tribes until they were forcibly put on reservations and forced to eat domestic grains and vegetables.

... and drink milk, I presume?
(There are a lot of studies that suggest a causal relationship between drinking milk as a kid and the occurrence of diabetes)

Best regards,
Andy

[spartacus]

... and drink milk, I presume?
(There are a lot of studies that suggest a causal relationship between drinking milk as a kid and the occurrence of diabetes)

Best regards,
Andy

Actually drinking milk on reservations was not very common until very recently when the federal government instituted free milk for impoverished children at school.

There just aren't a lot of dairy operations between the Mississippi and the Rocky mountains. The grasslands are not suited for dairy.

The advice I have heard all my life from my grandmother to my doctor is "everything in moderation" when it comes to food. If you have any links to studies about the risks of milk consumption, I'd like to see it. The studies I mean...not articles alluding to studies.

Which brings me to another question:

There are a number of studies that show the health benefits from consuming live cultures of healthful bacteria like what one finds in yogurt. I have personally benefited from "pro-biotics" especially after coming off an antibiotic following a serious infection.

How do vegans get the benefits of these bacteria without causing harm to an animal?

[Back-Space]

Being from Alberta -- you might find the article I linked to about the diets of the American Indians of the plains of interest.

Among the Lakota and other tribes, where Diabetes has had a horrible impact on the tribe, traditional healers have reversed it by prescribing a Traditional Diet rich on grass-fed bison and other wild game. Interestingly, Diabetes did not occur among the tribes until they were forcibly put on reservations and forced to eat domestic grains and vegetables.

A traditional diet rich on grass-fed bison and other wild game? I wouldn't consider dying from heart disease or cancer to be a cure for diabetes. Simply a misunderstanding that renders you dead before diabetes would have... And why would living in Alberta make me any less of a vegan? Sorry, I have no interest in reading that article or your pro-omnivorous bull shit.

[fiamma]

There are a number of studies that show the health benefits from consuming live cultures of healthful bacteria like what one finds in yogurt. I have personally benefited from "pro-biotics" especially after coming off an antibiotic following a serious infection.

How do vegans get the benefits of these bacteria without causing harm to an animal?

Since following a vegan diet, I've never had the need for antibiotics. There are enzymes available on the market to aid in the production of healthful intestinal flora which are not animal derived.

And I'm sorry but none of the information I've read correlates a diet rich in grains and vegetables with the onset of diabetes. You may want to look to animal protein for that one.

[vorpal]

Which brings me to another question:

There are a number of studies that show the health benefits from consuming live cultures of healthful bacteria like what one finds in yogurt. I have personally benefited from "pro-biotics" especially after coming off an antibiotic following a serious infection.

How do vegans get the benefits of these bacteria without causing harm to an animal?

There are plenty of vegan probiotics on the market if you search for them. I am not your google monkey.

[vorpal]

The advice I have heard all my life from my grandmother to my doctor is "everything in moderation" when it comes to food. If you have any links to studies about the risks of milk consumption, I'd like to see it. The studies I mean...not articles alluding to studies.

Voskuil DW, Vrieling A, van’t Veer LJ, Kampman E, Rookus MA. The insulin-like growth factor system in cancer prevention: potential of dietary intervention strategies. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2005;14:195-203.

Cadogan J, Eastell R, Jones N, Barker ME. Milk intake and bone mineral acquisition in adolescent girls: randomised, controlled intervention trial. BMJ. 1997;315:1255-60.

Cohen P. Serum insulin-like growth factor-I levels and prostate cancer risk—interpreting the evidence. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1998;90:876-9.

Chan JM, Stampfer MJ, Giovannucci E, et al. Plasma insulin-like growth factor-1 and prostate cancer risk: a prospective study. Science. 1998;279:563-5.

Chan JM, Stampfer MJ, Ma J, Gann PH, Gaziano JM, Giovannucci E. Dairy products, calcium, and prostate cancer risk in the Physicians' Health Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001;74:549-54.

Tseng M, Breslow RA, Graubard BI, Ziegler RG. Dairy, calcium and vitamin D intakes and prostate cancer risk in the National Health and Nutrition Examination Epidemiologic Follow-up Study cohort. Am J Clin Nutr. 2005;81:1147-54.

Cramer DW, Greenberg ER, Titus-Ernstoff L, et al. A case-control study of galactose consumption and metabolism in relation to ovarian cancer. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2000;9:95-101.

Larsson SC, Bergkvist L, Wolk A. Milk and lactose intakes and ovarian cancer risk in the Swedish Mammography Cohort. Am J Clin Nutr. 2004;80:1353-7.

Kushi LH, Mink PJ, Folsom AR, et al. Prospective study of diet and ovarian cancer. Am J Epidemiol. 1999;149:21-31.

Saukkonen T, Virtanen SM, Karppinen M, et al. Significance of cow’s milk protein antibodies as risk factor for childhood IDDM: interaction with dietary cow’s milk intake and HLA-DQB1 genotype. Childhood Dibetes in Finland Study Group. Dibetologia. 1998;41:72-8.

Paronen J, Bjorksten B, Hattevig G, Akerblom HK, Vaarala O. Effect of maternal diet during lactation on development of bovine insulin-binding antibodies in children at risk for allergy. J Allergy Clin Immunol. 2000;106:302-306.

Howell MA. Factor analysis of international cancer mortality data and per capita food consumption. Br J Cancer 1974;29:328-36.

Armstrong B, Doll R. Environmental factors and cancer incidence and mortality in different countries, with special reference to dietary practices. Int J Cancer 1975;15: 617-31.

Rose DP, Boyar AP, Wynder EL. International comparisons of mortality rates for cancer of the breast, ovary, prostate, and colon, and per capita food consumption. Cancer 1986;58:2363-71.

Hebert JR, Hurley TG, Olendzki BC, Teas J, Ma Y, Hampl JS. Nutritional and socioeconomic factors in relation to prostate cancer mortality: a cross national study. J Natl Cancer Inst 1998;90(21):1637-47.

Snowdon DA, Phillips RL, Choi W. Diet, obesity, and risk of fatal prostate cancer. Am J Epidemiology 1984;120:244-50.

LeMarchand L, Kolonel LN, Wilkens LR, Myers BC, Hirohata T. Animal fat consumption and prostate cancer: a prospective study in Hawaii. Epidemiology 1994;5:276-82.


Schuurman AG, van den Brandt PA, Dorant E, Goldbohm RA. Animal products, calcium and protein and prostate cancer risk in the Netherlands Cohort Study. Br J Cancer 1999;80:1107-1113.

Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Wolk A, Ascherio A, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Willett WC. Calcium and fructose intake in relation to risk of prostate cancer. Cancer Res 1998a;58:442-7.

Ross RK, Henderson BE. Do diet and androgens alter prostate cancer risk via a common etiologic pathway? J Natl Cancer Inst 1994:86:252-4.


Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Colditz GA, Stampfer MJ, Ascherio A, Chute CC, Willett WC. A prospective study of dietary fat and risk of prostate cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst 1993;85:1571-9.

[Minka]

@Korn (and I suppse whoever else cares as well)


I think the point that Spartucus was tryin to make was - 'If I'm keeping goats as pets (so they are babied, not killed later on, etc), what would be wrong with milking them?'
He wasn't asking whether we Need the milk, but rather, "If I'm not harming the goat (which he wouldn't be), what would be wrong with taking some milk"?




Also, I don't think it's necessary to be quite so mean to the him. He is being very pleasant and respectful (towards the people of the forum) in his replies, so I think we should treat him the same.




And Wooow vorpal, I'm very impressed at the research you did there. *nod*




(P.s. - I'm not sure if responding to a thread from Feb counts as reviving a dead topic or not (especially since active topics in the "Non-Vegan" section aren't abundant), but if it is.. I'm sorry ^^;..)

[Korn]

He wasn't asking whether we Need the milk, but rather, "If I'm not harming the goat (which he wouldn't be), what would be wrong with taking some milk"?

Hi Minka!

I know, and he received replies to both this^^^ and his other questions in several threads.


He asked/repeated a few questions - several times, in multiple threads, including questions about what's wrong with killing animals if they are "treated respectfully" etc., and didn't follow up on responses with links to threads where the topics he brought up were discussed in detail .

We welcome people who want an actual discussion with vegans, but if they come here to repeat what I consider pseudo-arguments for using animal products - without actually taking part in the discussion, their accounts will be deactivated. It's not about how he treated me/us, but about the idea that it's OK to kill animals if one treat them 'respectfully' and take their milk. Some of these repeated questions were removed, so what you see in this thread is only part of his eager repetition of a message essentially saying that we could treat animals as our slaves and kill them if we 'respected' them.

I don't think anyone was mean to him, but I do think it's mean to kill an innocent, living being and at the same time that you 'respect' them'. And I can't see how humans possible can declare that they have the right to take other animals' milk and give to their own babies (or that there are health reasons to do so).

I'm not sure if responding to a thread from Feb counts as reviving a dead topic

I, for one, can't see anything wrong with reviving old thread - and as long as humans kill animals/treat them as their slaves, these topics won't be too old...

[Minka]

He asked/repeated a few questions - several times, in multiple threads, including questions about what's wrong with killing animals if they are "treated respectfully" etc., and didn't follow up on responses with links to threads where the topics he brought up were discussed in detail .

Ah... If i had known, I wouldn't have stood up for him...

I, for one, can't see anything wrong with reviving old thread - and as long as humans kill animals/treat them as their slaves, these topics won't be too old...

So even if I go way back to 2009 or 2007 nobody will get upset?
I just know most forums have a rule against reviving threads which are over _____ months old, a year old, etc.

[Korn]

Hi again...

Sure - many forum threads are 'timeless' anyway, so I can't see what should be wrong with following up on a post from eg. 2004. We (and many other forums) actually encourage people to search for existing threads before tarting new ones, and only close threads (+ suggest people to start new ones) if they get very long. And - bringng up what you did in this thread is OK too; because there may be others out there as well who don't know the story behind why we actually deactivated this member's account.

[Korn]

Link: 10 dairy facts the industry doesn't want you to

An excerpt:

1. 21,000,000 dairy calves are slaughtered for veal or cheap beef every year globally. (1)

2. Like all mammals, cows must give birth in order to make milk. Like human mothers, they carry their babies for nine months, then begin to lactate for the sole purpose of nourishing their young.
3. Due to extensive genetic manipulation, today’s dairy cows produce up to 12 times more milk than they would naturally produce to feed a calf. (2)
Photo: Twyla Francois

4. Even so, virtually all dairy calves are stolen from their mothers within hours of birth in order to maximize profit. 97% of newborn dairy calves are forcibly removed from their mothers within the first 12 hours. (3) The rest are removed in a matter of days. On so-called humane dairy farms, cows are often taken within the first hour of birth as separation of mother and calf is considered less stressful when they have not been allowed to bond (see video clip below).

5. To keep them lactating at maximum yields, cows are artificially and forcibly inseminated year after year. The constant cycle of forced pregnancy and birth creates a huge surplus of calves.

- See more at: http://freefromharm.org/dairyfacts/#....GP8E09a0.dpuf

[jaimieag]

How very, very horrible....