What's wrong with using dairy products?

[Suzulan]

Why nobody told people about www.notmilk.com?
How about little dirty secret of dairy farms where many newborn male calves are thrown in dead pile alive and starve to death or freeze to death?

[tails4wagging]

I have a friend who drinks 4 pints of the stuff a week!!!!!.

And she has a very strong family link to breast cancer, her gran died from it as well as her mum and sister. I have told her about the possible link from dairy milk to cancer, but she still drinks the stuff. I have given her soya milk to try, but she doesnt like it!.

[tails4wagging]

Does anyone know of a weblink about the possible connection between milk consumption and breast/testicular cancer??. Perhaps if I show her she may listen.

[Korn]

Try this...: http://www.google.com/search?num=30&...er&btnG=Search

[Yoggy]

I hate to admit it, but even though I am disgusted with the dairy industry, I actually like the taste of milk. But I still can't consider drinking it without gagging, and I will never drink another glass. I'm reminded of when I was omni living in Thailand, and my favourite Thai food was Nam Tok (spicy pork and vegetables in a salty sauce). I loved the sauce. It wasn't until much later that I found out that the "sauce" was actually pig blood! I was grossed out, and vowed never to eat Nam Tok again, because even though I liked the taste, I wouldn't be able to stomach it knowing where it came from. And the same goes for milk: knowing what I now know about milk and the dairy industry, I simply can't drink milk, regardless of whether or not I like the taste.

I'm happy to hear that many long-time vegans lose their "taste" for milk, and actually hate the stuff after trying it for the first time in a long time.

[Suzulan]

Yoggy, just knowing how newborn unwanted worthless calves are dumped in dead pile alive and freeze to death or starve to death is more than enough reason to boycott dairy products.
It is heart breaking experience to hear sad cry of mother cows who are desperately trying to find their babies without knowing that their babies are killed in most inhumane manner or end up in veal crate.
Little dirty secret of dairy farms sicken me more than anything else!
Yes, anybody who consuming dairy products are responsible for shocking cruelty of cows and their calves.
Robert Cohen had(I think he still has) article titled 'How to kill baby cow' on his www.notmilk.com
Dairy industry tell anything to people to get us to eat dairy products but we all know dairy products weaken our bones and cause of many diseases.
I love soy dream ice cream and all other soy products.

[Elis]

Uhm, sorry guys, but our milk here does come from very pretty Alpine farms, many organic or damn near, but this does not stop at least some cattle from suffering. Fact is that when they breed dairy cows and the calf is male - even in the alps - it will end up at the slaughter house sooner or later. All that time in a lovely pasture will not prevent this. A male dairy cow taking up pasture land is not very economical, you don't need many to breed a herd and - I hate to break it to you but - they have tractors in the alps too. So no, they don't need steers for plowing. And on the last point, we thankfully don't have much factory farming in the alpine region. The slaughter houses - however - are no more humane than anywhere else (not that I should be putting the words humane and slaughter house in the same sentence). Besides which, many animals are sold at auction and then transported to other countries to farms or slaughter houses. This includes those sweet ponies they have in villages or on small farms that host vacationers.

[Blueshark]

On a few occasions I have eaten pre-prepared food, which I found out later had some dairy products in it. It seems I have developed a lactose intolerence, and I get bloating and nausea after digesting dairy.

Is there anything I can take to relieve these symptoms?

(I suspect the food on the train today may have had some cheese in it)

[Korn]

Hello, I'm new to this board or forum, whichever you prefer. I am curious about veganism. I respect the lifestyle. It is not my chosen lifestyle and I do not criticize those who are vegan. I just have some things I need to understand. I understand, although I would find it difficult to adapt to this lifestyle, that vegans don't use any animal products. I just don't see anything wrong with having a grilled cheese sandwich once in awhile or having some scrambled eggs or even drinking a glass of milk. If someone could explain this to me I would really appreciate the info.
thank you.

Hi!
We have a few thousand posts about these topics already - plaese look around, and I'm sure you'll understand more about why vegans are vegans...

You may want to check out these threads:
Vegans and eggs
Arguments against dairy products

[Maisiepaisie]

Hi Jeff, I think the reason you asked whats wrong with cheese, eggs, milk etc is because you're unaware of the suffering caused in order to have these products. Like Korn said have a look round the forum and you will find answers. This is also a good link http://www.viva.org.uk/goingvegan/index.html

[Glen]

Hey there Jeff.

Basically, Vegans don't eat any animal products for moral reasons. Every single part of the animal products industry represents extreme suffering to the animals and a wastefullness and overconsumption that is unprecedented. Let me expand on the moral reasons behind it all:

Meat
This is fairly obvious. When we eat meat, we are paying for somebody to kill an animal, purely for the satisfaction of our tastebuds. We do not need meat to live healthy lives, this has been well documented; some studies show that Vegitarians actually live longer. If we can live without meat, why take an animals life? In addition, the conditions on modern intensive (factory) farms are horrendous. Search the internet for factory farming and you will easily see why Vegans do not wish to play a part in animals' suffering.

Milk/Cheese/Dairy
When dairy cows are 'spent', i.e. no longer of use for producing milk, they are sent to slaughter to be used as meat. This meat represents a substantial percentage of all beef. Furthermore, the male cows which are born are of no use to dairy farmers, and are sold cheaply to be used as meat, or exported in terrible conditions to be used for Veal in foreign countries where the laws permit tremendous animal suffering. Vegans do not use dairy products because they are inexplicably linked to the meat industry.

Baby calves are taken from their mother after only a few days, it would be weeks in the wild. This causes both distress. The dairy cows are then kept in lactation constantly and are fed hormones and anti-biotics to promote unnaturally high levels of milk. This over-milking causes painful udder infections and crippling lameness to a large proportion of dairy cows.

On a health note; why would a human drink milk that is designed to nourish a baby cow? Many studies now implicate dairy products as a cause of juvenile-onset diabetes, osteoperosis and obesity. Humans are the only species that drink another species milk. It is unnatural and illogical.

Eggs
The conditions that egg-laying hens are kept in are quite possibly the most disturbing of any animal used for human produce. Hundreds, even thousands of hens are crammed into windowless sheds in tiny cages. Often, hens only have an area about the size of an A4 piece of paper to live. For their whole lives they will be deprived of their natural instincts and kept in a constant state of laying by shock-starvation, anti-biotics and simulated winter. The hens are sent to slaughter when they become unprofitable.

Again, feel free to look up the health issues with eggs. We are the only species that conduct this strange behaviour, and we have to question why we eat chicken periods as a 'nutritious' food.


That was a long post and my hands are aching, but I hope it has given you some insight as to why Vegans make the choice they do. It is essentially a boycott; eating animals or using animal 'products' is morally wrong, on a number of levels (read up on Peter Singer, Thomas Regan etc.), and unnecessary, so we dont do it.

Glen x

[saucyvegan]

And just remember Jeff, when u eat a chickens egg, its a chickens period!!
Also, by law, dairy products allow blood cells and animal puss into the food. YUK!!

Dont think we all eat just fruit and veg. We can eat almost everything that you do, just with replaced animal puss products. Yesterday, I had roast "chicken" (u need to go to specialised places to get this wonderful product but I buy it in bulk so its no problem for me), followed by apple and rhubarb pie with ice cream. Check out the Swedish Glaze ice cream most supermarkets do now if you just want to see what its like.

[UrbanVegan]

What do you all think about milk? I know that you are all vegans, but do you really think milk is bad for you?

My view is that cow's milk is for baby cows I figure it has no business in my body.

[veggiegirl3]

My friend told me last night that calcium fortification in food/beverages was a marketing gimick, and it can't be absorbed well unless it is naturally in the food (like milk). I told him I get enough calcium from soy milk, tofu, brocoli, ect, but he said since it has been added to the fortified foods, it is not absorbed and brocoli only has a small amount. I'm so bad at debating with him; he is very intelligent and has a lot of facts to back himself up. He also told me that he met a vegetarian who was deficient in PROTEIN, which I said is very rare. He said humans are meant to get protein from both plant and animal sources, and plant sources are missing amino acids. I told him that throughout the day, eating a variety of foods gives you all of the nutrients you need, but he said that's not true...How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

[UrbanVegan]

How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

Find some statistics about the state of health of vegans verses non-vegans. Things like a decrease in diseases, increase in life span, things like that. Look for a long term study on vegans.

[Roxy]

My friend told me last night that calcium fortification in food/beverages was a marketing gimick, and it can't be absorbed well unless it is naturally in the food (like milk). I told him I get enough calcium from soy milk, tofu, brocoli, ect, but he said since it has been added to the fortified foods, it is not absorbed and brocoli only has a small amount. I'm so bad at debating with him; he is very intelligent and has a lot of facts to back himself up. He also told me that he met a vegetarian who was deficient in PROTEIN, which I said is very rare. He said humans are meant to get protein from both plant and animal sources, and plant sources are missing amino acids. I told him that throughout the day, eating a variety of foods gives you all of the nutrients you need, but he said that's not true...How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

With regards to the calcium thing......

I have been closely watching the foods and nutrients I consume and have been entering everything I eat and drink, into fitday each day.

One thing I have noticed through doing this, is that I'm finding it difficult to meet my RDA for calcium. I am thinking seriously about taking a calcium supplement now.

I have heard that from as early as age 30, women's bones can start losing their bone density, leading to osteoperosis later in life. I very much want to avoid this happening.

[DianeVegan]

Oh boy, the great calcium and protein debate.

First of all, we don't appear to know all that much about calcium considering that we eat so much of it (in all forms) in some countries and yet have the highest rates of osteoporosis in those same nations. As far as how digestible calcium salts are, I think there is some debate still out there but here is my understanding:

Calcium citrate is very absorbable and contains 210 mg Ca per 1 gm of salt
Calcium lactate is somewhat absorbable and contains 130 mg per gm of salt
Calcium carbonate is only moderately absorbable at 400 mg per gm of salt

But that's not the whole story since absorption and retention is determined mostly by what we eat with our calcium. Ca is a big acid buffer in the bloodstream and will either (1) not be absorbed or (2) be drawn from the bones when the blood becomes acidified. Meat causes acidity, dairy and grains cause moderated acidity and vegetables/fruits cause alkalinity.

Calcium is necessary for sodium excretion (about 25 mg for every 1 gm of sodium excreted by the kidneys).

Phosphoric acids in soft drinks decrease calcium absorption.

All protein is neutralized by calcium, especially sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine) which are more concentrated in animal proteins. So high protein diets will require higher calcium intakes.

And this is just what we know so far. Was anyone having this discussion 80 years ago? Not at all. And 80 years from now there will be more questions than answers al well.

There is no way to determine if a person is getting enough calcium in there diet because blood tests are useless since your blood will always try to maintain a balanced pH and calcium level. I think calcium intake is too simplified and doesn't answer all the questions. Of course, most of us want easy answers and many people/organizations are trying to give them to us.

From what I know, in order to maintain a good calcium balance: 1) Don't eat a high protein diet (not even high plant protein), 2) Avoid high levels of sodium, so don't eat processed foods, 3) Avoid soft drinks, 4) Do weight bearing exercise (gravity and lifting weight has been proven to affect bone density). Also, make sure you are getting Vit D supplements or sunshine and Magnesium - both necessary for maximum calcium assimilation.

If you are to take a supplement, be aware that high calcium intake may decrease Vit D absorption. Don't take with foods containing oxalic acid (spinach, parsley, rhubarb, some beans) and phytic acid (bran and whole cereals) because they will form insoluble compounds with the calcium, keeping it from being absorbed.



Veggiegirl3,

You can tell your friend that his information is right and wrong. Calcium supplementation is certainly as much of a marketing ploy as the "Got Milk?" campaign. And the type of calcium salt added is important. However, dairy products contain phosphorus (just like soft drinks) which binds calcium into a form that is poorly absorbed by the intestines. So, if you are drinking milk for calcium then you are excreting most of it via your urine.

And about those amino acids - our bodies do not differentiate between plant and animal protein because an amino acid is an amino acid in the blood stream. Calling an animal protein a "complete" protein is like calling a burger and fries a "complete" meal - sure, you get enough calories but you get too much of the wrong kind of calories. The biggest problems we know of now with animal protein: 1) They are too concentrated in protein, leading to calcium loss from the diet or bones, 2) They contain too much sulfur, which in addition to acidifying the urine also become metabolized to homocysteine (which is currently connected to increased risk for heart disease).

If he really want to debate amino acids with you then he can check out the "Essential Amino Acid suggested pattern of requirements for humans past infancy" put together by the WHO, FAO and UNU. This breaks down the amounts of amino acids per gram of protein needed by the human body. It would be challenging (to say the least) to try and figure out the precise recommended amounts of aa per day and which foods to eat in order to get them. But it doesn't matter because the most glaring truth is that meat has too much methionine and cysteine which definitely leads to chronic disease in meat-eating societies.

(most of my info came from the "PDR for Herbal Medicines" section on supplements and "Becoming Vegan")


Also, Veggiegirl3, you could read "The China Study," Becoming Vegan" and "The Vegan Diet as Chronic Disease Prevention." Then you could debate with your friend, if you want to.

[Xenius13]

Years ago when I was taking a class on nutrition I did a paper on soy products. I found out several important facts. First, soybeans contain all of the essential amino acids. They have a complete protein just like meat and animal products. Second, consuming soy protein has been shown to reverse osteoporosis (some still claim this is impossible). Third, eating soy products can also remove cholesterol buildup from the cardiovascular system.

Edit: Most importantly, I found that none of the studies at the time that claimed to show evidence of health problems caused by soy consumption were scientifically sound.

[Roxy]

Diane,

Thank you so much for that valuable information!!

I think maybe I need to look into this more, before I decide to start taking a supplement.

[DianeVegan]

You are welcome, Roxy.

If you do take a supplement, my understanding is that you can only absorb about 500 mg at a time, so larger amounts are not worth taking. (It just continues to get complicated, doesn't it?)

[sheri beri]

Don't you Love those ads, the milk mustache ones , celebertys touting the modern marvels of Milk....How about the latest commercials "make sure to get a few glasses of low fat milk each day to stay fit.......How about the calcium claims???wow there are alot of them......
Interestingly these commercials that 'claim' the calcium from milk will seriously cut the risk of ostepphorsis ....Except the FDA says there is no such evidence hmmm

Anyone seen the ads that milk will lower high blood pressure???What an oxymoron there , animal that causes High Blood pressure , now lowers blood pressure???hmmmm
( I guess they think we'll belive anything)



Calcium from milk makes strong bones in women?????? Not according to the 12 years nurses study it seems that women who drank two glasses of milk actually had a risk of 1.45 times higher that those that didn't...How can this be?????

[Korn]

Here's an article from veg.ca about cow's milk...

[Awareness]

I don't think we should steal milk from cow's when it was produced for their children. Also milk is contaminated with cow's blood, pus, as well as other chemicals and hormones. I couldn't bring myself to drink it, even if I wanted to!

[philfox]

why cow's milk? has anyone ever wondered? i know people are proclaiming the benefits of goat's milk,( i never hear the end of goats milk up here becasue we live near a massive goats milk factory) but why cows? why not horse milk? or what about dog's milk? why not human breast milk? i find it all odd sometimes

[Tigerlily]

I agree, Phil. And do you know what's even more weird? Dairy eaters go "eeew" at the thought of pig's milk or cat's milk. Why?

[eclectic_one]

Just this weekend I drove by this horrible farm where dairy cows are kept...I used to drive by it often and the poor cows are kept in horrible conditions: they are "outside," but under a open metal-roofed structure that sits over most of a small muddy field. This time as I went by, I felt the normal disgust, then I saw a new structure: a small plastic-roofed open structure (with some sort of fence-like material surrounding it) with calves in it...I'm still depressed by the sight

[jamey]

I saw in the newspaper not so long ago that camel milk will be the next 'big thing' sweeping the food industry. What!?

I too think that cow's milk is exactly as is implied, milk for cows. And not even fully-grown cows, just those in the first weeks of life: calves. It helps them gain hundreds of kilos in weight and muscle and is naturally optimized for their physique and biological features. Put that liquid into a human and it is like trying to morph a human into a cow. It can't be done. But what happens is a lot of disease and discomfort for the human as their body tries to eject this foreign substance.

It's sort of futile trying to convince other people, especially those close to you, that everything that the dairy, medical and what-not industries have been subliminally feeding them is total and utter BS. Even if it truly is BS, they are happy riding on their slogans and gimmicks called 'health advice'.

Got milk? Yes? Well, you got disease too!

[angelamc]

I think I'm going to put out an ad proclaiming the wonders of cat's milk and see what happens. People can be so dumb sometimes you never know what they'll believe.

[tomo359]

Just a quick question for vegans.
I understand not eating things or having anything to do with products where the animal has had to be killed such as meat, eggs, leather etc, but why do you not eat and drink things like milk and cheese? That doesn't harm any animals.
And do you wear woolen clothes?

[mogthecat]

Hi Tomo

Milk and cheese production in fact causes huge suffering and death for cows, goats etc. I'd suggest you have a read through the information on these pages of the Vegan society (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/) - follow the links on the right.

Vegans also do not wear wollen clothes.

Welcome!

[ellaminnowpea]

Other than the suffering of animals in milk and cheese production that mogthecat mentioned, it is proven that milk is NOT meant for human consumption. Milk is actually dangerous to consume (for humans) and is only meant for baby calves. Where do you think the milk would go if humans didn't take it? The baby calves!

Check out some of the threads on here for more detailed information (our moderator has very detailed threads with all sorts of good links and information!).

Also, vegans do not use anything from animals because it is wrong to forcefully take something from an animal. It is not ours to use! Wool is taken from sheep who often suffer after or during the time wool is taken from their bodies (summer heat/ sunburns, winter cold, skin infections, leg or muscle injuries, etc).

[bryzee86]

Female mammals produce milk for their young. To take that milk, you deprive the young. So what happens to the young? Death, for the purposes of economy

That is why vegans do not drink milk, amongst other reasons.

[RubyDuby]

Female mammals produce milk for their young. To take that milk, you deprive the young. So what happens to the young?

veal.

(i know u know breezy )

[bryzee86]

don't make me start on you, rub-a-dub-dub.

But yes, I know. That's what I meant by death. Not only are their mothers crippled, distended and diseased, but the lucky male calves get taken off, tied to a crate and live in their own filth for a few short months 'til they're exported and killed. The females will probably be forced to live like their mothers as well - forcibly impregnated against their will and then refused the bond with the product of these pregnancies. Only to become distended and diseased too.

All of this until their bodies are pushed beyond their means (having had to produce more calves for their milk than they would have chosen to naturally) and are slaughtered for cheap pet and burger meat.

[RubyDuby]

"but it tastes so good"

[bryzee86]

Tastes like pus to me.

[journey]

Tomo, I think many folks don't realize the death and suffering that are caused by eating dairy and egg products, and wearing wool, silk, down, leather, etc. People aren't really aware of it because those industries work very hard to suppress that info and keep us all thinking those animals are happy and healthy and happy to give their lives for us.

The boy calves and chicks die horrendous deaths (not needed for milk and egg industries, so they're discarded in really bad ways) and the adult females left live very short lives of suffering. Once their production drops, at less than 1/3 natural life span, they're slaughtered.

Silkworms are boiled alive in their coccoons (cheaper that way), and sheep and geese are slaughtered at an extremely young age too (which is what a large percentage of your wool and down comes from).

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be so preachy, but I honestly didn't realize all this either at one point, and said the same as you - I thought no animals were getting hurt for these products. Once I found out, the only logical thing I could do was stop contributing to this. Hope this helps.

[bryzee86]

and sheep are slaughtered at an extremely young age too

Not to mention mulesing

[gogs67]

Hi Tomo

Milk and cheese production in fact causes huge suffering and death for cows, goats etc. I'd suggest you have a read through the information on these pages of the Vegan society (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/animals/exploitation/) - follow the links on the right.

Vegans also do not wear wollen clothes.

Welcome!

I had a mate that got a jersey spun out of all the hair he collected everytime he brushed his dogs, there's a woman in Germany that you send the hair to and yer measurements and she spins it, knits it and sends back the finished article! Odd but, as i could see no animal suffering involved, nothing really questionable about it ethically in my mind!

[bryzee86]

Could you send your own hair?

[ellaminnowpea]

"oh your jacket's so nice!"
"...yeah its my own hair!!"

cant see that happening, its kinda creepy. but i suppose its possible!

[bryzee86]

"oh your jacket's so nice!"
"...yeah its my own hair!!"

cant see that happening, its kinda creepy. but i suppose its possible!

It saves waste!

[gogs67]

Could you send your own hair?

Think you'd need more than one persons hair to get enough for a jersey, lol!

[bryzee86]

Oh I know that, but I was thinking that I could save up all my hair tilI have a sack's worth and make a jumper

[pavotrouge]

you could always get some fancy underwear done

[bryzee86]

That would be so itchy

[RubyDuby]

i love that idea!

[bryzee86]

Hairy knickers?

ETA: I never thought I'd ever use the phrase "Hairy knickers" on a public* forum...

*nearly left out the "L" then...

[ellaminnowpea]

just make sure to use a lot of hair conditioner for the next few years and youll have nice, soft underwear for those special occassions.

[treehugga]

I thought we already had natural versions of them!