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Thread: What's wrong with using dairy products?

  1. #151
    [LMNOP] ellaminnowpea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about foods

    but do you use conditioner on yours?
    I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning how to sail my ship. ~ Alcott

  2. #152
    treehugga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question about foods

    Actually, most of it is removed, It looks like a g string, so just a quick go with some natural soap

  3. #153
    pavotrouge
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    Default Re: Question about foods

    I know someone who does... and is not afraid to tell anyone, regardless of whether they want to hear of not.

  4. #154
    m0nm0n1023
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    Default Dairy: what is it that the dairy industry does to animals that's so bad?

    I'm well aware of the horrors of animal slaughter. It's disgusting and cruel. So I'm a vegeterian.
    I'm toying with the idea of becoming a vegan, but the problem is, I really don't know what it is that the dairy industry does to animals that's so bad. Do any of you all know?
    I feel like I need to have a good reason to give up cheese (it's the one thing in this world I truly love.) and all I can find is websites promoting dairy farms.

  5. #155
    ..but what would they do with all the cows?..

  6. #156
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    The dairy industry and the meat industry are just other sides of the same coin in my opinion. Cows that are too old to produce enough milk for the farmer are slaughtered, as are surplus calves that are born to keep cows lactating.

    http://www.vegansociety.com/animals/.../dairy_cow.php

    It's worth looking at some dairy industry web sites as well as you can be sure they aren't vegan propaganda This is one I think:

    http://future.aae.wisc.edu/data/week...tab=production

  7. #157
    flying plum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    ok, i have to ask this about the calves-to-keep-cows-lactating thing. because this is what i thought. but i am informed by my father that this is not the case, and once the cow has one calf, so long as they are continued to be milked they will continue to produce milk (like human wet nurses).

    still don't agree with it, but i like to get my facts straight otherwise my other arguments don't sound credible...

    amanda

  8. #158
    gorillagorilla Gorilla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    Quote m0nm0n1023 View Post
    I feel like I need to have a good reason to give up cheese (it's the one thing in this world I truly love.)
    i hope you're exaggerating there.

    Quote harpy View Post
    The dairy industry and the meat industry are just other sides of the same coin in my opinion.
    indeed. the dairy industry heavily support the veal industry, selling off unwanted calves for meat and feeding them with diluted milk products until they're slaughtered.

    animals are not meant to be enslaved for our food.
    'The word gorilla was derived from the Greek word Gorillai (a "tribe of hairy women")'

  9. #159
    flying plum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    edit - just read that vegan soc article in full. email to dad sending

    my dad and stepmum have really started to make some conscious decisions about where they buy their meat from recently, which although isn't ideal, is much better than nothing. perhaps i can get them to think about their milk as well...

    amanda

  10. #160
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    I think they may go on producing some milk, but not as much as if they produced another calf. Here's an article for dairy farmers that includes a yield curve (figure 1)

    http://promat.sitecheck.ca/images/up...PM_article.pdf

  11. #161
    Zero
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    I generally don't tend to get into one form of abuse and cruelty being worse than any other because to me, all are equal in suffering, but there is generally more cruelty in a glass of milk or block of cheese than there is in a steak.

    The dairy industry is directly responsible for a large amount of the mince beef that you see in you local supermarket, as soon as dairy cows are "spent" they are sent to the slaughter house, usually at around 4 to 7 years of age, cows can naturally live to around 20 years if they are not being used like an expendable part of a factory.

    Cows do not naturally produce milk all the time (just like a human mother it is produced for the baby) they have keep being made pregnant over and over and continuously milked, and their bodies become lame from the strain of over production.

    Then there is the veal issue mentioned above, the calves are either raised for veal, beef or more dairy cows.

    Your current perception is exactly what the dairy industry wants you to think, we've all seen the pictures and cartoons of the happy farmer living in harmony with the animals but this is simply not the reality, it's great that you've decided to ask the questions though, I am sure most of us here have asked the very same questions at some point or another.

    Basically, anytime we use animals for our own purposes, it enslaves them, removes their right to live on their own terms and is generally associated with some sort of abuse and slaughter as they are seen as nothing more than a product or a part of a machine.

    I hope the links in the above posts above provide some useful reading material

    If you have any other questions, people here will be more than happy to answer them.

  12. #162
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    In the UK not that many calves are raised for veal because local consumers don't like buying it, so the farmers either kill them at birth or send them abroad to be reared for veal.

    That's why you see these articles encouraging people to eat British veal on "humane" grounds - sorry to post yet another link but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/ja....animalwelfare The even more humane response of not consuming dairy produce doesn't seem to occur to them

  13. #163
    V for Veganica Sarabi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    You can always find a good reason when it comes to animal oppression. I was in the same boat as you not long ago. I had given up red meat because it was easy, then I gave up chicken because I realized immediately that I was eating chicken to replace red meat. Then I gave up fish, which I didn't eat anyway. Partly since I never ate it, I didn't see a reason to give it up, so I went online and looked up why eating fish is bad. I found a video about bycatch that convinced me immediately. Although I didn't go looking for the stuff about veganism, but merely stumbled upon it, it would've been the same thing had I bothered to look.

  14. #164
    Zero
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    Exclamation Re: Sooooo

    Quote harpy View Post
    That's why you see these articles encouraging people to eat British veal on "humane" grounds - sorry to post yet another link but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/20/ruralaffairs.animalwelfare The even more humane response of not consuming dairy produce doesn't seem to occur to them
    I just love the fact that people think that they can eat "guilt free" meat just because some silly group (who likely stand to profit from it) say "it's okay"

    People get too easily swayed into false realities rather than thinking for themselves, it's used like a shortcut to actually thinking!

  15. #165
    m0nm0n1023
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    Okay, Gorilla. So I might have been exaggerating a little bit on the cheese. lol

    But anyways, that's so terrible! Wow. I had no idea that the dairy and meat industries were so closely related. I just don't get how people can actually put an animal through that. it's horrible isn't it? and all for what? Human greed? Breaks my heart.
    Well, soy cheese is pretty yummy too, so I guess that's how I'll be getting my cheese fix from now on.

  16. #166
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    Good for you, m0n (I hope I may call you m0n? ).

  17. #167
    m0nm0n1023
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    Default Re: Sooooo

    of course you can! most people do.

  18. #168
    princesslolaluv
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    Default Why is milk considered wrong?

    Why is milk considered bad because if you do not milk a cow it is very painful for them.

    Thanks just been very curious about this.

  19. #169

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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Take a look at this:

    http://challengeoppression.com/2010/...yours-to-take/

    It should give you some starters.

    And yes, it is painful for them, as cows nowadays have cronically enlarged udders to give about 10 times as much milk as they would in nature.

    Best regards,
    Andy

  20. #170
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    It's painfull for a lactating woman (I have been told?) not to be milked too.

    I guess one answer is simply this; If it is not right to connect a woman to a milking machine for life than why it is right to do that to a cow?

    The other thing is that the 'drying up' is a gradual process as a child/calf slowly takes less and less milk from it's mother as it moves on to solid food.

    The luxury of being allowed that natural less painfull process is one that the dairy industry denies to cows.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  21. #171
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post

    I guess one answer is simply this; If it is not right to connect a woman to a milking machine for life than why it is right to do that to a cow?
    Don't forget to include the fact that in order for a cow to produce milk humans can use, she must first become pregnant and then the calf will be taken away from them (probably killed and eaten).

    A wild mammal produces enough milk for her own babies, and when they gradually cease to need that milk, the milk production slowly decreases. The pain 'argument' only refers to a bad side effect of the domestication and exploitation of cows.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  22. #172
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Aye, very much so Korn ..

    The dairy industry creates an unnatural cause of suffering to the cow (interrupted nursing of its calf) in order that they can milk it. They then argue that they have to milk the cow or else the cow will suffer.

    The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  23. #173
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk consider wrong?

    Hi again, princesslolaluv - we also have this thread:
    Arguments against dairy products
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  24. #174
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.
    It is surprising, but some non-vegans don't even seem to realise that cows need to have calves in order to produce milk - their mental model of milk production may be more like a fuel pump (say) than to a human mother

    Bet you wish you hadn't asked now, princess

  25. #175

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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.
    Have you always been vegan, Cupid?
    I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
    I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.

  26. #176
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
    I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.
    Well put fiamma. It's too easy as vegans to have a 'pop' at the ignorance, daftness or lack of empathy (towards the plight of animals) of omnis, conveniently forgetting that nearly all of us were omnis at one time. Omnis now, are the people we used to be.

    leedsveg

  27. #177
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Yes, I find it quite hard to remember what I knew/thought before becoming vegan (though there's probably an online conference or forum archive somewhere that would tell me ).

    It seems hard to believe that we wouldn't have known cows needed to calve in order to lactate, but as fiamma says we probably just hadn't thought about it.

  28. #178
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    'Lo LV, Fiamma,

    A quick re-read of my post should make it clear that I acknowledged people to otherwise be "quite intelligent".

    It's not just a matter of "not questioning" either. There is a constant institutionalised bombardment, ranging from blatant to sublimal, designed to re-inforce the anti-truths and reversals of reality that the meat industry depends upon.

    Omnis now, are the people we used to be.
    Words of great wisdom there LV

    I still have the screaming hump with all the veg-heads I ever met who timidly tried tickling the concrete reinforced bunker of my ignorance with feather dusters. If they had had 'compassion' for me, or for the stream of 'victims' I was creating at the time, they would have taken sledgehammers to it.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  29. #179
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Aye, very much so Korn ..

    The dairy industry creates an unnatural cause of suffering to the cow (interrupted nursing of its calf) in order that they can milk it. They then argue that they have to milk the cow or else the cow will suffer.

    The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.
    Quote fiamma View Post
    Have you always been vegan, Cupid?
    I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
    I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.
    For me-intelligence encompasses questioning everything and not accepting things as okay just because the majority does them. Thinking for onself, in other words.
    The greatest mistake is to do nothing because you can only do a little.

  30. #180
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    I cannot edit my post for some reason, but I want to add, the OP has done just that, I am not judging her.
    The greatest mistake is to do nothing because you can only do a little.

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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?

  32. #182
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    I still have the screaming hump with all the veg-heads I ever met who timidly tried tickling the concrete reinforced bunker of my ignorance with feather dusters. If they had had 'compassion' for me, or for the stream of 'victims' I was creating at the time, they would have taken sledgehammers to it.
    Cupid. You are strong and forceful with your opinions and no doubt before you became a vegan, you were equally strong and forceful with your opinions. I think it's a bit rich though if/when we present ourselves as the victims and blame others because they didn't try hard enough to persuade us to go veggie/vegan. We expect omnis to take full responsibility for their actions but this has to apply to us too when we were omnis.

    Leedsveg

  33. #183
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote harpy View Post
    It is surprising, but some non-vegans don't even seem to realise that cows need to have calves in order to produce milk
    This is soo true, my parents have struggled with the idea of me being vegan, even though I live away to study. But over Christmas a rather large debate came up and my Mum will not accept that a cow has to be pregnant to produce the milk.. Does anyone have any evidence from a website somewhere to prove that they do? You and I know its true but others find it difficult to accept!

    Does anyone also have the problem that people will talk about things but if you show them evidence from a vegan website their immediate response is that the view is biased.. Well surely people who believe the ethics of eating animals and dairy to be wrong are going to be the ones to research it? If a Doctor turned around and provided you advice on how to best maintain one of your organs after researching it themself, would you turn around and say Im sorry your information is biased, do you have any unbiased evidence? Bah!!

  34. #184
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Hi phiewe - there is an earlier thread here http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...dairy-industry where I and others posted some links that may provide you with ammunition. I think I found some from DEFRA which as a government department can't be accused of having a vegan bias. Shout if you don't see what you need and I'll have a further dig.

    I think it's true that cows can go on producing milk for a long time after having a calf but to maintain the required levels of "productivity" they need to have more calves. I don't think they will produce milk without having at least one calf unless there is some hormonal abnormality.

    I suspect that part of the problem is that people just won't listen to this sort of information until they're in some sense "ready" for it - so (even if they're not as forceful as Cupid Stunt ) it would probably difficult to persuade them to take it in before that time. I think if you stick to being vegan for a while and show that you're happy and healthy with it, your family may listen a bit more later.

  35. #185
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Cupid. You are strong and forceful with your opinions and no doubt before you became a vegan, you were equally strong and forceful with your opinions. I think it's a bit rich though if/when we present ourselves as the victims and blame others because they didn't try hard enough to persuade us to go veggie/vegan. We expect omnis to take full responsibility for their actions but this has to apply to us too when we were omnis.

    Leedsveg
    Don't, in the nicest way, agree LV ...

    I don't expect omnis to take responsibility for their actions.

    I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  36. #186
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    Don't, in the nicest way, agree LV ...

    I don't expect omnis to take responsibility for their actions.

    I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was.
    Cupid. I'm afraid I just couldn't see you as a brain-washed victim nor could I imagine, in view of your personality, that veg-heads would have found you in your omni days, an 'easy convert'. So these veg-heads lacked compassion because they didn't try harder? Mm. I'd love to hear their side of the story!

    lv

  37. #187
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    (add to last post because edit function not working)

    Not trying to 'have a go' at you Cupid, by the way. I'm just desperately trying to follow the logic of what you're saying. Can I ask you if anybody at all in the whole animal food producing/eating business should feel/accept any sense of responsibilty for what they're doing or are they all brain-washed?

    lv

  38. #188
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganism why is milk consider wrong?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Cupid. I'm afraid I just couldn't see you as a brain-washed victim nor could I imagine, in view of your personality, that veg-heads would have found you in your omni days, an 'easy convert'. So these veg-heads lacked compassion because they didn't try harder? Mm. I'd love to hear their side of the story!

    lv
    I don't know what side of the story the few veg-heads I ever encountered (they were rare in our younger days?) would tell LV.

    I do know this tho'; All the veg-heads I ever met, without exception, were easy enough for meat eaters to laugh at and make fun of and my personality then was not as it is now. (I was bullied virtualy non-stop as a child, phsycologicaly at home and physicaly outside). That alone, as I was terrified of becoming a 'target', was enough to overide anything 'gentle' veg-heads had to say. They were weak in my eyes and no ferkin' way was I was joining the weaklings again.

    Probably posted this before ... I did not ever mean to become a veg-head. I accidentaly de-toxed during my super-fit days (I was in training for a 'knock down' competition, basicaly the nearest thing to legal bare knuckle fighting that existed at the time) and couldn't eat meat again. The toxicity of the stuff simply meant that my system rejected it (and the taste became disgusting beyond belief!) and that was that. No going back.

    Now I was terrified again. All the bad things that I had been brainwashed into believing (mainly by exploitation of my fears) were going to happen. I was going to become weak. I was going to become ill. I was going to become marginalised and bulllied again.

    None of that actualy came to be, obviously. What actualy happened was, paraphrasing the buddha, that the "great obstacle to my compassion" no longer existed. Without that the meat eater lies and bullying tactics that I had never been able to see before became clear as day. That pissed me off most mightily. The b'stards had 'had' me! Not only had I been 'bullied' without being aware but I had also been made a 'bully' of animals and had joined in with the bullying of those who did not eat them.

    Anyways, the short of that self indulgent ramble is this: I am, unashamedly, a butt kicking vegan who takes on absolutely anyone, any place in any numbers. I make damn sure that anyone who takes me or any other veg*an on, mistaking the 'gentleness' of veg*ism for weakness, learns as thorough a lesson as it is within my personal abilities to give them.

    That is exactly what I needed someone to do for me (but no one did do) when I was a brainwashed slave to the meat eating habit and so it is exactly what I do for others.

    Not trying to 'have a go' at you Cupid, by the way. I'm just desperately trying to follow the logic of what you're saying. Can I ask you if anybody at all in the whole animal food producing/eating business should feel/accept any sense of responsibilty for what they're doing or are they all brain-washed?
    Would have to do a 1,000+ page 'buddhist logic 101' to cover that fully most honourable matey ...

    Bottom line is this though; Absolutely everyone in the whole animal food producing/eating business is a victim of delusion as to the root causes of their own suffering and to the qualities of mind that bring out about their own happiness.

    By the very nature of delusion no one can be entirely responsible for their actions for as long as they are victims to it.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  39. #189
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    ^^^

    Thanks CS for taking the time to compose such a long reply. We obviously see some things in different ways and as the song says "You sat tom-ay-toe and I say tom-ah-toe". I'm aware that I've gone off topic in the last couple of days so I'll "call the whole thing off" and leave the thread now.

    Leedsveg

  40. #190
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?
    Nope.
    The greatest mistake is to do nothing because you can only do a little.

  41. #191
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote fiamma View Post
    Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?
    I think I can think for myself ...

    'Least I can't think of anything I haven't thought of yet ...
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  42. #192

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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote Festered View Post
    Nope.
    Short and sweet...

    But hang on... when I said
    Quote fiamma View Post
    I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them
    and you said
    Quote Festered View Post
    For me-intelligence encompasses questioning everything and not accepting things as okay just because the majority does them. Thinking for onself, in other words.
    ... I could have sworn you meant... oh, never mind.

  43. #193
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    You're a vegan? You've obviously not accepted things as okay?
    The greatest mistake is to do nothing because you can only do a little.

  44. #194
    spartacus
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    To all vegans:

    If I keep a small goat or a heritage breed of dairy cows -- do you consider it wrong for me to tend them and milk them using traditional methods?

  45. #195
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Why would you do that - since their milk is for their own babies - and since you don't need that milk? ;-)
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  46. #196
    spartacus
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote Korn View Post
    Why would you do that - since their milk is for their own babies - and since you don't need that milk? ;-)
    1.) All mamal species are capable of producing excess milk. With proper feed and timing of milking goats and cows can and do produce enough milk to feed their young and also to supplu human needs.

    2.) If one has an infant and the infants mother is not producing enough milk, there is a need.

    3.) Soy production harms the environnment and directly contributes to deforestation of the Amazon rain forest and the biological desertification of the plains of North America.

    4.) If one lives in a northern climate with lots of snow and forest -- a goat can live on what it browses in your own yard and surrounding woods. A soy or other vegan milk-like product would require the destruction of wildlife habitat as well as fossil fuels to grow, harvest, process and transport it.

    5.) A milk substitute product for an infant in addition to the energy and land-use damage caused, costs a large amount of money for a family trying to live close to the land in the upper parts of rural North America.

  47. #197
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    As an adult, would you milk your mom and drink her milk? Would you milk your dog and drink his milk?
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  48. #198
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    "his" should be "her" LOL
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  49. #199
    spartacus
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote RubyDuby View Post
    As an adult, would you milk your mom and drink her milk? Would you milk your dog and drink his milk?
    Well I have drunk my wife's while she nursed (unintentionally). ; )

    If my mother was lactating and I needed milk for my baby -- sure no problem. It's called wet-nursing and is as old humankind.

    It would not make sense to keep dogs for milk. There is no cost benefit as dogs eat meat. Goats browse on all sorts of plants. Cows graze grass. Cows and goats convert abundant, locally native, natural plant matter into protein needed for developing babies.

  50. #200
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why is milk considered wrong?

    Quote spartacus View Post
    1.) All mamal species are capable of producing excess milk. With proper feed and timing of milking goats and cows can and do produce enough milk to feed their young and also to supplu human needs.
    They can provide more milk than their babies nee, but that's not a reason to use their milk.

    2.) If one has an infant and the infants mother is not producing enough milk, there is a need.
    Your bringing up another 'special situation' here; human babies that can't get human milk from their babies. Most non-human milk consumed by humans isn't within such special situations, and babies don't need milk from goats or cow's. And: not only do I not want to keep animals in captivity and take their milk, nor do I need it - but there are other solutions that doesn't involve using milk from other species. No other animals use milk from other species, or drink it throughout their whole life, by the way.

    3.) Soy production harms the environnment and directly contributes to deforestation of the Amazon rain forest and the biological desertification of the plains of North America.
    Then don't use soy milk. I never do, and lots of vegans never use anything with soy in it. The possible bad effects of producing soy is no reason to keep a goat.


    4.) If one lives in a northern climate with lots of snow and forest -- a goat can live on what it browses in your own yard and surrounding woods. A soy or other vegan milk-like product would require the destruction of wildlife habitat as well as fossil fuels to grow, harvest, process and transport it.
    Again, even if a goat *can* survive in the snow - that, in itself, is no reason to use it's milk. A vegan group of humans wouldn't seek or settle in an area where they can't survive on plants. The reason some people live in areas where plants don't grow is either that they weren't vegans in the first place, that they arrived in a season where there was no snow, or that their ancestors arrived in this area when the climate was different/warm. Or they got stuck there!

    5.) A milk substitute product for an infant in addition to the energy and land-use damage caused, costs a large amount of money for a family trying to live close to the land in the upper parts of rural North America.
    [/QUOTE]
    It seems that you try to focus on special situations which for some people would be seen as valid reasons to use animal products in order to survive. But what about all those who don't live under these conditions? Would you - if you aren't a baby, or a parent to a child in an area covered my snow 6 months a year (etc) live on a vegan diet? If not - why?

    Producing nutrients for humans through raising animals and then killing the animals or using their milk seems like cruel waste of a lot of energy and land. The amount of wild animals - in most parts of the world - isn't enough to keep the local humans supplied with meat (etc) for more than a few weeks anyway, given the high number of animals and the low number of wild animals. So what was possible 10,000 years ago isn't possible today, even if you'd prefer such a lifestyle.

    We don't need milk from goats or other animals. We need nutrients, and we can get them all without killing or harming any animals.

    Since you think that there's nothing wrong with killing animals for food ("so long as the animals are treated respectfully"), of course you don't mind keeping them for milk (milk which you don't even need). The question isn't - the way I see it - if you think it's OK to kill an animal for food, but if the animal feels that it's "OK". It doesn't. And you don't need to kill it. I don't know if you feel an urge to kill animals, but even if you do - that alone isn't a valid reason to kill it.

    With all due respect: I see that you - in multiple posts - have posted some of the same questions several times now. All these questions have already been discussed, several times, in other threads. And: threads discussing a multitude of topics often end up quite chaotic. So my humble suggestion is that instead of repeating your questions, please spend a day or two searching for our existing threads about the same topics, and come back afterwards if there are questions that aren't already addressed.

    Regarding your interest in 'special situations', maybe these threads will interest you:
    veganism in cold climates
    Switching to a pre-modern diet
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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