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Thread: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

  1. #51

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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Thanks Missbettie, its lovely to be able to talk to people who are accepting and understanding

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  3. #53
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote missbettie View Post
    its just disrespectful IMO.
    How is it disrespectful?

  4. #54
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    I can't really explain it, it just feels that way to me. So many people have lost their lives over this and so many more peoples lives have been affected. The biggest one is that "9/11 is an inside job". Like the government killed sooo many people just to start a war? I mean, come on.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  5. #55
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    So really you only find it disrespectful because you don't believe it. I think a lot of people do firmly believe it, they obviously don't mean any disrespect by it and I find it deeply unfair that believers of conspiracy theories related to 9/11 often suffer from people attempting to censor them just because it's not what the majority choose to believe.

    I suppose it's like when people get upset with vegans because they view us being vegan as indicating that they're doing something wrong and people don't like to be told that they're wrong.

  6. #56
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    sheesh. Its just MY opinion. and I firmly believe it is disrespectful.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  7. #57
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote missbettie View Post
    i really don't like the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, or the inside job stuff...it seriously bothers me...
    same here, my pet hates are Conspiracy Theories and the 2012 end of the World thing .
    Oh, and Extreme Couponing

  8. #58
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    LOL Cobby. at least someone understands me. LOL
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote missbettie View Post
    sheesh. Its just MY opinion. and I firmly believe it is disrespectful.
    I see dismissing peoples alternative views on the events of 9/11 as disrespectful is itself disrespectful.

  10. #60
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    i'm not dismissing anything, i just think i think its disrespectful to think that way, i listen to people talk about it, i just really disagree. I apologize. I was just stating my opinion. I really don't understand why you are always so negative towards me.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  11. #61
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Honestly, it's nothing to do with you personally. I just find it disrespectful to tell people that they are being disrespectful for having alternative views. People don't have alternative views on the events of 9/11 in order to antagonise.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Well regardless. I wasn't trying to be rude. I was just stating how I feel. Bottom line is, its something that has affected the whole world in a very bad way. And thousands of people have died because of it. To me to say that its a hoax, or conspiracy it kind of means (to me) that those people all died in vain, ??

    I'm not trying to start nething. Just how I feel. But we all have different thought patterns.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  13. #63
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Well, to say it was a hoax, I agree would be disrespectful, does anyone do that?

    No matter what way you look at it people did die in vain, regardless of who's responsible. The responsibility of the deaths doesn't change that though the thought that your own government could be responsible is a much more difficult pill to swallow.

    I'm not sure either way in case you're interested but I'm erring on the side of the official story.

    The thing is, if it turns out that a conspiracy theory is correct, have they still been disrespectful?

  14. #64
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Risker, I know you're just up for a debate but Missb is still getting over the loss of her beloved pet, and obviously 9/11 is something she also feels strongly about. Maybe let her just state her opinion?

    Sometimes people don't want to explain their feelings. I have that same feeling about Conspiracy Theories and I can't really offer an explanation. I suppose I think it wouldn't change what happened even if it was a conspiracy, so why add to the feelings of outrage and grief by introducing such an idea .

    I do hear what you're saying Risker, just trying to explain that sometimes people can feel a little bit attacked by being pushed into a debate .

  15. #65
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Risker, I know you're just up for a debate
    I don't think so, really, cobweb. I think Risker probably feels strongly about it (and I agree with him strongly as a matter of fact*).

    Of course Missb is entitled to her viewpoint too and nobody wants to upset her. I remember a similar debate about this once before (can't remember if it was here or somewhere else) and we decided that there was a slightly different perspective from different sides of the Atlantic because (some) American people have feelings of loyalty to their government that (a lot of) British people certainly don't. (i.e. British people are less likely to be offended by the suggestion that their govt is up to no good, even if they don't believe it).

    Don't want to prolong the debate any more if it's upsetting people so will try not to say anything else (sits on hands).

    * One reason I feel strongly about this is that if I or my friends were directly affected by something like 9/11 or 7/7 I would be i favour of making sure that the official explanation of what had happened was the correct one, so I would want any alternative theories to be evaluated and not brushed under the carpet. Of course that doesn't mean people should make up alternative explanations in a frivolous way.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    ok, probably I shouldn't have stuck my nose in, and at the end of the day of course everyone's entitled to their own theories and ideas, I just empathised with miss bettie because the 9/11 conspiracy theory thing makes me wince, aswell. Most probably because I can't live in a world where so called 'civilised' governments could do such a thing, and as I have to live in THIS world, I don't want to consider it.

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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote Firestorm View Post
    Thats if he ever existed in the first place
    I wish I had kept my cakehole shut, this comment was supposed to be a bit of lighthearted banter, thats why I apologised to missbettie when I thought I had caused offence.
    If it was something that I truly believed then I would have defended myself, sorry for any trouble caused

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote Firestorm View Post
    I wish I had kept my cakehole shut, this comment was supposed to be a bit of lighthearted banter, thats why I apologised to missbettie when I thought I had caused offence.
    If it was something that I truly believed then I would have defended myself, sorry for any trouble caused

    Don't be silly, I don't think anyone's really been hurt or offended here, it's just a touchy subject - doesn't mean we can't discuss it though. We're vegans, therefore we discuss .

  19. #69
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Actually Firestorm, I had far rather you hadn't mentioned 'cakehole' as it's started me off craving cake (again) lol

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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"


  21. #71
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    i'm definately not hurt, or offended...mostly confused because I feel like the only time Risker talks to me is to be obstinate with me!! OF course I am extremely sensitive and overreacted like a crazy person. And Firestorm, i'm glad you said something...I guess I just don't understand why people would believe that or think that way? oh well its not important...whats important with the whole thing, whats worth remembering is just all the destruction this whole ordeal caused....regardless of how it happened...i guess it really doesn't matter...

    for what its worth, I appreciate you guys having different ideas and opinions than me...its always good to question the world we live in and what society deems as the norm...especially when we do have a system like the governments that structure our lives...its good to question it.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  22. #72
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote missbettie View Post
    i'm definately not hurt, or offended...mostly confused because I feel like the only time Risker talks to me is to be obstinate with me!!
    Hadn't noticed personally, I must just disagree with you a lot.

  23. #73
    RubyDuby
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    There are definitely a few people on this forum that seem to only talk to other people [thatthey don't know personally] if they are disagreeing with them... and it can be hard to not feel picked on. It also can make them seem like a bully, or the type of person who takes pride in "speaking their mind".

    It's hard to not misunderstand people on both sides of these situations when we don't know each other in person and can't really see how we all are IRL.

    sorry for being a rude American, but shit happens.

    c'est la vie.
    Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty.

  24. #74
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    ^ very true. Sorry Risker, i'm seriously just a very oversensitive person.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  25. #75
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    At least and at last nearly 2 weeks on from the opening post, we can now all agree (I think) that a person called Osama bin Laden lived and recently died. What exactly he was responsible for during his lifetime, is very much open to speculation. I like to think that there's hope for everybody but although I personally never knew the chap, I have difficulty in imagining that he would ever have changed and become a compassionate vegan. I didn't celebrate his death but I didn't mourn it either and as he seemed to "live by the sword", the manner of his passing was not unexpected.

    The people now killing in Pakistan "in retaliation for bin Laden's death" had already killed thousands before he died so what's that about?

    Leedsveg

  26. #76
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    ^ agreed.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  27. #77
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    The people now killing in Pakistan "in retaliation for bin Laden's death" had already killed thousands before he died so what's that about?
    I was saying exactly this earlier today. Are we supposed to assume that they weren't really trying before but are now going to go full time?

  28. #78
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    its a scary world...we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't...
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  29. #79
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Yes, it's a scary world indeed missbettie. We've not had nuclear weapons used in anger since 1945 but as more and more countries possess them (Israel, Iran, Pakistan, India, China, North Korea et al) I think we're getting to the stage of "when" they're used again, rather than "if" they're used again.

    Leedsveg

  30. #80
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    ^ yup. the first thing i thought out when I found out Bin Laden was dead, was I really hope the US didn't kill him...I was hoping for a cave in or something....
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  31. #81
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    I just noticed this thread.

    I know this is old news, from just after the assassination, but I only learned of it recently, since it wasn't reported much in the UK.
    So 'China' told USA that any attack on Pakistan would be construed as an attack on China.

    Link to one article:
    http://www.hudson-ny.org/2152/china-warns-us-pakistan

    I don't know whether to be pleased that I was not paying too much attention to it all.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  32. #82
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote whalespace View Post
    but I only learned of it recently, since it wasn't reported much in the UK.
    I know you are all like Mr Wild Man, could live off the earth type of person - but I didn't think this extended to you actually living in a cave or under a rock!!

    lol
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  33. #83
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    I certainly heard a lot about the assassination and disposal of the body, but nothing about Beijing being prepared to go to war about a similar incursion.
    I didn't go researching the assassination because I thought it didn't make a lot of difference to the status quo. Not all movements or regimes stop when the 'leader' dies. 'Leader' is very simplistic.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  34. #84
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    For UK tv watchers tonight (Wednesday 7 Sept) at 21.00 on Channel 4: Bin Laden:inside the War Room

    Per the Radio Times "The most complete story yet of the operation to find and kill Osama Bin Laden. A stellar cast of White House insiders speak on camera, including the first documentary interview with President Obama on the subject, while dramatisations show US Navy Seals coming face to face with the most wanted man in recent history. Based on high-level CIA and White House briefings, the film reveals that President Obama received last-minute intelligence that caused many of his advisors to turn against the operation".



    Leedsveg

  35. #85
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Did you (or anyone) watch it? I'm curious what this panned out to be: "the film reveals that President Obama received last-minute intelligence that caused many of his advisors to turn against the operation"
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

  36. #86
    leedsveg
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    Hi BV

    It was an interesting film.

    Apparently Obama's advisors were 60-70% sure that the operation would be a success ie that Bin Laden would be killed. Even if the military assault on the compound was to go exactly to plan (which in the event, it didn't) the Americans were not absolutely certain that Bin Laden was living there. A few days before the assault, the complete operational plans were passed to a team of independant analysts and they concluded that there was only a 30-40% chance of success. Obama had only about a day to mull things over (because of the iffy weather/moonlight conditions over Abbottabad) and he decided to "go for it" as he personally thought the chances of success were 50/50 and the risks were worth taking.

    Not really what I'd call "last minute intelligence".

    (At the start of the programme, we were given to understand that the information obtained by torturing prisoners at Guantanamo Bay was what led the Americans to Bin Laden's courier, Al-Kuwaiti, and from him, to Bin Laden.)

    Leedsveg

  37. #87
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    There will be quite a few 9/11 programs on British tv over the next few days, with the tenth anniversary. I have considered that this post is slightly off topic, but considering Osama Bin Laden [whom I am not defending] is considered to be the "man behind 9/11", this is relevant.

    I heard some French and German television channels will be airing consideration of circumstances surrounding the "collapse" of building seven of the world trade centre... though it is unlikely that UK media will cover it. So if you were going to take a refresher in the official line, maybe spend fifteen minutes looking at a video at

    http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/


    ...which is the most compelling "evidence" I have seen relating to "additional forces" at work during 9/11.

    Not just interesting , but the kind of evidence which one would encounter in court.

    I truly admire those passengers whom resisted the hijack of that other passenger jet, before it could meet its target.
    Problematic is waking someone whom pretends to sleep.

  38. #88
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    ^^^

    I'll have a look at that whalespace.

    Don't know if anyone saw it but there was a programme on BBC3 last night called 9/11:Conspiracy Road Tip? Five English conspiracy believers were taken on a road trip from New York to Washington, with the presenter trying to convince them that their beliefs were incorrect. One totally changed his belief, one slightly changed, but the beliefs of the other three may as well have been set in concrete.

    Leedsveg

  39. #89
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    I saw that, I thought it was terrible, totally biased and the presenter was very rude about his travelling companions. He was also ridiculously stubborn about his own viewpoint while expecting others to change theirs to fit in to his own.

    It should have been called proselytising road trip.
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  40. #90
    leedsveg
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    Quote Risker View Post
    I saw that, I thought it was terrible, totally biased and the presenter was very rude about his travelling companions. He was also ridiculously stubborn about his own viewpoint while expecting others to change theirs to fit in to his own.

    It should have been called proselytising road trip.
    I thought it was a poor programme with a poor presenter. Not sure that it was biased though because both "sides" were given the opportunity to present their views.

    Leedsveg

  41. #91
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I thought it was a poor programme with a poor presenter. Not sure that it was biased though because both "sides" were given the opportunity to present their views.

    Leedsveg
    The reason I say it was biased was because the presenter knew in advance what their doubts were and arranged meetings with people who were supportive of the official story and willing to refute their claims. It wasn't a fact finding quest but a series of meetings that the presenter had arranged to tell the other people they were wrong. All of the 'experts' supported the official line - that was no coincidence.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  42. #92
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    Quote Risker View Post
    The reason I say it was biased was because the presenter knew in advance what their doubts were and arranged meetings with people who were supportive of the official story and willing to refute their claims. It wasn't a fact finding quest but a series of meetings that the presenter had arranged to tell the other people they were wrong. All of the 'experts' supported the official line - that was no coincidence.
    I understand what you say Risker but I don't think the intention of the programme was to go into technical details in depth from all sides. The 5 conspiracy theorists had certain views before they set off, and on the journey, they met experts and non-experts who tried to explain and/or demonstrate why those views were wrong. Is it possible that the experts/non-experts could be telling the truth, especially coming out with eye-witness and "ear-witness" evidence? And that their consistancy in contributing to the "official story" is because the "official story" is what actually happened?

    You can look at all the bits and pieces that went to make up 9/11 and you will find some apparent inconsistencies because that is what happens with complex scenarios (and they don't come more complex than 9/11). At the end of the day, it may come down to asking yourself "Why would the Americans have orchestrated 9/11?" and "Would it be possible to keep quiet the many, many people who would be involved in such a plot?"

    Oh, and I do believe the Americans landed on the moon in 1969 and Elvis is really dead.

    Leedsveg

  43. #93
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    I understand what you say Risker but I don't think the intention of the programme was to go into technical details in depth from all sides. The 5 conspiracy theorists had certain views before they set off, and on the journey, they met experts and non-experts who tried to explain and/or demonstrate why those views were wrong. Is it possible that the experts/non-experts could be telling the truth, especially coming out with eye-witness and "ear-witness" evidence? And that their consistancy in contributing to the "official story" is because the "official story" is what actually happened?
    I'm not saying that anyone was lying, just that the presenter made it perfectly clear that his mission in the program was not to learn anything but to convince these people they were wrong. The 'experts' were chosen because they agreed with the presenter rather than being chosen impartially. I also thought that introducing them to the mother of someone who died on one of the planes was tactless and trying to use emotion to cloud judgement when she had no real evidence to dispute the claim made that the phone call could have been engineered other than how she felt.

    If like you say, the intention was not to go in to technical details in depth from all sides then it was like I say, obviously biased.

    Imagine if they'd done the same with veganism, taking 5 vegans on a trip to see several 'experts' who opposed veganism. The 5 vegans give a reason for veganism each in advance and then the presenter and the experts they choose have all the time they want to come up with reasons to refute their claims while the 5 vegans have to argue their case on the spot from a weaker position because they are not considered 'experts' in the field.

    For anyone that wants to see it, here's the link - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b014gpjx (Sorry, it's probably UK only)
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  44. #94
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    whoah whoah LV....Elvis is NOT dead.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  45. #95
    leedsveg
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    Hi Risker

    From what you say, I think that you wanted a much more ambitious programme where all sides of the conspiracy debate would be involved. From the simple blurb (I quoted above) in the Radio Times, I never expected that and so was not disappointed. The premise of the programme was to take 5 conspiracy theorists to the actual scenes of 9/11, and by means of experiments, and discussions with actual "players" and witnesses, see if the theorists would (could?) change their views. I think the intention was more to provide entertainment than to provide a full, forensic and fair examination of what took place on 9/11.
    Do you seriously believe 9/11 was an American conspiracy Risker? I don't. Not much more I can say really on this subject as we probably won't agree and we're a bit off-topic.
    Cheers anyway.



    Missbettie

    If Elvis is not dead, please reassure me that he's not gonna try making a comeback...

    Leedsveg

  46. #96
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Lol
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  47. #97
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    Do you seriously believe 9/11 was an American conspiracy Risker? I don't. Not much I want to say really on this subject as we probably won't agree and we're a bit off-topic.
    Cheers.
    I don't believe it was all a conspiracy but I'm sure some conspiracies were involved. The most obvious of course being the invasion of Iraq however I'm sure there's a lot more we don't know about. I don't agree with following the official line of events without question and I'm very glad there are people out there that do question these things whether they're right or wrong.

    What I find distasteful is that these people are unfairly treated as a minority. This was a program that set about trying to 'correct' the minority for thinking differently to the masses. It's not just this program either, I've seen many cases of 11/9 conspiracy theorists being abused and intimidated by people who would seek to discourage any alternative view of events because they deem it emotionally disrespectful (which is a horrible method of stifling discussion).

    I think I empathise with the conspiracy theorists because as a member of a minority group myself I would find the tactics used by the program offensive if they used them against veganism. It's not fair to treat people as automatically wrong just because they don't hold the view of the general populace.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  48. #98
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    For those who missed "Bin Laden:Inside the War Room" on tv last Wednesday (SPOILER:see my postings #84/86) it's being repeated tonight.

    Details are: Bin Laden: Shoot to Kill: Channel 4, Saturday Sept 10th, 19.45-21.15

    (Don't know why the programme has changed it's name, nor the running time gone down from 100mins to 90mins. Conspiracy anybody?)

    Leedsveg

  49. #99
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Funnily enough they just did a bit on QI where they mentioned that they've tried putting light aircraft pilots in to jumbo jet planes to see if they could land them and found that they were totally incapable of operating them.

    This completely contradicts the information given by the 'expert' on conspiracy road trip.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  50. #100
    leedsveg
    Guest

    Default Re: Reports say "Osama Bin Laden is dead"

    Quote Risker View Post
    Funnily enough they just did a bit on QI where they mentioned that they've tried putting light aircraft pilots in to jumbo jet planes to see if they could land them and found that they were totally incapable of operating them.

    This completely contradicts the information given by the 'expert' on conspiracy road trip.
    For those who don't know, QI is a tv comedy quiz show with a blog for those who take it seriously and want to point out errors of fact or opinion.

    If 9/11 was one big conspiracy, then hundreds (thousands?), must have been involved in it. Maybe some "participants" will start blabbing in the next 10 years, if so I'll begin taking more interest (if I'm still around). Until then, I'm out of this topic/thread.

    Leedsveg

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