Does man really need to possess pets or can we just leave the animals alone?

[Clueless Git]

Completely made up maths here, just to make a point ..

Say;

1. The residual number of hardcore 'twonks' in a given population abandons 1,000 animals a year.

2. For every 500 of those animals rescued 'twonkism' increases and results in 501 abandoned animals per year more ..


Needs no further explanation (I hope?) and that is DEFINITELY what is going on.

[CoolCat]

If one version of "Ah!, but would happen to the all animals we already bred?" cannot be compared to another version of "Ah!, but would happen to the all animals we already bred?" then what can?

The fact that one group using the "Ah!, but would happen to the all animals we already bred?" argument percieves its motivations to be entirely different to t'other groups motivation is entirely irrelevant to whether the argument is, or is not, logicaly sound.

I don't say things to cause offence Sandra. I, like everyone else does, simply say what I see.

The omni's argument "but what would we do with all the cows" is one rooted in the fact that many think we would just be breeding cows for the hell of it and not 'use' them. Or at least that is what I got from talking to people who haven't thought things true (yet).

In reality if eating meat and consuming diary would decline over time by the number of vegans increasing, the number of animals that are bred would reduce, but the ones that were bred would still be processed.

With the pet industry it would be different, even if it comes to a full breeding ban suddenly, for the next 5-10 years for small animals, 10-17 years for cats and dogs, and maybe up to 30 years for horses and 70 years for some species of birds and reptiles we would still have to care for them. And that is not taking into account animals thrown out already breeding by themselfs.

You wouldn't close the butcher shops but still continue to breed and slaughter animals. Letting the dead carcasses just pile up wouldn't make sense. You need to shut down a system at every stage of it and not just a single part. If there are serial abandoners you don't deal with them by closing shelters, then they will just flush animals or find some other horrible ways. You need to proper deal with them.

[Johnstuff]

I don't get why people argue so much when we're mostly in agreement. I hope that people put more energy into combating the 'abuse industries' than they do in argueing amongst ourselves.

I don't think that the omni's justifications here can really be compared to the reasons vegans adopt unwanted animals.

It sounds a bit like the arguement that giving to charities (eg. food for the starving) actually perpetuates the problem because it gives dodgy regiems a safety net. There is a point here and maybe it is more effective to put one's energy into directly combating the 'abusers' then helping the abused but IMO there can be serveral approches that do good. I'd never condem or blame those who choose to help the abused victims for causing the problem. Remember the blame lies with the 'abuser'. Help the abused, great. Combat the abuser, great.

There is a danger that by (for example) having fun at the park with a (adopted) dog, children will see and then ask their (less enlightened) parents to buy them a dog. So I would say that we have a duty to try and stop this if possible (eg. if kids come and pet your dog you could explain about rescues etc.). I'm sure everyone here will agree and probably does this.

[sandra]

If one version of "Ah!, but would happen to the all animals we already bred?" cannot be compared to another version of "Ah!, but would happen to the all animals we already bred?" then what can?
I don't say things to cause offence Sandra. I, like everyone else does, simply say what I see.

Well, for a start one version wants to kill the animals and the other wants to respect the animals lives and allow them to live as comfortably as possible.

You do not offend me Cupid Stunt, you merely amuse me. Have you ever wondered why you are on moderated posts?
I am leaving this thread now as I have asked the question numerous times now but you or Goodoldrebel refuse to answer it...........What do you propose doing with the animals who need homes if all the shelters are closed down?
I'll never know if you did eventually answer this question as I will not visit this thread again, so I'll just leave you to carry on with whatever it is you are up to.

[goodoldrebel]

One cannot ignore that a shelter does complete the pet breeding-dumping cycle as harsh as it may appear, shelters paradoxically with all the good and kindheartered intentions do provide a way for irresponsible pet owners to continue this albatross around society's neck of unwanted domesticated animals. This media image of the little child oohing and ahhing over a puppy has to be modified. Are so many of us stifled in the Walt Disney stage of emotional development? I am not referring to the posters here but society in general with this obsession to domesticate and captivate animals. The MSG dog show is the epitome of mindlessness and jerkwater nonsense to which I'm sure most of us here will agree. Domestication and captivation does not equal love. You can truly love the animals enough to just let them be and send a message to the childish adults who dump pets that there is no outlet anymore. Yes, my position here is edgy but somewhere sometime someone has to cry 'enough'.

Domesticated animals can be tracked by license renewels, vacinations and microchipped thereby this argument of them just being abandoned is somewhat shallow. Criminal charges the same as child abuse should be enacted and enforced. Animal control and enforcement needs financial help. I think that quality of life issues would be enhanced also if we directed our financial resources to enforcement rather than 'animal day care' which to me sounds like a band aid on approach to the pandemic problem.

[cobweb]

so your take is that we need to IGNORE unwanted 'pets', leave them to their fate, whether that be getting run over by a truck, starving to death (a very long and painful process), or possibly being tortured by feral teenagers?. You think that's a better way to deal with things rather than shelters taking in those animals but also being pro-active about educating people about the 'pet trade'?.

[CoolCat]

Shelters does not make people dump more animals. Just as rape victim support groups don't make rapists rape. People don't become alcholics because there is the AA they can go to. Cars don't breakdown because there are motor assistance companies. None here debates that there shouldn't be something done, and that public opinion is messed up and has to change. We are just disagreeing that closing shelters is not the way to go. And there is nothing edgy about your views at all, sorry if I burst that bubble, they are just a bit off. As for people getting the wrong impression from vegans caring for animals... what impression does a bunch of vegans yelling "close shelters now" gives?

EDIT: you added the second paragraph to your post in a later edit. Sadly the measures you mention do not prevent anything, they only work retro-active.

[goodoldrebel]

Shelters does not make people dump more animals. Just as rape victim support groups don't make rapists rape. People don't become alcholics because there is the AA they can go to. Cars don't breakdown because there are motor assistance companies. None here debates that there shouldn't be something done, and that public opinion is messed up and has to change. We are just disagreeing that closing shelters is not the way to go. And there is nothing edgy about your views at all, sorry if I burst that bubble, they are just a bit off. As for people getting the wrong impression from vegans caring for animals... what impression does a bunch of vegans yelling "close shelters now" gives?

Perhaps, human nature needs to embelish to justify a position. When did I say close all the shelters? I think some are taking a journalistic license here. What has to happen is that shelters only be used by animal control and enforcement and not available to joe public for dumping who is not getting a bang out of his pet dollars anymore. There should be no way that owners can just dump their pet to a shelter. I don't give a you know what if their pet now is inconvienent or whatever mickey mouse story they have. What is this fear that I hear as if we are being threatened with 'pet abuse' if we don't take the animal off the flakey hands of their owners. This is what animal enforcement is all about.

Why should it be so easy to rid one's self of a pet? If the animal is truly a part of the household then why make it so easy to get rid of. Easy come easy go.

[cobweb]

I think a lot has to with the law, to be honest. If a person has a child here in the U.K, they are almost always put into a system which begins before the baby is born. So the baby becomes very trackable, the parent(s) are legally and morally accountable. If the child becomes an inconvenience, the parent can get financial and other help from the system. A parent also knows that if they neglect or abuse or dump their child then they will (probably) end up with serious consequences.

'Pets', despite what you maintain, Rebel, are often not very trackable/traceable. Do you think that most abandoned pets have been microchipped?. Even if past 'owners' are traced, they can say that they lost or sold the animal. And even if that person admits to dumping the animal, it's extremely unlikely that they'll be dealt with severely.

Laws do need to change in order to protect animals and give people who deal with the fall-out more powers.

I did make the personal choice to explain to every person who brought an animal in to the shelter where I worked, how upsetting this would be for the animal, and how many others are waiting to come in. I used to have a dream of running a shelter with an integral education centre, where school children would come and learn about responsibilites. I do believe that education is vital.

I do see your argument for non-acceptance of pet-keeping, but I do not see your argument that shelters encourage people to dump animals. I think it was much more the case that shelters sprang out of a need *because* people were doing this (and worse). I don't think many people open shelters (that eat money and cause a LOT of stress to those running them) because they have a hole in their lives, they do it because they see a need. It's irresponsible people who need punishing, not innocent animals.

[goodoldrebel]

I think a lot has to with the law, to be honest. If a person has a child here in the U.K, they are almost always put into a system which begins before the baby is born. So the baby becomes very trackable, the parent(s) are legally and morally accountable. If the child becomes an inconvenience, the parent can get financial and other help from the system. A parent also knows that if they neglect or abuse or dump their child then they will (probably) end up with serious consequences.

'Pets', despite what you maintain, Rebel, are often not very trackable/traceable. Do you think that most abandoned pets have been microchipped?. Even if past 'owners' are traced, they can say that they lost or sold the animal. And even if that person admits to dumping the animal, it's extremely unlikely that they'll be dealt with severely.

Laws do need to change in order to protect animals and give people who deal with the fall-out more powers.

I do see your argument for non-acceptance of pet-keeping, but I do not see your argument that shelters encourage people to dump animals. I think it was much more the case that shelters sprang out of a need *because* people were doing this (and worse). I don't think many people open shelters (that eat money and cause a LOT of stress to those running them) because they have a hole in their lives, they do it because they see a need. It's irresponsible people who need punishing, not innocent animals.

I hear you and appreciate your sincerity. Perhaps its a little different in the states. The dogs that I adopted were from the same shelter and today the shelter has the same problem as they always had, mostly rottys and pit bulls and other almost impossible animals to adopt. This doesn't seem to change even after a great number of years.

All this because some adolescent (from a cognitive standpoint) is able to get off the hook. This is the issue that must be addressed. Anyway, I applaud your devotion to caring for these animals. The mindless beings who owned these dumped animals needed to get a life when they originally purchased the animal. It should not be so easy for someone who is not mature themselves yet (from an emotionally developmental standpoint) to be able to take on a pet.

Code enforcement can be the answer. I know places in Florida where animal control and enforcement are doing great things and really impacting on this romanticized notion of being a pet owner.

[cobweb]

^ ok, I agree, but I also think that what you're describing is really a social problem. A by-product of the throw-away society. And if it's mainly pure-bred dogs getting dumped where you live, then much tighter restrictions are obviously needed (yes as vegans we want to see an end to breeding but being realistic this isn't going to happen......yet).

In the UK all types of 'pets' are regularly handed in to shelters, the pure-bred or pedigree dogs less so. We also have many specialist breed rescues here. Where I worked it was mostly cross-breeds that we cared for, but also quite a few Collie Sheep dogs and abandoned ex-racing hounds (plus loads and loads of non-pedigree cats, rabbits, hamsters, and a few birds and chinchillas - also horses, sheep, goats and donkeys) .

[snowflower]

I'm probably getting off topic here, but just some ideas i had:

That's good that you have a lot of the special breed rescues, we have have some of those over here too.. I used to volunteer at a shelter (years ago) and it was almost all large size, mixed breed dogs. I never saw any small dogs stay longer than a few days, and LOTS of cats. Any rabbits or small animals would get adopted out quickly usually.. most of the dogs there not well behaved at all (not saying it's the dog's fault) but you could tell their prior owners probably were not the type of people who invested much attention in training the dog at all, and you could tell that a lot of them really weren't used to being around people because some of them you weren't even allowed to handle as a volunteer because they were aggressive. So it seems like these owners get these large dogs, they don't come from breeders so they're not paying for them, its cute as a puppy so they think it will be a cool companion, the dog acts up, doesn't behave, and they either don't know how to train them or don't care to and then they end up as strays after the this huge dog gets out of the yard, or get brought in. So, another idea that would help with that, would be maybe some type of training classes at the shelter that would be free that people could learn how to handle these type of dogs (as gor said, rottweilers and pitbulls).. maybe that would help stop people from getting frustrated and just dumping them??

it seems like since their are mostly mixed breeds, or pitbulls and rottweilers, then that would suggest that the people who have the money to spend on a purebred also have the money, time, an attention to train them and therefore less of them end up in shelters. just an idea.....

[snowflower]

^ where i live we also have the ex grayhounds that race, they have groups that bring them in to the chain pet stores (ones that don't sell dogs or cats) on certain days, like they'll have a grayhound adoption day. Its so sad when i saw them because you can tell they had a tough life.

[goodoldrebel]

It's a shame that dogs such as greyhounds are used to entertain the mindless cigar smoking, alchohol drinking gambler type of human being. I know I'm stereotyping but the point I'm making is the selfishness of many in society. Same with horseracing. I adopted a standardbred racehorse after she injured her foot enough to make her noncompetitive (not disabled at all) . They bred her first and then I adopted her.

I agree that this is a by-product of the throw away society and lack of basic family values

[cobweb]

I had a Standarbred Pacer aswell, Rebel, he was 'too slow'. Really sweet horse.

Snowflower I agree. Not blowing my own trumpet but I started dog training lessons at the rescue I lived at on my days off because it was frustrating me that 'bad manners' on the part of the dogs (aka usually the 'owners' not having a clue!) seemed to be the main reason for dogs getting brought in. I also started a scheme for giving adopters information sheets to take home with their animal, because most of them didn't seem to be blessed with common sense or the ability to look things up! .

[goodoldrebel]

I had a Standarbred Pacer aswell, Rebel, he was 'too slow'. Really sweet horse..

That's great to hear. The one I had probably never had a saddle on her before I adopted her for she was a sulky racer. I used a kimberwick bit for she liked to ride but she sensed if you were a real rider. Once, another horse owner (who purchased an Arabian and spent alot of time feeding it potato chips and taking pictures of the horse while hiring someone else to care of her horse), asked to ride my horse. I warned her that she's not a push button horse and low and behold as soon as this person got on her, my horse rammed her into the fence and I had to rescue her and help her off the horse. I told her that when you get a horse you should be able to ride first and horseownership is not about showing and bragging that you own a horse when you can't even ride.

[leedsveg]

^^



Seem to remember horse riding and veganism being discussed in a thread some time ago but cannot find it.

Leedsveg

[cobweb]

Completely made up maths here, just to make a point ..

Say;

1. The residual number of hardcore 'twonks' in a given population abandons 1,000 animals a year.

2. For every 500 of those animals rescued 'twonkism' increases and results in 501 abandoned animals per year more ..


Needs no further explanation (I hope?) and that is DEFINITELY what is going on.

well.............if there were no shelters, maybe 900 of those abandoned animals would be drowned, shot, or starved to death...........simple solution eh?

[cobweb]

That's great to hear. The one I had probably never had a saddle on her before I adopted her for she was a sulky racer. I used a kimberwick bit for she liked to ride but she sensed if you were a real rider. Once, another horse owner (who purchased an Arabian and spent alot of time feeding it potato chips and taking pictures of the horse while hiring someone else to care of her horse), asked to ride my horse. I warned her that she's not a push button horse and low and behold as soon as this person got on her, my horse rammed her into the fence and I had to rescue her and help her off the horse. I told her that when you get a horse you should be able to ride first and horseownership is not about showing and bragging that you own a horse when you can't even ride.

I'm guessing you no longer ride or agree with horse 'ownership'?.
My boy was also a sulky racer before I had him, but luckily not for long so he kept his sweet nature.

[kikifromscotland]

You never replied to my question earlier about your comment regarding how someone should only own a dog to herd sheep because then it has 'a purpose' and now you're talking about horse 'ownership' and saying that you need to be able to ride to adopt a horse. I agree with horse rescue in the same sense as I agree with rescue of any other domestic animal... But from what ive seen in previous threads most here do not agree with horse riding as it is using someone rather than just caring for them and letting them be. I know I wouldn't like it if someone got on my back and started nudging me so I'd run around and I don't see why horses should have to put up with it either.

That's great to hear. The one I had probably never had a saddle on her before I adopted her for she was a sulky racer. I used a kimberwick bit for she liked to ride but she sensed if you were a real rider. Once, another horse owner (who purchased an Arabian and spent alot of time feeding it potato chips and taking pictures of the horse while hiring someone else to care of her horse), asked to ride my horse. I warned her that she's not a push button horse and low and behold as soon as this person got on her, my horse rammed her into the fence and I had to rescue her and help her off the horse. I told her that when you get a horse you should be able to ride first and horseownership is not about showing and bragging that you own a horse when you can't even ride.

[goodoldrebel]

You never replied to my question earlier about your comment regarding how someone should only own a dog to herd sheep because then it has 'a purpose' and now you're talking about horse 'ownership' and saying that you need to be able to ride to adopt a horse. I agree with horse rescue in the same sense as I agree with rescue of any other domestic animal... But from what ive seen in previous threads most here do not agree with horse riding as it is using someone rather than just caring for them and letting them be. I know I wouldn't like it if someone got on my back and started nudging me so I'd run around and I don't see why horses should have to put up with it either.

I don't think that you understand the idea of horse ownership. They need to be exercised. Just going around and around on a lunge line is not enough and not great for their feet. If left alone while contained in a ranch they will get fat and become unhealthy. I sensed that my horse actually liked to ride but I can't absolutely confirm that unless she was 'Mrs. Ed'. As she got old I stopped riding her. In fact the last time I rode her I had no saddle, no bit, no bridle on her. She was as free spirited as the day she was born.

Just a haulter. She was so calm and I actually felt that she knew why I removed all that stuff.

As far as the sheep herding instinct in that type of dog, I believe that they are quite happy doing that and if no sheep are available they will attempt to herd anything. Remember this situation would not qualify as a pet and is not harming the animal.

[CoolCat]

I think most here, and I would hope all actually, would oppose the idea of horse ownership. If you lock a horse in a small pasture without (a) companion(s) to run with it will just end up being very stationary. Horses live in a herd, they aren't solitary animals. Except maybe the males that didn't find females yet, but they would have something to run to then heh. The idea of strapping dead cow to a horse to ride it can't be rhymed with being vegan at all in my opinion.

In regards to sheep herding dogs, what about the sheep? Owning a "working" dog and not calling it a "pet" doesn't make it ok at all. You can't justify having a dog because you have sheep when sheep shouldn't be property either.

Remember this situation would not qualify as a pet and is not harming the animal.

Owning animals that work for their keep is no different from a vegan perspective as owning pets. Expecting / forcing the animals to work makes it even worse. There is no need for it our society. Veganism isn't only about not harming animals, it's about not using them at all.

[cobweb]

hahahaha, sorry, but this is hilarious!!!

so you think pet ownership is wrong, but horse ownership, and ownership of working animals is fine?. Even if those farm dogs are used to herd farm animals for people's plates?. Even when the farm dogs are often chained up and/or left outside in all weathers?. And what do you think happens to the 'working' animals who are too old/slow/insolent/no longer 'needed'?.

My flabber is gasted.

[Tofu Monkey]

I'm very much the same as some of you. I will never buy an animal from a breeder, pet shop or somebody who has clearly just produced a 'litter' to make some money on the side.

However, there are so many animals that are discarded because some people don't understand the responsibility that comes with looking after animals. While there are still animals in need of a home, I shall give them it. I currently have 11 rats, all of which were rescues from people who were giving them terrible lives. Living with me they get the freedom and care that they didn't have before.

Most people view the animals that live with them 'theirs', almost like a glorified toy that helps the human to get gratification from it. I don't claim to 'own' mine (in fact they seem to own me ), I am merely a refuge to give them the best life I feel they deserve.

[goodoldrebel]

What happens to the pet when you go out to work for 8 hours? In essence, pets are prisoners. If you leave a dog for 8 hours or more unrestricted then you are living in unsanitary conditions. Dogs like all species need to eat, drink, urinate and deficate regularly. Anyone, who thinks that dogs should not deficate or urinate for 8+ hours are in essence committing animal cruelty making the dog suffer in a cage for 8+ hours until the owner gets back from work. All for what? so the owner can delude themselves (like some limited life experience shallow adolescent) into extracting love from the dog? Some think that when the dog is licking you on the face its all emotion. For the most part they are smelling and trying to taste the food on your breath.

Even if you don't work, what happens to the dog when you go out or are you sequestered to your home 24/7 because of the dog? I've seen so many urban dwellers with big dogs and I wonder what happens to the dog when the owner has to go to work or go to school or go anywhere. Owning a breed of dog is all about ego, just like a car, dogs have become a "what kind of dog do you have" image projection. Owners think they can build an image vicariously through the dog or car they own. We have to stop this pet cycle. Humans should live with humans and animals should live with animals, we don't need to capture them for our own gratification.

[sandra]

Any responsible person wouldn't leave an animal alone for 8 hours................if they do, they shouldn't be looking after that animal.
I agree humans shouldn't keep animals as 'pets'..............but because of humans manipulating animals for their own purposes there are unfortunately thousands of animals who do need vegans to look after them...........but I don't want to restart that argument.

[harpy]

Humans should live with humans and animals should live with animals, we don't need to capture them for our own gratification.

I agree with the second part of this, but not necessarily the first. It's possible some animals have self-domesticated. Do you think the humans should have kicked the animals out?

[cobweb]

I agree with the second part of this, but not necessarily the first. It's possible some animals have self-domesticated. Do you think the humans should have kicked the animals out?

Yes, there is a lot of evidence that animals, particularly dogs, chose to live with human beings many civilisations ago, for food, shelter and comfort reasons.

[cobweb]

It is bad that people leave animals home alone for many hours at a time.
I wonder what farmers do with their 'working' animals when they're not being used then, hrm......

[cobweb]

Actually I should have left 'my' cat alone. I found her last year, living outdoors under some trees, in sub-zero temperatures. I really shouldn't have taken possession of her, as a good and intelligent vegan I should have left (the animals) alone. She was very thin, and as it turns out, has chronic kidney failure and a bad heart. I could have left her to die a lingering and lonely death if only I'd read this thread before!. Silly me.

[sandra]

Exactly Cobweb! I'm the same I stupidly took in a pregnant feral cat, I too should have left her to fend for herself and her kittens. I'm sure she could have fought off the local yobs who think it's funny to attack cats and dogs for fun (I won't go into the gory details of what they do).........her 6 kittens probably could have fought them off too, well, when their eyes opened anyway............. I really am a stupid vegan.

[treehugga]

I think admire both stances that suggest not having ''pets'' or rescuing those animals from shelters who need a home. I think they are both fabulous things for vegans to do. I've had companion animals most of my life but in recent years allowed them to dwindle and now I just have a very old cat and some rescued hens. I'm tending to lean towards us not having companion animals, but still admire those that do. My son however, has a burning urge to have a dog. When I have had dogs I always kept a number of them as they are a pack animal and I feel it's unkind to just keep an only dog. I also worry about being at work/school and the poor dog being alone. My son argues he wants to rescue one and give it a good life and really, save its life. I'm not sure what to do for the best.

[LittleRedPiano]

I live with two dogs, rescued from a shelter I worked at. They do not poo all over the sidewalk??? and if they did I'd pick it up so that's just a ridiculous statement in my opinion.

I don't show my dogs or dress them up, I didn't choose them to make myself look tough, they are not caged for 8 hours a day??! I prefer to spend my time with them than any humans I know, and they were saved from death at the pound. Now am I such an"adolescent"?

Yes there are a lot of bad "pet owners" out there but I think you're just being offensive in assuming everyone is like that.

Edited to add: I worked at this shelter for over 3 years and if they couldn't leave the animal with us, they would dump it. I had people walking out talking about getting a gun/hammer, not nice. Wouldn't you prefer the shelter take them in and try and give them another chance at a good life?

I also agree that, yes, humans may treat animals as "theirs" but again, as you have already been asked, what do you suggest we do with all the unwanted, dumped animals?? You still haven't answered this?

Please speak for yourself when talking about people needing people.....I much prefer my animals company to most humans.

Lastly, unfortunately, there will always be demand for pets and there will always be breeders and pet shops, so the best that we, as vegans, can do is care for the animals other people have discarded. There is nothing adolescent or immature about that.

[LittleRedPiano]

That's great to hear. The one I had probably never had a saddle on her before I adopted her for she was a sulky racer. I used a kimberwick bit for she liked to ride but she sensed if you were a real rider. Once, another horse owner (who purchased an Arabian and spent alot of time feeding it potato chips and taking pictures of the horse while hiring someone else to care of her horse), asked to ride my horse. I warned her that she's not a push button horse and low and behold as soon as this person got on her, my horse rammed her into the fence and I had to rescue her and help her off the horse. I told her that when you get a horse you should be able to ride first and horseownership is not about showing and bragging that you own a horse when you can't even ride.

So I'm adolescent and immature for rescuing dogs but you can ride a horse?

[leedsveg]

I too wondered about that!



Lv

[CoolCat]

So I'm adolescent and immature for rescuing dogs but you can ride a horse?

Maybe he is confusing the proverbial high horse he's on with actually riding a horse...

[leedsveg]

Maybe he is confusing the proverbial high horse he's on with actually riding a horse...

Like it. (Mind you, I do laugh at the most foalish things.)

Lv

[harpy]

The mane thing is to have something to laugh at.

[leedsveg]

...and not have night-mares.

Lv

[harpy]

Not sure it behooves me to comment further.

[leedsveg]

You're the queen of the puns harpy. Long may you rein.

Lv

[harpy]

Thanks lv, but you're filly up to my standards when it comes to puns.

[sandra]

^ You two make a great double act!

[tjay10]

As you can see from my picture I share my home with a beautiful cat. I live with two cats, they are rescue animals and were going to be killed. In an ideal world I do not think we should have any companion animals but we have created the problem so have to deal with it with care and compassion. I do not actually believe in keeping pets as such and cannot stand to see anything caged. As a vegan pet ownership is still exploitation of animals however you look at it.

Ok just realised you can't see pic, don't know what happened there!

[Crusty Rat]

I'm a little confused by this thread. I completely agree that the pet industry is just another example of animals being used and abused for entertainment (and other - why you differentiate between them I'm not sure) purposes. However, I live with a rabbit who was found stray on a council estate in Nottingham. I give him the best life I can - he has free roam of the house while we're in, while we're out he's confined to his own room - there's a large cage in there but it's always open. As far as I can tell, he's incredibly happy and healthy, always bombing and binkying around the house, jumping up demanding cuddles. It doesn't feel right keeping him contained, but there's no way he'd survive (or enjoy it) in the wild, factoring in his mutant Dutch markings, lack of a wild upbringing plus hunters, traffic, poisons, traps and other disgusting things spread by humans. Plus he won't even go out in the garden without us! What would you suggest I do?

[tjay10]

Sorry if I offended, when I said I cannot stand to see anything caged that did not mean that I think it is unnecessary. We have in the past taken in rabbits, guinea pigs, mice and hamsters, all of which had to be caged. I just said that in an "ideal world" I wouldn't want to see it but man has created this massive pet industry and so the need is most definiately there. I have just always felt a sense of guilt and unease when I see any animal confined (I even help spiders get out of the bath)!

[Crusty Rat]

Oh, I should have clarified, I was talking about the OP. I hate seeing anyone caged too, but on balance I'd rather they were caged, neutered and cared for than out in the open at the mercy of less compassionate types or just plain murdered.

[rainbow]

I had a bad moment at an Xmas party yesterday. A colleague who is getting divorced lamented that her ex-husband gets to keep the cat. I sympathised and said that once she had got a new place to live sorted out, she should go to the local shelter and get a new cat. I am opposed in principle to "owning" animals and would prefer for all animals to be wild, but I am also aware that this ideal does not correspond perfectly to the current reality. As long as shelters are full of lovely abandoned animals, if you know someone is going to get a pet anyway, you might as well encourage them to rescue an animal from a shelter. Anyway, she pulled a face and said that rescue animals were "difficult". I pointed out that shelters are receiving more and more animals that have been well cared for in the past but with families who can no longer afford their upkeep, so these animals are in desperate need of rehousing and would make a great companion. She pulled another face and said "but I want a kitten!". I changed the subject and went to talk to someone else because I have to work with her and did not want her to see the contempt I felt for her shallow and callous attitude. I don't like to be judgemental and I'll get over it, but her attitude pretty much epitomises all that I despise about the pet industry.

[harpy]

Grrr. Shelters do often have kittens, for the record.

[Andy_T]

We have recently taken in two cats from a shelter, a 1 year old cat and her 3 month old kitten.

All I wanted to say is, I have my doubts about who in reality "posesses" whom, at least as far as cats are concerned

Best regards,
Andy