Is not eating animal products enough? Buying meat etc on behalf of others?

[Bailey]

hi folks
I posted this on another board and nobody replied. Wondered what your views are and I realise I might be asking a slightly biased (towards vehanism!!) audience...

If I consider meat and milk to be unethical I don't eat it. But you could argue that by not eating it I'm not actually changing anything at all except my own physical body. What makes a difference is my not BUYING it, or asking anyone to buy it for me (including indirectly, i.e. if people know I'm veggie they might not buy so many sausages for the bbq I'm attending, etc etc) - because consumer action is what influences the market.

So... is it worse, ethically, in that case, to spend money on meat/milk on someone else's behalf? Is it just annoying to refuse to buy a pint of milk for my husband if he hasn't got time to go to the shops? He would have spent the money on the milk anyway himself.

What about if I offer to bring food to a party and the hostess tells me she'd love it if I made some chocolate cakes for her with her favourite brand of chocolate on top? As it's a gift she wouldn't buy it for herself anyway. I would have to buy the chocolate and eggs for the cakes. She'd be so disappointed and a bit hurt if I said I wasn't doing that for her.

I suppose the point is - is it more unethical to inconvenience or upset people, especially people close to you - for the sake of an animal which died a long time ago and is incapable of appreciating your actions? With the best will in the world, even if people do understand that you are vegan for ethical reasons, they still might be offended or think you're being unnecessarily difficult or obstructive.

And I guess my other problem is: is not eating animal products enough? Is it just taking a backseat? If you have a vegan diet but don't do any campaigning to change farming practices, is that lazy? hypocritical? Selfish even? ( just being vegan to make yourself feel better, but not changing anything in the real world?)

I admire vegans a lot but haven't been able to go the whole way yet.

Thank you!

[Johnstuff]

Your right, it's more about not creating a demand and using animal products than simply not using them yourself.
I think non-vegans shouldn't expect vegans to buy them animal products ideally. You wouldn't expect a Jew to buy you some pork would you?

Everyone has their own line, I wouldn't buy meat for someone but I have placed lunch orders for meat when phoning mine, I don't pay for it and the others would order it anyway so I'm not creating any demand.

Good luck with going vegan

[Johnstuff]

Your right, it's more about not creating a demand and using animal products than simply not using them yourself.
I think non-vegans shouldn't expect vegans to buy them animal products ideally. You wouldn't expect a Jew to buy you some pork would you?

Everyone has their own line, I wouldn't buy meat for someone but I have placed lunch orders for meat when phoning mine, I don't pay for it and the others would order it anyway so I'm not creating any demand.

If you explain the situation well then I find most awkwardness can be avoided, your friends should also make an effort to try and understand how you feel.

Good luck with going vegan

[Korn]

So... is it worse, ethically, in that case, to spend money on meat/milk on someone else's behalf? Is it just annoying to refuse to buy a pint of milk for my husband if he hasn't got time to go to the shops? He would have spent the money on the milk anyway himself.

Be prepared for a long post!

First of all, we have a thread about this topic in the members area as well, here: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...ems-for-others It's easy to get access to this area for non-vegans as well. Just go vegan.

What about if I offer to bring food to a party and the hostess tells me she'd love it if I made some chocolate cakes for her with her favourite brand of chocolate on top?

What's your own answer to that question?

I suppose the point is - is it more unethical to inconvenience or upset people, especially people close to you - for the sake of an animal which died a long time ago and is incapable of appreciating your actions?

I'm not sure how the 'long time ago' is part of this... but there are no definitive, "authorized" vegans answer to such questions. If I would have been a meat eater, I wouldn't have asked a Muslim to buy or make a meal with pork, or a Hindu vegetarian to make me a beef. I would surprised if someone would ask me to prepare a non-vegan meal from them. But when someone are new vegans, their friend may not know it yet - so you may get questions like that - and have to make your won decision re. how to deal with them.

Whichever way you choose to respond, your response will influence how people communicate with you about such situations in the future - and/but I think such questions are more about how you present your viewpoints than what these viewpoints actually are. In the theoretical scenario that someone would ask me to make a non-vegan meal for them, I'd probably just say in a friendly way that I'm against using animal products so that's not my cup of tea, but that I'll can offer them something better instead: a non-vegan meal!

Luckily for all of us, there's no 'Vegan Bible' with all the 'right' answers or rules for how vegans shall behave. One vegan would maybe refuse to handle meat, but wouldn't mind bringing some cow's milk home from the supermarket, while other vegans make a living of cooking for others and can't refuse to handle meat, while others again boycott every contact with anima products that same way a non-cannibal would have refused to slaughter another human for some cannibal friends. Since there's no official vegan answer to all such questions, 'vegan' encompasses everyone who live without exploiting animals 'as much as practical and possible'. And in general, it's better to do one's best than to have theoretical discussions about how a 100% perfect vegan would behave in imaginary situations (although such discussions sometimes are relevant, in order to 'think loudly' with others about how far one can/should go to avoid animal products).

With the best will in the world, even if people do understand that you are vegan for ethical reasons, they still might be offended or think you're being unnecessarily difficult or obstructive.

Again - if you go vegan, it's up to you how you'll handle such situations (which most likely won't happen often, if they'll occur at all). If you decide that you won't handle meat etc. for others, it's IMO kind of easy to explain. You could say say that you think all small actions count, and when more people go vegan and won't be involved in harming/killing animals directly or indirectly, it will generally be more difficult for non-vegans to go for non-vegan solutions. And, to use another imaginary scenario, if 50% of the people in an imaginary city were vegans, and refused to serve/sell/prepare/transport/stock non-vegan products, the remaining 50% would have to related to that. To make life easier for them, they would avoid using animal products more often, because it would be a hassle if some crazy vegan out there refused to have anything to do with it.

Re. "He would have spent the money on the milk anyway himself": that could be said about a lot of situations, especially those imaginary ones which only exist in threads like this. For instance: "What if a slaughter asked a vegan to kill an animal for him, because if you wouldn't do it, he would do it anyway...". Sometimes these questions aren't about ethics, but respecting people's integrity.

Maybe it would "annoy" some non-vegans if you wouldn't buy/chop/cook meat for them in a given situation - but maybe it's "annoying" for some vegans if friends/family keep expecting that they handle animal products as well. I'm not saying that those 'annoying' ways to deal with such situations are best, or always best -I'm just saying that it's up to you find a way to deal with these things which works for you.

If someone would ask me a hot summer day if I would buy an ice cream for him at the local supermarket, I'd say yes - and buy them a vegan ice cream, even if it theoretically would 'annoy' them (I don't think it would).

If non-vegans know that vegans clearly prefer not to have anything to do with meat, fish, eggs etc, they'll just have relate to that. Personally, the idea of handling eg. meat, fish or eggs puts me off - it's just something I wouldn't be involved in. And that isn't about ethics, really. If someone would tell me that I would be 'annoying' if I wouldn't prepare a chicken meal for him, I'd just say in a friendly way that the chicken probably found the humans who harassed it by forcing it to live under the conditions it did were annoying as well, so thats 1-1 between animals and humans. I think most people will accept that cutting up other ex-living beings' dead bodies is something vegans simply aren't interested in. And while both chopping up meat and buying non-vegan ice cream for a friend sister both, from a logical point of view, both contribute to something which has harmed animals, the real life experience of these situations are different.

I guess I wouldn't make any difference if I was a non-vegan chef in a non-vegan restaurant who went vegan and suddenly refused to handle meat/fish etc, because they wouldn't have such a chef. They just find a non-vegan chef or vegan chef who was OK with making both vegan and non-vegan meals instead if me. And it would be good for vegans if non-vegan restaurants were populated with vegan chefs would use vegan alternatives whenever possible and add nice, vegan options to the menu. So - there are very few 'absolutes' answers in contexts like this.

And when vegans only represent a couple of percent of the population, the risk that we'll annoy someone is bigger than if lots of people were vegans.

The effect of isolated situations/small amounts etc. is also sometimes questionable - as discussed in this thread: Are you a Self Exhausting Microgram-Oriented Vegan?

And I guess my other problem is: is not eating animal products enough?

Vegans try to avoid animal products as much as possible - so it's not only about food. But when dealing with real life, trying too hard to be a 'perfect vegan' may simply result in ending up as a person who soon goes back to a non-vegan lifestyle. Some people seem to think that if they can't avoid animal products 100%, there's no reason to avoid animal products at all - a point of view which certainly don't make sense to me, and the same goes for other kinds of making a 'partial difference'. Perfectionist ideals don't go well along with veganism in a non-vegan society.

If you have a vegan diet but don't do any campaigning to change farming practices, is that lazy? hypocritical? Selfish even?

And here comes one of my favorite questions: "Compared with what?" You compare having a vegan with having a vegan diet AND also being an activist. But since you aren't a vegan yet, isn't the most relevant comparison if it's more selfish/lazy/hypocritical to eat vegan than to keep eating meat etc? ;-)

If you want to go vegan for selfish reasons - do it! If you save a dog from being killed by a car only to impress someone watching you, the dog is still saved, and probably will never know or wonder why you saved her life. And the same goes for all other animals not harmed or killed.

just being vegan to make yourself feel better, but not changing anything in the real world

You do change a lot in the real would just by not eating animal products. Remember that there are millions of 'you' out there - millions of people who make a difference whenever they make a different choice. You're not an isolated case, because there's lots of campaigning, literature, cookbooks, internet sites etc. who encourage people to go vegan. And looking at veganism's position in society today compared with the situation only a few decades ago, a LOT has changed - all as a result of millions of minor and major decisions made by humans.

Ironically - most non-vegans have never made a decision to use animal products - they do it just because they're used to it. They rarely question why they do it or if using animal products represent any positive change in their or anyone else's lives (compared with not using them). Since not making a choice also is a choice, you always make a difference - even if you don't try. By a burger, and you'v made a difference. It's all a question of what kind of difference you want to make.

I admire vegans a lot but haven't been able to go the whole way yet.

"The first step towards getting somewhere is to decide that you are not going to stay where you are."

[Andy_T]

Korn, great reply!

I'd just want to add that you can certainly make a vegan chocolate cake. Eggs are not at all required, and there are lots of great vegan chocolates on the market. And if your friend insists that you put her favourite chocolate on top, then that would strike me as a bit selfish on her part.

You could certainly reply that you would be delighted to bake the cakes, but that you would reply chocolate brand x with the vegan chocolate brand y which is a great and high-quality chocolate that you are sure she will absolutely love.

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

(replace not reply - don't know why it is not possible to edit these posts here)

[harpy]

In my experience people don't get upset by a refusal to buy non-vegan food once they understand that you are vegan for ethical reasons. As has been pointed out, we all decide for ourselves where to draw the line: for example if I am shopping for someone who can't do their own shopping because they are very old or ill, I will buy what they would get for themselves (while sneaking some vegan extras in for them to try).

If you have a vegan diet but don't do any campaigning to change farming practices, is that lazy? hypocritical? Selfish even? ( just being vegan to make yourself feel better, but not changing anything in the real world?)

Why don't you think it changes anything in the real world? The fewer people demand animal products, the fewer animals will be killed. If you can campaign too, so much the better.

If you would like to be vegan I suggest you just give it a try - I bet you won't regret it

[Bailey]

hi everyone
wow, thank you so much for the replies!

I hope it's true that any effort makes a difference. The reason I said it 'doesn't change anything in the real word' is that the act of eating doesn't - it's the act of buying. Also of course the conversations that arise, if they do, from the act of eating or not eating.

But thanks for the great replies, I am certainly reassured.

Here's a funny story for you - I put almond milk in my friend's tea. Not realising, he remarked 'mmm, it really tastes nicer with full cream milk in it doesn't it!' - ha ha ha. This is from an anti-vegan who claims to hate almonds.... And I once gave my parents soya vanilla dessert on their apple crumble. When I asked if they liked the 'custard' they said it was delicious! When I told them it was vegan they decided that of course it wasn't as nice as real custard....yeah right!!

None of the 'scenarios' in my original post were hypothetical, actually. And the reason I think of such things is that I don't want to be accused of not having thought things through or being inconsistent or illogical with reasoning (i.e. from non-vegans who would consider me idiotic for refusing to buy milk for them)

But good plan - I'm gonna put non-dairy chocolate on the cakes and watch them enjoy it

[thompsonrebirth]

I just joined the group so I didn't get your post until today. Your plight is an interesting one. I think it really comes down to a personal decision. How strongly do you fell about the consumption of animal products? If you are really uncomfortable with the idea of making your friend a chocolate cake, it's ok to tell her/him so. Veganism is not the most popular choice. Many people are not going to understand or be sympathetic to it, but it's still your choice. If your friend gets angry then, you might want to ask yourself if he/she was really your friend in the first place. I wouldn't lecture her/him. That's only going to turn her/him off veganism even more. Some people have real strong emotional and physical addictions to their food. Try to explain your position without threatening hers. Does that help?