New vegan, diet check

[Fiksdal]

Hey guys!

Lots of small reasons recently made me decide to go vegan. Some people say I may not get enough nutrients so I thought Id ask you guys if my diet is sufficient. I am a tall guy an exercise a lot. I also eat large quantities of whatever I eat. One thing that worries me a bit is that I kinda eat the same stuff every day. Is that ok?

Breakfast: Multi grain or oat cereal with 1 banana and 1 apple/pear. Multi-vitamin (includes B12). Calcium supplement. Sometimes B12/calc soy milk. Rapeseed oil.

Lunch: Wheat/Rye bread with peanut butter. 1 or 2 banans.

Dinner: Big portion of lentils or chickpeas, salad, 1 tomato, 1/3 red pepper, corn, extra virgin olive oil, balsamico vinegar, a bit of wholegrain rice or pasta.

Thanks in advance

[Allysia]

Hey there,

I just finished replying to someone how I've used nutritiondata.com to see if my typical daily food intake is adequate. You basically enter in all the food you've eaten and how much, and it gives you a full nutritional analysis - why don't you give that a go?

As far as variation goes, I know that most professional organizations explicitly state "eat a varied diet", as a way to ensure that you're meeting your nutritional needs. I know it's not always practical but switching it up does appear to be a good idea.

[Firestorm]

It might be a good idea to have some blood tests done to check that you're not deficient in anything, as you're taking a multivitamin you might be just fine, but its always worth being sure.
With regards to the food I would recommend trying to get some different foods in there to ensure that you are getting a wide variety of vitamins and minerals, maybe some different kind of nuts, seeds, tofu, tempeh, seitan, different fruits and vegetables, non-dairy yogurt, non-dairy cheese.

[Andy_T]

Hello Fiksdal,

welcome to the forum!
First of all, let me congratulate you on your decision to go vegan.

A few thoughts - please bear in mind however, that I am not a doctor or nutritian, only somebody who has been reading a lot of books on the issue lately.
One good book to consult is Vesanto Melina and Brenda Davis' 'Becoming vegan' that tells you which kind of nutrients you should include in your list. Other books I highly endorse are Dr. Joel Fuhrman's 'Eat to live' and Douglas Graham's 'The 80/10/10 diet' along with T. Colin Campbell's 'The China Study'.

Having said that, there are a few things that strike me as less than perfect about your diet ...

- Absence of leafy green vegetables (ok, you have the salad at dinner).
However, if you allow me to recite from 'Eat to live', "The salad is the dinner". Be sure to include lots of leafy green vegetables into your diet in order to have a large amount of nutrients and a small amount of calories, Fuhrman's idea for a healthy diet.

- Oils instead of nuts/grains
You need your omega 3's etc, and one way to get those is linseed or rapeseed. However, I would suggest to consume the oils/grains directly so that you get the fiber and other nutrients with it and also possibly reduce the calories you take in. While you do need calories to get your energy, I would strongly advocate against getting those from oils and fats (based on reading books by the aforementioned gentlemen).

- Large amount of bread / pasta
You specifically mention wholegrain pasta and rye bread, nevertheless those are also processed foods. Dr. Fuhrman suggests to limit those to one serving per day, and to "put white-flour bread and pasta right into the 'cakes and sweets' food group, as they are basically the same" and just as healthy for you. So I would encourage you to rely more on fruits and vegetables and less on bread, pasta and starchy vegetables (i.e. potatoes)

But - as I mentioned - I am not a nutritian or dietitian myself ... and as you well know, if you ask 3 nutritians, you will probably get 5 answers.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Just for your reference - my diet at the moment (so what I would consider to be somehow healthy) is...

- Large "Green Smoothie" for breakfast (1 apple, 1 pear, 1 banana, grapes, pineapple etc. and 200 grams of deep-frozen kale/spinach/arugula or other green herb), together with a pear, a banana, an apple

- Some fresh fruit throughout the morning and afternoon as snacks

- Lunch: Huge mound of steamed vegetables (e.g. broccoli) and salad without oil (just with balsamic vinegar / homemade raspberry lime dressing) ... and when I say huge mound, I mean it. I take a 'normal' plate and assemble on it a conical mound of vegetables. My colleagues always say that when the company cafeteria will end the 'self service' salad buffet and hire a guy to pass out salads, this will be because they are tired of being ripped off by me (salad is per plate, not by weight). So far, I have withstood the stalking of colleagues who come up to my table to take a picture of my salad with their mobile phones because their families would not believe them otherwise and stoically reply "Y'know, as a herbivore I need to eat lots of vegetables".

- Dinner: Here my wife normally prepares some dishes, most of the time chinese (sauteed / steamed vegetables, with a serving of rice, preferrable wholegrain, but most of the time our kids prefer white rice or pasta - then I limit myself and gorge myself on the vegetables instead). Very often, I make myself some legumes, e.g. garbanzo beans simmered in soymilk with red thai curry spice mix (would be nicer with coconut milk, but also have 10 times the fat and calories).

Oh yes, and some more of the green smoothie. I reckon if I could drink as much of it as I would like, I would drink a gallon of it every day.

Following this diet has helped me to lose about 30 pounds since last year, so I am now no longer in the 'overweight' BMI bracket, but in the 'normal' weight range.

[leedsveg]

Hi Fiksdal and welcome to the forum.

Nothing I can really add to the advice other members have given.


Leedsveg

[Fiksdal]

Thanks guys! I will add more different fruits and veggies. Maybe some hazel nuts to my cereal. I will definitely add more broccoli to the dinner and more lettuce. Also I will check out tofu cause I heard it is delicious and Ive never tasted it before. (still not sure where to buy it)

Andy, thanks for your long answer. I kinda feel like I need a lot of carbs because I am a hungry guy and excercise almost every day. Im kinda thin, so as long as Its healthy I wanna get plenty of calories in . I make the breads in my own home and use much wholegrain flour. I eat pasta only occasionally.

[nicefrog]

Hi Fiksdal, you can survive long term on just about anything. You just wont thrive on it. The main problem I've have with long term vaganism is that I didn't understand with effects of gluten intake on the body of certain races/peoples genetic make up and like a lot of vegans I made up most of my calories with wheat products (bread, pasta etc), which although I didn't realise it at the time had an instant and long term very bad effect on my body, mind and life in general. It wasn't the lack of meat that made me sick it was just the fact that I replaced it with excess gluten/wheat.

Fast forward 20 years and my only advice is drink lots of fresh green juice (smashed random vegetables and fruit) then you wont have to worry about lacking vitamins. Don't eat wheat or at least not much of it and you wont have to worry about loosing your intestines ability to absorb b12, if at any time in your journey you get skin problems like acne or any kind of skin rash or itchy skin,tired yet at the same time insomnia (caused by gluten induced lack of b12), or sore joints or bloating or an itchy feeling just under your ribs take this as a warning that you need to get off the gluten immediately. I know so many others that have been vegan long term had this also happen to them and now also have zero tolerance to gluten, that I feel it's worth mentioning.

These days I'm 40 years old, eat zero gluten lots of green juice and I'm in exquisite health... and very athletic. 2 years ago I had reached the low point, I had multiple serious health problems and felt I didn't have long to live. The only difference between then and now is that I no longer eat gluten. I just thought I'd mention this because with the diet you have presented above.....which is so full of oats and wheat. If you are of Northern European decent eating like that will most likely kill you in the end

[VeganZee]

Hi and welcome to the forum

[Korn]

Hi fellow Norwegian!

You've already gotten some good replies and maybe you'll get more... but just a short comment about "sometimes B12"... In some cases, just taking B12 "sometimes" isn't enough. (And, depending on a few factors: at other times, humans have stored enough B12 for weeks/months and even years). It's just impossible to give any specific B12 advice without knowing more about your B12 levels - and even then, nor only are most people here not dieticians or doctors, but even if we were, personal advice about something as important as diet isn't something which make a lot of sense to give through an internet forum. But B12 are generally better of taken as separate supplements (but make sure you get B9, calcium etc from food sources. THere's a thread bout this topic in the B12 section.

I kinda eat the same stuff every day. Is that ok?

Nope.




I had a quick look at your list, and IMHO it would be better to get Calcium from food than from supplements. In general, it's also good to include a generous amount of raw/green stuff on your plate...but I'm not a dietician and haven't analyzed your list to see if something is missing!

We do have a lot of threads about nutrition, and there are lots of articles about vegan nutrition on internet... so good luck with your proceedings!


(Btw, I just approved you registration and gave you a "Not Currently A Vegan" account, since you stated that you eat vegan but aren't a vegan. This means that for now, you can only post in this section.)

[Fiksdal]

These days I'm 40 years old, eat zero gluten lots of green juice and I'm in exquisite health... and very athletic. 2 years ago I had reached the low point, I had multiple serious health problems and felt I didn't have long to live. The only difference between then and now is that I no longer eat gluten. I just thought I'd mention this because with the diet you have presented above.....which is so full of oats and wheat. If you are of Northern European decent eating like that will most likely kill you in the end

dude I think Ive already lost some weight lately. where do I get my calories if not from grains etc? Maybe I should replace the lunch bread with chickpeas, lentils or beans? they fill me up alright, although its not quite the same

I e

[nicefrog]

dude I think Ive already lost some weight lately. where do I get my calories if not from grains etc? Maybe I should replace the lunch bread with chickpeas, lentils or beans? they fill me up alright, although its not quite the same

I e

You you are going to loose some weight, I'm 176cm and I weighed 60kg when I was 18, I weighed about 64kg immediately before becoming Vegan a couple of years after that and then lost about 5 kilos in 5 weeks :P. It takes a while for your body to become efficient at digesting the new diet.

After that stabilised I've weighed exactly 60 kilos for the last 20 years without going up or down apart from dropping to a VERY SKINNY 50.0kg for about 1 year while I was travelling and got some digestive bugs in the jungle. Right now I'm 60.o kg.

The reason I'm so concerned about you eating wheat and other gluten cereals is that for people of your race you have a very high chance of not being able to digest Gluten and for it to damage you in the long term. As much as I approve of being Vegan I would prefer anybody eat meat rather than have to go through years of being gluten intolerant. The good news is since I can't (and you probably wont very well either) digest foods with gluten anyway eating half the usual calories when you stop eating it made absolutely no difference to my weight and it improved me in every way.

I wouldn't worry too much about it right now just try and buy gluten free pasta and gluten free bread most of the time if you are going to be eating those kind of foods a lot, gluten free versions of all that stuff are easily available these days. Just to limit the damage to your gut, it's not something you would notice until 15 years later when the damage is done and it's too late but I'm just giving you a heads up about this. It's going to be a big big problem around the world 10 years from now with all the wheat that's in almost everything in the Western diet.

I would suggest eating a very heavy meal in the mornings, as high in protein and calories as you can get for your breakfast. Also if you are going to be eating chick peas or beans they are much more nutritious and better for you (and easier to be digested) if they have been sprouted and made a live food before you cook them. Once they kick into life the amount of vitamins in them doubles straight away.

The main things is to do your research on green juice/green smoothies as that's the thing what really kicks your health up and gives you lots of easy vitamins.

I had B12 tests occasionally over the years and never had a problem with it until I had really damaged myself with the gluten (which makes it impossible to digest B12 and you need injections), during the time where I was sick a few years ago I needed b12 shots each couple of weeks just to stay half functional but now that I don't eat gluten I can easily go 6 months without a b12 shot and probably am very close to not needed them at all

[Est]

Hi Fiksdal, and welcome to the forum!

Lots of good advice from other members. I wanted to add that I'm a 'mono diet' kind of person too. I find it much easier to buy similar stuff each week and, well, I just LIKE having my food the same. However, I do recognise that it's not the healthiest way to eat, so I've compromised. My breakfast and lunch are always similar - typically a big bowl of mixed fruit for breakfast (maybe 7 different fruits), and then tortilla wraps with mixed salad/seeds/hemp oil and a side of mixed nuts for lunch. I also have soya shakes and fruit juice during the day.

I then MAKE myself have something different for dinner every day to get the variety into my diet... maybe a stir fry with whole grain rice, or a jacket potato with raw vegetables/spinach and a dressing, or a soup with wholegrain bread, or a bean-and-salad sort of thing, or a bean chilli or a Thai curry. I'm not saying it's an ideal diet, but according to my nutrients wall chart I'm definitely getting a good range of nutrients by eating a lot of variety. So maybe you could have just one meal a day where you experiment and try introducing lots of new ingredients. It keeps most of your day 'mono' and makes it feel achievable to try different things too

[Andy_T]

dude I think Ive already lost some weight lately. where do I get my calories if not from grains etc? Maybe I should replace the lunch bread with chickpeas, lentils or beans? they fill me up alright, although its not quite the same

I e

Hello Fiksdal,

I guess replacing bread with legumes is a good idea. Take a look at this article from Dr. Fuhrman's website regarding the nutrient density of various foods:
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article17.aspx

You notice that while green vegetables take the (vegan) cake, legumes are also very good. Fresh, sweet fruit also has lots of carbohydrates and tastes delicious. Like yourself, I also could not picture myself without wholegrain bread (quite important in Germany), but I am now doing without it very much and not really missing it.

Take a look at Dr. Doug Graham's '80/10/10 diet'. He's a dietician whose specialty is to help athletes who are 'over the zenith' of their athletic career to make a comeback with a raw vegan (fruit and leafy greens based) diet.

Best regards,
Andy

[Mymblesdaughter]

I eat quite a bit of organic home made wholegrain bread and I don't think there's a problem with it, it seems popular to blame gluten for many eating disorders at the moment. Many people believe making you own slow risen bread can be eaten by people with Gluten intolerance as it's the way bread is produced commercially that's the problem. My partner and I have been Vegan for nearly 20 years and are both very healthy. Although I must add we didn't become Vegans for our health.

I agree that you need to eat more of a varied diet though, when I first became Vegan I used a vegan wall chart that you can buy from Animal aid http://www.animalaidshop.org.uk/hous...ion-wall-chart. I tried to have something from all of the food groups everyday. I found after a while you get to know what you should be eating.

[Fiksdal]

Thanks for all the advice guys! Today I skipped bread in lunch and had a huge salad with lentils and beans instead. Eating dinner now chickpeas and lentils avocado and all the veggies. Man I love this stuff, I dont really miss meat at all.

Korn
Im not sure if I have the proper vegan attitude or not :P I became vegan cause I dont like having dead animals in my stomach, thats all. I think animals are divine like humans, actually that all beings are one. But also I think its healthy and it saves money Ive noticed and lots of reasons. I dont really know if Im a proper vegan according to philosophy and stuff, its not important to me I guess.

Anyway, thanks guys. I think I know what changes to make now

[Andy_T]

Hi fiksdal, If you also stop wrapping your body with dead animals, then I guess you can call yourself a real vegan ;-)Best regards,Andy

[Fiksdal]

Hi fiksdal, If you also stop wrapping your body with dead animals, then I guess you can call yourself a real vegan ;-)Best regards,Andy

lol sounds like Im getting close

[Andy_T]

Kudos to that, then I guess you can apply for an 'upgrade' of your vegan status.

Or maybe you have to take the quiz first...

Best regards,
Andy

[Fiksdal]

Kudos to that, then I guess you can apply for an 'upgrade' of your vegan status.

Or maybe you have to take the quiz first...

Best regards,
Andy

how about stuff I already have? my guitar strap is leather and I got a wool blanket and sweater

where is the quiz?

[Andy_T]

Good question - there are both schools of thought.

I personally adhere to the one that thinks if you already have an animal product and throw it away, that would be like urinating on the grave of that animal (pardon my manner of speech). So I'd rather wear those out and replace them with vegan products at some point in time.

On the other hand, it grosses me out in the meantime to handle leather products, so those shoes and belts that I still have and do not want to chuck away do not see much use.

Best regards,
Andy

[Andy_T]

where is the quiz?

Oh, here's one: http://www.happycow.net/members/take_veg_iq_test.html

Best regards,
Andy

[Fiksdal]

thanks andy yeah good reasoing. if all humanity threw away their leather, we would have to produce lots of new stuff, leaving an impact on the environment and harming animals. lol you go crazy starting with this reasoing.

[vegetarian_cat]

If you're an athlete, you're eating way too much fat. I'd drop all the oils completely. There's plenty of fat in everything else you eat already and I'd add half an avocado once in a while if I were you instead.
As for nutrients, are you aware that most omnivores are deficient in at least 10 nutrients ?
The only 3 you have to worry about on a vegan diet are 3 of the 10 they are deficient in too, so it's not because of the diet.
They are :
iodium, cause it's no longer in the soil .
B12 and you're already taking a supplement, but did you first check if you were deficient ? It may be useless and harmful to take it if you don't need it
Calcium, but vegans lose half of what omnivores lose so you need a lot less and if you eat green leaves daily or almonds and oranges, you're fine.

So, all in all, change your diet more often, eat more fruit i'd say, considering you are very active (have you considered going bananas ? I'd HIGHLY recommend it) and drop the refined oil and you'll be good to go

[Firestorm]

how about stuff I already have? my guitar strap is leather and I got a wool blanket and sweater

I have been vegan for years and still have stuff from before I was vegan, I refuse to throw it away (as Andy_T says its insulting to the animal), but when its time to replace it, I will be getting the vegan versions.

[Fiksdal]

Oh, here's one: http://www.happycow.net/members/take_veg_iq_test.html

Best regards,
Andy

"Every second, one football field of rainforest is destroyed in order to produce 257 hamburgers."

lol.. ummmm.. what??

[Blueberries]

.... I just thought I'd mention this because with the diet you have presented above.....which is so full of oats and wheat. If you are of Northern European decent eating like that will most likely kill you in the end

I understand that you have had health problems because of gluten intolerances and I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful but people who do not have such intolerances are usually able to eat oats and wheat and be perfectly healthy, so there's no need to be so rude. For most people eating whole-grain bread and oats would be an improvement in their diets, so please keep the prophesising in perspective.

[pat sommer]

Lots of good points here. I don't refer to a chart, myself, just keep a tally in my head of what colors my family has eaten for the day/week.
Aiming to "Eat a Rainbow Everyday".
Also, cause variety is important, I limit wheat to once daily: if I make sandwiches then the pasta dinner will have to be maize or rice noodle (gluten-free aisle at supermarket).
When I make brown rice, I often throw in a handful of red rice or other grain.
With the familiar veg, I seek out new varieties especially if they have more color: how many cabbages are there out there?
A garnish of nuts/seeds adds something special to a meal: flaked almonds, toasted pumpkin seeds -a little goes a long way.
Since we love tomato sauce, I will substitute part with pureed veg like aubergine or onion or spinach -surprisingly mild and tasty.
For special dishes, use special oil: macademia or walnut oils add wonderful flavor for just a spoonful.

My mother swears by her blender to maintain good health: no more vitamin pills! She wizzes up all sorts of things like parsley and pumpkin seeds with frozen berries and it tastes good. She sure is fit for 72

[pat sommer]

Oh, wanted to add a bit about gluten: the varieties of wheat grown today are getting to Frankenstein stage. It ain't what our ancestors ate. Kamut and Spelt (Dinkel) are safe for most folks. Commercial yeast is also -if not labelled organic- a genetically modified organism (GMO) that does alter the loaf and how easily we can digest it (or not).

Support your local organic baker

[sable]

Hi. Whole grains are packed with nutrients. I don't mean whole grain bread or whole wheat pasta (allthough they are okey in moderation) but; Quinoua, brown rice, oats, amaranth, millet, and a bunch of others. This together with some good vegetables and some form of protein like beans, tofu, seitan, makes for a very good diet I think.
I also add hemp protein powder to a smoothie sometimes for extra protein.

If you're worried that you have gluten intolerance, just have a doctor test you for it. I read somewhere that a lot of people become sensitive to the wheatflours because we eat so much of it and that is different from having actual celiac. In this case it can help to cut out all wheat for a while (weeks or months) and then reintroduce it again. As long as it's whole grain it should be fine, allthough maybe not to make it the center of your diet.

Variation= important. Eating the same thing everyday is not good in the long run.

If you're gluten intolerante I really recommend an awesome blog called "diet, dessert and dogs". That place is full of interesting vegan,gluten free, whole foods recipes for anyone who thinks that type of food is boring.

[Fiksdal]

hi guys thanks for all the answers! this seems to be a friendly forum

Some time has passed and my stomach has gotten used to this diet more

Now I have only smoothies with many different frutis and soy-milk for both breakfast and lunch and to make them more filling I have chickpeas or oats in them, and I eat nuts throught the day.

For dinner Ive added heaps of different vegetables and lots of legumes to make them filling

I love this new diet style, I can feel the body loving it

for dinner now I put chickpeas in my blender with tomato, cuecumber, lettuce, garlic, lettuce, olive oil, oregano, pepper, salt, red pepper, then heated it all up and it tasted really awesome! kinda like some middle eastern dish. good dinner thanks for all the help guys, I bet Ill stay vegan til this body dies

[beachbum]

Nice decision. I think most of it was covered but I would suggest (if you can afford it) a vitamix blender and start making veggie smoothies in the morning (as mentioned before include spinach and Kale and whatever you like). From what I'm told B-12 should come from a dissolvable source vice something you swallow (I take something that dissolves under my tongue). I use grounded flax seed for Omega 3's and basically keep an eye on my protein intake. You don't need to go over board like people think but you probably should be getting 80-130 grams a day depending on your weight (that's probably well argued somewhere on this site)...

[Fiksdal]

thanks beachbum! I think I get enough protein even with my daily exercise. I drink half a litre of soymilk a day and have lots of tofu and legumes

I get b12 in my multivitamin but its also added to the soymilik. thats good enough, right?

Anyone living in or visiting Oslo should try Loving Hut Vegan Fastfood in Parkveien 6. This awesome Chinese couple who runs it invited me in for a soy-burger today and it must be the most awesome thing I have had in a while.

[Fiksdal]

also do you really live in Kabul? Are you Afghan? That got me curious

[pat sommer]

just noticed this bit, " red thai curry spice mix (would be nicer with coconut milk, but also have 10 times the fat and calories)"

Thought I'd share my trick of substituting half or 3/4 of the coconut milk with.... onions? Yes. Indian restaurants make an all-purpose masala (sauce) to douse onto the fried curry paste. Why not the same for Thai?

In a heavy bottom wide pot with well-fitting lid, fry off sliced onions (2cm or so) in a minimum of oil -onions no more than 5cm deep- stir occasionally until softened and preferred color (dark for massamam light for green curry). Next pour on a bit of water to half way up the onions, lower heat to barely a bubble or two, put on the lid and let cook til very tender around 40min. Blend this well and freeze any unused portions.

This way I get a splash of good coconut milk and don't overdo it with the fat and calories. Even get a nice dose of onion fiber which promotes healthy gut flora.

[Fiksdal]

is that a recipe or something? I dont have a problem with fats as long as they are healthy, I am kinda thin. I like onions, gonna add them to my salsa

[pat sommer]

It's a rough recipe for onion sauce, you might call it. Good additive-free coconut milk is an excellent source of fat and calories for weight gain. That's why I cut it in half with the onion 'cause I want to still fit into my jeans.

We have the Loving Hut chain here in Beijing too! From the same cult, one member opened here Vegan Hut which promotes more organic, less fake-meat. I am spoiled with vegan options!

[Fiksdal]

guys, most of my protein comes from soy and lentils. is it true that these foods lack essential amino acids? if so, where do I get those aminos? I am probably get them cause I eat many different vegetables, fruits and carbs, but just checking

[Firestorm]

2 of the best vegan "full protein" sources are Quinoa and Spirinula. If I remember rightly they both contain all the amino acids to make them full protein sources.

[beachbum]

Wow we have a Loving Hut in San Diego as well (Hill crest area). Yep I'm in Kabul for another 9 months (trying an guess my profession). Staying vegan hasn't been too much of a chore here but I do have to order things and supplements to keep me healthy. I eat lots of salads, order sun warrior protein powder, using flax seed (send from my g'friend), protein bars, black bean soup, and b-12 dissolvables for that. I feel really good and love the vegan way of life!

[Fiksdal]

Quinoia? Never tasted it. Its so expensive in Norway! Maybe I will give it a try.

beachbum, are you a soldier? Which country are you from?

[Korn]

is it true that these foods lack essential amino acids? if so, where do I get those aminos?

Hi Fiksdal, check this special section dedicated to protein...
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/for...e-Protein-Myth

[Fiksdal]

Thanks Korn. Anyway I read that soy is a full protein so I should be fine? Yesterday I found these awesome soy-flakes with 37g protein per 100g

[beachbum]

Technically I'm a Sailor but the US but there's no ocean here in Kabul. Don't hold that against me though, I retire in 6 years and can live a more relaxed lifestyle. By the way I second quinoa. Great soarce of protein, fairly cheap in the states not sure how it is in Europe though...

[Fiksdal]

Technically I'm a Sailor but the US but there's no ocean here in Kabul. Don't hold that against me though, I retire in 6 years and can live a more relaxed lifestyle....

does that mean US Navy? What do you do over there?

[beachbum]

In a nutshell I advise a senior Police Office on how to run a better administration (how to grade their folks, how to make sure their Officers transfer to better career enhancing jobs, basically setting up a western style administration so they can sustain themselves when we leave). I'm kind of an administrative weenie so that's what I advise on (not very exciting).

[pat sommer]

I hope your job stays unexciting, Beachbum, if you know what I mean!

All this talk of amino acids/protein harkens me back to the '70s when I thought that I was risking my life by not eating meat. I planned all meals around 'complimentary' foods; some pretty nasty menus! Since then we have a much better picture of human protein requirements but, shockingly, still the attitude more is better.

Have a look at the WHO's recommendations for each amino acid: mighty small indeed. Even a good portion of oats and millet suffice for day's allowance (found that in response to an 'authority' claiming cereals alone could not provide balanced aminos).