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Thread: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

  1. #51
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Rachael-Louise, if you're still reading, there are some book suggestions here:

    http://www.veganfamily.co.uk/kidsbookstore.html

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote harpy View Post
    Rachael-Louise, if you're still reading, there are some book suggestions here:

    http://www.veganfamily.co.uk/kidsbookstore.html
    Thankyou Harpy that is great!

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Have ordered two of them now and already have 'Thats why we dont eat animals' and 'Herb the vegetarian dragon' is on its way now too!!
    Thankyou again Harpy!

  4. #54
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Cobweb, to more or less tell someone who is expecting a baby in a few weeks that they "have no business having children, that is my opinion and actually I don't care if people think that's nasty" is - as I'm sure you understand - not acceptable on a site with the board rules we have. That goes for other things you have posted in this thread as well, and being 'nasty' and not care people think you are nasty or not definitely don't go well with our idea about no personal attacks and 'friendly dinner party'.

    I agree with the skepticism against relying only on soy formula. I've seen various comments about this over the years, and I think it's way overdue to let go of the obsession with soy some vegans, vegetarians and macrobiotics have had the last decades. Google soy formula side effects....

    I also agree with the comment that it's strange that some humans have problems with giving their baby milk from another human, but not from a cow.

    There's much (other than vegan issues) that potentially can generate conflict between two parents - or couples in general. And I strongly disagree with Cobwebs "you shouldn't have done this, Rachael-Louise!" approach. I'm also sure there are many parents who possibly could be categorized as having mental health issues who can be at least as devoted and loving parents as many other parents.

    There are many health risks associated with consuming animal products, and when having children, we're not only giving them food - we are giving them habits... 'patterns' that some people find it very hard to get away from later in life.

    Here's what I would have done if I would be in the kind of situation Rachael-Louise is. I would suggest that the kind of 'teasing' my partner seemed to be into should be avoided. Parents of small babies often lack sleep, don't have enough time for each other, are under various kinds of pressure, so doing or saying something which may trigger conflict would usually be an even less good idea than it would under other circumstances.

    I wouldn't have given my child animal products at all, both for ethical and health reasons. The official policy some countries now have is that if you can't give a baby mother's milk - give it formula and make sure it gets all the nutrients (B12) it needs - but stay away from cow's milk until it gets older (two years has been mentioned). And these recommendations don't come from vegan health professionals, bot from mainstream health advisors, hired my mainstream, government run councils etc. - people who actually recommend meat and dairy for older humans.

    If two people have two different ideas about parenting (or anything else), wouldn't the first step be to find out what they agree upon? A vegan and an omni both agree that it's OK to give kids plant based food. The omni also thinks "it's OK" to give his kid meat etc, but does he necessarily suggest that this is something that a child must have? If he knows something about nutrition, I don't think so. So unless the omni parent are against *not* giving babies milk/meat etc, I can't see why an omni father would have a problem with his partner feeding their child on a diet which doesn't include animal products.

    Forgetting ethics for a moment: if I like bananas and think they're good for kids (small babies love crushed bananas btw!) and my partner has a problem with our child eating bananas, I'll just skip giving our kid bananas unless some reliable research insist that babies just have to eat bananas. That's not even a compromise, it's just common sense and a way to stay out of unnecessary disagreements and conflict.

    So, RL, if your partner insists that 1) babies must have meat and dairy, and 2) he somehow can document that the now common knowledge about consuming animal products has no value... you certainly need to sort things out.

    The American Dietetic Association is the one of the world’s largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. They write: “It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes." They may, IMHO, not be quite up-to-date regarding the need for B12, because B12 is something it seems everybody needs to supplement with at some stage - due to a number of reasons that most likely have to do with environmental reasons, and not plants 'as such'. They do claim, however, that one may need to supplement (which of course is true for non-vegans as well).

    It would be hard for your partner, I guess, to prove ADAs thousands of nutrition professionals wrong. So - some kind of 'compromise' could be that he accepts that everything you make will be vegan based, as long as you pay attention to the nutrients vegans have to pay special attention to. They are different from the nutrients non-vegans often get too little of. Your part of the compromise could be that you acknowledge that he may have a different view than you (and The American Dietetic Association!) have, so if he comes back from a family visit and your child has been given non-vegan food, you won't start to fight about that.

    But the main thing here seems to be the major difference between thinking that it's "OK" to give babies animal products versus actually insisting that The American Dietetic Association are wrong and that babies need animal products.


    It all boils down to - as usual - what's important in life, and what's not. It seems that you both are important to each other, and that could bode well for the idea that he possibly won't insist that you should give your child something you are against giving it. It's probably easier and a lot more fun to have a good relationship with you than to prove The American Dietetic Association wrong anyway.


    And, if you use the 'banana approach' above and forget the vegan/non-vegan part for a little while, you may see that it's easier for him to accept you as you are - and your right not do anything which many vegans and non-vegans (for health reasons alone) are against doing - and which the baby certainly don't need that you do.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote khadagan View Post
    And if I were to supplement my baby or give milk and it couldn't be my own breastmilk I would put all the research in and decide what I would think would be the best and healthiest option for my baby, I would prefer a vegan option by far, but obviously not if I would compromise my child's health.
    So, are you saying you would give a baby cow's milk formula over soy formula?
    How can cow's milk be healthy for a baby? Cow's milk is meant for baby cows not baby humans. I think people are brainwashed into thinking that 'milk' and dairy is good for them when we vegans know that is patently not the case. I can't see how anyone on this forum would advocate giving a baby cow's milk. This is a VEGAN forum, not a vegetarian forum so I would think we would all be against a baby drinking cow's milk, wouldn't we?
    If it were the case that soy formula did indeed have too much glucose or whatever, I would still prefer to give a child that, rather than all the health harming ingredients that are in cow's milk.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    (Sandra, something seems to have gove wrong with your quote in your last post! )

    Of course we don't think giving a baby cow's milk is good.

    Being a minority, we have to deal with with the majority of the population's false idea that human babies need cow's milk. It will keep coming up for years, even now whan governments are warning parents about cow's milk.

    Looking at the whole picture, cow's milk "can' be healthy and unhealthy at the same time. It's definitely healthy for calves, and contains eg. B12 which we and our babies, in anti-bacterial times like these, may get too little of. But calves grow many times as fast as human babies, and providing feeding our kids with natural and unnatural growth hormones meant for another species with a much higher growth rate than us is definitely not a good idea (cell division/growth/cancer risk etc).

    If it were the case that soy formula did indeed have too much glucose or whatever, I would still prefer to give a child that, rather than all the health harming ingredients that are in cow's milk.
    There are many other alternatives. Home made rice milk (overcooked brown, organic rice), for instance. Soy can be quite heavy on a little child's (and some adults') digestive system.


    This is a VEGAN forum, not a vegetarian forum so I would think we would all be against a baby drinking cow's milk, wouldn't we?
    True, and if posts/members promote use of cow's milk in here, we'll move them over to the section for non-vegans...
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote Korn View Post
    (Sandra, something seems to have gove wrong with your quote in your last post! )





    There are many other alternatives. Home made rice milk (overcooked brown, organic rice), for instance. Soy can be quite heavy on a little child's (and some adults') digestive system.
    Thanks Korn, I've fixed that now.

    I agree too about there being many other vegan 'milk' alternatives which are more healthy than perhaps soy is. There is no reason why babies have to be fed with cow's milk at all.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote sandra View Post
    So, are you saying you would give a baby cow's milk formula over soy formula?
    How can cow's milk be healthy for a baby? Cow's milk is meant for baby cows not baby humans. I think people are brainwashed into thinking that 'milk' and dairy is good for them when we vegans know that is patently not the case. I can't see how anyone on this forum would advocate giving a baby cow's milk. This is a VEGAN forum, not a vegetarian forum so I would think we would all be against a baby drinking cow's milk, wouldn't we?
    If it were the case that soy formula did indeed have too much glucose or whatever, I would still prefer to give a child that, rather than all the health harming ingredients that are in cow's milk.
    I don't know if you read my post properly or any of the other posts that I put up in this thread, but I'm not advocating giving a child cow's milk! If I did I would not be on this forum and I wouldn't be vegan.

    One of the reasons I'm vegan is because of ethical reasons, another reason I'm vegan is because of health reasons. I'm always looking for the healthiest way of doing things that benefits everyone and I'm convinced that is a vegan lifestyle.

    About baby formula's, I stressed many times in my posts that I haven't done much research into it and it doesn't sound like you have either. For my baby I would chose what I would think would be best for baby. I very much doubt that would be cow's milk formula, but on the other hand like I said so many times now I heard some bad things about soy formula. I'll say it again though and I hope for the last time that I haven't done any research into soy milk formula or any other vegan alternatives for baby. I'm big on breastfeeding your baby and if needed using another mother's breastmilk for my baby as well should I need to. I never needed to.

    Should it be that soy formula would be harmful because of too much glucose or whatever I wouldn't give it. I'm not saying by this that cow's milk is the healthy option, because I think it isn't.

    And this is a vegan forum and being vegan, I thought this forum was open to people as well who aren't vegan, but aspiring to be or wanting to learn about it as long as they're obviously respectful to others here.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    " And if I were to supplement my baby or give milk and it couldn't be my own breastmilk I would put all the research in and decide what I would think would be the best and healthiest option for my baby, I would prefer a vegan option by far, but obviously not if I would compromise my child's health."


    Hi Khadagan, sorry I've had to quote you as above but the forum is running very slow for me lately and it is just too much hassle to quote normally.
    As you can see from what you said above you would prefer a vegan option but not if it compromised your child's health, I took from that you would give the child the non vegan option. If I am wrong in this I am sorry but you have to agree you were rather misleading in your statement.

    I am also sorry if I have appeared less than respectful..................it was not my intention.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  10. #60
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote khadagan View Post
    I thought this forum was open to people as well who aren't vegan, but aspiring to be or wanting to learn about it as long as they're obviously respectful to others here.
    Maybe some misunderstandings exist then - because non-vegans can only post in this section. I may need to find a way to make this more clear, I guess.

    There seem to be more skepticism from non-vegans about non-dairy formula than formula based on cow's milk. I wonder why, and also wonder if those who are worried about side effects of soy formula are equally concerned about the side effects of dairy based formula.

    What if it was found that eg. eating lamb's brains, dog's eyes, or pigs ears would eg. strengthen humans immune system, or make us live a little longer than we otherwise would have lived? Would *not* eating lamb's brains then be considered as a example of 'compromising one's health'?

    Would one see not eating lamb's brains as something which led to having one's life shortened, and therefore something which could be justified based on the same idea that some of the nutrients which can be found in cow's milk could be beneficial for some people?

    And what would, in the above scenario, be the difference between eating lamb's brains and drinking cow's milk - from an ethical point of view? Both these 'products' means than an animal's child needs to be killed.

    To me the answer seems quite simple. I wouldn't kill a calf and take it's mothers milk to improve my health. I wouldn't eat lamb's brains either, even if someone would tell me that this would mean that I'd live longer.

    So, regarding "I would prefer a vegan option by far, but obviously not if I would compromise my child's health"... First of all, there are more warnings against giving babies cow's milk than recommendations, so it's not an issue. Even if we would live in a society where all kinds of body parts from various animals commonly were used to improve health, live longer etc, meaning that those things were considered 'normal', I still wouldn't use them.

    Just like I would feel that it was wrong if someone kept me in captivity or killed me to improve their health, I see killing an innocent living being in order to improve my heath or prolong my life as something which definitely is on the wrong side of right and wrong.

    Babies don't need cow's milk, so this isn't even an issue. No animals drink milk from other species. And we know that milk, as such, doesn't float around in a babies body; the milk is broken down to nutrients (etc), and these are having an effect on our bodies. Therefore, the only good solution to your imaginary dilemma, Khadagan (about compromising a babies health), would IMO be to find out which nutrients in cow's milk that was beneficial for a babies, and use a vegan source of that nutrient.

    Non-humans animals are in many ways different from humans, but vegans don't think that they exist as 'products' we can use if they are beneficial for us. That's why I think your own answer to your imaginary dilemma can make some vegan wonder if you are vegan or not.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Thank you for your apology Sandra, but I wasn't being misleading, I think I'm being very clear. I'm not saying I would use soy milk formula or cows milk formula either, because I dont know what I would do. I breastfed my daughter, I'm expecting a baby in September and I'm planning on doing the same again. If I can't for whatever reason I'll be supplementing or giving other mothers milk if this would be possible. If that wouldn't be possible and if I need to find an alternative I'll do all the research into the matter and look for what I would think would be a good alternative, at this time I wouldn't know what that is and I'll leave it at that. I hope it's clear to you now, this is all I want to say about this specific topic. And as usual it's fine if we would disagree, I have no problem with that

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    It's clear that you might consider a non vegan option.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    It seems to me that what she's is saying is that if she would find research on this topic and come to the conclusion that it wasn't possible to provide a baby with the nutrients it needs to remain healthy, she would - because she wouldn't compromise the babies health (who wants that anyway?) go for a non-vegan solution... and therefore not be a vegan. I see it more like a "I don't know enough about this yet" than a claim about being vegan and still use animal products.

    If I would believe that feeding my kids on a vegan diet would compromise their health, I certainly wouldn't have been giving them a vegan diet either (meaning: I wouldn't have been a vegan).

    But let's keep this simple: If khadagan and Rachael-Louise aren't sure if they are vegans, or know that they aren' vegans, or know that they aren't vegans, we'll just change their account types. This forum welcomes non-vegan viewpoints (in a section dedicated to such treads). NB: Logged in, vegan members won't even see these threads unless they actively join the "Vegan/Non-vegan Discussion" permission.

    We can't have a forum which as a policy saying that non-vegans are welcome to discuss with us in a special section of the forum, and then be nasty with them if they use that section.

    The solution is simple: 1) Leave the so called "permission group" which lets you see discussions with people who have non-vegan viewpoints, and 2) Let me know if you aren't a vegan or see that others here aren't vegans, and I'll just change your/their account time.

    If non-vegans can't have decent communication with non-vegans, they likelihood that they'll ever go vegan will decrease. Most people aren't vegan, and to become annoyed over ninetysomething percent of all human's viewpoint is just a waste of energy.

    It's better to ignore these viewpoints or communicate with these people than to participate in a discussion with them and get upset or nasty.

    In other words; if you've had enough of non-vegans' viewpoints and want to yell about it... don't do it here.

    Whatever Rachael-Louise and khadagan consider themselves, I'll move this thread over to the section where non-vegans can participate, because the topic we discuss here doesn't seem to be a topic most vegans would have much interest in.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    I really don't see how by doing research you could NOT find a healthy vegan alternative so therefore the need to NOT be vegan because of health reasons would not arise.

    Anyway, I think you are right............maybe I should leave the non-vegan discussions to those more even tempered on the forum. As I said in my private message to you, I am getting on a bit and as I get older I am getting less and less tolerant of non-vegan views.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    If you're getting less tolerant with non-vegan views, I can't see any reason whatsoever for you to subscribe to the subforum where non-vegans are allowed to post their viewpoints.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Although to be fair to me, this thread was originially in the vegan area of the forum not the non-vegan area wasn't it?
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    That's true. But a problem with a thread having been posted in the wrong part of the forum is less severe than discussions which ends in various degrees if nastiness. The same goes, IMO, for members who may not be vegans (yet?), but who have had the impression that they can still post in all parts of the forum. Unlike a messages which pretty much claim that another member has "no business having children" (not posted by you, Sandra), the first mentioned issues are minor, practical problems, and possible only a result of not having enough clear info about where non-vegans can post.

    I know that at least four members felt what Cobweb's posted was insensitive - it would have much simpler if she just stated that posts/members who aren't vegans have a special area on this forum.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    As the postings to this thread now seem to have stopped, can I send my good wishes to all the people who have recently had, or are shortly to have, a baby.

    Leedsveg

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Me too..............all the very best to everyone!
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  20. #70
    Minka
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Sorry, I should have read the rest of the thread before replying... my bad :X

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    Question Anyone raising vegan kids?

    I have just started my baby on solids.. now I'm trying to convince my boyfriend (who lives off of hot dogs) to raise him vegan. I strongly believe that eating animals is wrong, and that a vegan lifestyle is healthier, and I want my son to be raised with my beliefs until he is old enough to have his own. My boyfriend seems to think that if he doesn't eat meat he will be made fun of at school.. has this happened to anyone's kids? I'm also concerned about what I will tell him when he asks "how come daddy can drink milk but I can't?" or "how come my friends all eat meat but we don't?"
    Anyone have any advice for me?
    Last edited by Korn; May 12th, 2012 at 09:07 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Tell him the truth, milk is only for babies but daddy has an unhealthy addiction to it like many people - maybe call upon some of the things mentioned here: http://challengeoppression.com/2010/...yours-to-take/

    Deciding how to raise your kids based on what might be said to them at school is ridiculous, most children will be picked on at some time or other for something and you can't protect them - would you dye your child's hair if they were ginger? That said kids are generally so self absorbed that they wouldn't even notice what your child eats, I was vegetarian from the age of 10 and only ever had issues with teachers about, it never other children.

    I really don't think that it's a good idea to set an example of conformity over personal belief right from the start, also what would you say if he asked you why mommy doesn't drink milk?

    If your boyfriend doubts the safety of a vegan diet for a child, or anyone for that matter, maybe you should direct him to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028 - unless of course he thinks that old wives tales and the ramblings of old doctors that never attended a nutrition course are a more valid source than thousands of registered dietitians.

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    That has got to be tough. I don't have children, but am inspired by all the parents who are trying to teach their kids to love and respect all living things. It sounds like your hubby has quite the sense of humor. I wish you the best on sticking to your comprimise and teaching your child that not everyone always agrees. Love, Peace, and Candy Grease.

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    My husband sometimes eats meat but not the "cool" but the transformed (nuggets, Chinese vapors etc.)
    My children are vegetarians Because at school being vegan is not possible.

    It goes well and I hope that my children will eventually vegans

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Hi Valentine, is there any chance you could give your children vegan packed lunches to take to school or is that not possible?
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  26. #76
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Hi sandra ^^
    Is not possible in France.
    The French government requires children to eat meat they are Muslims (non-halal meat because otherwise they have a meat other than pork), vegetarians and vegans or just a kid who does not want to.
    The packed lunches are allowed only for allergic after seeing a doctor with exams and blood.
    My children are in one of the rare city not to accept meat / fish to my children and even offer a vegetables only if the meat is mixed with vegetables.
    They propose an egg to kosher and Muslims but it is very rare in France.
    In France should not say that our children are vegan risk that the government does not deny us our children ...

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm sorry for my english translated of google....
    Last edited by Valentine; Aug 27th, 2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Quote Valentine View Post
    ... The packed lunches are allowed only for allergic after seeing a doctor with exams and blood. ...
    The packed lunches rule probably only applies when eating in the canteen? Can't they eat a packed lunch elsewhere?

  28. #78
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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    When I worked at a French primary school all the children had to eat together in the canteen and they all had to eat the same 3 course largely meat and dairy based meal and so much was wasted I brought a
    pack lunch and went on a walk away from the school to eat it so I didn't have to watch all thebits of bodies thrown in the bin.

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    Default Re: Raising a baby vegetarian when the dad really is not on board

    Valentine, you might claim that your children (and you) are believers in the JAIN religion.
    I guess that should qualify

    Best regards,
    Andy

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