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Thread: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

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    BunkyVegan's Avatar
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    Default Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I was wondering how everyone felt about using companion animals in therapy programs? I'm volunteering at a stable that has a horseback riding program for children with mental and physical disabilities. The horses are all retired racehorses or otherwise adopted (ie. not bred for the program), and live out their full lives on the farm even after they are too old to participate in the program. The sessions are once or sometimes twice a day for about 3 hours, and consists of being groomed and tacked, visiting with the kids and then being rode for an hour by the kids (they walk around the corral with a volunteer on each side of the horse to ensure the safety of the child and the horse). They spend the rest of their day out in the pasture. The riding has a lot of psychological benefits for the kids and also reduces certain symptoms of their illness like strengthening muscles or reducing stiffness, and apparently helps reduce seizures as well. I volunteered here before I became a vegan, and I'm going back this fall, but I still feel conflicted about the idea because they are making a profit off of the horses work (although most of the money goes into caring for the horses I think, since most of the staff are volunteers).

    I feel there is a difference between a program like this and something like seeing eye dogs (which can be a very unpleasant life for the dog from what I've heard, because there is not much regulation once the dogs are placed in their homes).

    What do you all think?? And have any of you ever participated in a program like this or used one of your own pets for therapy, like where you visit hospitals or retirement homes with your dog?
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

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    Fervent vegan DiaShel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    While I like the idea of bringing your dog to visit with people how are very elderly or sick, I do not like the situation that you've suggested. I could never support horse riding for any reason.
    "To reduce suffering means to reduce the amount of ignorance, the basic affliction with us." -Thich Nhat Hanh

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    BunkyVegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I shouldn't have compared it to the dog therapy because an animal being ridden isn't the same as an animal having a social visit. I'm wondering if I'm trying to justify it to myself because it was a dream of mine before I became a vegan to integrate animal therapy into my work after grad school. The horses seemed to enjoy it, but again it could be me seeing what I want to see. I don't know if I should go back, maybe I should do the visiting program through the hospital instead and take my brothers dog.
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

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    Making changes Est's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I have no problem with horse riding, and thoroughly approve of assisted therapy programmes. In my experience of visiting/watching programmes such as Riding for the Disabled and various therapy horse camps, the standard of care is excellent and not only do the children have a great time, but the horses enjoy it too. Horses show every feeling through their body language, so you can check for yourself if they are happy. I realise the whole idea of horse riding links in to a much bigger underlying vegan debate about what constitutes use/exploitation of animals, and to what extent we should have contact with them. You have to decide for yourself where you come on the continuum of opinion. Make that decision on the basis of what *you* think, not what you think a vegan *should* think, if that makes sense. That way, whatever you decide, it will definitely be in line with your values and there'll be fewer doubts or indecision about having made that choice.
    (Yes, I'm a horse owner/rider... and my dog is a pet, not a companion animal, because I hate using 7 syllables where 1 will do )
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    BunkyVegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Est View Post
    and my dog is a pet, not a companion animal, because I hate using 7 syllables where 1 will do
    That's funny! lol I try to use 'companion animal' but half the time I forget. It feels like 'pet' has a negative connotation, but I guess like anything else it depends on the person using the word and what they mean by it.
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Est View Post
    ... Horses show every feeling through their body language, so you can check for yourself if they are happy. ...
    That is just our interpretation. They are bred in captivity, what is 'feeling happy' when you never experienced the freedom you should be entitled to.



    On topic:

    Are these horses not only used because we lack social structure to care for people with special needs. I'm sure if someone or a group of people played with these kids, entertained them, put them on moving contraptions of some sort, they could have all the benefits that are acclaimed to putting them on horses. Horses are just easy and cheap to use.

    Another thing that comes to mind is the gear that is used. Leather belts, straps, saddles... strapping dead cow to a captive horse poses issues as well. There are non-leather alternatives from what I get but they might be a) more expensive b) deemed not as good c) not widespread available d) not widely known.

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    Making changes Est's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    That is just our interpretation. They are bred in captivity, what is 'feeling happy' when you never experienced the freedom you should be entitled to.
    Oh Lord. I'm sure if I could give up everything, move to the Bahamas and live on the beach, I'd reach a hitherto-unknown level of happiness. Until then, within the strictures of my everyday life, I'm happy. So is my horse. I can't STAND hypothetical claptrap. It's like the whole, "if you were starving on a desert island..." question. Utterly pointless.

    Edit: Re the leather/synthetic debate, all my tack is synthetic apart from a bridle which I bought a long time before becoming vegan. Synthetic tack is widely available, and cheaper than leather. Unfortunately there is some snobbery in the horse world as leather is perceived as being better quality. It's a very traditional world. Luckily this point of view is changing - we'll get there one day!
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Est View Post
    Oh Lord. I'm sure if I could give up everything, move to the Bahamas and live on the beach, I'd reach a hitherto-unknown level of happiness. Until then, within the strictures of my everyday life, I'm happy. So is my horse. I can't STAND hypothetical claptrap. It's like the whole, "if you were starving on a desert island..." question. Utterly pointless.
    Yes not breeding horses is far fetched.

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    queerveganedge Elli's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I don't really understand how one can support the use of animals for human benefit. I mean, don't we all agree on this forum that animals are not ours to use?

    I guess that the dogs living with me (they're not my pets, I see them more like roommates, they don't belong to me, they're their own persons) are "somehow" happy because they have a shelter and food everyday, but they were not given the choice so all I can do is... guess and hope. I wouldn't assert that they are happy.

    I strongly support people who rescue horses but why ride them? The horse can have fun running on their own.
    Me. My fight. My problem... Tonight.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Est View Post
    I can't STAND hypothetical claptrap. It's like the whole, "if you were starving on a desert island..." question. Utterly pointless.
    I can see where you're coming from Est, but one person's hypothetical can sometimes be another person's reality. And looking at what may be seen as a far-fetched hypothetical case, can help towards having consistent views. (You can bet that if our views are inconsistent, omnis will seize on this as an excuse for why they don't need to examine and change their behaviour.)

    lv

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I don't agree with breeding more horses to be ridden, but looking at these "therapy" horses which are ex race horses, what would happen to them otherwise?

    Also, I don't know much about horses but as these are domesticated and not wild horses it seems possible they enjoy interacting and playing with the children, the same way some dogs seem to. So it doesn't seem like an open-and-shut case to me.

    LV, FWIW I see as many complaints about vegans being strident and inflexible as as I do about them being inconsistent, so we probably can't win on that one

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    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote harpy View Post
    LV, FWIW I see as many complaints about vegans being strident and inflexible as as I do about them being inconsistent, so we probably can't win on that one
    And they say that we are judgemental as well.

    Leedsveg

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    Are these horses not only used because we lack social structure to care for people with special needs. I'm sure if someone or a group of people played with these kids, entertained them, put them on moving contraptions of some sort, they could have all the benefits that are acclaimed to putting them on horses. Horses are just easy and cheap to use.
    I don't think most of the kids are lacking in terms of socialization, care, entertainment, etc.. although I don't know what their home environments are like, only that they do live at home with their families and not in an institution. And horses require a lot of (very expensive) care, so I don't think this program is a cheap alternative to some other form of therapy. The benefits of the program are partly social, which could presumably be obtained without the use of animals. But the real benefit is from the contact with the animals and the feeling of accomplishment for the child, as well as a reduction in thier symptoms. We know that spending time with a cat or dog has been proven to have a therapeutic effect in terms of reducing stress, lowering blood pressure, etc. The same goes with horses, except for these kids in particular it seems to be particularly beneficial. The kids with muscular disorders ride bareback, and the warmth and movement of the horse helps with their symptoms. I've also talked to two of the parents of autistic children and both said that their condition improved dramatically after they started riding, they became more open and their communication improved. And for most of the kids riding is the highlight of their week, they really feel a sense of accomplishment and they relate to the horses and find a non-judgemental friend in their horse.

    As far as whether the horses enjoy it, I'm not an expert on their body language, but I do know that when we call them to come into the barn they come willingly. I've never seen anyone have to go into the pasture to 'collect' their horse. Also, they don't recieve any food rewards during the session; there's a special bowl for giving them treats and we can only give them in the pasture or over the fence, so that the horses don't associate the session or peoples hands with food (to prevent them from accidentally biting one of the kids).

    Thanks for all your responses, you've all been very helpful.

    Edit: One of the things that made me want to volunteer there in the first place was that they adopt horses that need homes, and if it turns out the horse is not suited for the program (ie. they are unpredictable or spook easily), they still keep the horse or find another home for them. They have just as many horses that are not involved in the program for this reason or because they are older horses that have 'retired'. So the riding program seems to be a side-project on an existing horse farm where the horses aren't used for any other purpose.
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote BunkyVegan View Post
    As far as whether the horses enjoy it, I'm not an expert on their body language, but I do know that when we call them to come into the barn they come willingly. I've never seen anyone have to go into the pasture to 'collect' their horse. Also, they don't recieve any food rewards during the session; there's a special bowl for giving them treats and we can only give them in the pasture or over the fence, so that the horses don't associate the session or peoples hands with food (to prevent them from accidentally biting one of the kids).
    The horses would have been trained and conditioned from an early age. I'm sure if they displayed free will and resistance in the past there would have been consequences for them [harsh talk, corrections with a whip, keep doing the exercise until they comply, let's only hope no worse]. So I don't think them coming 'willingly' now is a good criteria to determine if they enjoy it.

    We have horsedrawn carriages here showing tourists arround. From body language of the horse one could think the horses like to pull the carriage. Some have a really proud posture but then again bottlenose dolphins always have a smile on their face when they do tricks. And every year we have ponies at the funfair taking kids on their back. They just walk their rounds without riotting or throwing kids of their back or other types of visual complaining. If your will has been broken from early on and/or you never knew anything else who's to say you simply didn't give up and are just undergoing it.

    Using horses to ride is not much different than having animals perform at a circus or at the aquarium. Sure a horse has more space in general than the elephant or tiger in his/her trailer. And sure the horses (except maybe the ones doing competition) don't travel arround as much.... but is being ridden less a trick than jumping through a hoop or sitting on your four ton ass with your front legs in the air?

    There is so much abuse from us towards every species we domesticated that finding a few individuals that seem to be having a good life is no justification to what we are doing.
    Last edited by CoolCat; Aug 21st, 2011 at 10:38 PM. Reason: Note that this was posted/written before the edit of BunkyVegan's post.

  15. #15
    hedge
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I don't have a problem with horse riding.
    Having spent time around children and adults with mental and physical disabilities and witnessing first hand how much they get out of this kind of therapy with animals can never be considered anything less that AWESOME!!!

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    BunkyVegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    There is so much abuse from us towards every species we domesticated that finding a few individuals that seem to be having a good life is no justification to what we are doing.
    I see what you mean, and that is why I am conflicted about the idea. It can be a slippery slope when you start justifying the use of animals in any way. I don't think that any of the other uses of animals you mentioned are okay by any means.

    Since the horses are adopted and were previously trained for riding I have no idea what that process involved, but I imagine that some or most of them were trained using some degree force. Once they have been adopted there isn't much training that goes on, they mostly just select the horses with the calmest disposition for the program. When they are being ridden there aren't any reins, and they are led by a volunteer. There are also precautions that protect the horses, like special stirrups for the kids who have uncontrolled movements so they don't end up kicking the horse, and the kids wear a belt with a handle on each side so the side-walking volunteers can support them.

    So, I guess the part I struggle with is whether they are being made to work, or being 'used' in an inappropriate way when they are ridden. Because I fully support the therapy programs using dogs or cats where there are private citizens who's dog or cat has a great disposition, so they volunteer to visit hospitals, schools, even prisons... but not when the animals are being bred for the program or being trained to work or do tricks. It seems to me that these programs result in respect for the animals rather than objectifying them, if that makes sense. It benefits the people involved and also helps to change the way we view animals - as friends rather than 'things'.

    Quote Est View Post
    You have to decide for yourself where you come on the continuum of opinion. Make that decision on the basis of what *you* think, not what you think a vegan *should* think, if that makes sense. That way, whatever you decide, it will definitely be in line with your values and there'll be fewer doubts or indecision about having made that choice.
    I'm late to reply to this specific point, but that is really great advice. Sometimes that can be hard to do because I don't trust myself to make the right decision, since I spent most of my life eating meat and justifying the use of animals in many ways.
    It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions ~ Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Elli View Post
    I don't really understand how one can support the use of animals for human benefit. I mean, don't we all agree on this forum that animals are not ours to use?
    the 'use' word is very emotive and has all sorts of connotations.

    one can argue that riding lessons for mentally or physically disabled people is 'using' the horse for the physical or emotional benefit of the human rider. i think we can use the word 'use' to suit our own points of view.

    for example; what do we think about 'using' the sanctuary animals at hillside, or fiona oakes place etc to advertise the work they are doing helping them, which needs to raise money. are they being used in advertising?

    is the difference that snaps of animals at rest and peaceful is different to taking an animal to a centre or having groups of people come specifically to pet or ride/stroke an animal?

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    In that sense 'use' is very broad. I think the discussion in this thread has been about directing/manipulating/forcing the actions of the animals involve. As in "making them work for us". If you want to discuss "use" that would probably mean a whole new thread because it would be off-topic to this one.



    Even without making promotional snapshots of the animals doing their own thing, one could argue that simply caring for the animals at the sancuary makes one feel good/better about themselfs. So you would "use" them for your own benefit by just providing a home for them.

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I always feel suspicious of activities involving animals where there is a profit motive because the needs of the animals tend to come second. However I don't necessarily feel that something is wrong just because what an animal does is in some way of "use" to a human, unless there's evidence that it is disagreeable to the animal of course. (I suspect that's heresy in some vegan circles, but it's what I think.)

    There are a range of symbiotic relationships in nature, and there's no reason why those shouldn't exist between humans and other animals, IMO.

  20. #20
    hedge
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote harpy View Post
    I don't necessarily feel that something is wrong just because what an animal does is in some way of "use" to a human
    Me either. If we're gonna let this topic go in that direction now's a good time to bring up search and rescue dogs or sniffer dogs.

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    I also happen to agree. I feel it is easy to idealize animals living in the wild as being in their perfect environment, and that their own species are their perfect companions. However, other species often live with each other, and benefit from each others company. They also regularly interact with each other, and perhaps they enjoy each others company. Why should the relationships between humans and animals be any different. I'm not saying that human beings don't exploit animals at times, or take advantage of them sometimes either, yet that does not mean that all relationships between humans and animals have to be that way. I believe in the bonds that can form between a person and an animal, and that animals can benefit from and enjoy the time they spend with humans. Whether humans benefit from that time as well is not the relevant point in my opinion. What matters is that the animals are treated with dignity and respect, and that they do not suffer from the relationship.

    As for therapy animals, read this article and see what you think.

    http://nyti.ms/xdPq2F

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    Mordechai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote harpy View Post
    I always feel suspicious of activities involving animals where there is a profit motive because the needs of the animals tend to come second. However I don't necessarily feel that something is wrong just because what an animal does is in some way of "use" to a human, unless there's evidence that it is disagreeable to the animal of course. (I suspect that's heresy in some vegan circles, but it's what I think.)

    There are a range of symbiotic relationships in nature, and there's no reason why those shouldn't exist between humans and other animals, IMO.
    This immediately brought to mind the concept of 'paying' the horse. Now money wouldn't quite work would it, but what if you let them off in the wild? If they return could we not say they are making the choice to do so? So after each day of the horse 'working' he has the choice whether it is something they wish to return and do. Now this would take quite and effort, and shouldn't a relationship be fair?
    I trust this won't cause controversy, but healthy debate and education.

    Namaste

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Quote Mordechai View Post
    This immediately brought to mind the concept of 'paying' the horse. Now money wouldn't quite work would it, but what if you let them off in the wild? If they return could we not say they are making the choice to do so? So after each day of the horse 'working' he has the choice whether it is something they wish to return and do. Now this would take quite and effort, and shouldn't a relationship be fair?
    I trust this won't cause controversy, but healthy debate and education.

    Namaste
    Uh?!?

    I don't see how you can have a healthy debate and education about this. There is no justification for breeding horses in captivity to begin with. Giving them the 'choice' to leave the only home they ever known and to wander off to a place they know nothing about and have no affiliation with isn't really well balanced. And I don't see how "the better of two things" could be justification for exploitation. A 6yr old that makes shoes all day so they and the family can eat that day returns to the factory in the morning as well.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    Purely hypothetical CoolCat, read into it what you will, there is no intent for a painful response here.
    If healthy debate can't be seen then it won't be had! But once we make this realization that it is 'difficult' maybe then we can work towards making it easy by learning!

    Now we have reached a deeper issue of breeding horses for this purpose, one could say that the intent is to use the animal, although are we breeding horses for this purpose? Bunky adopted said horses.

    Harpy aforementioned
    I don't agree with breeding more horses to be ridden, but looking at these "therapy" horses which are ex race horses, what would happen to them otherwise

    we in a way are talking about animal rehabilitation? Just like a person whom has been risen to be abused, could be introduced into a peaceful environment with peaceful interaction with humans to then have atleast the option for wild re-intergration, although if this is not practical, what would you suggest? What would be applicable to this situation? As these horses are already born and in the world, functioning with humans.
    As for the child labour, does the issue lay with the child, family, factory, government, consumer or global materialism/egoism?

    Thank you CoolCat, may we both gain insight,
    namaste

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I have no issue with adopting animals that are already here, for most of them it's the best option. But adopting an animal doesn't give us the right to (continue) exploiting him/her. If it isn't in the animals best interest but ours than we are demanding something from an animal that isn't warranted. We can't demand of an animal to work for his/her keep when we are the ones that bred him/her, we already are responsible for their keep ourselves because of that.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    What of the intent? If the intent behind said action was for the establishment of symbiosis between previously abused horse and previous abused person. This may be touching on a spiritual matter...
    Are symbiotic relationships with animals acceptable?
    And we as a species certainly are responsible for the injustice.
    Does this count as exploitation, lets discuss further...
    A horse cannot say No, lets not do that, it may not be fair to say 'if a human was mute' could we interpret their stance via body language? Unfortunately we cannot escape the inevitable bias our egos create, what I deem comfortable and what einstein feels is comfortable will be different.

    So where is there a unanimous agreement? That everything in this world truly desires freedom? or is it love? or is it peace? or comfort? or all of the above? Maybe we should create a new word... frelovpea
    and how can we establish that the horse is experiencing joy or discomfort or frelovepea?

    If we take into account the natural world of horses, do we see variety with each specie in each region, similar to humans? And does this contextual existence change our opinion? Of course, we are completely bias due to our upbringing, diet, religion, sex, etc etc etc, this is what constitutes ones ego.

    What we have to discern, is how we can have frelovpea in the outside world, and the only 'lense' we have to look through is a tool shaped by our own values morales and beliefs.

    One could say separate from the 'nature' of humans which would be that residual self, the memory bank, realize the root desire to feel frelovpea (does anyone not want to be completely surrounded and feeling bliss/peace inside?).

    For example, look at an addiction, we experience stress when not getting a fix. We chase the fix, similarly if we are sitting down for too long, we wish to move, we are constantly seeking to be more comfortable, more secure and etc.

    We are in a way both cursed and blessed with this situation, we think the world is all about us, but once we realized the total symbiosis that it is all one movement, only then can we experience peace.

    Then, all pain is caused by me, at the same time as bliss. For example,
    I go to watch a comedian perform, my values morales and beliefs will dictate whether I do or do not like said comedian. If I do like the comedian, it works within the boundaries of said convictions or even solidifies them or if its challenges them I feel 'out of place' as now there is a point of difference, the comedian and I are different as I think this way and he thinks that way. I no longer feel whole with the universe as I've been able to differentiate between me and them.
    Is it the performance that could be called 'good' or 'bad' when it is entirely up to my interpretation of said performance?

    ... less there be more digression, one should consider at what point something achieves happiness, and truly how we interpret that happiness.

    I once knew a parent who would only be happy if their child became a successful business man, beyond all else this is what mattered, sure enough the child did not wish the same fate, he wanted to see the parent out-of-business, retired!
    After much debate over who was right and who was wrong,
    they both settled with, well, whatever makes you happy, will make me happy.
    They only came to this conclusion, once the child had turned a hobbie into a business, and was happy with what they was doing.
    and the parent worked less and was happy to spend time with the child.

    If the intent is to not cause harm, but 'oooooooze' happiness and peace, frelovpea! into the world, is that alone enough to make it happen? When every desire, thought, activity is scrutinized for this purpose. One pointed focus towards peace.

    Maybe? Left with more questions than answers...

    namaste
    Last edited by Mordechai; Feb 9th, 2012 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    I have seen many threads go off topic but you win the price.

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    Default Re: Thoughts on animal-assisted therapy

    well, its relative if you look at how your perspective shapes your reality.
    What one person deems is cruel and what another deems as cruel will be different maybe even in the smallest part.
    From where I am at, it is easy to say, humans should be completely self-reliant from other species, accepting that nature has its own balances and it is a daily thrive to not upset that balance.
    If Bunky's true desire is to not cause harm and exploit the animals, and thats his true focus, it won't manifest as such.

    Namaste

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