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Thread: Vegan New York

  1. #151
    Enchantress's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Oh?

    A. - "Bob, this bentonite clay we use for fining looks like it's about had it."

    B. - "True, let's break out the isinglass for tomorrow's batch. It's not like we'd have to change the labeling or anything. It's still the same batch of wine and year."
    I doubt that happens, I would assume winemakers use the same fining material for all bottles to keep the quality consistent. But, even if it does, by the time the bottles are on the shelf all the wine from that years batch would have been fined.

  2. #152
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Enchantress, although I signed up, I am unable to access the on-line version of the "Animal Free Shopper" because when I attempt to the system blocks me and says," Unauthorized/Unable to access due to computer server in some other country/ not UK"

    Might you please do me a favor and tell me one of these California/US wines they've certified?

    Thanks.

    Edit to add: I've just tried again and successfully got on for the first time! All the California made wines seem to be supermarket brands we don't have here: The Co-operative, Asda, and Waitrose. I did a search on "California" and it states "Results for california returned 17 entries of which 1 have a Vegan ® trademark " yet I don't see the green flower symbol next to any of them? [Not that I could easily buy any of these short of importing them from one of your supermarkets.]

    Thanks though.

  3. #153
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I beg to differ. There are none. That is to say there are no established name brand American or Canadian beer manufacturers which announce by label or website that their product is promised to be vegan, nor is there any outside vegan certification organization such as the Vegan Society UK which certifies American or Canadian breweries.

    Thank you for the Barnivore link, which I've seen before.
    You are using the word announcing as to shout from the rooftops ''we're vegan'' no you have to contact companies and ask them. That is how everyone else has to do it. For a company to suddenly change from Bentonite to fining's is a very costly and expensive thing to do. The whole fermenting and brewing system has to be cleaned completely and it can shut production for days.
    Most companies are able to know how much beer, cider and wine they are making by the amounts of ingredients they have to start with. By doing this they are able to work out how much Bentonite to buy to clarify it as it is cheaper to buy things in bulk sometimes.
    Changing from Fining's to Bentonite can change the whole essence and taste of a beer and to suddenly change from one to another would make the quality differ. Fosters and Carling get away with chucking occasional fining's in because they are p**swater and have no flavour to ruin.

    The US does need a vegan society too, start one or ask other Canadians and US vf beer fans to contact a proportion of the breweries themselves.

    The UK vegan society does ask US brew companies whether they are vegan or not and report this information back. Samual Adams is one that consistantly reply to UK vegan society questions and are updated on Barnivore as vegan 5 nours ago. That is quite an update really.

  4. #154
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    For a company to suddenly change from Bentonite to fining's is a very costly and expensive thing to do. The whole fermenting and brewing system has to be cleaned completely and it can shut production for days.
    And yet as you mentioned we know for a fact some do switch fining agents such as Fosters did recently.

    Bentonite is a fining agent, BTW, although it is a vegan one.

    Fosters and Carling get away with chucking occasional fining's in because they are p**swater and have no flavour to ruin.
    Same could be said of all American beers, no? [Just joking. I can say that because I am an American, BTW, I never would have cracked such a nationalistic joke of another country, that is.]

    The UK vegan society does ask US brew companies whether they are vegan or not and report this information back. Samual Adams is one...
    A search of the Animal Free Shopper for Samuel Adams came up empty. Might you mean Samuel Smith, from your country?

    Speaking of Sam Adams, from their FAQ website:

    Are Samuel Adams® beers vegan?
    The Samuel Adams brewers do not use any animal products in the beer.


    None in the beer but what about to filter it? Also I guess the honey they use in their Honey Porter and Cherry Wheat must be some new kind made from petroleum! Considering whoever wrote this web page doesn't know bees are animals, I kind of doubt they'd even know what isinglass is. I certainly didn't before becoming a vegan, I only knew of it as a form of mica (mineral).

    Of the 267 beers listed at VS/UK I did see two I think of as American, Michelob and Budweiser, unfortunately I drink neither, and know some of theirs have honey right in the name also.

  5. #155
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    For anyone who might care to know, that information [whether wines are vegan] is not nearly as readily available to American vegans (or American vegan restaurants) for several reasons: . . .


    Above I listed all the other places I've eaten at (this trip and previously) and all of them can tell me (and 99% have it marked on the menu) which wines are suitable for vegans. In all those vegetarian eateries the wines which aren't marked as vegan are stated to be vegetarian.

    So really it cannot be as hard as you say to find this stuff out Mahk.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  6. #156
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    So really it cannot be as hard as you say to find this stuff out Mahk.
    Actually I said:
    Quote Mahk View Post
    ...that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans (or American vegan restaurants) for several reasons...
    I never said it was impossible, just much harder to ascertain.

    We don't have seven different supermarkets like :
    ASDA, Co-Op, M&S, Sainsburys, Somerfield, Tesco, or Waitrose all of which supply free prepared detailed lists of vegetarian and vegan wines and beers options. We have in fact none.

    We don't have a single name brand of US beer that labels their product with the word "vegan" either on the label or their website.

    We don't have a comparable watchdog/ monitoring/ certification organization looking out for us such as the Vegan Society, UK which releases an annually updated list of (currently) 267 readily available vegan beers in the UK market, 58 with green sunflower symbol certification stamps or 1507 readily available vegan wines, 190 of which having green sunflower symbol certification. Only a handful of these are coincidentally available here in the US market and we have no guarantee their brewery methods are identical for our US distributed versions.

    Since veganism isn't as well respected here in the US we don't have as candid email responses from companies when we do privately contact them and even when we do get a response the answer can be considered transitory at best since their selection of fining agents has nothing to do with having to maintain a "vegan status"; after all not a single one has claimed to be vegan in the first place [with beer at least] so they might switch at any time for any reason as did Fosters recently and also St. Peters Brewery:

    "... brewers change the ways in which they brew their beer. A case in point is that St Peter’s Brewery (Suffolk), a brand of beers to be found on many UK supermarket shelves, has recently started fining with isinglass all its beers. When Linda McCartney foods switched the ingredients of their vegetarian sausages away from solely vegan, they advertised the switch with the word “improved” on the box – a warning bell for all vegans. Brewers do not advertise changes either to ingredients or to conditioning method. Until recently, St Peter’s classed (although never labeled) some of its beers as suitable for vegans. Information is only any good if it is up-to-date."

    Source.

    You might want to ask these restaurants their source of data. If they respond that they are going by Barnivore (as I know one veg*n restaurant near me states they do on their menu), you are taking a big chance. Barnivore data is completely unsubstantiated and merely average Joes, nobodies, writing in claiming to have received email responses from various companies. If someone types in "I emailed Burger King and they told me their Whopper with cheese is vegan", does that prove that it is?

    If any of you are of the mind that none of the reasons I've given would in any way make it harder to determine the vegan status of beer or wine when shopping here in the US, that's fine, I'm just stating my opinion, that's all. I have no idea why me mentioning "It's harder over here." has snowballed into such a ruckus. I never said, "impossible".

  7. #157
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    I never said it was impossible, just much harder to ascertain. . . . I have no idea why me mentioning "It's harder over here." has snowballed into such a ruckus. I never said, "impossible".


    And actually I said:
    Quote Marrers View Post
    So really it cannot be as hard as you say to find this stuff out Mahk.
    I did not say that you said it was "impossible", I said it cannot be "as hard" as you say. I have no idea why you have read that differently.

    I don't think there has been a 'ruckus'. It seems to me (just my opinion) that whenever anyone disputes anything you say, in many threads I've read, you turn it into an epic debate to prove your point. I'm not interested in doing that so this is my last post on the subject. I find pedantry very boring.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  8. #158
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    So really it cannot be as hard as you say...
    It is as hard as I say. Living here I'd say I'd be in a better position to assess that than people who only visit occasionally and then attend vegetarian and vegan restaurants which may have spent months and months of difficult preparation in selecting their wine list beforehand, whereas in the UK one can access the Animal Free Shopper for free and in seconds and have over 1500 readily available wines to choose from at your disposal, immediately, without having to do any personal email research on your own or simply visit one of seven different supermarkets all with pre-prepared vegan wine lists. Neither of which one can do here.

    If you don't believe me you might try this little experiment next time you visit. Ask your concierge or other expert friends to recommend the most knowledgeable and prestigious wine store in all of the city. Then call them on the telephone and ask if they have someone on hand there who might help you select a vegan wine to buy when you come visit them later. The answer will be a polite "No". That is to say your supermarkets, for Pete's sake, are openly willing to provide a higher level of service than our most expensive and supposedly knowledgeable, "customer service focused", dedicated wine stores.

  9. #159
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    The animal free shopper is actually quite crap. As soon as it is out it is out of date. I buy it as a donation to the VS. The need to e-mail on a regular basis is one of the jobs a vegan needs to do. The Animal Free Shopper is not a definitive guide and I don't think anyone really uses it past the first few weeks it is out.
    The only sure way to do it is to learn what chemical names, trade names and assorted ingredients are animal derived products and look at allergy advice. I keep a list of chemicals in my work diary and can usually tell if something is vegan within seconds 90% of the time. It is not a great skill but something very easy to learn.

    I am only aware of one wine shop i've been in and the server knew what was vegan and that was because he is. Supermarkets are not staffed by all knowing staff most of the managers are even worse. It is the ability to shop with confidence, knowledge in what is vegan and a lot of homework that makes vegan shopping easy.
    Being vegan is not easy, it's not just about educating companies about what you can eat but ourselves in how things are made or produced.

  10. #160
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    The animal free shopper is actually quite crap.
    But by buying one of the 58 different green sunflower stamped certified beers or 190 wines you are getting an assurance that they must maintain their exact same fining process and ingredients at least for that year or else they wouldn't have been certified. [A luxury us Americans don't have since they don't certify any North American companies that I am aware of.]



    Trademark - Registered Vegan
    The Vegan logo is a registered trademark and is a symbol of our Vegan 'Animal-free' Standards. It appears on thousands of animal free products, and is displayed by catering businesses, that have been registered with The Vegan Society.

    Do you want to start using the Vegan Society trademark on your products or in your restaurant? The application form is available here online.

    Currently you can view listings for trademark holders - a complete product listing feature is planned.

    Copyright © 2004-2008 Vegan Society.


    Would I be correct in presuming that you'll also contend these seven supermarket lists are also similarly "crap"?

    If I were under the impression that I couldn't rely on the Vegan Society prepared lists and other vegan internet sources to determine the vegan status of goods and instead had to rely on emailing a barrage of personal emails every week to every company I do business with, each time I buy their product (because we know for a fact they change from time to time and without any indication of such on their label) I'd pretty much say being a vegan is impossible or more precisely impractical. IMO.

  11. #161
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Gorilla can i just wish you a great trip!.x

  12. #162
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    For crying out loud Mahk. You have spent the last twenty mins formulating another argument meant to try and belittle yet another person. The time could of been better spent e-mailing a US beer company and request vegan info.

    Some people could mistake the design of the Vegan Society logo and definition of trademark as very patronising and offensive. Luckily I'm not bothered by such things but am intrigued to see if you asked permission to reproduce the image in question?

    The use of multi and shortened quotes, that miss the entire essence of what someone has to say, is taking away the point someone makes and shows a lack of understanding on a post and twists words for weapons. Please read the words surrounding what you have quoted and stop using what I say in small snippets to try to prove a point.

    To drink any of the 190 wines and 58 beers 'approved' would limit myself to just those. Thankfully I am able to indulge in 100's more because some of us get off our backsides and investigate these things.
    Why would i want to look at seven supermarket lists when I am very able to look at a product and recognise the vegan delights within? Sainsbury's are very honest on that they miss lots off their lists and welcome submissions on what is missing. Besides this, they are usually well out of date.

    One of the best places to find vegan info is here on the forum. There is a wealth of information available to use. Use it. Talk to other US vegans and find what each of you know and share.

    If veganism is impossible as you state go back to eating meat or try to find out where to source things in a practice manner.

    I look forward to the next installment of why it is impossible to be vegan in.........20 mins?

  13. #163
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    For crying out loud Mahk. You have spent the last twenty mins formulating another argument meant to try and belittle yet another person. The time could of been better spent e-mailing a US beer company and request vegan info.
    I was attempting to show how I differ from you, not belittle you. You like emailing companies yet I don't. I think I have the right to explain why I feel this way. Email responses are worthless because they are transitory promises, IMO. I instead like certifications and/or seeing the word "vegan" on the product or the website, instead.
    Some people could mistake the design of the Vegan Society logo and definition of trademark as very patronising and offensive. Luckily I'm not bothered by such things but am intrigued to see if you asked permission to reproduce the image in question?
    I quite clearly indicated it was their trademark in the green text below it. You do realize this symbol does not appear anywhere outside of the UK or perhaps the EU yet this is an international forum, right? I didn't mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to illustrate to all including non-Europeans what I'm talking about. I only just today learned it was a sunflower, for instance. I've never seen the symbol in real life, only on the web.
    The use of multi and shortened quotes, that miss the entire essence of what someone has to say, is taking away the point someone makes and shows a lack of understanding on a post and twists words for weapons. Please read the words surrounding what you have quoted and stop using what I say in small snippets to try to prove a point.
    I apologize for not being able to read your mind. If I have made an error in representing what you mean why don't you point it out to all of us instead of having us guess what it is?
    To drink any of the 190 wines and 58 beers 'approved' would limit myself to just those.
    Well at least you have 190 and 58. We have zero.
    Thankfully I am able to indulge in 100's more because some of us get off our backsides and investigate these things.
    If I thought email responses had any lasting value maybe I would but to me they are transitory promises good for that day only, there's no guarantee they won't change the fining agent the very next day, for instance, therefor they are almost worthless. Yes, that's my opinion.

    One of the best places to find vegan info is here on the forum. There is a wealth of information available to use. Use it. Talk to other US vegans and find what each of you know and share.
    I personally don't consider blogs, other peoples' claimed emailed responses, forum entries here and elsewhere and such as hard evidence. I prefer a company label their product with the word vegan either on the actual product or their website, or in lieu of that an established organization, say for instance the one that coined the term "vegan" to look into it , verify, monitor, and certify their status for me. I don't consider this being lazy; I consider it being more careful.

    If veganism is impossible as you state...
    You perhaps misread what I wrote. I said I consider having to write a barrage of emails every week impractical.

  14. #164
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    a) everything is transitory
    b) i have never had to e-mail 100 companies a week and yet i mainly shop for goods that aren't trademarked by the VS (though if available i do favour them)
    c) veganism is supposed to be about doing our very best, personally i think that reading labels, avoiding obviously un-vegan products, and e-mailing maufacturers occasionally is doing just that.

  15. #165
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    also, Mahk, if veganism is so unrespected and little known in the U.S (and i do appreciate the size of the country having visited a few times so i realise thingsvary from state to state) then why are there so many vegan friendly food outlets there? .
    You do have vegan labelling in the states, anyway, don't you, i have bought (for instance) the NY peanut butter here that has a heart symbol and 'vegan' written on it.

  16. #166
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    It is as hard as I say. Living here I'd say I'd be in a better position to assess that than people who only visit occasionally and then attend vegetarian and vegan restaurants which may have spent months and months of difficult preparation in selecting their wine list beforehand, whereas in the UK one can access the Animal Free Shopper for free and in seconds and have over 1500 readily available wines to choose from at your disposal, immediately, without having to do any personal email research on your own or simply visit one of seven different supermarkets all with pre-prepared vegan wine lists. Neither of which one can do here.

    If you don't believe me you might try this little experiment next time you visit. Ask your concierge or other expert friends to recommend the most knowledgeable and prestigious wine store in all of the city. Then call them on the telephone and ask if they have someone on hand there who might help you select a vegan wine to buy when you come visit them later. The answer will be a polite "No". That is to say your supermarkets, for Pete's sake, are openly willing to provide a higher level of service than our most expensive and supposedly knowledgeable, "customer service focused", dedicated wine stores.
    Quote Mahk View Post
    I was attempting to show how I differ from you, not belittle you. You like emailing companies yet I don't. I think I have the right to explain why I feel this way. Email responses are worthless because they are transitory, IMO. I instead like certifications and/or seeing the word "vegan" on the product or the website, instead.
    I quite clearly indicated it was their trademark. You do realize this symbol does not appear outside of the UK or perhaps the EU yet this is an international forum, right? I didn't mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to illustrate to all including non-Europeans what I'm talking about. I only just today learned it was a sunflower, for instance. I've never seen the symbol in real life, only on the web.

    I apologize for not being able to read your mind. If I have made an error in representing what you mean why don't you point it out to all of us instead of having us guess what it is?
    Well at least you have 190 and 58. We have zero.
    If I thought email responses had any lasting value maybe I would but to me they are transitory responses, i.e. almost worthless. Yes, that's my opinion.

    I personally don't consider blogs, other peoples' claimed emailed responses, forum entries here and elsewhere and such as hard evidence. I prefer a company label their product with the word vegan either on the actual product or their website, or in lieu of that an established organization, say for instance the one that coined the term "vegan" to look into it , verify, monitor, and certify their status for me. I don't consider this being lazy I consider it being more careful.


    You perhaps misread what I wrote. I said I consider having to write a barrage of perhaps 100 emails a week impractical.
    The posts so far have not been about differing countries but how bad things are for YOU in the US. Well, sorry it is but try to do something about it. I have given you options but you insist on arguing about these.

    The use of the logo was not the offensive part, what was the point of showing it? It is detracting from the point. I am well aware of the logo and it's use.

    You felt that there are no vegan beers or wine in the US. I and others have told you there are and how to go about finding them out. This does not involve writing 100's of e-mails a week but carefully co ordinated e-mail contacts after leads from others that inhabit this forum. For example look at one of the Californian wines that are labelled vegan and web search for the vineyards contact details. Contact them and ask if they supply any other vegan wine in the US. They would have an understanding of the vegan term to be included in the AF shopper.

    Face it, there is unlikely to be a recognised vegan logo in the US any time soon so do something about it.

    I am glad you feel everyone who posts about vegan products as potential liars desperate to fool vegans into omni habits.

    The point of the shortening of multi quotes is not of you not being able to read my mind but YOU using a short part of a larger statement for what you wish it to mean. When i said that the animal free shopper was crap, it was part of a statement that it is woefully out of date on the date of sale. Your response to this was nothing to do with the AF shopper and yes the supermarket lists are just as crap. For the same reasons as stated above.

  17. #167
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote cobweb View Post
    a) everything is transitory
    But if I buy a product that is labeled as vegan yet it is not they've broken the law. In order for them to switch their fining agent from bentonite clay (vegan ) to isinglass they'd have to warn me about it by changing their label. If I email them, however, all they have to tell me (if they even will) is what they are currently using. There is no promise they wont switch the next day since they have no label promise to stay vegan. I would have to email them every time I buy them from my way of thinking.

  18. #168
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote cobweb View Post
    also, Mahk, if veganism is so unrespected and little known in the U.S (and i do appreciate the size of the country having visited a few times so i realise thingsvary from state to state) then why are there so many vegan friendly food outlets there? .
    Our size, perhaps? I wouldn't know. I have no knowledge of the difference in number of outlets here vs there.

    You do have vegan labeling in the states, anyway, don't you, i have bought (for instance) the NY peanut butter here that has a heart symbol and 'vegan' written on it.
    We do have some little obscure one here compared to the Vegan Society/ UK but absolutely none that do beer, wine, or liquor, where it is most needed since none declare their ingredients or processing on the package.

  19. #169
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    There is no promises with anything. Everything changes I'm afraid and it takes the team work of the forum (for example) to keep on top of such issues. I use the forum as a way to chat, meet new people and find new vegan things I was not aware of and inform others of things I have found.

    If companies don't label vegan quit moaning and ask them to do so. Have you honestly ever done that? (rhetorical question as I don't care either way). Is it just the beer issue or a food one too now? The food one is easy, look at the label and see what is in it. US products carry allergen advcie as recommended by the FDA and milk is an indicator it may not be vegan. Tree of Life mark vegan goods as vegan. So it is not unheard of to do so.

    The beer and wine is tricky that is why you have to work at it. Most companies that are vegan are aware of it and are able to give an indication of how long they have been and if they plan to for the future. This is not a gurantee as you would like it, but face it you are not going to get the result you want.

  20. #170
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Is this a record for the most posts of record in one go without it being pointed out!

  21. #171
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Our size, perhaps? I wouldn't know. I have no knowledge of the difference in number of outlets here vs there.

    We do have some little obscure one here compared to the Vegan Society/ UK but absolutely none that do beer, wine, or liquor, where it is most needed since none declare their ingredients or processing on the package.

    I beg to differ there - alcohol is hardly essential so to me the labelling thing is far from a major problem. If i did still drink i would contact (by fax/e-mail/letter/phone call) the producers of one or two of my favourite drinks and ask them for clarification, and then stick to those brands i was given positive info for.
    I'm afraid to say that even the vegan logo here isn't foolproof, companies can change their methods of production or there can be contamination issues .
    I am actually amazed that there is still no VS in the USA .
    Re your point about the size of America, i suppose that means that there are in fact vegan 'hotspots' such as New York, and areas of California, and other states where its far less common and there for not catered for .
    Do you not have local vegan groups over there that make lists of local vegan outlets and provide food/drink info?.

  22. #172
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    The use of the logo was not the offensive part, what was the point of showing it? It is detracting from the point. I am well aware of the logo and it's use.
    It wasn't for you, it was for the benefit of anyone outside of the UK (or does it spread to EU as well?) who has never seen the symbol before such as other Americans, Canadians, Australians etc. This symbol is not well known outside of where you live, I was merely showing others what I was talking about.
    Face it, there is unlikely to be a recognized vegan logo in the US any time soon so do something about it.
    Blaming the victim. Like it's "my fault" we don't have a vegan watchdog organization watching over us Americans like the UK does.

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    The US does need a vegan society too, start one or ...
    Blaming the victim. Like it's "my fault" we don't have a vegan watchdog organization watching over us Americans like the UK does.

    Ascertaining which beer and wine is vegan in the US is harder than in the UK for me because unlike you I don't believe every blog entry and forum post I read on the internet as being the vegan gospel. I need to see it myself from the source, the manufacturer, or in lieu of that a bona fide certification company I respect like the one which coined the term "vegan", The Vegan Society/UK. Anything less is a roll of the dice as far as I'm concerned, even my own personal emails to a company wont do because their response is not a guarantee they won't change how they do things the very next day!

    I am glad you feel everyone who posts about vegan products as potential liars desperate to fool vegans into omni habits.
    Only about .1% of me is afraid of that. 99.9% of me is afraid of mis-communications, inaccuracies, language barriers, mis-belief that isinglass is a form of mica (it is actually by another definition they might accidentally use), don't know that bees are animals, forgot to think about what the filtration/ fining medium is made of, think we wouldn't care if all of it is removed prior to bottling anyway, thought we only cared about the ingredients in the beer, answered that they don't use any animal fining agents today but switch to isinglass tomorrow as did Fosters and St Peters recently, forget to mention the brewing methods for the exported beer is different from the rest, failed to indicate differences between bottled and draft...[the list is almost endless. People make mistakes, but if a product is actually labeled as vegan but in truth isn't I can take them to court, blog entries and forum posts though? not so much.]

    When i said that the animal free shopper was crap, it was part of a statement that it is woefully out of date on the date of sale. Your response to this was nothing to do with the AF shopper and yes the supermarket lists are just as crap. For the same reasons as stated above.
    [emphasis mine]

    Absolutely false. My immediate response, if you'll kindly re-read post #160, after quoting your "it's crap" comment was that unlike their main list, the special green sunflower certified goods (190 wines/ 58 beers) have an entire year of guaranteed certified vegan status and not
    As soon as it is out it is out of date.
    as you claimed. Companies are of course welcome to renew their certification beyond the year each year if they promise to continue to adhere to the published vegan status guidelines and pay the fee.

  23. #173
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    There is no promises with anything.
    I beg to differ. That's exactly what a Vegan Society green sunflower certification stamp is to me; a promise.

    Blog entries and forum posts are just word of mouth banter with no guarantee at all with no legally binding responsibility. Even if I email Beer X personally and they respond "Our product contains no animal ingredients and we use bentonite as the fining compound, which of course as you must know is non-animal", they could switch to isinglass the very next day, as did Fosters and St Peter's, make no change to their labels, I'd never know they did unless I email them weekly, and not only has he not broken a promise, or the law, he hasn't even lied!

  24. #174
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    Is it just the beer issue or a food one too now?
    Just beer, wine and liquor for me, not food, because they don't have their ingredients listed. I pretty much have all animal compounds memorized so I don't really need to carry any lists or need help from organizations.

  25. #175
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote cobweb View Post
    I beg to differ there - alcohol is hardly essential so to me the labeling thing is far from a major problem.
    I think you may have misunderstood me. When I said it is "most needed" I meant it is the last remaining consumable goods that doesn't legally need an ingredients list given so I still need assistance with that category. All other goods I simply read the label.

    I drink like six beers a year, usually Grlosch or Heineken, not that I particularly like them but I'm hoping that what we get here is identical to the stuff that's "vegan" in the EU. Unfortunately no one will make that promise to me so I am "crossing my fingers", in a sense.

    I'm afraid to say that even the vegan logo here isn't foolproof, companies can change their methods of production or there can be contamination issues
    Well northing is 100% foolproof, true, but even you admitted earlier that it does give at least some comfort seeing their certification than none. If a company pays to get an annual green sunflower certification stamp of approval, however, and they change from the vegan status standards I linked to earlier they've broken a contract, get the boot, and I would assume are forbidden from ever reapplying ever again.

    I am actually amazed that there is still no VS in the USA
    Technically I think there is but they are a rinky-dink outfit that does nothing and most importantly doesn't certify anything so I have no interest in them.

    i suppose that means that there are in fact vegan 'hotspots' such as New York, and areas of California, and other states where its far less common and there for not catered for .
    I'd probably agree but it is hard to say. NYC is so large that they sort of have to have the most veg*n restaurants by definition. They say there are so many restaurants in NYC that one could eat at a different one for every meal of every day for their entire life and never visit the same restaurant twice!
    Do you not have local vegan groups over there that make lists of local vegan outlets and provide food/drink info?.
    My local group has different standards than me. They for instance have reviews of a local burrito restaurant yet after persistent emailing and even visits to the store I was unable to get an ingredients list for their flour tortilla shell so I'm assuming they'll eat such goods "on faith" but I wont. Mono and diglycerides (or E471 as you call it in your language) is a very common ingredient in flour tortilla shells here and an iffy ingredient. I suspect they just look the other way but I don't want to insult them by asking.

  26. #176
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Time for a holiday?

  27. #177
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    If you don't believe me you might try this little experiment next time you visit. Ask your concierge or other expert friends to recommend the most knowledgeable and prestigious wine store in all of the city. Then call them on the telephone and ask if they have someone on hand there who might help you select a vegan wine to buy when you come visit them later. The answer will be a polite "No".
    I have no idea whether Astor Wines (near Astor Place, NYC) is what you would consider one of 'the most prestigious' but I can tell you that I have visited them as a walk in (without phoning first) more than 4 times and have been helped by knowledgeable staff on each occasion.

    Quote Mahk View Post
    You do realize this symbol does not appear anywhere outside of the UK or perhaps the EU yet this is an international forum, right? I didn't mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to illustrate to all including non-Europeans what I'm talking about. I only just today learned it was a sunflower, for instance. I've never seen the symbol in real life, only on the web.
    I bought a pair of shoes from Moo Shoes displaying the sunflower logo on the outside of the heel. These are not available in the UK.
    I also saw many UK beers for sale which are vegan, though as I'm not a big beer drinker I'm not sure whether many / any display the sunflower logo on the label.

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    Time for a holiday?
    To New York perhaps!?!
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  28. #178
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Just to remind everyone how we got onto such a long disucssion about this.

    I was not impressed that Dirt Candy had no idea of which wines were vegan when every other place I've eaten in NYC can tell me this information.

    If it takes a lot of research fair enough - choosing wines for your wine list takes a lot of time and research and they are in contact with suppliers and wineries so surely they are better placed to find out than the average consumer? And since the other restaurants have found out this information why haven't they?
    They didn't say they are still in the process of finding out or any such excuse when I said I found this shocking. It appeared they did not think it was important. This was important to me and so I mentioned it in my review of Dirt Candy (the first on here afaik) for the benefit of other vegans planning a visit.

    Mahk's response seemed to me to be excusing Dirt Candy for not knowing by quoting me and saying the information is not readily available. My reply to that was meant to say it may not be readily available but since others are providing that info it must actually be available so in my opinion a vegetarian and vegan restaurant should have found out.

    Can we drop this now?

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Originally Posted by Marrers
    Also they [Dirt Candy] had no idea whether any of the wines were vegan.
    For anyone who might care to know, that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans (or American vegan restaurants) for several reasons . . .
    Quote Mahk View Post
    Originally Posted by Marrers
    So really it cannot be as hard as you say...
    It is as hard as I say. Living here I'd say I'd be in a better position to assess that than people who only visit occasionally and then attend vegetarian and vegan restaurants which may have spent months and months of difficult preparation in selecting their wine list beforehand . . .
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  29. #179
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Yes. Sorry

  30. #180
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    I have no idea whether Astor Wines (near Astor Place, NYC) is what you would consider one of 'the most prestigious' but I can tell you that I have visited them as a walk in (without phoning first) more than 4 times and have been helped by knowledgeable staff on each occasion.
    And had no one able to assist you in selecting which wines were vegan. I just called them [ US telephone (212)-674-7500 ] and spoke to a very friendly and knowledgeable salesperson, John, and he verified that not only was he unaware of which of the hundreds of wines they sell are vegan but also that no one else there would have that information either. He wasn't even sure exactly what I meant by "vegan" at first and asked "You mean whether the grapes were mechanically harvested?" [this he knows!]. I explained it was really the fining agent used and asked if he was able to determine what finning agent was used for any given brand and bottle he sold. Answer: "Sorry, no."

    He did volunteer that he was able to tell me which brands and bottles were "organic" and also which were "biodynamic" but unfortunately from web research I've now verified that neither is a guarantee of vegan conditions, at all:

    "For the record, both conventional and organic wine makers use 'animal products’ during production to clear or ‘fine’ the wine, to keep it from turning cloudy or to remove off tastes."

    Source.

    A search of Astor Wines on-line wine database of several hundred wines also fails to find the use of either the word 'vegan' or even the more common word 'vegetarian' unlike your seven different, common supermarkets that actually have prepared lists of both vegetarian and vegan wines already assembled on line. As I said before, even your common supermarkets are able to provide more information than our most prestigious, customer service oriented, dedicated wine stores.

    I bought a pair of shoes from Moo Shoes displaying the sunflower logo on the outside of the heel. These are not available in the UK.
    You've made a slight error; they are available in the UK. Moo Shoes is the name of a particular store you visited but the brand of shoe you bought (I just called them) was made by an internationally distributed company called "Earth", manufactured in China, and they have a particular line which is Vegan Society/UK certified, called "vegan" . If you like the shoe you could buy additional pairs without having to return to that NY store by ordering a little closer to home:

    Telephone In UK: 0161 975 5380
    Love Those Shoes
    Hamsin Ltd
    B5 River View
    The Embankment
    Vale Rd
    Heaton Mersey
    Stockport
    SK4 3GN
    United Kingdom

    I also saw many UK beers for sale which are vegan, though as I'm not a big beer drinker I'm not sure whether many / any display the sunflower logo on the label.
    None do (here).

    Can we drop this now?
    I (mistakingly) thought you had:

    Quote Marrers View Post
    I'm not interested in doing that so this is my last post on the subject.
    ---

    I was not impressed that Dirt Candy had no idea of which wines were vegan when every other place I've eaten in NYC can tell me this information.
    They may have "told you" this information but did you happen to notice that none of the bottles that showed up to the table had the word "vegan" printed on the actual label (or a similar promise of no animal derived fining agents)?

    [If I'm wrong, please indicate the restaurant and wine label by name. Thanks.]

    I suspect either your sommelier or wine list preparer mistakingly thought any wine that's "100% organic, all natural, 'biodynamic', Earth friendly, gluten-free, sulfite-free" must also be "vegan", or they relied on the "word of mouth" internet bulletin board site, Barnivore, hardly solid evidence that a given wine brand is vegan, in my opinion. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, please present it.

    I wasn't trying to imply Dirt Candy should be "excused", but rather that this level of information is notably harder to ascertain here than in the UK; that's my only point. Me? I need it in writing that a food/drink product with an invisible ingredients and preparation procedure is vegan, ideally from the company itself or by a stamp of approval and annual certification from the esteemed Vegan Society/UK, to feel safe. Others feel emailing a company to discover they are coincidentally vegan the day you email them is a good method. I beg to differ.

  31. #181
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Well I was not wanting to get drawn into a detailed debate but was hoping to give a few facts for clarity.

    I feel sure there is no way you will ever be satisfied with anything I say . . . but for the sake of others reading the thread (if anyone still is) I'll try to ignore your patronising tone and your efforts to belittle my contribution and I'll address the points I can.

    I am curious though - are you living in New York City? Where do you live? I ask because this is a thread about New York and my comments are about New York. The Wholefoods selling beer in New York sell quite a few UK beers of which I think at least some are labelled vegan.

    As for wine at Astor Wines I can only say the people I spoke to knew what vegan wine was and directed me to brands I knew to be vegan (like Frey which is not organic). I spoke to different people on each visit of my four plus visits and have no reason to suppose they lied to me - why would they? Those who did not know referred me to a colleague who did. They were aware that organic wine was not necessarily vegan wine. I am sorry you did not have that experience on the one occassion you telephoned them. (It seems a strange thing to have done after I shared my experience - you are very keen to prove yourself right.)

    Many of the wines I drank in the restaurants I visited (and others I saw on the wine list) I 'know' to be vegan because they are sold as such by mail order specialist organic wine companies here in the UK who state many of the wines they stock are suitable for vegans. Of course I imagine you may think they are not telling the truth and would not trust them not having had it in writing from the vineyards yourself. However that is good enough for me. Or instead you may suppose that by happy accident some of the wines listed as vegan by the deceiving and/or ignorant restaurants in New York actually happen to be vegan. (By your thinking I suppose I should be checking the kitchens for non vegan ingredients there too?)

    eta There are several animal charities (such as Viva!) and wine companies who sell wine which is vegan - Barnivore is not the only information resource. Unless you think Viva! are conning us too?

    I did not 'make a slight error' with the shoes. I am well aware that Moo Shoes is a store and not a brand or a shoe manufacturer - having gained the impression that you are the only vegan expert in our midst I'm surprised you were not aware until you telephoned (again trying to prove yourself right). The only place we can get Earth brand shoes here is from the mail-order only company you mention but they do not stock anything like the full range. They do not stock the pair I was talking about (or the other pair I bought). And you may also be interested to know that only some vegan Earth shoes display the sunflower logo.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  32. #182
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Mahk i really don't understand your intentions on this board .

    In case you are under some sort of delusion, only a tiny % of goods here in the U.K carry the sunflower logo. For the rest of our foods/drinks/toiletries, etc, we have to either rely on the shops own labelling, word of mouth from other vegans, or the good old fashioned e-mail/letter/phone call to the company method.

    I'm not atall sure that the Vegan Society take samples of everything carrying the sunflower logo, either, so there is always the potential for maufacturers to lie or to not fully understand what 'vegan' means .

    It really isn't hard to find suitable food for vegans in most places now, as for the rest (e.g alcohol) its obviously far from essential. If we do want these vegan luxuries we have to sometimes take a slight chance and actually believe what people tell us when we ask for information .

    What do you hope to gain by constantly arguing with, and patronising, other members here?. Maybe you hope to spread seeds of doubt about the validity or possibility of a vegan lifestyle, or maybe you would like to completely alienate yourself from all other vegans/human beings? .

    For someone who dislikes e-mailing companies simply to ask if a product is vegan, you don't seem to mind making lots of pointless phone calls simply to try and 'win' a few points in an argument on a forum................

  33. #183
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    ignore your patronising tone and your efforts to belittle my contribution and I'll address the points I can.

    I'm pointing out that ascertaining the vegan status of wine and beer over here is more difficult and have pointed out examples of resources you have at your disposal we don't, such as:

    A) Pre-prepared lists provided by seven of your common supermarkets, whereas in America no supermarkets nor even esteemed dedicate wine stores provide any such lists.

    B) Vegan Society certification emblems on some of the wine and beer, you actually might see in a store, whereas in America this never occurs ever, and

    C) On-line lists of over 100 different available wines and over 50 beers that are guaranteed/certified by the Vegan Society and annually re-evaluated to be made and bottled for your country only as being vegan, readily availible to anyone with internet access, whereas in America we have exactly zero.

    "Please note - this is a UK publication and relevant primarily to the United Kingdom. As brand names/ingredients vary from country to country we would not recommend it as a guide to shopping for animal free products in any country outside the UK."

    -Vegan Society/ UK

    You consider this belittling and/or patronizing? Well, then again BB thought my depiction of the Vegan Society flower was
    Some people could mistake the design of the Vegan Society logo and definition of trademark as very patronizing and offensive.
    So I guess I have a week understanding of what some people might find offensive. Oh well.

    As for wine at Astor Wines I can only say the people I spoke to knew what vegan wine was and directed me to brands I knew to be vegan (like Frey which is not organic)
    They no longer carry Frey, BTW.

    (It seems a strange thing to have done after I shared my experience - you are very keen to prove yourself right.)
    Funny how most people seem this way, as opposed to being keen on proving themselves wrong.

    ...and have no reason to suppose they lied to me...
    Of course I imagine you may think they are not telling the truth
    I already said in a previous post it's a "miscommunication/ignorance thing" not a "they lie thing" I fear.
    This is not a rhetorical question for you: Before becoming any form of veg*n did you know:

    1) What isinglass is made from?
    2) That it is used in the preparation of some beers and wine, even organic, yet is never listed in the ingredients because it is later removed?

    This is not generally common knowledge at all [ask any omni friend] and when we receive email/phone responses from beer and wine company customer service representatives we can statistically assume that about 99% of the responders are not vegan themselves and therefore we can assume they also don't even know about isinglass, etc. or that they need to consider this issue in their response to us.

    "Yes, our product is 100% vegan. No animal ingredients are ever used."

    you are very keen to prove yourself right
    Yeah, funny how I keep doing that. Weird, huh? Actually, in a sense, I'm hoping to be proven wrong. The very first person who can demonstrate a brand of beer sold in America, available in supermarkets or Astor wines with either the actual word "vegan" on the label or the "Vegan Society Flower" will get a free beer from me and/or I will do a humiliation dance for all and admit publicly I was wrong. Think how good that would make you all feel. Come on people, just one brand, that's all it takes.

    eta There are several animal charities (such as Viva!) and wine companies who sell wine which is vegan - Barnivore is not the only information resource. Unless you think Viva! are conning us too?
    Besides the expense, I'm not interested in generating a carbon footprint the size of NY by having my goods internationally shipped to me trans-Atlanticly [if that's a word] just so I can see the word "vegan" printed on the beer bottle label. Your point is also a "red herring" argument, I never said vegan wine "does not exist", I said it is harder for Americans to ascertain this information.

    Proving to me that there is a wine I can buy on-line, which is vegan doesn't prove I'm wrong. My only point is:
    Quote Mahk View Post
    For anyone who might care to know, that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans...
    Because of reasons A, B, and C above.

    Wholefoods here in Boston don't sell beer or wine. That must be a NY thing.

  34. #184
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote cobweb View Post
    Mahk i really don't understand your intentions on this board .
    Pretty simple really. To learn the vegan truth. [and to point out others' un-truths]

    In case you are under some sort of delusion, only a tiny % of goods here in the U.K carry the sunflower logo. For the rest of our foods/drinks/toiletries, etc, we have to either rely on the shops own labelling, word of mouth from other vegans, or the good old fashioned e-mail/letter/phone call to the company method.
    Or in the case of beer and wine, the topic of our discussion:

    1) Simply go on line to the Animal Free Shopper, free of charge, and have an immediate listing of over 100+ readily available wines and over 50+ beers that are annually re-evaluated and certified to be vegan by the oldest, most respected, most knowledgeable vegan organization in the world, in fact they even coined the word itself! Good for your country only, so says them:

    Quote Mahk View Post
    Please note - this is a UK publication and relevant primarily to the United Kingdom. As brand names/ingredients vary from country to country we would not recommend it as a guide to shopping for animal free products in any country outside the UK.

    -Vegan Society/ UK
    2) Look at the lists of vegan beers and wines that seven of your major supermarkets publish and stock for all to see, either ahead of time on line, or print it out and take it with you. A luxury even our most expensive and dedicated beer & wine stores don't offer here in the US, let alone a single supermarket.

    Those are two gigantic advantages you have that us Americans don't regarding beer and wine evaluation,
    proving my only point in this whole discussion, all along:
    ...that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans
    ---


    What do you hope to gain by constantly arguing with, and patronizing, other members here?. Maybe you hope to spread seeds of doubt about the validity or possibility of a vegan lifestyle, or maybe you would like to completely alienate yourself from all other vegans/human beings?
    Thank you for your kind words as always, cobweb. You always make me feel so welcomed here. Or maybe I am a space alien from the star system Vega and mistakenly signed up thinking I had found a community of fellow vegans! I seek the plain, unadulterated truth. End of story.

    If anyone wants to try to explain to me what it was that I said that they considered "patronizing" they are going to have to quote the exact part they mean; I'm unable to guess.

    For someone who dislikes e-mailing companies simply to ask if a product is vegan, you don't seem to mind making lots of pointless phone calls simply to try and 'win' a few points in an argument on a forum....
    Neither phone call was pointless for me:

    Finding out that the Vegan Society was now certifying American products as well would have been about the best news I've heard all year, and was implied, or at least was how I read:
    Quote Marrers View Post
    I bought a pair of shoes from Moo Shoes displaying the sunflower logo on the outside of the heel [while in NY]. These are not available in the UK.
    Similarly, finding out that Astor Wines in NYC has a knowledgeable sales staff who could direct me to vegan wines/beers, has a well designed website that labels which beers and wines are vegan, or provides pre-prepared lists of vegan friendly beers and wines they stock also would have been a huge coup for me. They could even ship to me non-transatlanticly. Oh well, none of these things happened.

  35. #185
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    wow, for someone who drinks six beers a year you really seem to make it difficult for yourself! . I wonder how other Americans manage! .

    Sorry if i am unwelcoming, i guess you really don't understand the difference between joining in and coming across as patronising, arrogant and self righteous .

  36. #186
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    They no longer carry Frey, BTW.
    . . . it's a "miscommunication/ignorance thing" not a "they lie thing" I fear.
    I am aware of this. On my last visit a few weeks ago I was directed to some wines which are made without any finings at all (not necessarily organic). The staff did not seem ignorant to me.

    Quote Mahk View Post
    The very first person who can demonstrate a brand of beer sold in America, available in supermarkets or Astor wines with either the actual word "vegan" on the label or the "Vegan Society Flower" will get a free beer from me and/or I will do a humiliation dance for all and admit publicly I was wrong. Think how good that would make you all feel. Come on people, just one brand, that's all it takes.
    I'm surprised you did not ring Wholefoods to find out which UK beers/ciders they sell and whether any are labelled vegan. The store on Houston/Bowery has a separate beer department.
    http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/stores/bowery
    Many issues can be resolved with a quick phone call.
    This store can be reached directly at 212-420-1320.
    If I was still in NY now I'd take a look for you - but I'm not. Mind you nor are you so what use would that be? In fact I don't even know which brands are labelled vegan here in the UK. FYI very few wines are actually labelled on the bottle here and of those that are very few use the VS sunflower mark.

    Astor Wines do not sell beer BTW.


    Quote Mahk View Post
    Wholefoods here in Boston don't sell beer or wine. That must be a NY thing.
    Really? The only branches of Wholefoods in the USA selling beer are in NYC? Why would that be? Perhaps it's just not sold in your Boston store.

    I would like to add that in general finding vegan food, labelled as vegan was much easier in NYC than it is here in London. In virtually every corner shop/ grocery store you can find a good range labelled chilled savoury ready meals, vegan sandwiches, vegan cookies, vegan smores etc. Great vegan cakes and desserts are easy to find which is not the case at all here.
    So maybe you lose out on the ease of buying wine, but generally everything else is much easier. I know which problem I'd rather have.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  37. #187
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Mahk, please refrain from using anything i post as part of a quote. I left the thread as i could not be bothered to argue with someone who has such grandiose ideas of his own glorious veganism.

    Your use of the VS logo was offensive and you meant it to be too. It was used to try to prove a point that you had not made clear until yesterday. It's use was not needed for any reason than to show you have a search function on your PC. Why would i want to know the description for it? Do you think I am a vegan in the UK and am not aware of what it is? You try to use quotes, links and tenuous points to make yourself look intelligent and important. All it does is show you up as a pedantic man who will make an out of state call to try to prove a point to someone. Take a backseat for a moment and imagine reading someone else doing that? Would you not sit back and think what the f**k? That was my initial reaction. The next was one of pity that you hold so little faith in anyone or anything,

    You hold so much stock in the VS sunflower but again do you know how they compile the AF shopper?

    THEY REQUEST THE INFORMATION FROM SHOPS AND PRODUCERS!!!!! THEY THEN ASK THE WINE AND BEER PRODUCERS TO SAY IF THEY ARE VEGAN OR NOT. WHICH BIT OF THIS IS FAILSAFE? THEN IT IS OUT OF DATE ALMOST AS SOON AS IT IS PRODUCED.

    The truth is every vegan in the UK has to spend two weeks every year following food and beer production then guarantee it is indeed vegan.

    Now Mahk, you will say it is about the logo on the bottle. No the argument you had was about the AF shopper and supermarket lists, for an example on how OUR supermarkets are all knowing and wonderful places I searched vegan on the Sainsbury's site and got chicken and sausages in gravy. Walmart gave me a few. The last time I looked at the sainsbury's online list was in January and it was last updated in October. In that time a good plain chocolate had milk added and some crisps we enjoyed developed milk. Neither was mentioned on external packaging except from when we looked at the label, which we always do. For that very reason we check EVERYTHING we buy.

    Again I feel a little dirty at having to get back into this thread as I know a just as pointless a reply will come flying back in 20 mins filled with useless links and lovely pics. If it is any use I am not aware of what vegan society logo looks like in negative if you want to show me that pic too?

    I am going to regret posting this and may edit it to nothing later when I calm down.

  38. #188
    Sloth
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    Default Re: Vegan New York...The following post contains flashing images.


  39. #189
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York



    THAT HAS MADE ME LAUGH SO MUCH. IT IS THE GREATEST AND MOST TIME APPROPRIATE POST EVER.




    p.s.
    Love the avatar.

  40. #190
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote cobweb View Post
    i guess you really don't understand the difference between joining in and coming across as patronising, arrogant and self righteous .
    Thank you for your added words of kindness calling me patronising, arrogant, and self righteous, cobweb.

    I come to this forum mostly to learn information and exchange knowledge. I suspect when I think I'm attempting to be "informative" usually providing links, pictures, and diagrams in an attempt to be " illustrative", the majority of you, it would seem, take it as "patronising, arrogant and self righteous". I like it when people provide links, pictures (Thanks Sloth! ), and diagrams. I wish people would do it more often. It helps me learn.

    I joined in adding that ascertaining the vegan status of beer and wine is more difficult here in the US, because I thought some people here who have never lived in America might not know that and find it of interest. I often enjoy hearing about how things are different in other lands myself, for instance. The concept that seven of your major supermarkets have pre-prepared lists of vegan beers and wine, even "house brands" (!), is mind boggling to an American vegan shopper, for example, seeing as the first (and last) time I saw the word "vegan" used in an American supermarket they obviously didn't have a clue what they were talking about.

    I mentioned that there is a difference in ascertaining the vegan status of beer and wine here in the US, compared to the UK, my only point all along, give evidence and links to back my claim [apparently doing so is also seen as offensive by some], and it is taken as "an attack"? Is it an attack against Marrers? [Because it was her post which I quoted and was tacking on what I thought might be considered relevant information to some] or the UK? or veganism? or other? Seeing as I meant it as an exchange of information across our international forum and nothing more, I'm at a loss to see why making a point and backing it with evidence and links is "offensive".

  41. #191
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    If I was still in NY now I'd take a look for you - but I'm not. Mind you nor are you so what use would that be?
    If you were to find a bottle of beer with the word "vegan" printed on it in a NYC supermarket (including Wholefoods), proving me wrong that they actually do sell in supermarkets in the US, there would be a 99.9% probability I'd be able to see the same brand at a store here to verify your find, you would get the satisfaction of proving me wrong, get to see me publicly admit I was wrong, and see me do a humiliation dance for all. My feeling is that many of you would greatly enjoy this so that's how it would be useful.
    Really? [yes, really] The only branches of Wholefoods in the USA selling beer are in NYC? [No, I said the Boston stores don't.] Why would that be? [I don't know. Ask them.] Perhaps it's just not sold in your Boston store. [Correct, it is not sold in any of the Boston stores. I've come to discover that there are Wholefoods stores within driving distance much closer than NYC, however, that do have beer/wine so I'll check it out when in that area.]
    So maybe you lose out on the ease of buying wine,...
    OMG! You are admitting there's a possibility my original claim might have some actual validity?!
    ...that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans
    I think maybe you've had a bit too much wine. Your fellow country-people will be appalled.

  42. #192
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Mahk View Post
    OMG! You are admitting there's a possibility my original claim might have some actual validity?!
    Actually no I'm not.

    Could you be any more tiresome? I doubt it but I suppose you'll prove me wrong with your next reply.

    You obviously think the broken record technique / constant repetition is a good strategy so maybe I'll try it on you.

    Quote Marrers View Post

    And actually I said:
    Originally Posted by Marrers
    So really it cannot be as hard as you say to find this stuff out Mahk.
    I did not say that you said it was "impossible", I said it cannot be "as hard" as you say. I have no idea why you have read that differently.
    I never at any point previously commented on whether it was any easier or harder than in the UK.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  43. #193
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Marrers View Post
    I never at any point previously commented on whether it was any easier or harder than in the UK.
    Fair enough. I'm kindly asking you directly then. Do you think the resources you have availible to you in the UK would in any way make ascertaining the vegan status of a beer or wine any easier or harder than living here in the US?

    [I'm pretty sure I know your answer but I'd like to see you actually put it in print so I wont later be accussed of "putting words in your mouth" or "stating how you feel"]

    Additionally, might you please comment if you think these three statements of mine are accurate or not regarding differences between our two countries:

    A) Pre-prepared vegan beer/wine lists, including "house brands", provided by seven of your common supermarkets, whereas in America no supermarkets nor even esteemed dedicate wine stores provide any such lists.

    B) Vegan Society certification emblems on at least some of the wine and beer, you actually might see in a store, whereas in America this never occurs ever, and

    C) On-line lists of over 100 different available wines and over 50 beers that are guaranteed/certified by the Vegan Society with their flower trademark symbol stamp of approval, which are annually re-evaluated to be made and bottled for your country only as being vegan, readily availible to anyone with internet access free of charge, whereas in America we have exactly zero.

    "Please note - this is a UK publication and relevant primarily to the United Kingdom. As brand names/ingredients vary from country to country we would not recommend it as a guide to shopping for animal free products in any country outside the UK."

    -Vegan Society/ UK


    Thank you.

  44. #194
    Buddha Belly
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    To answer these would deviate from the original points you made and score you some lovely brownie points, in your head. Please grow up.

  45. #195
    Prawnil
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Someone get the nurse.


    [Really though, those supermarket lists are compiled publicly & are not provided by the supermarkets. The lists bind producers to their ingredients & methods no more than any other email response from producer to a customer query - To a person who doesn't accept a single assurance at a single time from a producer as good enough for a safe buy, they ought not to be of any advantage at all.]

  46. #196
    cobweb
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Prawnil View Post
    Someone get the nurse.


    [Really though, those supermarket lists are compiled publicly & are not provided by the supermarkets. The lists bind producers to their ingredients & methods no more than any other email response from producer to a customer query - To a person who doesn't accept a single assurance at a single time from a producer as good enough for a safe buy, they ought not to be of any advantage at all.]

    Precisely. There's nothing more to say, really .
    Get the nurse, but make sure its the one with the straight jacket .

  47. #197
    terem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Whoa what's with all the hate?

    We all have a hard time looking through ingredients on the back of packages making sure whatever we're buying is vegan, whether you're in Europe or America...

    Where's the vegan solidarity?

  48. #198
    terem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Oh Marrers, btw, thanks a whole bunch for posting the SuperVegan website! I'll be going to school in Queens, NY in the fall and that website is super helpful!

  49. #199
    Rentaghost Marrers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Glad you found it useful terem.
    Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything. - Floyd Dell

  50. #200
    Mahk
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    Default Re: Vegan New York

    Quote Buddha Belly View Post
    To answer these would deviate from the original points you made.
    False. My original post's points on the topic:
    Quote Mahk View Post
    For anyone who might care to know, that information is not nearly as readily available to American vegans (or American vegan restaurants) for several reasons:

    A) We don't have an annual compendium in the way of the "Animal free shopper" guide to confer.

    B) There is no equivalent organization to the UK's Vegan Society here who monitors and certifies the vegan status of beer and wine companies.

    C) I've never seen the word "vegan" or an ingredients list on any bottle of beer in my life here (I almost never drink wine so I can't comment on that), the only way to tell is to contact the company in question personally each time you buy it and hope they are willing to cooperate. About half the time the response I get is,"We are under no legal obligation to inform you about any ingredients that aren't allergens nor the filtration or finning process we are currently using this month. We consider it a trade secret."

    About all we can do is compare email responses with each other from those who do cooperate and hope they are accurate and up to date which is always sketchy, at best. They could change at any time since they haven't been certified by anyone and are free to change their finning/filtration process and ingredients at any time, for any reason, and with no indication of such on their label.

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