Need a reply to this stupid statement.

[Farflame]

I've found myself in one of those 'discussions' with a bunch of vegan-haters on another forum. I'm doing fine and there's a couple of other vegans helping out, and we're staying calm and polite. But somebody has just come up with something idiotic, which I know is false, but I can't think of how to word my reply properly, since I'm no expert on nutrition.

He says 'Humans cannot digest greens, they need animals to do this for them'. Amusingly, he then says 'Vegans have no idea how the digestive system works', so it's just begging for a reply.

So, I assume humans can digest greens? Is that comment as idiotic as it sounds? I'm fairly sure I manage to digest them fine

[Blueberries]

You'll find your reply in this article http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/1...of-eating.html, it's about the fact that human are closer in anatomy to herbivores than carnivores.

...since I'm no expert on nutrition

I think you're more knowledgeable than someone who claims that we need animals to digest our greens for us!

[Farflame]

Well yeah, I have a reasonable knowledge of food, but I'm not one of those who can whip up nutritional facts (I should learn). This statement was so odd though that it perplexed me and although it seems stupid, I thought I'd better double-check before replying. Thanks for the post, I've read stuff before on nutrition, I'll find something clear to reply with

[Risker]

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

[AzureAngel]

There is a big difference between arguing and laying down the facts for them to digest. I say explain it in simple terms and dont try and change their mind, just give them the facts. That is how I have done it in the past.

[Risker]

^ I'm a total hypocrite BTW, I do it all the time.

[Farflame]

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

I also try to avoid these discussions, because I'm not sure you achieve anything, even if you 'win'. I think other people are correct when they say, it just forces people to dig their heels in. Infact, I sometimes think the more I 'win', the more it angers them and the worse I'm making the situation. Best to avoid it, but I got suckered into this one by initially just explaining that something that somebody said was incorrect (it was one of those 'The vegan diet is unhealthy and all vegans have health problems' type of arguments). I pointed out that I've been vegan for 11 years and haven't been ill once.... and then it dragged out......

I'm interested in your point there Risker. What do you mean by that? I have a feeling that some guy has deliberately attempted to be stupid, just to keep me arguing, and is now showing a bit of common sense. I feel like I've been led into a trap

Oh yeah lol, I see what you're saying now. Clearly I'm equipped with enough idiocy to challenge them

[leedsveg]

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Very true Risker. I put people on "Ignore" but of course that's only good for the forum.

LV

[vegandingo]

He says 'Humans cannot digest greens, they need animals to do this for them'. Amusingly, he then says 'Vegans have no idea how the digestive system works', so it's just begging for a reply.

Your opponent has made the claim as being a fact. Ask him to back his statement up with facts that prove his position.

[VeganC]

This is just ridiculous. If we couldnt digest greens im sure more people would look at this lifestyle as a dangerous one, not a healthy one haha

[jackie]

Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

excellent! i'll remember that

[jackie]

i found this link...... don't know if it's true but tell him you don't eat grass!

http://www.quora.com/Human-Biology/W...ers-like-grass

and this..... http://www.ehow.com/list_7316466_foo...ellulose_.html

interesting... i've learned something tonight.

[TheHRchannel]

To be honest, I'd laugh at that person.

[VeganAthlete]

Humans and non-human animals can very well digest greens and all sorts of other foods such as grains & most nuts! Cows pretty much live off pasture, sea animals live off kelp and algea...phytoplankton are also pretty much producers as well. Humans that came way before us would not have bothered hunting for berries, nuts and vegetation if humans could not digest them....before we were a modern civilization, people hunted and gathered (and some actually settled on territory and took up agriculture to replace hunting). Humans are equipped with some of the enzymes required to obtain macro-nutrients and micro-nutrients from different foods.

Yeah, I'm with HR, I'd probably laugh at them as well.

[odizzido]

This is really late but if people couldn't digest plants without eating animal stuff than all vegans would die......since vegans don't die off it's obviously not true.

[Maître]

Haha, it seems like this guy only listened to half of his primary school science lesson and took in the bit about not being able to digest grass but fell asleep for the other half which explained why and thus why we can digest other greens.

[VeganAthlete]

I know this is super random, but did anyone know that people could actually eat dry ice (or whatever it's called)...it's those bean looking things that protect packages in transit? That stuff is obviously not food, but the body digests it into a simple sugar so that it can be used by the body. In a sense, it's sort of environmentally friendly because it breaks down so easily when exposed to environmental factors!

[Risker]

^ Dry ice is frozen carbon dioxide. You put that in your mouth and it'll freeze your tongue in to a solid block.

If you mean packing peanuts, some are okay, some are not. For my business I buy them made of potato starch so that they're biodegradable and can be composted (you COULD eat them but I wouldn't). The more solid ones are made from plastics though I believe.

Some places use air popped popcorn as packaging material, Lush stores in the UK do I think.

[VeganAthlete]

^ Dry ice is frozen carbon dioxide. You put that in your mouth and it'll freeze your tongue in to a solid block.

If you mean packing peanuts, some are okay, some are not. For my business I buy them made of potato starch so that they're biodegradable and can be composted (you COULD eat them but I wouldn't). The more solid ones are made from plastics though I believe.

Risker, thank you for that clarification! Lol. Yeah, Dry ice would be a BAD thing to put into your mouth :P

There you go...it's potato starch. The whole packing peanuts thing popped into my head because I never looked into what our environmental science professor meant by edible packing peanuts...but I understand now. Yeah, she did mention that as well!

Yay! I am glad you are environmentally friendly with your business on top of being vegan! I actually bit into a packing peanut and I thought it was pretty gross. I was too curious about finding out how it was edible. I wouldn't do it again, though!

Oh wow...popped popcorn is pretty interesting to use for the purpose. Never seen it done, but it's most interesting. I am just flabbergasted by the amount of paper and plastic used by the US and other advanced nations

[Andy_T]

Oh wow...popped popcorn is pretty interesting to use for the purpose. Never seen it done, but it's most interesting. I am just flabbergasted by the amount of paper and plastic used by the US and other advanced nations

Unfortunately, without salt it tastes pretty meh.

There are lots of things you can make out of potato starch. I remember at the winter olympics in Lillehammer they made the one-time trays and food containers out of this stuff so that you could actually not just eat the goulash or whatever you bought, but also the plate on which it came.

My kids are totally fond of a toy called Play-Mais that is made of corn starch. It's basically coloured blocks of corn starch that you can cut apart and glue to each other simply using water - and when you're done with your artwork you can (and are encouraged to) eat it.

Best regards,
Andy

[VeganAthlete]

That is pretty neat!!! Talk about environmentally friendly The body will digest it just as if it were candy or rice...all starches and other forms of carbs are metabolized into sugars that the body can use as fuel. Who knows...perhaps future generations will be more savvy than we are and just eat their toys once they outgrow them or eat their plates instead of washing their dishes. Stuff like that sounds a little on the far edge, but totally possible.

[Andy_T]

Hmm ... now that I think about it, when omnis eat at McDeath, the paper box might actually be more healthy than the Big Mac contained in it... (not just less cruel to produce)

Best regards,
Andy

[VeganAthlete]

Hahahaha...don't forget that even the box would contain more grams of fat than the food we eat on a daily basis. I am sure the box soaks up the fat and lard that the meat can hold. Heck I think even the lettuce there is probably sprayed with funky stuff. I don't even want to think about the working conditions for those people who have to produce the billions of bags, containers, utensils, boxes, etc for the McDeath Franchise/Corp

[ChrisF]

I think it is really unevolved to hate someone because of what they eat. We all make choices and that's what we call freedom. When we tell someone that they can not do something that is perfectly acceptable and legal in the society we live in there is no longer personal freedom. There are things that I like in this world and things that I don't like so I simply avoid those things that I do not like. I can not say how many vegans and vegetarians I have meet especially where I live in the world that drink and smoke and are disgusted by KFC or McDonald's, I'm disgusted by the all of the whiskey and cigarette advertising in the city but it is what it is. My wife and children eat just about everything while when I cook they are stuck with what I cook, the choices they have made are personal ones and while I try to educate them about the health benefits of my diet it continues to be their choice. I do however insist on no junk food as we live in a country where fresh fruit and veg is available all year generally for less than one US dollar a kilo.

[CoolCat]

I think it is really unevolved to hate someone because of what they eat. We all make choices and that's what we call freedom. When we tell someone that they can not do something that is perfectly acceptable and legal in the society we live in there is no longer personal freedom. There are things that I like in this world and things that I don't like so I simply avoid those things that I do not like. I can not say how many vegans and vegetarians I have meet especially where I live in the world that drink and smoke and are disgusted by KFC or McDonald's, I'm disgusted by the all of the whiskey and cigarette advertising in the city but it is what it is. My wife and children eat just about everything while when I cook they are stuck with what I cook, the choices they have made are personal ones and while I try to educate them about the health benefits of my diet it continues to be their choice. I do however insist on no junk food as we live in a country where fresh fruit and veg is available all year generally for less than one US dollar a kilo.

It's not personal when you hurt others. But from what I get you follow a vegan/vegetarian diet for your own health only?

Laws change, so does what is considered "perfectly acceptable"... the US used to have black slaves, and that was legal and "perfecly acceptable". In many countries (and plenty still) women didn't have the right to vote and that was legal and "perfectly acceptable". Childeren used to work (and in some countries still do) from a very early age and there was no school for them, that was legal and "perfectly acceptable". Until recently gay men and women were denied to serve in the US military, that was legal and "perfectly acceptable". In most US states and many countries arround the globe gay men and women still don't have the same rights as opposite sex couples, that is legal and "perfectly acceptable".

We can only hope that laws and attitutes towards exploiting non-human animals will change one day, but going round telling it's a personal choice and perfectly acceptable isn't helping when so many non-human animals are abused. Maybe look into the ethical side of veganism as well instead of just doing the diet... the vegan outreach material out there is eye opening.

[sandra]

Yes, we cannot say it is 'perfectly acceptable' when other living beings are being hurt and exploited because of someone's 'personal choice'............that's just wrong.

[ChrisF]

I am a vegan and it's a choice. It doesn't matter what my politics are. I do not CONVERT diets nor religions. I also do not make laws... however I am technically a philosopher and I do have a say in ethics but hateful comments will never ever be considered in a debate. In debate, ethics and philosophy make new laws. opposing current laws brings violence... Your point is what?

[sandra]

My point is that it is wrong to eat animals full stop............I'm not sure what your point is though Chris.

[ChrisF]

I'm not sure I have a point because indeed it is a fact and I have no reason under the sun (or moon) to BS you...full stop,,, It is wrong for ME to eat animals but I am homo superior... want to join?

[harpy]

I'd say exploiting animals is wrong for other people (or other people in affluent Western society, anyway) for exactly the same reasons it's wrong for me. Why would a moral argument apply to one person but not another? (Or don't you believe any moral judgements apply universally, Chris?)

I don't "hate" people who think differently from me though, or feel superior to them (ETA not sure anyone has said they do?). I just feel mine is the better choice in this specific instance.

[Mymblesdaughter]

I don't think I understand this thread it started off with someone who was having problems with none vegans criticising them and now somehow has gone to the other extreme of saying we shouldn't criticise meat eaters how did that happen?

[CoolCat]

It's just trolling. Calling people unevolved and making a bunch of random vague statements. If we would all think like ChrisF then Rosa Parks would just have given up her seat. But I'm sure I'm being hateful and unevolved right now

[Korn]

When we tell someone that they can not do something that is perfectly acceptable and legal in the society we live in there is no longer personal freedom.

I don't think vegans tell others that they (or we) "can't" eat eg. meat, but the whole vegan concept is based around the idea that freedom shouldn't be restricted only to the human species. Freedom, for me, is the main reason to go vegan / to not kill or hurt other living beings.

Having said that, there's certainly no reason to hate someone for what they eat.

And - to the original poster - I think there's a rather massive agreement among vegan and non-vegan dieticians and doctors that humans should eat *more* green plants. (But we can't digest regular grass, although some juices are using eg. barley grass - without the cellulose).

[Andy_T]

I think there is an important difference here being "hateful" to non-vegans versus educating them.

I agree with ChrisF, if you attack omnivores along the lines of "meat is murder ... you are a murderer" and so on, I agree that the effect will be pretty small. But I guess there are only very few on the forum here who would address the issue in that way.

Telling omnivores on the other hand about the disadvantages of animal-based nutrition (both on ethical, health and environmental reasons) can be a very important step and is certainly in line with "personal freedom". It is normally not possible to force people to eat vegetables, so it is necessary to help people to grasp the reasons themselves. Mind you, I do not ask everybody to be an activist, but asking others not to educate in order to "respect the personal freedom" does not seem right to me either.

Best regards,
Andy

[Ladygold]

It's just trolling. Calling people unevolved and making a bunch of random vague statements. If we would all think like ChrisF then Rosa Parks would just have given up her seat. But I'm sure I'm being hateful and unevolved right now

LOL I'm at work on the reference desk and just started laughing so loud I had to explain to a patron what was funny.

LG

[leedsveg]

I don't have too many people who I think of as heroes but Rosa Parks is certainly one of them.


Leedsveg

[ChrisF]

I feel superior to a lot of people, I never felt that way before but when I turn on the TV from time to time and watch political debates or the current sitcoms I feel like I am the one holding all of the common sense. What can I say if you don't like something you have to change it according to the rules and guidelines of your society. I'd say exploiting anyone or anything for any reason is wrong and that's that but I'm not in charge of policing the world. I do not believe morality is universal actually I know it is not. What people in other cultures do is morally incorrect to you but what you do is morally incorrect to them, who is to say who is correct?

I'm not militant about anything. If you force people they will not comply and if they do it won't be for long. I am not the one who makes the rules or enforces them in fact I didn't like the rules where I'm from so I moved to another country where the rules were more appealing to me. We each make our own decisions and choices and that is partially freedom. You could say the same things about someone with a 2 acre lawn they should be growing food or allowing others to use it but that's not how things work in most of the world.

In any event I do not pass judgement on others I was carnivorousness once but learned a new life style and a new code of conduct for myself, if I had been pushed or bullied I would have resisted and become angry in turn. I remember the first time I saw someone throw red paint on someone else wearing fur and I thought how horrible of both of them and shame on them both. I use my words to resolve conflict not my anger or passion.

I'm hardly trolling and Rosa Parks was a much different thing. Being a militant vegan with morals that are high and mighty will get you nothing but resentment and a spot called a subculture, while I do believe a lot of people are vegans simple for this reason or because they see it as a fad and want to be part of a minority it is what it is. You will have to go after every diabetic and demand their insulin if you want to be militant.

[VeganAthlete]

I don't have too many people who I think of as heroes but Rosa Parks is certainly one of them.


Leedsveg

Uh, I got lost towards the end in the thread...but right on Leedsveg! Mrs. Parks is highly regarded here as well!

[harpy]

I imagine we all agree that Rosa Parks is completely admirable. I don't agree that what she did is a totally different thing for making a case for veganism - it is different in some important respects but similar in other important ones, e.g. she didn't let the fact that something wrong (discrimination) was legal put her off taking a stand against it, and arguably neither should we. (I don't mean that we should do illegal things, but that we shouldn't accept things as OK just because they are legal.)

What people in other cultures do is morally incorrect to you but what you do is morally incorrect to them, who is to say who is correct?

What about people in the same culture though? If it's wrong for me to exploit animals, can it be right for the person over the road with similar economic circumstances, religion or lack of, etc?

[ChrisF]

Yes, I agree Rosa Parks was a wonderful woman with a lot of courage. The year I was born interracial marriage was still illegal in my state, we have come a little way from that but not far enough. These are moral philosophy questions and I'm happy to peacefully talk about them and I believe through proper and peaceful discourse things really get solved. We all have our morals and ethics even if others consider them to not be so moral or ethical. I left my country when my president made the comment "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (George H. W. Bush) I saw congress made a big stink of having a vote to continue having "in god we trust" as the nations motto which was a trick as the motto is actually "E Pluribus Unum", or is supposed to be anyway.

Generally people in the same culture live by the majority decision, I suppose it's that simple. I am lucky living where I live and working where I work because people support my life choices and they respect them. I'm actually considered to be an honourable person because I do not use animal products, that comes from a religious prospective if you want to use the word "religious" very loosely and the philosophy of non harm.

In Buddhist Philosophy we teach that you can only change you. You have no power or control over the outside world but by example you can help other to change. People ask me about my eating habits for various reasons and I share with them, I even make food and bring it to my office some times to share with our faculty. Most of the people here observe Boun Khao Phansa or Buddhist Lent which lasts 3 months from July to October at which time it is appropriate to be a vegan, I tell people I'm just doing it for another 9 months longer than them. At this time many people also give up the booze and the smokes and many never return to it.

I think if I still lived in the USA I would open a small dinner (as dinners are very popular where I'm from) but be completely animal product free, I make a wicked samurai burger and you can pretty much eat 8 of them to equal the calories in a fast food burger that would defiantly be harmful all the way around. This is a way to educate people rather than force them, you give them a choice, you tell them that it is healthy, sustainable, environmentally friendly, cruelty free and they are doing a really good thing all the way around (appeal to their ego).

Remember the pilgrims did not come to America to escape religious persecution (as there was freedom of religion in GB at the time) they came to persecute those not like them. Don't be that person, yeah?

[leedsveg]

I feel superior to a lot of people...

In any event I do not pass judgement on others...

Leedsveg

[ChrisF]

Leedsveg

You are taking it out of context and the spirit it was meant in. Judging people is one thing but observing blatant stupidity is another. I need not judge, only observe and feel sorry.

[leedsveg]

Judging people is one thing but observing blatant stupidity is another.

Er, ok.

Leedsveg

[harpy]

You have no power or control over the outside world but by example you can help other to change. People ask me about my eating habits for various reasons and I share with them, I even make food and bring it to my office some times to share

I think that's the same thing most of us do, so perhaps there is no real disagreement, except the part about choices being personal - and even that may be a matter of semantics, since the fact you want to help others to change suggests you actually agree that veganism is preferable to non-veganism (ETA for others, not just for you)?

they came to persecute those not like them. Don't be that person, yeah?

Has someone here been advocating persecution, then?

[sandra]

I think if I still lived in the USA I would open a small dinner (as dinners are very popular where I'm from)

Hi again Chris, what other sorts of vegan dinners would you serve in your diner?

[CoolCat]

[...] Generally people in the same culture live by the majority decision, I suppose it's that simple. [...]

I would like a democracy like that, unfortunate I haven't seen it yet. In all the places/countries I'm aware of the companies with the most money make the decisions and the will of the people is blatantly ignored and discarded. I think this is what all the Occupy fuzz is about actually, or at least some of it?

A second issue with this is minority groups/views. If I'm not mistaken Rosa Parks was part of a minority group. We look back now and consider her action against the majority decision to be justified. Why would action in regards of veganism be any less justified because the majority decision wants to continue exploiting and abusing non-human animals. At one point human slavery was a majority decision as well. Would you have advocated "the right to own human slaves is a personal freedom" ?


Addition: It's easy to get stuck in a system we are familiar with and not question or challenge things, however we should have a vision of a better system and work towards achieving that and not just rest in how things are now. Today's society is just the baseline for the one of tomorrow and we all get to do our bit to shape that one.

[Mymblesdaughter]

I think generally people that are persecuted are in a minority group for instance Vegans. I don't think you can be considered to be persecuting people that are in the majority in your country. I don't think anyone has said anything here that could make you think they were doing anything that could be considered persecution. General we are the ones being oppressed and usually have to stay calm and bite our tongues but if you push us too far do we not have the right to answer for our decisions.

I also think it's easy when being vegan is just a food choice. If you are doing it because you consider the exploitation of animals is wrong then it's hard to keep quiet.

[leedsveg]

Remember the pilgrims did not come to America to escape religious persecution (as there was freedom of religion in GB at the time) they came to persecute those not like them.

I don't remember seeing these points mentioned elsewhere, especially of the "freedom of religion in GB" in the 17th century? I'd always understood from my schooldays that GB had religious intolerance in the 17th century (especially in the early part)? And which people exactly were the pilgrims intending to persecute, when they set sail?

Leedsveg

[ChrisF]

That's what American History says but not what European History says. I think today we can see which areas are intolerant of "non-believers" and which ones have become non-believers through close examination of the world around them and empirical evidence. The fact that people were hanged in the colonies for witchcraft or resembling an animal (suggesting they "laid" with an animal) would suggest a lack of freedom. A lot of groups including the founder of my state Pennsylvania were asked to leave, they were not harmed.

[leedsveg]

Is this an answer to my questions ChrisF?

Leedsveg