What's the lamest excuse you ever heard as to why people eat meat?

[Clueless Git]

That is what she said, but it is not what she means.

"The life of an animal worth more than the life of a human" ... this is the stupid "stranded on a small island with only a cow" analogy. Even Gary Francione said in his podcast that, under such circumstances (which are highly unlikely), he himself might also consider to kill the cow in order to sustain his own life.

But what she means in reality is that "The life and suffering of an animal is worth less than a minor inconvenience of a human", because eating vegan food instead of animal food is not much than that. She likes the taste and would find it inconvenient to have to think of something else for lunch. Sad.

Best regards,
Andy

When you's right, you's right Andy.

I hadn't spotted it before but the "a human life is worth more than an animal life" line does, indeed, rely on the totaly falacious idea that humans would die if animals didn't.

On the reasonable assumption that it is not possible to get that wrong accidentaly then it can only be gotten wrong intentionaly?

I'm ever increasingly convinced that the intentional killing of other species is inextricably linked to the intentional killing off (in parts, at least) of one's own mind.

[Eileen Dover]

A friend (ex) of mine declined an invitation to dinner out with us at our local Veggie place because her husband does not like to go out dancing afterwards smelling of vegetables!!!

It was such a ludicrous statement I thought I had misheard..but NO she actually said that.

[Nikorusama]

I can't believe half of these comments!!! The people I have told, work colleagues, friends and family don't necessarily agree with being vegan but they haven't argued with me about it. The worst my work colleague have done is tell me that there weren't eggs in a particular cake etc and that it was vegan but only in a joking manner because they just wanted me to join in. I obviously declined. My parents have been fine, my mum thought it was silly at first but has really got into buying ethical cosmetics, toiletries and cleaning products now after I bought her a copy of the ethical consumer. My boyfriend is an omni and doesn't want to be a vegan/veggie himself but doesn't mind if I am. He did also say that he does agree with vegetarianism but just can't stop eating meat. I reckon when we move back in together in a few years, and I'm the only me that can cook he'll soon come round to being vegan/veggie (or at least in the house he will). The thing I find is if I don't push my vegan lifestyle on anyone else they don't push their omni lifestyle on me and vice versa. Although I want more people to become vegan, I'm not going to preach about it as it upsets them and I try to treat people the way I'd like to be treated.

[Clueless Git]

A friend (ex) of mine declined an invitation to dinner out with us at our local Veggie place because her husband does not like to go out dancing afterwards smelling of vegetables!!!

It was such a ludicrous statement I thought I had misheard..but NO she actually said that.

Rather amazingly one of m'better half's freinds said exactly the same thing once to her Eileen!

Which, for some or other reason, made me think of this Spitting Image Sketch ..

[Clueless Git]

I can't believe half of these comments!!! The people I have told, work colleagues, friends and family don't necessarily agree with being vegan but they haven't argued with me about it. The worst my work colleague have done is tell me that there weren't eggs in a particular cake etc and that it was vegan but only in a joking manner because they just wanted me to join in. I obviously declined. My parents have been fine, my mum thought it was silly at first but has really got into buying ethical cosmetics, toiletries and cleaning products now after I bought her a copy of the ethical consumer. My boyfriend is an omni and doesn't want to be a vegan/veggie himself but doesn't mind if I am. He did also say that he does agree with vegetarianism but just can't stop eating meat. I reckon when we move back in together in a few years, and I'm the only me that can cook he'll soon come round to being vegan/veggie (or at least in the house he will).

God must have a special love for you to have surrounded you with such people Nikorusama

Meanwhile, those of us who have (presumably) almightily pissed off the almighty one continue to be tormented by demons of stupidity, sent straight from the seventh level of hell, for our 'sins' ...

The thing I find is if I don't push my vegan lifestyle on anyone else they don't push their omni lifestyle on me and vice versa. Although I want more people to become vegan, I'm not going to preach about it as it upsets them and I try to treat people the way I'd like to be treated.

Just a thought on that one ...

When it comes to treating others (not people in this instance, admitidly) they way I would like to be treated; If I were one of the 'voiceless' ones that omni's force their lifestyle upon, i.e. it were my butt next in line for the stun gun at the abbortoir ..

Well, I think I would kinda like those who do have voices to put aside their social niceties and make a lot of noise for me.

[Nikorusama]

Just a thought on that one ...

When it comes to treating others (not people in this instance, admitidly) they way I would like to be treated; If I were one of the 'voiceless' ones that omni's force their lifestyle upon, i.e. it were my butt next in line for the stun gun at the abbortoir ..

Well, I think I would kinda like those who do have voices to put aside their social niceties and make a lot of noise for me.

I actually see your point here although be that as it may, I actually find just going about my daily business and getting on with veganism is actually attracting more good attention and people are curious and really respect what I am doing and that I can have the determination to be vegan. It is getting them more into vegan and ethical practices than arguing with people and making them angry, then they just group all vegans as people that are snooty, preachy and lump us in with the highly religious and block out anything we say. That's in my short amount of experience I have had as a vegan and years of being veggie. But essentially I do agree with what you have said as I do believe that we should be the voices or those who don't have a voice but our voice can be literal or through actions.

[Nathan John Pryke]

I agree with Niko here, if people are interested in being a vegan then i will have a long discussion with them about it, but sometimes its like speaking to a brick wall. As for the post i have two: 1. My girlfriend tried being vegan for me when i turned (earthlings helped) she quit after 3 weeks saying "i respect what you are doing but i just dont care enough to watch what i eat" 2. My brother wins with me by comically saying "If a cow is stupid enough to let me kill eat i deserve to eat it" Even i laughed at that.

[Sundance]

I had a very disturbing arguement with my classmates in the Buddhist University, where I study. There are two groups there. The first group - the minority - is vegetarian or vegan, the second - the vast majority - are just simply dont like it...(they think that we consider ourselves superior, ergo they constantly criticize and verbally attacks us for safety's sake).
Never mind, they said numerous things. The one that I cant argue with, is that the vegetables - even the fruits, grains and nuts - can experience pain. (even more intense than human.) They said its scientifically proven.

Please help mates! Where can I find an article or a topic or something helpful about this?

[Jivattatva]

I had a very disturbing arguement with my classmates in the Buddhist University, where I study. There are two groups there. The first group - the minority - is vegetarian or vegan, the second - the vast majority - are just simply dont like it...(they think that we consider ourselves superior, ergo they constantly criticize and verbally attacks us for safety's sake).
Never mind, they said numerous things. The one that I cant argue with, is that the vegetables - even the fruits, grains and nuts - can experience pain. (even more intense than human.) They said its scientifically proven.

Please help mates! Where can I find an article or a topic or something helpful about this?

I have not heard any study about consciousness in plants other than the study of Indian scientist J. Chandra Bose. Below is what his experiment was about. Anyway, consciousness is a hard subject even about human consciousness in the sense that scientists still are not in one opinion how consciousness might have emerged from matter. But to go back to your problem , however this year a group of prominent neuroscientists made the Cambridge Declaration on Consciousness which explains where it maybe emerging in humans and non-human animals. If you are interested I put the link to the declaration below, also.

Personally based on my metaphysical beliefs both animals and plants have consciousness but I still think that animals have a more developed system by which they feel pain. One reason which I can say without really thinking about this issue is that animals have the sense of "self" ( from my point of view anyway because it's not obvious to me), which plants do not have.


http://www.areplantsconscious.com/ Are plants consciuos? He spent much of the rest of his life exploring minute responses to external stimuli applied to plants. He demonstrated that plant tissues under different kinds of stimulation produce electric responses similar to those produced by animal tissues. His extraordinary experimental results were achieved by using a range of ultra sensitive measuring instruments - also his own invention. He was the first Indian scientist to be elected to The Royal Society - in London, 1920.

His plant sensitivity findings can be explained in a number of ways. Some scientists prefer to use conventional materialist explanations in terms of the flow and transmission of chemical and bio-chemical substances. And, as V.A. Shepherd has pointed out, Bose "had argued all along the importance of electrical signalling in plants, and the world has now come around to this view." Others, mainly in the East, see Bose's findings as providing support for ancient Hindu vedantic theories of consciousness - even in plants. Bose himself was comfortable with both approaches to the explanation and understanding of his findings.

Declaration http://fcmconference.org/img/Cambrid...sciousness.pdf

[Clueless Git]

The one that I cant argue with, is that the vegetables - even the fruits, grains and nuts - can experience pain. (even more intense than human.)

That is one that you should argue for not against Sundance.

This is simply because if plants are capable of experiencing suffering then whichever diet require the least plants to be harmed is clearly the 'least harm' diet.

I once got threatened with 'repercusions' on a buddhist forum for using the piccie below to illustrate which diet is which, btw ..


U

[Sundance]

"This is simply because if plants are capable of experiencing suffering then whichever diet require the least plants to be harmed is clearly the 'least harm' diet."

Thanks for the replies, but thats exactly what they saying too. I am very new on this arguement, so pardon me if I cant follow it correctly, but isnt it justifies them? I mean, if we claim, that we sould eat the least plants, than it follows that, we should eat more animal products in order to reduce our suffering output?

Or we mean that: if everything that we eat is a feeling and suffering material, than we should decrease our food intake? So, the person who eats the least possible food causing the least possible suffering?

[Lentils]

"This is simply because if plants are capable of experiencing suffering then whichever diet require the least plants to be harmed is clearly the 'least harm' diet."

Thanks for the replies, but thats exactly what they saying too. I am very new on this arguement, so pardon me if I cant follow it correctly, but isnt it justifies them? I mean, if we claim, that we sould eat the least plants, than it follows that, we should eat more animal products in order to reduce our suffering output?

Or we mean that: if everything that we eat is a feeling and suffering material, than we should decrease our food intake? So, the person who eats the least possible food causing the least possible suffering?

If you eat a cow that you have forced into existence and enslaved then you've directly caused the death and suffering of all of the plants that the cow has eaten, which will be far more total than you'd cause by eating plants directly.

[Sundance]

If you eat a cow that you have forced into existence and enslaved then you've directly caused the death and suffering of all of the plants that the cow has eaten, which will be far more total than you'd cause by eating plants directly.

AAAA, thanks, I get it now!

[Clueless Git]

If you eat a cow that you have forced into existence and enslaved then you've directly caused the death and suffering of all of the plants that the cow has eaten, which will be far more total than you'd cause by eating plants directly.

Most succinctly put Lentils

- - - Updated - - -

AAAA, thanks, I get it now!

You can add this to the pot (as it were) too, if you like, Sundance ...

The Buddha is said to have named four named stages of life in which suffering is unavoidable; Birth, sickness, old age and death.

The meat industry generates vast numbers of unnatural births soley in order that it can create vast numbers of unnatural deaths creating vast amounts of sickness (to both animals and people) in between.

The only one of the four sufferings the meat industry does not inflict upon it's vast numbers of animal victims is the third one, old age.

[Sundance]

Hello!

Thanks for the Buddhist aspect of vegan topic. It's very helpful, very racional, and yes, I need exactly these kind of things.
The situation is, that I have to keep a lecture about veganism in the University in the middle of December, so I have to be prepared about it. I have start to read Roshi Philip Kapleau's book - To cherish all life. I just finished DaVid Degrazia's animal rights book, and started a shortened Francione book, after that I am planning to read Melanie Joy's book about carnism, but perhaps I'll need further advices.

I have 2 question:

1) Can you recommend me a forum, a topic about the Buddhist aspect of veganism?

2) Is there any "pre-generated summary of vegan arguement"?
(for example if the opponent ask - Veganism is against evolution! - I can say a summarized, scientifically based reply...and so on.)

1000 THX!

[TheHRchannel]

Me: "You don't need meat for protein. You can find them in seeds, nuts, beans, spinach, and more."
Meat eater: "But meat has protein too."
Me: "But if you can get protein from plants then why eat animals for protein?"
Meat eater: "Just shut up!"

[BellaTanie]

A friend (ex) of mine declined an invitation to dinner out with us at our local Veggie place because her husband does not like to go out dancing afterwards smelling of vegetables!!!

It was such a ludicrous statement I thought I had misheard..but NO she actually said that.

That one definitely takes the cake lol!

[prudence]

"I would have to eat over one hundred servings of kale and beans to get the amount of protein my body needs, or I could have chicken for dinner."
"Animals don't suffer or feel pain they are killed painlessly in the slaughthouse. "
(I started crying after this. I just couldn't explain how sad I was at the state of their consciousness and how hardened their heart had become. There are so many people living in this world who are alive but don't even know it, they don't undestand that there is so much more to life than what we are told to consume and they don't care.)

[tickled onion]

"I would have to eat over one hundred servings of kale and beans to get the amount of protein my body needs, or I could have chicken for dinner."

were they rhino sized per chance?

[Clueless Git]

.. were they rhino sized (chickens) per chance?

As described at 3:32 seconds into this expose on modern day farming methods ..

[tickled onion]

gotta love partridge

[prudence]

were they rhino sized per chance?

Haha! they were average sized for the adult homo sapien. I just left it at that I don't want to force anything on anyone else despite feeling so strongly for veganism

[Clueless Git]

I just left it at that I don't want to force anything on anyone else despite feeling so strongly for veganism

That is incredibly disrepectfull to the non vegans views Prudence.

The meat eater view being, inherently, that it is right to force our views upon others. Even to the point of forcing our view on others as far as to what value is placed upon their actual lives.

It always worries me that if I don't force my vegan views upon non vegans that I am sending them the message that their moral code is not good enough for me.

[tickled onion]

when the tv adverts, billboards, magazines, shop windows, tv cookery programmes, street markets and fast food joints all stop forcing their non vegan views on me anytime i'm not asleep, I'll stop spouting vegan ones every chance i get

[prudence]

That is incredibly disrepectfull to the non vegans views Prudence.

The meat eater view being, inherently, that it is right to force our views upon others. Even to the point of forcing our view on others as far as to what value is placed upon their actual lives.

It always worries me that if I don't force my vegan views upon non vegans that I am sending them the message that their moral code is not good enough for me.

The part of the non vegan view that angers me the most, the 'protein' argument, and forcing it on everyone with that out dated food pyramid that tells us we have to have three serves of red meat a week or something like that. The vegan food pyramid is so much better

[Clueless Git]

The part of the non vegan view that angers me the most, the 'protein' argument, and forcing it on everyone with that out dated food pyramid that tells us we have to have three serves of red meat a week or something like that. The vegan food pyramid is so much better

I let you into a little secret Prudence?

I have a two-part sneaking suspicion on that one ...

1. 'They' know that those intelligent enough will figure this stuff out on their own.

2. 'They' know that 99.9% of the population would be dead in a week if left having to remember to eat from 5 different food groups all on their own.

[Grey Wombat]

"I have arthritis and vegetables are harder to chop than meat."

Breathtaking.

[Blueberries]

"I have arthritis and vegetables are harder to chop than meat."

Breathtaking.

So they don't eat any vegetables at all? o_O

[Clueless Git]

So they don't eat any vegetables at all? o_O

Mostly just slices of soup, I would imagine ..

[tickled onion]

so there was never any reason to invent meat cleavers and steak knives then?

[misosoup]

when the tv adverts, billboards, magazines, shop windows, tv cookery programmes, street markets and fast food joints all stop forcing their non vegan views on me anytime i'm not asleep, I'll stop spouting vegan ones every chance i get

Yes! Exactly! But non-vegans will never see this. Actually, most of the time it'll be them attacking me or make uncomfotable comments when all I've said is 'no thanks I'm veggie/ vegan'.

Until I was 10 I had to eat meat, I even ate veal at one point, to my shame. I feel sick about that. I used to have to eat my Sunday dinners with a carcass in the middle of the table. I've had a meat eating culture forced on me all my life.

My mother was telling me the other day I should be eating organic dairy, and when I try and explain why I don't want to, I am lecturing her. She is 'helping me'.

[Firestorm]

"I have arthritis and vegetables are harder to chop than meat."

Breathtaking.

This made me laugh out loud (it was 5:30 this morning and the cat looked at me like I as insane). Some people are just unbelievable

[misosoup]

Actually, with regards to the arthitis comment. Many people with rheumatoid arthritis cut our dairy or follow a vegan diet and their symptoms improve dramatically.

[Arbor Vitae]

A Muslim once told me "Because it's acceptable under Islamic rules" and when showing me a video of how Halal meat is prepared "Look it's not suffering when it dies, so it's ok."

My only response was "I'm pretty sure it's not asking to be killed."

[tickled onion]

A Muslim once told me "Because it's acceptable under Islamic rules" and when showing me a video of how Halal meat is prepared "Look it's not suffering when it dies, so it's ok."

My only response was "I'm pretty sure it's not asking to be killed."

those few words of prayer in a language it can't understand must be very comforting for the animal.....

[Andy_T]

Actually, with regards to the arthitis comment. Many people with rheumatoid arthritis cut our dairy or follow a vegan diet and their symptoms improve dramatically.

Exactly my thoughts. But how can they do that, with them vegetables being so hard to chop (shakes head) ?

Best regards,
Andy

[Blueberries]

Exactly my thoughts. But how can they do that, with them vegetables being so hard to chop (shakes head) ?

Best regards,
Andy

Food processor? Young, able-bodied man?

[misosoup]

Exactly my thoughts. But how can they do that, with them vegetables being so hard to chop (shakes head) ?

Best regards,
Andy

Lol so true.
I think a lot of medical problems can be improved with diet, and a vegetarian/ vegan diet is used by some people to to help their conditions.
There was a really good show on in the UK called 'The Food Hospital' and it helped a lot of people, some with conditions like rheumatoid arthritis, with food.

I used to view food as just something to eat, but since turning vegan and taking my health more seriously, I begin to see food as medicine too. I don't view food as 'good or bad', but 'helpful and not helpful'.

[Tabbycat]

The only excuse I've really heard from people is they "need meat". Which isn't true, as we all know. But it's extremely difficult to convince people they don't need it and would be healthier without it.

By the way, I love the Zombie food chain picture above.

[misosoup]

I hate the 'meant to' excuse.

Even if we were 'meant to' eat meat and it is a part of the human experience I still wouldn't do it. Just because it's 'natural' or whatever doesn't meant it ethical or kind. Lots of things that are natural are horrible.

[VeganEsthie]

I think the one I hear a lot that I think is pretty dumb is typically from women who say something along the lines of, "women can't go vegan because we lose iron every month and we need iron and you can't get it from supplements or other sources." Last time I checked, the molecular structure of iron in animals has not morphed into something different than what we know as iron from the periodic table.

[spiritexpressing]

Someone said to me, yeah, they know it's wrong to eat meat but there's so much wrong with the world and you'll never fix it all. Oh.Kay.

[Clueless Git]

so there was never any reason to invent meat cleavers and steak knives then?

Swap you your steak spoon set for my collection of lettuce knives?

[herbert]

Actually, with regards to the arthitis comment. Many people with rheumatoid arthritis cut our dairy or follow a vegan diet and their symptoms improve dramatically.

I have rheumatoid arthritis and don't think I would be in the upright position I am now if it wasn't for my vegan diet.: it has worked wonders for me and no amount of drugs have ever had the benefit of a vegan diet. And to prove the point even more, the 6 monthly infusions of a chemotherapy drug ( and a very expensive drain on the NHS ) which I am supposed to have to keep me active and prevent deterioration according to my consultant I haven't had for well over two years and never a word about the impact of diet is ever muttered by the health professionals...

[misosoup]

Oh wow, congratulations! I am so glad for you! I am sorry your doctors aren't open minded, they could learn so much from people like you. I have seen so many testimonials about the benefits of a vegan diet. I have a joint condition and take turmeric as it's a natural anti-inflammatory, and when I told the rheumatologist she gave me a funny look. I initially took the turmeric for my skin but noticed my joints weren't swelling as much and got less eczema flare ups. Have you tried this? Also aloe vera juice is meant to be good too.

[Robinwomb]

Thank you guys for sharing your experience about how your vegan diet has helped your rheumatoid arthritis. My husband is an omnivore and last year in June he was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. It was very scary because he was fine one day and the next his joints were grotesquely swollen and he was in so much pain. It went on for months and he rapidly deteriorated and I was scared for him. We thought he had contracted Lymes disease. We went to countless ERs and doctors getting him all sorts of tests and it was all complicated by his advanced HIV which he has had for 24 years (at one time it was full blown AIDS but thankfully the newer classes of meds have literally saved his life and he avoided the older AZT drug that was toxic to so many early victims of AIDS). He also had white spots on his lungs and the doctors were more concerned about that (found by accident). But the first ER doctor did run some tests which showed elevated rheumatoid factor. Eventually the rheumatoid arthritis was confirmed and he was started on prednisone. He had all kinds of tests (noninvasive and invasive) and the doctors never did figure out what the spots on his lungs were, even with biopsies of his lung tissues. The prednisone improved his condition dramatically but he puffed up from it and due to side effects and his HIV condition the doctors wanted him off it and they are being very conservative about the immune suppressing rheumatoid drugs due to the nature of his HIV and treatment for that. Very few HIV patients also have rheumatoid arthritis so doctors aren't sure how to treat but because of how the HIV drugs are actually causing an over response of the immune system more and more HIV patients are coming forward with autoimmune disorders and it is very very tricky to treat one without causing the other to become worse. I am trying very hard to get my husband to eat more fresh fruits and vegetables and he is eating more and more of my vegan meals but he still consumes loads of dairy which is the worst food for any type of arthritis. I do incorporate turmeric and also pineapple (has bromine which is an anti-inflammatory chemical) and more neutral/less acidic foods into his diet to try to help him. I tell him that drugs are not going to solve all his problems and that he should be doing everything in his power to help himself and a more vegan diet is going to help him. I think he needs to see some literature to be more convinced. He is such a meat and potatoes guy and it is like pulling tooth and nail to get him to eat vegetables. He is losing the ability to use his hands for the beautiful woodworking he does. Rheumatoid arthritis is such a horrible disease but so are the meds to treat it. I applaud you guys for fighting it in such a natural way. I hope more people come forward with positive stories. I am slowly getting through to my husband about veganism but it's like chipping away cement with a hammer. He is coming with me to a vegan activism event (walk for farm animals put on by Farm Sanctuary) in a few weeks so I guess that's progress.

[herbert]

Hi misosoup, I don't take either of these but have read about the benefits but what I do take is hemp seed oil in liquid or capsule form for the anti-inflammatory properties. I have also read about the benefits of wheatgrass juice as well for auto-immune diseases so all good stuff that's worth a try. Good luck with it all!

[herbert]

Hi Robinwomb, oh so sorry to hear about your plight for you and your husband and I can understand how frustrated and frightened it must all be. Looking back to when I was diagnosed at 32 it was a bolt out the blue and graduated from stiffness and swelling in my finger joints to waking up one day and not being able to get out of bed , pretty frightening stuff and I thought I would be destined to the wheelchair. The Doctors put me on the usual drug regime although I always refused to take steroids and somehow managed to stay off them. When Rituximab infusions were licenced in the UK ( very costly chemotherapy drugs ) I was offered these as I was considered a severe case. This drug was licenced for rheumatoid arthritis after cancer patients who suffered RA noticed a marked improvement. These were given to me in a low dose every six months and although I remained fairly active still had the usual flare ups and good and bad days and felt they were not as beneficial as I had hoped . So here I am now , having no more infusions and defying my consultant's advise not to go over the the six month mark as this could result in rapid deterioration. . I take a very low dose of methletrexate ( a much higher dose is normally recommended for severe cases ) and enjoy the daily benefits of a vegan diet which has been my real saviour and I am now leading a pretty active life and a mum to twin boys! Sorry if I've rambled on a bit but just wanted to give you the picture. But all in all I feel pretty angry how doctors remain so ignorant and ill informed about the benefits of a vegan diet when it comes to most diseases in favour of a lot of harmful, unnecessary and expensive drugs. I hope your husband will make the transition and reap the benefits, but I guess these things take time as most of us never adopted a vegan diet overnight. I wish you all the best....

[misosoup]

I too get very angry with doctors attitude to vegan diets, and diet in general. They just want to medicate because it's what they 'know'. When I told my rheumatologist I take turmeric, she gave me a 'look'. Can you imagine if it was just a case of change of diet and some natural remedies? It would shake up all they know. But their ego is too important, at the expense of patients who could benefit. I know that since turning vegan my acne and eczema has cleared up, my joints are less painful and I feel much healthier. My joint problems are from faulty connective tissue, rather than inflammatory, but I do get inflammation from joints rubbing against each other, and turmeric seems to help with that. I got into a 'heated exchange' with a friend yesterday, who was 'questioning' me on my diet- which I find infuriating as it's no-one else's business. They were 'wondering' if you can get all your nutrients and how 'angry' some vegans can be about it. It's so dismissive of stories like yours, people who have been healed through a vegan diet, yet people want hard facts. Who will do that? Which organization will sponsor a study into vegan diets? Have you thought of putting your story online, on a blog? May I ask, what prompted you do turn vegan? Or was it for ethical reasons, and health benefits were a surprise?

[herbert]

Yeah, I understand your frustration totally and I think you would be extremely lucky to find an understanding and well informed Rheumatologist. When I look back on my early diagnosis ( in my pre-vegan days ) I often wonder if I would have suffered the amount of irreversible joint damage if the right advice had been given instead of the usual choice of drugs that only treat the symptoms and have no positive affect on the disease. Being a qualified nurse myself up until 6 years ago I have seen the ignorance of Doctors and nurses and the inaccurate and harmful advise that was given on a daily basis and the increasing prevalence of diseases I dealt with on a daily basis were phenomenal ( I never came across one vegan ). So whether it be heart disease, diabetes , hypertension ( the list goes on ) the drugs were first and foremost and bit of inaccurate diet advise thrown in as a side-line. My attempts at educating people on the benefits were not always successful as people are so ingrained in their diet and what Doctors tell them. (Doctors being so indoctrinated by the rich pharmaceutical industry ; drug reps were there in abundance when I worked in general practice.) Other examples: attending a diabetic course where I sat in despair as the usual recommended dietary advise prevailed. Other times when I have been in hospital with my son and having a visit from the dietician because he is vegan ( a special diet as far as they are concerned ) It makes me wonder how these people can call themselves nutritionists. My son has just had a kidney operation and as expected it was careful planning and liaising with the catering department before his admission to ensure his vegan needs were catered for. As you might know yourself, hospital food is pretty appalling at the best of times and even on a children's kidney ward ; once again no mention of a vegan diet. ( animal protein is one of the major causes of impaired kidney function and kidney failure ) But as you say misosoup, all they want to do is medicate you , keep the drug companies happy and remain in their ignorant bubble at the expense of others. . As for the conversation with your friend ,yeah its does get pretty frustrating. If I ever mention to someone that I am vegan ( only if I have to ) it's usually greeted with complete silence or taken as a personal vendetta by the other person who suddenly becomes a 'nutritional' expert and feel it is their right to question your choices. . I do try and spread the word as much as I can ( when people are prepared to listen ) I haven't posted online but maybe that's something I should consider. Have you heard of the nutritional facts.org website by Dr Gregor, this guy is fantastic and I highly recommend you sign up if you haven't already, there is some brilliant advice on there about the benefits of a vegan diet with auto-immune diseases amongst others. As to why I am vegan; obviously health issues are a big part but it's the animals first and foremost that did it for me and nothing will equate to that. So good to hear you are having so much benefit from your good choices and I wish you all the best with it. Of course trying to get people on our side is an on-going battle and the wake up call is a long way off....