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Thread: What's the real definition for vegetarian and vegan?

  1. #51
    VeganAthlete's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote Ladygold View Post
    I completely agree with you vegetarian should at least mean herbivore and fish contrary to what some people think are not plants!!!!

    Its pretty obvious that many people want to use the names vegetarian or vegan but are not willing to do the work.
    I agree with you & Andy! I'm sorry, but that's the funniest thing I've heard in a while. I just had to bold it in red! That's too funny. Fish are living animals just like cows, chickens, piggies, and bunnies. If an organism has eyes, a mouth, a digestive system and does not rely on photosynthesis for energy and survival...chances are it's NOT a plant :P
    Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace (Schweitzer, 1952)

  2. #52

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    There is a big difference between being vegan and following a vegan diet.

    If you are vegan and don't wear leather, silk, wool or don't visit the zoo or the circus, I can't see a reason not to that isn't rooted in ethics. Doing a vegan diet only is not the same as being vegan because like you said vegans avoid animal products [the more correct description would be avoid animal exploitation though] and a focus on the diet part only obviously doesn't agree with that.


    I think we shouldn't redefine, or recap the definition when the Vegan Society has it all in one line:
    Perhaps, my philosophy is not to harm any living being and I suppose that's why I am considered a "vegan" however I am not militant about it nor do I like labels. My diet is vegan because the food is readily locally available and I have choices. My choices are environmental, my own personal health and well being as well as the health and well being of other beings.

    I don't understand how I have offended?

    I live in an area where human trafficking, child slaves and sex slaves are common place, I see the people rescued by the Thai Government every day on the TV and killing anything only leads to more suffering of all beings.

  3. #53

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote ChrisF View Post
    Perhaps, my philosophy is not to harm any living being and I suppose that's why I am considered a "vegan" however I am not militant about it nor do I like labels. My diet is vegan because the food is readily locally available and I have choices. My choices are environmental, my own personal health and well being as well as the health and well being of other beings.

    I don't understand how I have offended?
    Offended is a big word but you did narrow the meaning of veganism with the definition you provided:

    Vegans avoid all animal products. They don't eat eggs or dairy products.

    Not all exploitation of animals results in "animal products" that can be consumed. Of course anything marketed, sold, rented, provided, etc is a product but most people wouldn't consider the ponies at the beach a product, nor the non-human animals at the zoo, or those in the circus. They are all undeniable subject to exploitation however. Veganism extends further than just a diet, and with mainstream media being clueless and going round calling every celeb that parades in leather pumps with a dog in their handbag "vegan" because they want to lose weight or have a good dump after being constipated from animal based protein we have to make sure that what vegan stands for doesn't get diluted or indeed hollowed out to just a meaningless label for people to feel special about themselfs.

    You might not like labels, and I think many of us don't, but we shouldn't think of vegan as just a label. We should think of vegan as a strong brand name and protect it as such for it not to end up as 'vegetarian'. In most places arround the world vegetarian is now the default for ovo-lacto-pesco-vegetarian. When I see a vegan product I don't want to have to check what type of vegan is meant. Nor would it be benificial to non-human animals if vegan becomes to mean anything less than:

    Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose

    We should all send out a consitent message when people show an interest so not to misinform them or spread/feed misconceptions.


    Quote ChrisF View Post
    I live in an area where human trafficking, child slaves and sex slaves are common place, I see the people rescued by the Thai Government every day on the TV and killing anything only leads to more suffering of all beings.
    I don't see what this has to do with anything. Exploitation of non-human animals and human animals aren't mutually exclusive. That humans gets exploited can not be a justification for the exploitation of non-human animals. Nor can it be a reason to downplay exploitation of non-human animals or consider it of a lesser importance.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    I have no clue if I already said this but I personally would avoid using the word "vegan" as much as I can. I normally just say like "I don't need to torture animals to maintain living".

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote TheHRchannel View Post
    I have no clue if I already said this but I personally would avoid using the word "vegan" as much as I can. I normally just say like "I don't need to torture animals to maintain living".
    Is seems like that would keep you out of a lot of trouble as I am quickly learning. I guess I will adopt that philosophy as well.

  6. #56
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote TheHRchannel View Post
    I have no clue if I already said this but I personally would avoid using the word "vegan" as much as I can. I normally just say like "I don't need to torture animals to maintain living".
    I try to always mention the word vegan, even if I have a feeling that people don't know what it means - I never eg. order eg. 'plant based' meal without also mentioning the word vegan.

    Is seems like that would keep you out of a lot of trouble
    I've never gotten any trouble by mentioning vegan... what kind of trouble have you encountered? If people don't what vegan means, and I son't use the word, someone else will have to explain it later anyway. Why postpone that situation?

    "Ethical vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose, while dietary vegans or strict vegetarians eliminate them from their diet only"
    There can't be such a thing as a 'dietary vegan', because the term vegan itself covers more than diet.

    Quote ChrisF View Post

    Also keep in mind that not all people are vegetarians or vegans for ethical reasons.
    How can one decide to eg. avoid leather and fur for non-ethical reasons?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  7. #57

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    Default Re: What's the real definition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Some people avoid leather and fur because they don't like it, have an allergy to it or do not like the idea of wearing something that walked, crawled or swam. Other people have a limited choice because of region, economic status, availability or over all survival.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote ChrisF View Post
    Is seems like that would keep you out of a lot of trouble as I am quickly learning. I guess I will adopt that philosophy as well.
    I'd honestly avoid the label because overusing the word "vegan" may sound like you're just in it for labels.

  9. #59

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote TheHRchannel View Post
    I'd honestly avoid the label because overusing the word "vegan" may sound like you're just in it for labels.
    I should have mentioned I meant that in terms of speaking to people in English. If I were to tell someone here I was a vegan they would have no clue what I was talking about they tend to associate vegan with vegetarian there is no really distinction in the Thai language or the dietary habits as the majority of Thai vegetarians are in fact vegans, which sounds simply like "J" just tell anyone "ow gein j" and they will pretty much look at you with the highest esteem and say good for you. So actually using a label on a daily basis is defiantly out of the question, I don't actually think I have spoken the word "vegan" since my last flight back to Thailand from the USA 7 years ago when I was ordering my meal from the airline.

  10. #60
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote Korn View Post
    I try to always mention the word vegan, even if I have a feeling that people don't know what it means - I never eg. order eg. 'plant based' meal without also mentioning the word vegan.


    I've never gotten any trouble by mentioning vegan... what kind of trouble have you encountered? If people don't what vegan means, and I son't use the word, someone else will have to explain it later anyway. Why postpone that situation?

    There can't be such a thing as a 'dietary vegan', because the term vegan itself covers more than diet.
    All very true Korn. I see more problems when we try to avoid the terms "vegan" and "veganism" and/or we try to alter/dilute their meaning.

    Leedsveg

  11. #61
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    There used to be a local thing with the word vegan (and vegetarian) in all countries, until someone started to use these words.
    Quote ChrisF View Post
    Some people avoid leather and fur because they don't like it, have an allergy to it or do not like the idea of wearing something that walked, crawled or swam. Other people have a limited choice because of region, economic status, availability or over all survival.
    But this is a forum for vegans... And if someone would avoid animal products like fur or leather due to eg. an allergy, he wouldn't be a vegan, he would be allergic, right?
    Quote ChrisF View Post
    If I were to tell someone here I was a vegan they would have no clue what I was talking about they tend to associate vegan with vegetarian there is no really distinction in the Thai language or the dietary habits as the majority of Thai vegetarians are in fact vegans, which sounds simply like "J" just tell anyone "ow gein j" and they will pretty much look at you with the highest esteem and say good for you.
    Maybe there's a local thing with the word vegan in Thailand, but why not take the challenge and be a pioneer then? ;-) There's a lot of great, vegan Thai food dishes - but I've also seen many Thai dishes presented as 'vegetarian' which has animal products in it. So while 'vegan' doesn't describe a 'dietary habit', but a... viewpoint, it seems that it would be great if there would be one word, in all countries, to use which everybody would understood as 'free from any animal products' when used about food.

    What Thai word is vegan translated to in the 'Vegan Passport'?
    And what does ไม่มีผลิตภัณฑ์จากสัตว์ mean? There's discussion about being veggie in Thailand here...

    ---

    In general, I think it's good to try to keep the word 'vegetarian', when used about food, as vegan as possible, for the simple reason that terms like 'lacto-vegetarian' and 'lacto-ovo-vegetarian' already are quite well known. So - if one would need to explain vegan (again, when used about food only), one could say 'animal free - as in vegetarian, but not as in lacto-(ovo-)vegetarian. But since the word vegetarian partially has been 'polluted' by people who say 'I'm a vegetarian, but I eat fish', I think it's time to just use the word vegan instead - about food.

    What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?
    Vegan, when used about food, is a term that means food without any milk, meat, eggs, honey or any animal other products in it.

    When used about people, or the philosophy vegans support, the definition from The Vegan Society is still valid:

    The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and
    cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose
    ; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment.
    I must admit that I don't really understand how someone can claim to eat vegan for the environment, but not for the animals. That would be like saying 'Let's save the planet: the trees, leaves, oceans, air, soil... but the animals, fish and birds living in nature? Not important."
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  12. #62

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote leedsveg View Post
    All very true Korn. I see more problems when we try to avoid the terms "vegan" and "veganism" and/or we try to alter/dilute their meaning.

    Leedsveg
    Indeed. I also try to user the word "vegan" when explaining what I need.

    Best regards,
    Andy

  13. #63

    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Ha ha, "I'm vegetarian, but I eat fish", that has to be the weirdest comment ever!! I've also heard "I'm vegetarian, but I still eat turkey at christmas"... another weird one! My sister always says to her friends "my sister's vegan, that means she doesn't eat faces", which means I have to butt in with "or any other part of animals, or use any product that comes from animals"! It's strange the ideas people have of vegans or vegetarians...

  14. #64
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    Default Re: What's the real definition for vegetarian and vegan?

    I know vegetarians who eat fish (and meat for Christmas), and I don't understand it, but anyway I value their effort, because they want to stop killing animals but they seem kind of addicts to eat animals.

    At least, they don't close their eyes and they show some worries about animals, not like the most people.
    "No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly." Michel Eyquem de Montaigne.

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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote Vegaņa View Post
    I know vegetarians who eat fish (and meat for Christmas), and I don't understand it, but anyway I value their effort, because they want to stop killing animals but they seem kind of addicts to eat animals.

    At least, they don't close their eyes and they show some worries about animals, not like the most people.
    Quote Yellow_Curtain View Post
    Ha ha, "I'm vegetarian, but I eat fish", that has to be the weirdest comment ever!! I've also heard "I'm vegetarian, but I still eat turkey at christmas"... another weird one! My sister always says to her friends "my sister's vegan, that means she doesn't eat faces", which means I have to butt in with "or any other part of animals, or use any product that comes from animals"! It's strange the ideas people have of vegans or vegetarians...

    Those two post belongs more in the http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...eople-eat-meat thread.



    If vegetarians know about the issues and still choose to exploit animals just for their own pleasures I can't value their effort. I have more understanding for someone "who doesn't know better" or "who doesn't care" doing nothing than an informed person doing things halfassed or doing just enough to feel better about themselfs. If they are vegetarian for their own health I could give a rats ass about their effort because it doesn't mean anything from an ethical vegan perspective.

  16. #66
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: What's the real definition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote Vegaņa View Post
    I know vegetarians who eat fish (and meat for Christmas), and I don't understand it...
    It's quite simple really, they're not vegetarians, they're deluded omnivores.

    Leedsveg

  17. #67
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    Default Re: What's the real defenition for vegetarian and vegan?

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    Those two post belongs more in the http://www.veganforum.com/forums/sho...eople-eat-meat thread.



    If vegetarians know about the issues and still choose to exploit animals just for their own pleasures I can't value their effort. I have more understanding for someone "who doesn't know better" or "who doesn't care" doing nothing than an informed person doing things halfassed or doing just enough to feel better about themselfs. If they are vegetarian for their own health I could give a rats ass about their effort because it doesn't mean anything from an ethical vegan perspective.
    Maybe you are right... and sorry about my message out of place.
    "No one is exempt from talking nonsense; the mistake is to do it solemnly." Michel Eyquem de Montaigne.

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