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Thread: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

  1. #1
    Jakob
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    Default Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Well I share the vegan view that animals should be put trough as little suffering as possible, I eat and dress vegan. But since many years I'm initiated in a caribbean religion (Santería) which has animal sacrifice as an important ingredient. Then could I still call myself a vegan?

  2. #2
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Well I share the vegan view that animals should be put trough as little suffering as possible, I eat and dress vegan. But since many years I'm initiated in a caribbean religion (Santería) which has animal sacrifice as an important ingredient. Then could I still call myself a vegan?
    No.

    Leedsveg

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    I guess that would depend.

    If you follow that religion and there are some priests who do animal sacrifices (but you do not participate in it), then I guess you would be as vegan es somebody following another religion where many members consume animal products, and some potentially even ritually slaughter animals (kosher/halal/whatever). In that case I guess you can call yourself vegan.

    If you, however, actively attend a service where an animal is sacrificed as a participant or if you yourself take place in the killing, then I would have a hard time to see that as behaviour consistent with leading a vegan lifestyle. (I personally would also have a hard time to pursue such activities myself, as I would be appalled by it).

    However, I am still happy about that the fact that you do not use animals for food or clothing.

    Best regards,
    Andy

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    Ladygold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Well I share the vegan view that animals should be put trough as little suffering as possible, I eat and dress vegan. But since many years I'm initiated in a caribbean religion (Santería) which has animal sacrifice as an important ingredient. Then could I still call myself a vegan?
    This is what Vegan means to me: Vegans reject the commodity status of animals and the use of animal products for any purpose.

    So no.

    LG
    If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. ~ Jon Stewart .

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Vegans avoid exploiting animals as far as possible, so I suppose it's partly a question of what you define as "possible" - if you believe in this religion and feel that every aspect of its ritual must be adhered to then you might think it's not "possible" to avoid animal sacrifices.

    Still, as a vegan I would find a religion that demands animal sacrifice in this day and age very hard to believe in.

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    Ladygold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    My thoughts on this question are the same as mine above. This is from another train of thought.

    I was thinking that this is a good conversation to have with Omni’s and others. If you eat meat and actually only care about “suffering” of the animal and maybe only eat “happy meat” then they should have no issue with animal sacrifice really.

    (Yes a lot of quotes but it’s that or just rolling my eyes all the time lol)

    I also really am opposed to saying that only if you participated would you be at fault. That’s like saying I was in the room when the women was raped and benefited from it but since I didn’t actively do it I am not accountable?


    I think this is interesting because it’s “Religion” and many people will try to be PC and make it grey when it’s not to me.

    I will go out on a limb and say all religions should not kill things in its name. Be it animals / people.


    LG
    If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. ~ Jon Stewart .

  7. #7
    Jakob
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Well. of course you all gave me good answers, from an orthodox vegan point of view. But even christians drink wine, most probably with gelatine in it, at mass. So even a vegan trying to be christian is participating in animal slaughter, although the religious intent is to end unnecessary suffering.
    Furthermore, I think it is a bit weird to try and civilize away african elements from religion, as if we were wanting to educate primitives, again. One can ask oneself if it would be veganly responsible to let american indians go back to their old ways of living, for instance. Could veganism in some cases even be a way to further old colonial ideas into supposedly modern times, I wonder. Sorry for being provocative, but it is really important to question and think about convictions, in order not to let them be fundamentalist. Have a good day, all of you!

  8. #8
    Jakob
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Well I don't have any fix opinion, the area of thought is so vast. But I don't like the thought about western vegans trying to "civilize away" the animal sacrifices of other cultures. On the other hand vegans might of course appear in every culture, but isn't it the western one that has most vegans? And what right do we have to continue the old colonial eduaction of "the primitives", if you get what I'm after.

    Quote Ladygold View Post
    My thoughts on this question are the same as mine above. This is from another train of thought.

    I was thinking that this is a good conversation to have with Omni’s and others. If you eat meat and actually only care about “suffering” of the animal and maybe only eat “happy meat” then they should have no issue with animal sacrifice really.

    (Yes a lot of quotes but it’s that or just rolling my eyes all the time lol)

    I also really am opposed to saying that only if you participated would you be at fault. That’s like saying I was in the room when the women was raped and benefited from it but since I didn’t actively do it I am not accountable?


    I think this is interesting because it’s “Religion” and many people will try to be PC and make it grey when it’s not to me.

    I will go out on a limb and say all religions should not kill things in its name. Be it animals / people.


    LG

  9. #9
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Ladygold View Post
    I think this is interesting because it’s “Religion” and many people will try to be PC and make it grey when it’s not to me.
    I agree Lg. Why do politicians/laws give special consideration to people with unprovable religious beliefs but not to people with unprovable ethical beliefs? It makes absolutely no sense.

    Leedsveg

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    an orthodox vegan point of view.
    But there aren't such a thing as 'orthodox' vs. 'non-orthodox' vegans. All vegans are against killing/harming other living beings. And why would a person who is against killing animals join a club where killing animals where part of the programme in the first place - and participate in that?

    People choose which lifestyle, religion etc, they follow, so nobody can't really blame it on the religion.

    A person who is against violence against humans wouldn't join some violent cult, not even if 'only' one person a year would be attacked. And I don't say this becuase I care equally much for all living beings on the planet - or because the killing of a mouse or a mosquito would bother be as much the killing of a human - I only say it because if I'm against somehing, I simply won't join or 'believe in' something ith views that are in conflict with my own views.

    Then could I still call myself a vegan?
    If you are directly or indirectly involved in killing animals, you can't - but the main point, IMO, isn't really whether you call yourself a vegan or not as such, but that follow your own viewpoints as much as possible... and it's just as easy to say 'I eat vegan food' as to say 'I am a vegan'.


    But even christians drink wine, most probably with gelatine in it, at mass.
    IMHO that's not really relevant... and certainly doesn't serve as a valid way to justify more harm against (more/other) animals. One just can't use the possible existence of gelatine in someones drink as a way to justify slaughtering an innocent creature. As a matter of fact, it shold be the other way round: if a person feels that it's wrong to use animal products like gelatine, he should rather stop using geatine than using his use of gelatine as an excuse to do something else he feels is (more) wrong.




    Furthermore, I think it is a bit weird to try and civilize away african elements from religion, as if we were wanting to educate primitives, again.
    IMO it's everything but weird to support other living beings' right to a happy life - even when communicating with people who live where animal sacrifice would be common. Respect for other living beings goes beyond geography or fixed traditions.

    Could veganism in some cases even be a way to further old colonial ideas into supposedly modern times, I wonder.
    It's the other way round: lifestyle views/religions/ethical-philosophical views have existed in non-Western countries long before words like 'vegetarianism' came to the West.

    Quote Jakob View Post
    I don't like the thought about western vegans trying to "civilize away" the animal sacrifices of other cultures.
    Why not? Is harming human or non-human animals more acceptable if it happens far away from us, or is killing living beings more OK if a group of humans have been doing that for a long time? A bad, old tradition is still bad even if it's a 'tradition', isn't it? And it doesn't really help if the tradition is old.

    isn't it the western one that has most vegans? And what right do we have to continue the old colonial eduaction of "the primitives", if you get what I'm after.
    Being against slaugthering (etc) of animals certainly isn't limited to veganism - it's a common viewpoint among many Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Rastas etc.

    'Respect All Life' is an essential part of millions of (non-Western) humans' lifestyle and philosophy. There are hundreds of millions of vegetarians in India alone, and they don't eat meat to lower their cholesterol or reduce their diabetes risk...


    I can't see anything wrong with holding that view that humans in all countries should respect other living beings, no matter how long they/we have not being doing that - or where these humans live. 'Tradition' has been used as an excuse for slavery, for supressing women, for cruelty against animals and so on – for ages. Time to move on.

    A propos 'civilizing the primitives" (!)...

    Reporter: “Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of Western civilization?”
    Gandhi: “I think it would be a good idea!”
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  11. #11
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Well. of course you all gave me good answers, from an orthodox vegan point of view. But even christians drink wine, most probably with gelatine in it, at mass. So even a vegan trying to be christian is participating in animal slaughter, although the religious intent is to end unnecessary suffering.
    No, vegan Christians do not wilfully drink wine with animal products in it.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

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    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Furthermore, I think it is a bit weird to try and civilize away african elements from religion, as if we were wanting to educate primitives, again. One can ask oneself if it would be veganly responsible to let american indians go back to their old ways of living, for instance. Could veganism in some cases even be a way to further old colonial ideas into supposedly modern times, I wonder.

    Who "wants to educate primitives", and who exactly are you referring to as "primitives"?

    I gather adherents of some other religions have changed their practice to be more animal friendly - for example I believe a growing number of Hindus are adopting veganism. Can the religion you are talking about not accommodate any form of change or independent thinking?

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    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    There is NEVER an excuse to kill..............especially in the name of religion.
    I like Sandra, she keeps making me giggle. Daft little lady - Frosty

  14. #14
    Jakob
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Thanks for thoughts. And you've ended it with my favorite quote.

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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Well I share the vegan view that animals should be put trough as little suffering as possible, I eat and dress vegan. But since many years I'm initiated in a caribbean religion (Santería) which has animal sacrifice as an important ingredient. Then could I still call myself a vegan?
    From what I know about Santeria the animal sacrifice is to feed the Orisha (god) and then the animal parts are cooked and fed to everyone and is considered a sharing with the Orisha, who only consumes the animal's blood, while the worshipers eat the rest. Unless this was a healing ritual and the meat is considered to have the sickness.

    I'm curious since this seems to be a big part of the whole ritual how is it taken when you do not eat the animal?

    LG
    If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. ~ Jon Stewart .

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    Ladygold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote Jakob View Post
    Well I don't have any fix opinion, the area of thought is so vast. But I don't like the thought about western vegans trying to "civilize away" the animal sacrifices of other cultures. On the other hand vegans might of course appear in every culture, but isn't it the western one that has most vegans? And what right do we have to continue the old colonial eduaction of "the primitives", if you get what I'm after.
    Not sure exactly what you mean by the "primitives" please elaborate.

    Just to be clear I also am against treating women as lower then men and selling children and stoning people and animal torture and even killing them for gods and a whole bunch of stuff regardless of where in the world they happen...even if I was born in Canada.

    I would watch the whole part about "western vegans" myself. Granted I am a few generations Canadian but not everyone on here is and assuming makes an ass out of you and me

    LG
    If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. ~ Jon Stewart .

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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Western (or eastern) vegans are no more trying to "civilize away" killing animals for religious reasons than they are trying to "civilize away" the use of animals for any other purpose. In other words, yes, they are, and it is a good thing IMO.

    If Western meat-eaters, however, tell you that you must not kill animals for religious purposes (but that it is fine to do it for food or sport), then you have every right to call them hypocrites.

    Just my view.

    Best regards,
    Andy

  18. #18
    Jakob
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Dear Ladygold. Thanks for wondering. The only meat you have to taste a little of, is as far as I'm concerned, the meat associated with your guardian angel, or orisha. It's regarded as an exception in your new life, and never to be tasted again. Of course unthinkable if you're one hundred percent against all possible killing of animals (done by human beings). Not sure I've given you the answer you need, hope I have.
    By "educating primitives" I was just ironically referring to old colonial attitudes, I'm sure you know what I mean. And I was not really accusing vegans of being colonial, just pointing out the problem as I see and feel it, when a western vegan is trying to stop a voodoo-practitoner from doing her/his religous convictions - their relations with the invisible. But the discussion could of course be endless depending on where you're coming from, personally and ideologically. I do respect vegans/veganism but I also respect (and believe in) an ancient african practice. This goes beyond normal logic. Perhaps you have to "overstand" (like the rastafarians) instead of understand it. I have no satisfying quick answer, neither to myself nor to others. But it's pretty clear to me now that I could not be considered or consider myself a vegan. Just that I eat vegan food, as long as my religion doesn't ask me to do otherwise.

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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    If my religion asked me to do something that I morally disagreed with I would not follow that religion.

    just my two cents.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  20. #20
    leedsveg
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    If my religion asked me to do something that I morally disagreed with I would not follow that religion.

    just my two cents.
    Same here missbettie. So many varied interpretations of what "God wants of us" and they can't all be right, maybe not one of them is?

    Leedsveg

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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Quote missbettie View Post
    If my religion asked me to do something that I morally disagreed with I would not follow that religion.
    I guess that might be easier said than done for many people - depending on how religious you are.

    But I am one of those persons who have decided that they do not believe in / agree with the religion that was bestowed on them by their parents, so I decided to quit. That might be much more difficult for others in other circumstances.

    Nevertheless, I am happy that Jakob is eating mainly vegan and am interested in hearing his comments on this and other discussions.

    Best regards,
    Andy

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    ^ True.

    We can only speak for ourselves.
    "i'm rejecting my reflection, cause i hate the way it judges me."

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    @Jacob thanks for the information I find religion fascinating. I chose Buddhism as my faith years ago and I know it’s not a coincidence I picked one that fits my life view. I do know people that call themselves herbivores (or herbies which I think is cute lol) and also people that follow a plant based diet. Either way you not eating animals will of course save lives which is always a good thing in my book


    I have a strong faith myself and I do not believe in "God / Gods” and don’t see the point about how “ancient” a religion or philosophy is. To me it would be like saying women were property for years and years so that proves its right…..hmm nope.

    I love self responsibility and what freaks me out about when people use religion as a reasoning to do things self-accountability often flies out the window.

    It’s like my rule for racism if you were brought up racist I will give you a few years to figure things out for yourself. As soon as you’re able to read what you want to and explore the world the clocks starts ticking on how long you can use the excuse “but I was raised that way”.

    Granted you do not seem to be doing this at all and this is one of my most respectful conversations that merged religion and veganism…hell we should all throw in sex and politics and see how it all turns out


    LG
    If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. ~ Jon Stewart .

  24. #24
    Jakob
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    Default Re: Vegan vs animal sacrifice?

    Hi Andy (and everybody else interested, thanks for participating in the discussion). Not sure what you wished me to comment upon, but when it comes to my religion, it is something I hit upon whilst being in Caracas, through my associations there. I was first a little afraid of it, but quickly became accustomed to the idea of being a practitioner. It is not a religion that gives you a lot of strict rules to follow and its advices are personal and based upon who you are and where you stand in life. It's also very gay-friendly, as opposed to many other spiritual paths. (I am gay.) It liberated something in me, has helped me a lot and I don't feel the need to change it, since it seems to be a very wise stunningly accurate religion (when it comes to spiritual and other kinds of advice). I don't however believe it's a religion for everyone, or that there is any "right way". Fundamentalism is not my thing. I think Truth is too big for any religion, ideology or person to hold. We all must find our own way. In my case it felt more like the religion found me than the other way around.

    Love and peace

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