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Thread: Australia Vegan Organic

  1. #1
    airalien
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    Default Australia Vegan Organic

    Hi,

    I was just wondering if anyone from Australia (I'm in W.A.) had any idea if there are any vegan organic farms here? Is there anywhere that sells vegan organic?

    If there aren't any vegan organic produce available here, does anyone have a special shop or farm you get your organic fruit/veggies?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    maariak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    When I used to live in WA there were large markets near Freemantle. I guess it depends where you are. You could always grow some of your own produce, which is always the best for organic, seeing as you grow it yourself and know what chemicals (if any) are in your garden/care.

  3. #3
    airalien
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Thanks maariak. At the moment I can't grow my own unless there are ways to grow them inside your house? Are there anythings that you can grow without an outside garden?

    Are there any vegan organic or organic produce at the fremantle markets?

  4. #4
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Have you tried sprouting seeds (such as alfalfa or mustard) and beans (such as mung beans)? You only need water and a suitable container for that and you can do it inside (and get results in days). There are a few threads about that on the forum if you search. http://sprout.net.au/sprouting.html?cat=32

    You can try growing herbs and salad plants on a windowsill, too.

  5. #5
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    You could try hydroponics as well, with LED grow lights it wouldn't cost that much in the long run (unless you need heating) but the initial outlay wouldn't be cheap.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote airalien View Post
    Are there any vegan organic or organic produce at the fremantle markets?
    I lived there quiet a few years ago, so i am unsure as to what produce they will have now. It would be a good place to check out though, as they always have a lot of fresh produce.

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    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote airalien View Post
    At the moment I can't grow my own unless there are ways to grow them inside your house? Are there anythings that you can grow without an outside garden?
    There are products for growing in windows in urban environments. It's good for herbs and the like, and you might be able to manage enough vegetables to supplement your other purchases.

    Quote Risker View Post
    You could try hydroponics as well, with LED grow lights it wouldn't cost that much in the long run (unless you need heating) but the initial outlay wouldn't be cheap.
    Electricity costs can be pretty high, but aside from that if you're eating organic for ethical/environmental reasons, this would kind of counteract that unless you're using green energy (burnt fuel in producing that electricity is probably going to be more than transit for non-local food).

    Install solar panels to power to LEDs and you might have something (although it seems kind of silly to convert sunlight into electricity only to convert it back to light).

  8. #8
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    ^ You can get LED grow lights that run on as little as 2w each so the electricity usage would be negligible.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  9. #9
    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote Risker View Post
    ^ You can get LED grow lights that run on as little as 2w each so the electricity usage would be negligible.
    With respect, two watts will not grow a food crop; you'd need quite a few of them. That would only be enough for a small house plant.

    LEDs do not violate conservation of energy- if you want a hundred watts of light, you have to use at least a hundred watts of electricity (with inefficient bulbs, it's more than that because there is more waste heat). Contrary to popular belief, LEDs are not very much more efficient than fluorescent bulbs with mirrored backing (though they are more environmentally friendly due to lack of heavy metals).

    Conservatively, in cloudy Northern Europe, the Earth receives an average of about 100 watts per square meter, and you're going to need at least 1/10th an acre to feed yourself on *potatoes*- that's over 400 square meters times 100 watts, or an average of 40 Kilowatts power usage (the average home uses an average of one kilowatt).

    Assuming twelve cents U.S. per kWh, that would cost over $40,000 a year. For enough potatoes. To feed one person. That's more than most people make, not considering other expenses.

    Being immensely generous with all of the numbers, you might be able to cut that down to 10% (sweet deals with the power company, slightly increase yield from extended growing season, focusing the light on the most useful part of the spectrum, etc.), but given that simply buying the amount of organic potatoes that should produce would be well under $2,000, it doesn't seem very practical.

  10. #10
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    ^ I wasn't suggesting growing ALL the food indoors, just a method that it can be done by. I think you're taking it a bit far to suggest otherwise.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  11. #11
    airalien
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote vepurusg View Post
    With respect, two watts will not grow a food crop; you'd need quite a few of them. That would only be enough for a small house plant.

    LEDs do not violate conservation of energy- if you want a hundred watts of light, you have to use at least a hundred watts of electricity (with inefficient bulbs, it's more than that because there is more waste heat). Contrary to popular belief, LEDs are not very much more efficient than fluorescent bulbs with mirrored backing (though they are more environmentally friendly due to lack of heavy metals).

    Conservatively, in cloudy Northern Europe, the Earth receives an average of about 100 watts per square meter, and you're going to need at least 1/10th an acre to feed yourself on *potatoes*- that's over 400 square meters times 100 watts, or an average of 40 Kilowatts power usage (the average home uses an average of one kilowatt).

    Assuming twelve cents U.S. per kWh, that would cost over $40,000 a year. For enough potatoes. To feed one person. That's more than most people make, not considering other expenses.

    Being immensely generous with all of the numbers, you might be able to cut that down to 10% (sweet deals with the power company, slightly increase yield from extended growing season, focusing the light on the most useful part of the spectrum, etc.), but given that simply buying the amount of organic potatoes that should produce would be well under $2,000, it doesn't seem very practical.
    Ah thanks guys. Yeah, I wouldn't want to do more harm than good.

    I will look this up but just in case someone has an opinion; what is the minimum one would have to eat living on just home grown food? What would an average day look like (lunch: potato, etc?)

    Silly questions but I have no idea - can you feed yourself on just potatoes? If not what's the minimum amount of different fruit/veg (and what would they be) I would need to grow to stay healthy?)

    Again I better start reading about it but I can't grow too much without growing outside.

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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    If you ate about 2kg of potatoes (with skins) you'd be getting 2000kcal, 60g protein and atleast RDA of most vitamins and minerals. Some that would be lacking however are calcium (300mg - RDAs vary a lot), zinc (8mg - 40% RDA), selenium (8mcg - 20% RDA), vitamin K (40mcg - 40% RDA), vitamin E (none) and vitamin A (none).

    The ones that are lacking are however all fairly easy to obtain by adding very small amounts of other types of foods, a few grams of carrot will give you all the vitamin A you need for example.

    Potatoes get a bad rap due to the unhealthy ways that people prepare them, but in themselves they are a perfectly suitable staple food and have been relied upon many times during history for this very purpose.

    Values from: http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/2770/2

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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    I like to look at the "Nutrient density" ratio devised by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, i.e. dividing the nutrients in a certain foodstuff by its calories.

    http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article17.aspx

    By this ratio, potatoes and other "starchy vegetables" are not as good as other (non starchy, but especially leafy green vegetables), but they are of course much more healthy than any kind of animal product.

    Best regards,
    Andy

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    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote Risker View Post
    ^ I wasn't suggesting growing ALL the food indoors, just a method that it can be done by. I think you're taking it a bit far to suggest otherwise.
    Sorry, but...I think you missed my point entirely

  15. #15
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote vepurusg View Post
    Sorry, but...I think you missed my point entirely
    As you did mine.
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  16. #16
    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote Risker View Post
    As you did mine.
    I'm sorry you feel that way.

    I thought your point was that one could grow some of one's own organic produce, particularly hydroponically, inside with an investment in the right equipment. I did not disagree with this point.

    I did not interpret your post to mean that one should have to grow all of one's own food by this method, but I did interpret your post to suggest that the practice of growing some (any amount of) food by this method would be a practical and ethical endeavor. Did I misinterpret your post on that point? If so, what was your meaning?

  17. #17
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote airalien View Post
    Silly questions but I have no idea - can you feed yourself on just potatoes?
    I'm sure this is just a hypothetical question but I think it would be a lousy idea to try. Personally I think the best way of staying healthy is to eat as varied a diet as you can. Scientists don't yet know all there is to know about nutrition and there may be some important nutrients that they're not yet aware of so common sense says that by eating as many different plants as you can you stand the best chance of not missing out on anything.

    I have also read that by eating too much of any one food you risk developing a sensitivity to it. It would be tragic to become sensitive to potatoes

    Here's an article about someone who tried a potato-only diet for a while which includes a few comments on what he might have missed out on: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11864290

  18. #18
    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Quote harpy View Post
    Scientists don't yet know all there is to know about nutrition and there may be some important nutrients that they're not yet aware of so common sense says that by eating as many different plants as you can you stand the best chance of not missing out on anything.
    That's inaccurate. We know all of the nutrients. There are, of course, other good reasons not to eat a potato only diet:

    A potato only diet would be deficient in b-12 and a few other nutrients as mentioned in another post (but it wouldn't take much in the way of other vegetables to make up for that).

    Hypothetically, if you ate more than 2k Calories, burning off the rest through exercise, you might be able to make up for everything aside from the b-12.
    If you ate slightly dirty potatoes, you'd probably even be good on b-12.

    I'd have to make a spreadsheet to figure out how much you'd have to eat, but somebody else has probably already done it somewhere if you search for it. Personally, I'm not that curious

    It's just easier (and more delicious) to eat a large variety of fruits and vegetables, since there's no need to only eat potatoes.



    To anybody reading: Please don't ever let meat eaters tell you that we don't totally understand human nutritional needs. (It's a common meat-eater excuse)


    Quote harpy View Post
    I have also read that by eating too much of any one food you risk developing a sensitivity to it. It would be tragic to become sensitive to potatoes
    I'd take those kinds of accounts with a grain of salt too... the concept of acquired food allergy due to over-consumption is rather dubious, and in the very least blown way out of proportion compared to the actual risks.

    Increased chance of developing an allergy in adulthood is very small if you've been regularly exposed to a substance your whole life.

    If you tried to make yourself allergic to potatoes by eating them, succeeding would be like winning the lottery. Sure, the more tickets you buy, the higher your chances; but the chances are so very small (to begin with, and still) that you'll probably never actually win it.

    It's a waste of money with the lottery, and it's a waste of worry with food- just worry about getting good nutrition, and more likely dangers such as getting struck by lightning.
    Last edited by vepurusg; Dec 24th, 2011 at 03:29 AM. Reason: Too off topic, shortened

  19. #19
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    I don't agree with picking on people, but I also don't regard disagreement as "picking on", so go ahead

    I disagree with your statement that "We know exactly and precisely what the human body needs to function quite long term". For example, B12 was identified relatively recently, and there is an ongoing debate about what are valid sources of it. There is no way of knowing whether or not further nutrients may be identified in future. So I would stand by the statement that it's prudent to eat as wide a range of plant foods as possible. (ETA I take the point about patients on drips but I expect you would agree that keeping someone alive for a few months or years isn't quite like keeping someone healthy for a lifetime?)

    However, I agree that we don't need to eat animal products. It cannot be the case that we need animal products to be healthy, because there are lifelong vegans who are healthy.

    Regarding my credentials, I haven't studied nutrition, but I have a BSc and and MSc (both with some biological content) and therefore feel as qualified as the average person to evaluate science-related statements.

    EagainTA hedgehog pic is of a wild one visiting our garden for a drink.
    Last edited by harpy; Dec 22nd, 2011 at 12:08 PM.

  20. #20
    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Off topic.

    Sorry Airalien.
    Last edited by vepurusg; Dec 24th, 2011 at 03:18 AM. Reason: Off topic

  21. #21
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    I would be very interested to know what I have said that makes you think I am anti-science. It it because you think a claim that scientists don't know everything there is to know about a subject implies some deficiency in the scientific method? If so I think that is a misconception: it would be unscientific to claim to know everything about a question - a scientific hypothesis is only provisional, while you're waiting for a better one.

    The fact that scientists continue to research areas like, for example, the possible relationship between specific plants such as brassicas and cancer implies they believe there is still important new information to be discovered about nutrition. Whether or not that involves new substances, or just new properties of already known substances or combinations of substances, some of those discoveries could be important.


    TBH I don't think it's all that important to this thread whether there are new substances to be discovered or not (though my feeling is still that we can't know whether that will happen). The important point as far as I'm concerned is that it I think it is unwise to recommend, or appear to recommend, a diet that is substantially based on a single item. Eating a varied diet is the recommendation of most vegan authorities as well as bodies like the American Dietetic Association which says "Choose a variety of foods, including whole grains, vegetables, fruits, legumes, nuts, seeds..."

    Perhaps you agree, though, as you have said in another thread "As a rule of thumb... some diversity in diet is good"?
    Last edited by harpy; Dec 22nd, 2011 at 06:17 PM. Reason: better links

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    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Off topic

    Sorry Airalien.
    Last edited by vepurusg; Dec 24th, 2011 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Off topic

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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    To answer Airalien original question. Most areas in the UK seem to have organic veg box schemes, maybe they have something like that in your area. This website might be useful http://www.organicfooddirectory.com....h-results.html

  24. #24
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    vepurusg, thanks for trying to correct my reasoning. I'm sure you will appreciate my returning the favour by pointing out that you appear to be committing the fallacy of argumentum ad consequentiam .

    You think the proposition (A) that there is a lot we don't yet know about nutrition (a generalisation of the original suggestion that some nutrients have yet to be identified) implies not just (B) that it is prudent to eat a good variety of plant foods, but that (C) it is prudent to eat a good variety of foods including animal products. Understandably you don't like consequence (C) - obviously nobody here would - but you then make the mistake of trying to argue against (A) because of its supposed consequence, which is the first place where your logic is faulty.

    Fortunately however you have made a second error. (C) doesn't follow from (A) at all - to see some of the reasons why not, try substituting "poison", "confectionery" and "human flesh" for "animal products". This is fortunate because you wouldn't get far arguing against (A) with anyone who is interested in nutritional research and has read about (for example) recent work on PQQ, flavonoids, "omics" in relation to nutrition and so on.

    I think we have taken airalien's thread far enough off topic so if you would like to discuss it some more I suggest you start a new thread. I don't promise to join in but I expect others will
    Last edited by harpy; Dec 23rd, 2011 at 10:21 PM.

  25. #25
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    What I take issue with is the suggestion that there's any reasonable likelihood that there would be some unknown nutrient that we require which in itself would make a diet which is otherwise ideal on paper insufficient.
    Hi, Vepursug,
    has anyone suggested that there's a reasonable likelihood that there would be some unknown nutrient that we require which would make, say, the vegan diet insufficent? Can you quote that suggestion?

    And for the records - vitamin B12 was isolated and identified in 1948 and was the last known vitamin to be identified (with x-ray, due to it's size!). The suggestion - coined by the Vegan Society - that humans should avoid all animal products came before B12 was identified.


    I hope there are no hard feelings, but I had to say something. By the way, your avatar is super cute! Is he/she your companion?

    To anybody reading: Please don't ever let meat eaters tell you that we don't totally understand human nutritional needs.
    The scientific 'truth' about which nutrients we need, in which amounts we need them, and in which ways these nutrients affect our lives, all depends on which scientist you ask and when you ask them. This is is illsutrated eg. by the fact that the recommended minimum intake of certain nutrients vary a lot from country to country (the same goes for the maximum allowed amount of a nutrient that can be sold per-pill). And - again - re. "totally understanding human nutritional needs": If scientists, collectively and 'totally' would have understood humans nutritial needs, they wouldn't disagree as much as they do. And there would exist hundreds/thousands of reports concluding that 'more research is needed'. I must have been looking at thousands of scientic reports, and haven't seen any of them conclude that "we know totally understand human nutritional needs". It's very common for scientists to look at their research and analysis as an ongoing process; a part of a big puzzle, or some kind of troubleshooting process which many others also are part-taking in. Not only that, but I think that that very topic has very little to do with what the above posts are about.

    But there's no reason to assume that we need to eat meat to get the nutrients we need.

    You can't know that there's not some micro-nutrient that those vegans got from their mothers' breast milk that has kept them alive, and originally came from meat.
    In parts of the world where meat hasn't been eaten - by a child's parents, grandparents, grand-grandparents etc., for many generations - we definitely should have a clue. But I think the many examples posted to illustrate one's viewpoints here ("what if they all were eating meat when nobody was watching?") etc confuses this thread.

    And re. the imaginary potatoe-only diet: we already know enough to warn against attempting such a diet.

    If you do insist on rejecting the overwhelming probability of modern scientific consensus on human nutrition[...]
    I must have read most of Harpy's posts on this forum, and haven't seen anything ever suggesting that she "insist on rejecting the probability..." etc.

    It would be tragic to become sensitive to potatoes
    It seems that you may have missed the smiely in that statement, vpurusg.
    I really fail to understand why you have problems with in Harpy's posts. Maybe you can post a short, simple resume of your viewpoints (with quotes, if you refer to what others have posted)?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  26. #26
    vepurusg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Ah, you misunderstood my argument completely.

    I PMed you my reply.


    Sorry for the OT posts airalien.
    Last edited by vepurusg; Dec 24th, 2011 at 03:46 AM. Reason: Off topic.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Australia Vegan Organic

    Hi Korn,

    The discussion is actually pretty complicated, so I can't easily summarize. Suffice it to say I'm nit-picking, but I think it's an important nit to pick.

    It is really cool about the discovery of b12! I'm glad you found it interesting too It's one of my favourite science-history dramas- ranks up there with early quantum physics and the debates between Bohr and Einstein.

    Quote Korn View Post
    Hi, Vepursug,
    has anyone suggested that there's a reasonable likelihood that there would be some unknown nutrient that we require which would make, say, the vegan diet insufficent? Can you quote that suggestion?
    I hope not here, but countless meat-eaters I have talked to have done so.

    Quote Korn View Post
    And - again - re. "totally understanding human nutritional needs": If scientists, collectively and 'totally' would have understood humans nutritial needs, they wouldn't disagree as much as they do.
    Debate tends to revolve around smaller details of optimal nutrition with regards to metabolic stress and biproducts from different caloric sources, the relative bioavailability of different sources of nutrients, and the effects and desirability of different biologically active non-nutrient components of foods. Nutritional needs are generally quoted as a conservative range based on our understandings of the differences between different people, and probable absorption. There are many matters of secondary complexity that arise in nutrition- the idea that there are other essential macro or micro nutrients simply isn't one of them.

    I hope that helps clarify the situation for you

    Quote Korn View Post
    Not only that, but I think that that very topic has very little to do with what the above posts are about.
    It's related to airalien's question:

    Quote airalien View Post
    Silly questions but I have no idea - can you feed yourself on just potatoes? If not what's the minimum amount of different fruit/veg (and what would they be) I would need to grow to stay healthy?)
    Although the discussion probably goes well beyond the answer, and should probably be in a different thread if it were to continue. I would be pro-splitting.

    Quote Korn View Post
    But there's no reason to assume that we need to eat meat to get the nutrients we need.
    I agree. Certainly, there isn't any reason to assume that.


    Quote Korn View Post
    I really fail to understand why you have problems with in Harpy's posts. Maybe you can post a short, simple resume of your viewpoints (with quotes, if you refer to what others have posted)?
    Harpy's posts are generally fantastic. I'm just nitpicking one particular comment. To put it as simply as possible:

    Neither Harpy nor I believe that there is any reason to assume that we need to eat meat (of course).
    I believe that Harpy's comment/the reasoning she used in conjuction with the facts inadvertently condones this assumption as a precaution.
    I would like Harpy to understand my argument, and consider wording such comments more carefully in the future so as not to cause confusion.

    If she doesn't want to, that's her choice. I just wanted to make my point so she could consider it. It's not the end of the world

    I'm done talking about it, though. It was not my intention to be drawn into any long conversations.

    Just edited my posts to save the walls of text in this thread and let it get back on topic.
    If anybody is curious about this, please feel free to PM me.
    Last edited by vepurusg; Dec 24th, 2011 at 04:06 AM.

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