Chia seeds tested, contain b12

[splodge]

Australian-grown chia seeds were found to contain 90 nanograms of b12 per 100g:

http://www.chia4life.com.au/chia/nutrition/

90 nanograms = 0.09mcg.

Vegans are thought to need 1mcg (1000ng) a day.

I think that all raw plant foods contain tiny amounts of b12 and overall if we ate a fully natural raw diet we would get everything we need.

Vitamin B12 In Foods

Micrograms per 100-gr edible Portion

Green Beans	0-0.2
Beets	0-0.1
Bread, Wholewheat	0.2-0.4
Carrots	0-0.1
Oats	0.3
Peas	0.0-1.0
Soybean Meal	0.2

[Risker]

5mcg+ is the currently accepted recommendation I believe, that would be about 5.5kg of chia seeds.

Even if it was 1mcg that would still be over a kilo of the seeds.

I think it's likely that most/all plant foods do contain an amount of b12, just not in reliable/substantial enough quantities to ignore the risk of deficiency.

[splodge]

I wasn't suggesting that chia seeds were a miracle source of B12, I just posted it as proof that most plant food contain tiny amounts of B12 and if we ate our natural raw diet, it would all add up.

The RDA is 1.2 - 2.4 mcg/day. This is for a typical carnist, who have unnaturally high levels of b12, and actually need more b12 than us. Also drinking alcohol means you need more b12. Vegans are thought to need 1mcg.

So if we ate and ounce of chia seeds we'd get between 1-3% of our daily needs. Then if we ate 30 other bits of fruit/vegetables/sprouts/seeds/nuts a day it would all add up.

[Risker]

The EC RDA is 3mcg and there are calls to raise it.

I think you're being overly optimistic and even with the tiny (very tiny) amounts added up I still think supplementing is a good idea.

[Korn]

Hi!

0.2-0.4 mcg B12 in wholewheat bread and up to 1 mcg B12 in "peas"? Not convinced. Hmmm.... Where do these numbers come from?

[Korn]

I just posted it as proof that most plant food contain tiny amounts of B12 and if we ate our natural raw diet, it would all add up.

But - with all due respect: referring to a unnamed source claiming that a certain type of seeds contain a small amount of B12 doesn't prove that most other plant food contain small amounts of B12 as well.

The RDA is 1.2 - 2.4 mcg/day. This is for a typical carnist, who have unnaturally high levels of b12, and actually need more b12 than us. Also drinking alcohol means you need more b12.

Vegans are thought to need 1mcg.

Vegans, historically, may have needed less or more, depending on a lot of factors - but: which source claims that vegans who live in a modern world today, rinsing/cooking their plants in chlorinated water, plants from poor soil etc etc etc need 1 mcg B12/day?

Then if we ate 30 other bits of fruit/vegetables/sprouts/seeds/nuts a day it would all add up.[/QUOTE]

Even if it was 1mcg that would still be over a kilo of the seeds.

That's very similar to what people have said about the claimed B12 amounts in organic spinach and other plants as well. I think Splodge's point is that if we could prove that enough plants had tiny amounts of active B12 in them, it wouldn't matter that the amounts were small.

I think it's likely that most/all plant foods do contain an amount of b12, just not in reliable/substantial enough quantities to ignore the risk of deficiency.

I think it's likely that many - but far from all - plants contain small amounts of B12, and that this B12 in a 100% natural world would be active, and that we in the same 'pure' world would at food that was fresh enough, always organic etc for these amounts of B12 to sum up to a level that was good enough for those people- if they lived on a equally 'pure' diet, and were consuming/using small or no amounts of sugar, tobacco, alcohol, coffee etc. And although they even may have gotten B12 from their water and - who knows - absorbing B12 from walking barefoot in nutrient rich soil, they would probably also need to also have some knowledge/consciousness about which plants to eat in order to remain healthy.

But our world is getting more and more denaturalized by the hour, and it's naive to assume that what would have worked perfectly centuries ago will work today, so to 'just know' or 'feel' that nature provides us with all we need today, when we eat, breath and drink lots of stuff which is all but natural/fresh.

And - Splodge, I just removed a new thread you just started and sent you a PM (including a copy of your post). Your post contained an attack on someone's attack on certain vegans who ignored the need for supplements. Not only did you not back your most important claims with any scientific reference, you also posted a personal attack on her ("awful women") - a confused woman who claims to be vegan but gives her kids eggs and cheese at the same time as she says that milk is unnatural and that supplements will do - and so on.

IMO, not only will your claims in your post (eg "I logically know that nature has given us everything we need") confirm that women's view on certain vegans, who just assume things without checking relevant facts, but you also help her spread her propaganda as a "vegan" who in reality recommends use of eggs and dairy products.

She wrote about raising kids, which of course requires an extra level of knowing what were are doing - whether people are vegans or not. But to claim, like you did in this thread, that regular bread contains 02-04 mcg B12, that peas (which peas) contain up to 1 mcg B12 etc without any scientific reference, and claim that there's something you just 'know' (knowledge which may be inaccurate/misleading) is potentially dangerous for both parents and others.

You wrote "If you are a vegan parent - raw or regular - please be assured that everything is available to your children", but also that you "think" that "all raw plant foods contain tiny amounts of b12 and overall if we ate a fully natural raw diet we would get everything we need."

Do you agree that it doesn't make sense to encourage parents to follow your advice based on something you just "think", and that such claims need scientific references? Veganism isn't a religion...

You may of course start new threads about each of the topics you mentioned, but not as a personal attack on another person who is not here (see our board rules), and again: it doesn't help much, today, to say that we just 'know' or 'feel' that we can get all we need from 'nature'.

Your opinions are totally welcome here, and you make some valid points - but IMO, the post I removed served more as PR for that woman's viewpoints than backing up what you 'logically know' with facts. She may want to provoke people who actually are vegans just to get attention and sell her stuff and ideas, and I'm pretty sure you gave her exactly the reaction she was looking for.

[Risker]

That's very similar to what people have said about the claimed B12 amounts in organic spinach and other plants as well. I think Splodge's point is that if we could prove that enough plants had tiny amounts of active B12 in them, it wouldn't matter that the amounts were small.

Yes, but if none of those plants contain it in a quantity that's feasible on it's own then how would it be any better combining with other plants that have less?

I think it's likely that many - but far from all - plants contain small amounts of B12

I'm not saying useful amounts, but if you get a large enough quantity of pretty much any plant there's bound to be some b12 in there, even if it's just through contamination.

[Korn]

I'm not suggesting we should combine with plants that 'have less'...

All I'm saying is that in an 'ideal' world, without all these B12 enemies we now are aware of, a typical day could start off like this:

You eat 100 g of plant A, which contains 0.2 mcg B12, you get 0.2 mcg B12. No need to eat 1000 g of that plant.
You drink 100 g of drink A, which contains 0.2 mcg B12, you get 0.2 mcg B12. No need to drink 1000 g of that drink.
You eat 50 g of plant B, which contains 0.1 mcg B12, you get 0.1 mcg B12. No need to eat 1000 g of that plant.
You eat 300 g of drink B, which contains 0.2 mcg B12, you get 0.6 mcg B12. No need to drink 1000 g of that drink.
You eat 150 g of plant C, which contains 0.2 mcg B12, you get 0.3 mcg B12. No need to eat 1000 g of that plant.
You drink 50 g of drink C, which contains 0.3 mcg B12, you get 0.15 mcg B12. No need to drink 1000 g of that drink.

In other words: we would already have gotten 1.55 mcg B12, without having to eat lots of bowls of some green plant, or a kg of some weird seed.

How much does an average human eat and drink during a day? If you set that up, and combine it with the amount of B12 we need, you'll find how the average B12 amount that food a drink we consume need to provide us with. And, re. our evolution, think of this: Until recently, humans didn't buy food in stores, ate at restaurants etc. Our days were a lot more physical, meaning that we probably ate and drank more than we need to now. This suggests that the average amount of B12 we'd need from food/drink needed to be lower - per weight unit - than it is today.

Dr. Herbert said that we needed a lot less than that during a day, and suggested that the Minimum Daily Requirement "to sustain normality is probably within the range of ~0.1 mcg'. But: that was without knowing about all the B12-antagonistic elements we know now, and he was also thinking about getting B12 from food, not supplements.

We know that at such small amounts, all or almost all of the B12 is properly absorbed (unlike from supplements, B12 rich animal products etc).
And according to both The Vegan Society and eg. these sources, we may get some amounts of B12 from various vegan sources. (Unfortunately, the reports in that thread don't help us much re. the bioactivity of this B12.)
The main problem today seems to be that both vegans and many non-vegans need to compensate for all the B12 'enemies', not the low B12 ratio in plants/water itself from 'nature's side' is too low.


http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/water/NU00283 :

The Institute of Medicine determined that an adequate intake (AI) for men is roughly 3 liters (about 13 cups) of total beverages a day. The AI for women is 2.2 liters (about 9 cups) of total beverages a day.

I haven't googled and checked if others suggest different numbers here yet, but look at this: if we drink, say, 2.6 liters a day, and humans ideally don't/didn't need to consume more than, say, 0.3 mcg a day, and if the various reports about B12 existing in water and other liquids are correct, we wouldn't need to get B12 from food at all - if the water had circa 0.011 mcg B12/100g. (B12 is usually measured per 100g).

But people don't drink only water anymore, we drink less liquids than before because we are less physical, the water is chlorinated, transported in copper tubes, often cooked, not fresh (B12 doesn't live forever), and people drink tea/sugar/coffee/alcohol which are not at all B12 neutral: rather, they are B12 antagonistic.

Since B12 can be absorbed through the skin, I wouldn't be surprised if a report pops up one day proving that just by exclusively bathing in lakes/rivers/ocean (or water from these sources), people's B12 levels would increase. (There are already articles out there about the 'dangers' involved in taking showers in chlorinated water).

That was water. Now, food: I've seen someone mention that an average person today eats about 2000g per food/day. If we combine that with 2600g liquid, that's 4600g. If we, in this example, say that we 'ideally' eg. 0.3 mcg B12/day in a natural world, this means that a person eating/drinking would need to contain and average of less than 0,007 mcg/100g B12/day.

If the Chia measurements are scientific/correct, and that B12 is active, the Chia seeds contain more B12 /100g than the B12 rate we need in our food/drinks *if all food and drinks contained B12*. If have seen the claim about B12 in Chia seeds before, but I never posted them, because I came across something suggesting that the numbers could be wrong. Have forgotten what that was.

The B12 requirement number used in this example is three times as high as what Dr. Herbert suggested that we need "to sustain normality", but much lower than the current Recommended Daily Average for most/average people. This RDA has to take a few things into consideration- for instance that not all consumed B12 is absorbed (this is true except when consuming very low levels), and that it's a known fact that we all are exposed to "B12 killers" regularly.


I have to go now... anyone with a calculator? Please let me know if my numbers are wrong.

[splodge]

The table was from the Heinz Handbook of nutrition, which I found here: http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-...-b12-hoax.html (read from the paragraph above the table downwards; everything above that is an eccentric rant about "Hygiene")

I've recently read loads of pages on the internet regarding b12, but can't remember what I searched and don't have the time to find them all again. Here are two more:

http://www.tcolincampbell.org/course...ash=135f525da5

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-...tamin-b12.html (unfortunately a doctor who writes a lot of these articles on this site seems quite eccentric, but ignore that and make up your own minds from the facts)

It was unnecessary and unprofessional to talk in detail about the other thread I made on here. You already PM'd me. It's irrelevant to this thread.

[Korn]

Hi, you have posted similar claims (with no sources/original sources) in several posts/threads - statements that IMO are related to each other... and it's ironic that when I do not explain to our members why a thread is deleted, it can cause negative reactions - and when I do it (like I did now), it creates a negative reaction as well.

You have claimed in things like "If you are a vegan parent - raw or regular - please be assured that everything is available to your children", and "think" that "all raw plant foods contain tiny amounts of b12 and overall if we ate a fully natural raw diet we would get everything we need", and keep ignoring that a belief that we can get all we need from vegan sources without evenr need supplements in an as denaturalized society as ours not only is potentially dangerous, but also deserves a public comment. I send you a PM, but I believe that some of the users who saw your new thread first and then that it was gone would like to know why. I could of course have done this in a separate thread.

The massive gap between how we live today and a 'natural' lifestyle is often ignored by certain vegans. For some reason this happens more often among raw vegans diet than other vegans, who a) still keep posting suggestions that no vegans ever need supplements and b) often avoid commenting the topic (that our water/soil/internal organs/air etc isn't really 'natural' anymore, and that we need to adjust our intake of nutrients according to our real life conditions).

So... you have quoted V.V. Vetrano, which has quoted some (probably old) edition of The Heinz Handbook of Nutrition which probably has quoted studies which may be even older. When you post things like this in several threads, some of our readers - including vegan parents/pregnant vegans etc - may quote you in some blog and say that they have read this and that on a forum about vegans being able to get all they need from 'nature' and so on. Misleading info has a very long life expectancy in internet!

And for what I know: you may be right. Really. Maybe we can, even today, get all the B12 we need from non-animal based sources throughout our lives, without ever taking supplements or fortified food. I just haven't seen anyone provide a 100% reliable way to achieve this yet. But as you can see here, I have collected some info about plants that could be part of a future, properly tried and tested way to live as vegans without supplements. As you can see in my disclaimer from 2004 at the top of that page, I think more research is needed before we can say that we today can get "all we need" from nature.

We may agree in more than you think. But assumptions are assumptions until there's some real, relevant proof out there. And I have a lot of respect for T.Colin Campbell (the man behind The China Study man), but his article is 15-16 years old, and back then, even more vegans ignored that we don't live in an organic world with fresh and pure water and vegan food available around every corner.

But thanks for the feedback anyway, I may make a separate thread about this somehow returning topic/dilemma when I have time. And thanks for stressing the fact that if we would consume a lot of food and liquid with really small amounts of B12 in it, it doesn't really matter if each of these elements contained really small amounts.

Re. Chia/B12... please (everyone!): post more similar findings if you come across them! It's a lot more important to inform doctors/dietitians etc about possible B12 sources than educating laymen, because these people are in touch with a lot of people. And they always (for good reasons) look for proper, unbiased sources - not just a quote of someone who has quoted someone else etc, but references to the initial study and how it was performed.