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Thread: Do some vegans use animal products?

  1. #1
    JC
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    Default Do some vegans use animal products?

    I have a confession...
    My mum came back from the shops the other day with some veggie percy pigs (the M&S kind)
    I checked the pack, they would have been vegan, except for the fact that they contained beeswax
    But i really wanted to try them, so i did. And i liked them. And i didn't regret it.
    Does this make me no longer vegan (or 'beegan' as Ani Phyo puts it)? I don't normally eat honey, or use bee products in general, but in the past i have used raw manuka honey for medicinal purposes, and i would again. And if more veggie percy pigs came my way, i'd eat them again too :s

  2. #2
    Gwydion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans don't use honey

    Err, yes - by my (and I assume most here) understanding of the word vegan, that would make you non-vegan.

    "The word ‘veganism’ denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude - as far as is possible and practical - all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose....."

    Etc etc.

    It's an animal product, one that is very easy to avoid. You are obviously doing a hell of a lot more than your average Joe, so congrats on that - still speciesism at play here though :-(

  3. #3
    JC
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Wow, my account has been demoted to non-vegan by the vegan police...

    I've been vegan for 5 years, and now apparently i'm not? Seriously??
    Are there not 'vegans' on here who use non-vegan medication? Are there not 'vegans' on here who still use old leather products? Who have pets? Who drive?? I'm sorry i don't prance around the pavement to avoid stepping on ants, whilst so overtly avoiding tripping over a dog. If that makes me 'speciest' then i guess i am.
    It's vegans who are puritanical and preachy that give the rest of us a bad name. It's the element of elitism that the minority have introduced into what is essentially a good and honest cause that ostracises us all from general society. Some people make veganism seem like a religion and maybe that's why i get omnis verbally attacking me over lunch almost every day. They want me to trip up.
    So, vegan police, you can delete my account fully. I don't want to belong to an exclusive forum.

    P.s. In case it wasn't obvious, this has REALLY hacked me off

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Choosing to eat something entirely optional is a bit different to accepting medicine that may decide wether you live or die, though I do agree that it's a bit silly for this forum to restrict people based on a definition which is subjective. Labels suck anyway, I've never called myself 'vegan' IRL and only selected the option on here due to lack of an accurate alternative.

  5. #5
    JC
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Thank you, Maitre. I too agree that medicine is not quite the same thing, but i was just trying to highlight that we live in a non-vegan world and we do our best with what we're given. Perhaps a better example would be supermarket fruit which is sometimes glazed with shellac. Or vegetables which are grown with maneure from farms. We know this, yet we still consume them. Some vegan products are labelled as "may contain traces of..." Is it the uncertainty that makes these products acceptable? If i'd just looked at the front of the packet, which read vegetarian, and hadn't noticed the beeswax, would that have made it acceptable? At least then i could plead ignorance.

  6. #6
    JC
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    And you know what, part of me thinks, well i'm not technically vegan any more, why don't i just go the whole hog and eat eggs and drink milk? And if i was new to all this i'd probably just think "sack this off" and go back to being vegetarian. Which is a good way to promote the lifestyle, isn't it? As it is, i know that veganism is just a label, like maitre says, and in the case of this forum, a quasi-religion which i'm better off without. I think i'll join a raw forum instead. And hopefully they won't be puritanical if i'm not 100% raw.

  7. #7
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    What you've done, as far as I can see, is join a vegan forum, ask if some vegans use honey, sheepishly admit to eating beeswax and then thrown a tantrum because people didn't agree with you.

    And you know what, part of me thinks, well i'm not technically vegan any more, why don't i just go the whole hog and eat eggs and drink milk?
    Do it if you really want, it's not a threat to us but to the animals that will suffer.

    There are lots of threads on this website about why vegans avoid honey you can read, here is another good link though - http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

  8. #8
    JC
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Quote Risker View Post
    What you've done, as far as I can see, is join a vegan forum, ask if some vegans use honey, sheepishly admit to eating beeswax and then thrown a tantrum because people didn't agree with you.



    Do it if you really want, it's not a threat to us but to the animals that will suffer.

    There are lots of threads on this website about why vegans avoid honey you can read, here is another good link though - http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
    I've been a member of this forum for 5 years. I've eaten honey once, and beeswax once in that time. I'm not throwing a tantrum because people don't agree with me, i'm throwing a tantrum because people are being hypocritical. My point in the last post was not that i was going to go back to being vegetarian, i was merely pointing out that being puritanical will most likely dissuade a lot of budding vegans. The point of being vegan is not to get all holier-than-thou about it, but to encourage as many people as possible to reduce animal suffering in any way that they can. I was merely pointing out that removing my status as vegan, whilst those who openly use other "justified" animal products may keep theirs, is sanctimonious and hurtful. I don't even know why i'm so bothered, i mean, it's just an internet forum. I just feel as though i've been s*** on by the people i felt were my peers. I guess i'll just go make friends with the veggies instead...

  9. #9
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Quote JC View Post
    I've been a member of this forum for 5 years.
    You have my sincere apologies, I really don't have a memory for names at all.

    I read your posts as saying that it should be okay to eat honey and call yourself vegan. I see this in the same way as people that think it should be okay to eat chicken and fish and call themselves vegetarian.

  10. #10
    JC
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Good lord, it's like talking to a brick wall!!!
    If being vegan, by your standards, means being a self-righteous a***, then i guess, yes, you can count me out.
    FYI there's a lot of things people do on here, to do with jobs, to do with medication, that i personally refrain from doing because i don't consider it ethical. But i don't go telling them what they are or are not. That's just plain rude.

  11. #11
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use honey?

    Hi!
    I've been vegan for 5 years, and now apparently i'm not? Seriously??
    If are so convinced that you'd be a vegan if you use animal products, why did you ask the question in the first place? Why even bother to mention that's you'd "do it again" etc, if you would like to have a vegan account here?

    So, vegan police, you can delete my account fully. I don't want to belong to an exclusive forum.
    Any forum for vegans would per definition be an exclusive forum. The core idea behind this site is to have a forum which *is* "exclusive" (as in only) for vegans. But I'll deactivate your account - both because you want it, but also according to our board rules (eg #12 and #14).


    You may be a brilliant person, but this is a forum for vegans, and as clearly defined in the 1940s by those who founded the vegan movement: vegans don't eat animal products - including those coming from bees (for reasons explained in other threads - check the honey threads). The definition of vegan isn't subjective when it comes to honey. And this isn't about you using honey one day (and not being a vegan that day), but that you present it as something you'd do again/don't regret etc. Frankly, it almost seems that you are moving away from being vegan, and want an 'exit' demonstrating that vegans are fanatical/sillier/holier-than-thou etc.

    Imagine how this forum (and the concept of being vegan, as such) would develop if vegans regularly both would claim that they avoid animal products "as much as practical and possible" - and at the same time share that they use animal products (when they don't need to) - and 'would do it again' and don't regret it. If anything, the vegan movement would appear as totally hypocritical.

    Quote JC View Post
    Are there not 'vegans' on here who use non-vegan medication?
    You already started a thread about that topic, here, about using occasional animal products for medical reasons, and know that in such situations, there may be cases where 'as much as practical and possible' means that vegans will use some animal product, because there are no other alternatives at the moment.

    It appears as if you miss the major difference between having occasional slips/use some animal ingredient for medical purposes where there are no other alternatives yet one one side, and, on the other side: intentionally keep using animal products when there are lots of other options (eg. in cakes, confectionary etc).

    Vegans don't use animal products/honey/beeswax. You seem to be OK with it - and additionally post about being OK with it and then ask others for feedback. Of course you'll get feedback then! I'm surprised that you are surprised that your account type is changed when you know this is a forum for vegans.

    If this would have been a forum for lacto-vegetarians, and you had said that you have been eating fish or chicken and didn't regret it, I would have change your account type then as well.


    And if i was new to all this i'd probably just think "sack this off" and go back to being vegetarian.
    If you, one a forum for vegans only, would be 'sacked off' by people telling you that you aren't a vegan if you use animal products (and would do it again etc), you probably haven't been a vegan to begin with either.

    i didn't regret it.

    i'd eat them again too
    Fair enough, and I'm sure many members here have had days which have been non-vegan. But that's not the topic here....


    a quasi-religion which i'm better off without.
    If you think it's preachy/quasi-religious to state the more or less obvious: that using animal products isn't something vegans do, and that if they use animal products (and would do it gain etc), they therefore aren't vegans, there have probably been some misunderstanding from the start. Maybe some vegetarians who tell other 'vegetarians' that eating fish/chicken isn't something vegetarians do are seen as quasi-religious/holier-than-thou (etc) as well. So be it.

    This isn't about looking down on you as a person or you having 'slipped'. Good luck - seriously.
    Last edited by Korn; Mar 29th, 2012 at 07:19 AM. Reason: Clarity

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    People who aren't vegan will attack you for being too strict and for not being strict enough. I've had a vegetarian moan to me about another vegan that she considered wasn't a proper vegan because she wasn't consistent and sometimes ate animal products. I don't think people are going to like us, or become vegans because they think we are willing to sometimes compromise.

    Although I have made compromises while being vegan. I don't feel happy about it and It think the fact you say you would do it again with what sounds like relish, isn't going to make other vegans sympathetic to you. Can't you find something similar that doesn't have animal products in it?

  13. #13
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    .

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Why did you bother to read the ingredients? =P Just wondering...

    I agree that none of us are perfect vegans. It's impossible to be. I guess you are still vegan but you weren't for that day... I don't respect your decision but I respect that you admitted it here, especially after seeing the reaction you got from some people.

    Don't give up. We all make mistakes and it's the long-term change in diet that will make the difference, not the odd day that we don't abide by "the rules". If it's going to become a habit, though, I'd try to make sure that other people know that's not what veganism is and vegans do NOT eat or use any animal products - it's just your personal decision to do so.

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    Default

    What a farce.....

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Quote JC View Post
    I have a confession...
    <snip>
    But i really wanted to try them, so i did. And i liked them. And i didn't regret it.
    Does this make me no longer vegan (or 'beegan' as Ani Phyo puts it)? <snip> but in the past i have used raw manuka honey for medicinal purposes, and i would again. And if more veggie percy pigs came my way, i'd eat them again too :s
    Not vegan.

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    When you CHOOSE to eat something that contains animal parts or secretions you simply aren't living a vegan lifestyle. I don't see how you could be "not vegan for that day"... if you could turn veganism on and off like that everyone is vegan at least a few moments a day. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't help the oppressed.

    I also get very annoyed by this tolerance/acceptance some vegans have about exploitation of animals being a personal choice. Where is my personal choice to kill people, where is my personal choice to subject women to artificially insemination, take their babies away so I can have their milk, where is my personal choice to kill babies because they have the wrong gender and they don't fit my needs... how come other people get a personal choice to do what they feel like when the exploiting and harm it causes is equal and comparable.

  18. #18
    LouiseAbel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    When you CHOOSE to eat something that contains animal parts or secretions you simply aren't living a vegan lifestyle. I don't see how you could be "not vegan for that day"... if you could turn veganism on and off like that everyone is vegan at least a few moments a day. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't help the oppressed.

    I also get very annoyed by this tolerance/acceptance some vegans have about exploitation of animals being a personal choice. Where is my personal choice to kill people, where is my personal choice to subject women to artificially insemination, take their babies away so I can have their milk, where is my personal choice to kill babies because they have the wrong gender and they don't fit my needs... how come other people get a personal choice to do what they feel like when the exploiting and harm it causes is equal and comparable.

    It's called being human. I would never claim to be perfect. My parents, who are both meat eaters, are the most selfless people I know. My brother, who is a meat eater, is the kindest, most lovely person I know and would never say a bad word to anybody. I can't claim either of those traits. My diet is more ethical, but I shop at Tesco while my mum would never shop there and prefers to spend more money on small, more ethical businesses.

    If you've never made a bad judgement in your life, go ahead and lecture everybody else as much as you want, but I doubt that's the case. She knows she's not vegan if she knowingly eats animal products - what's the point in making her feel bad about it?

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Most selfless, and most kindest... towards human animals you mean. They show neither of these towards non-human animals (which they could easily do).

    If someone was killing and exploiting human animals, but is selfless and the most kindest towards non-human animals, would you be ok with that too? Or is there a double standard at play here?

  20. #20
    Niccie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Quote JC View Post
    I have a confession...


    But i really wanted to try them, so i did. And i liked them. And i didn't regret it.
    And if more veggie percy pigs came my way, i'd eat them again too :s
    I think the issue is you knowingly eating an animal product and then saying you would again!?

    I think I accidentally ate something with dairy in while in Zurich, I mostly ate falafel and salads but had really bad tummy aches for a few days after so assume this is why. I wouldn't consider myself non-Vegan but this in my opinion was a slip up (I'm not even entirely sure where the diary was hidden) and I would certainly avoid all the food places I ate (or learn better German!) in future.

    I don't see why you have got upset about people's reactions to this at all? Honey/beeswax is no different to eggs, dairy or meat itself. If you promote eating an animal product you give others the wrong impression of what a vegan person stands for - if you want to eat honey that's your prerogative it wouldn't affect anyone on her only the animals who suffer - we are only affected by misrepresentation of a vegan lifestyle

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Quote CoolCat View Post
    Most selfless, and most kindest... towards human animals you mean. They show neither of these towards non-human animals (which they could easily do).

    If someone was killing and exploiting human animals, but is selfless and the most kindest towards non-human animals, would you be ok with that too? Or is there a double standard at play here?
    I wouldn't say I am "okay" with people harming humans OR animals, but I can forgive people for it. Please don't tell me I have double standards for allowing my family to have faults.

  22. #22
    Muvesz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Being vegan means avoiding animal products to the best of your ability.
    You knowingly and willingly ate an animal product. This is not avoiding to the best of your abilities. This doesn't even really count as a slip-up, since you said you would do it again. By 'definition' you are not vegan.
    I know chances are we have ALL slipped up at some point, but what makes us vegan is the fact that when we find out we messed up, we rectify it and don't do it again. Hell, I gave up my favorite chai (which I drank every single fricken morning) when I found out it had honey in it. It's silly to get whiny about something because you don't like the answer.

  23. #23
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    As we live in a non-vegan world, sadly we are going to come across non-vegan things in our lives that we would rather not be there. That is one thing, but to actually purchase and eat something that we know is not vegan is not the way to go. Why stop at one product? Before you know where you are you will be buying lots of things that aren't vegan.............and then how could you call yourself vegan?

  24. #24
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    This is an odd thread. I agree with everyone who says bee products aren't vegan. However, based on what JC has posted in the past (including a post in another thread about honey) I reckon she is a proper vegan, and I also reckon we should cut her some slack. Hope you're OK JC

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    I agree with what Harpy says. I think this might be just a slip up. I hope you'll stay on the forum with us, although I can imagine you don't want to after all these replies.

  26. #26
    CATWOMAN sandra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Hopefully you will know where we are coming from with our replies JC. You have been a member of the forum for many years and have probably read discussions like this many times. I was not implying you weren't vegan.............I just stated that if we keep on buying products we know aren't vegan then that gives out the wrong message.

    I too hope you will stay on the forum.

  27. #27
    fortified twinkle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    I would never buy anything with honey or beeswax myself, but once when it was someone's birthday and they had bought cakes in for everyone (as is tradition around here) and they'd scoured the shops for something they thought I could eat and proudly presented it to me as the fruits of their labour it had honey listed as the last ingredient and I didn't have the heart to say I couldn't eat it, so I did. Normally I would just have kept quiet about it though, rather than asking if I was still considered vegan though. I don't even know why I'm chiming in with this now, so make of it what you will.

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Eating something that isn't vegan just because someone put some effort in trying is counter productive. You'll get a "but you ate it last time" when the next thing shows up. It's better to hurt the feelings of the human that failed than to exploit an animal. Otherwise it sends out the wrong message.

  29. #29
    Vegan Princess BellaTanie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    Quote LouiseAbel View Post
    It's called being human. I would never claim to be perfect. My parents, who are both meat eaters, are the most selfless people I know. My brother, who is a meat eater, is the kindest, most lovely person I know and would never say a bad word to anybody. I can't claim either of those traits. My diet is more ethical, but I shop at Tesco while my mum would never shop there and prefers to spend more money on small, more ethical businesses.

    If you've never made a bad judgement in your life, go ahead and lecture everybody else as much as you want, but I doubt that's the case. She knows she's not vegan if she knowingly eats animal products - what's the point in making her feel bad about it?

    You really are such a nice person

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    JC,

    I guess you are on a good way to go vegan and get your status re-instated

    Having a "slip-up" is understandable (although most vegans I know don't do it intentionally, i.e. after reading the ingredients), but coming to the forum afterwards and telling everybody that you would do it again, that I find quite a bit less understandable. (Especially if you have been a forum member for 5 years and know people's views on the subject ;-)

    Best regards,
    Andy

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    Default Re: Do some vegans use animal products?

    No Vegan diet, no Vegan powers!

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