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Thread: Meat eating and human violence

  1. #1
    Vegtastic EpicLibrarian's Avatar
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    Default Meat eating and human violence

    We all know that people who abuse animals are more likely to be violent and abusive later in life, and we have all heard that the FBI uses animal violence in the past as a way to profile violent/serial killers.

    So my question is this: Are there any studies comparing violence/serial killers in high meat eating/slaughtering societies vs. those societies that abstain? I do understand that there is no society that is completely animal product free, but am thinking of those that eat much less.

    I just wonder if there is a correlation between these things, and if there are any official papers on the effect of eating meat on violence in general in society. I guess another example would be whether or not a rise in meat consumption and slaughterhouses has correlated with the rise in human violence.
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    Consistency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat Eating and Human Violence

    I live in Italy now. Italian's eat less meat than other developed countries and aggression is non-existent. They also get more sunshine throughout the year.

    Yes, rise in meat consumption does correlate with human violence since it is well known that more meat consumption makes an inactive individual aggressive. I believe if that aggression is not used outward, towards sports, then it does do damage inward. If we think logically, meat throws the hormones out of whack and exercise balances them. Its a complex topic with a lot of factors to take into account.

    Serial Killers tend to be abused by their parents. Its abuse + lack of nurturing + lack of vitamins + meat = Psychopath/Sociopath.

    Vitamin D deficiency: a worldwide problem with health consequences

    Killers are Made, Not Born
    by Faye Snyder, PsyD (PDF)


    Aggression and Omega 3 supplements

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    Last edited by Consistency; Apr 29th, 2012 at 12:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    I wish this was true but having lived in Italy I was quite shocked by how much meat they actually eat. Probably they eat less in the south but central Italy they eat lots of meat. This is an interesting chart about how much meat is eaten in various countries. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph...daily-chart-17

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    Divided by 0 MoonDance's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    That graph was quite interesting, thanks for posting that Mymblesdaughter.



    My sister is pretty aggressive. She doesn't eat red meat and rarely eats chicken, though she scoffs down the fish and cheese like there's no tomorrow. It's either her age (18) or her personality, but I think diet really does play an important factor. She rarely eats nutritious food and always reaches for the processed carbs and slathers cheese on everything. Her body's probably so full of toxins it's no wonder that she has a short fuse half the time. Plus she wonders why she's always tired but doesn't make any move to eat more nurturing, fresh, plant based foods.
    I hate it when I'm studying and a velociraptor throws bananas on me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    I havent been able to find any scientific studies directly related to meat eating and violence, but I did find an interesting essay on the subject:
    http://www.monitor.upeace.org/innerp...id_article=549

    As Consistency said, I think there are too many factors to consider as far as violence is concerned to directly blame one thing.

    Mymblesdaughter, thanks for that link! I am in the middle of an argument with a meat eater on YouTube who is trying to refute my claim that meat eating in the U.S. has quadrupled over the last hundred years. So far I have found at least three scientific peer reviewed studies to back up my claim and I havent heard back from him/her yet so we shall see. This person claimed that meat eating in the U.S. has remained constant and stable over the last hundred years and that it is the increased consumption of grains that has caused the obesity epidemic (not that I was blaming the consumption of meat on the obesity epidemic, I was trying to prove that the increased obsession with protein is overstressed and that you dont need animal protein to thrive).

  6. #6
    markusaurelius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    I'm with consistency. It's your childhood upbringing and how aggressive your parents are. Meat comes with a lot of environment toxins, heavy metals etc so those will damage your brain aswell and make you less happy imho.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbiq2-ukfhM

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/impr...-through-diet/

    http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-based-diet-mood/

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    Draíochta Blueberries's Avatar
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    Quote Robinwomb
    I am in the middle of an argument with a meat eater on YouTube
    Haha, oh god, never get into arguements on Youtube! Its not worth it, the level of stupidity that can be found in Youtube comments really isn't worth engaging in, they just want to drag you down to their level!

    Quote Robinwomb
    This person claimed that meat eating in the U.S. has remained constant and stable over the last hundred years and that it is the increased consumption of grains that has caused the obesity epidemic
    ^^
    level of stupidity proven! That person just wants to rile you up Robinwomb!
    Houmous atá ann!

  8. #8
    splodge
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    The increased consumption of grains is due to those grain being fed to meat, then people eating the meat!

    Ask any working class person over 50-60 what they used to eat as a child, and they will confirm that it was only possible to eat a small amount of meat, except on special occasions.

  9. #9
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Simple point:

    A person who see's violence against animals as unacceptable under any circumstances is one step further removed from seeing violence against humans as acceptable under 'special' circumstances than a person who doesn't.

    I think I read in Gandhi's autobio that was one fundamental of his conviction in the importance of vegetarianism: That it makes one extra barrier (quite a big barrier?) agaist the transmigration of violence from animals to people.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  10. #10
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote splodge View Post
    Ask any working class person over 50-60 what they used to eat as a child, and they will confirm that it was only possible to eat a small amount of meat, except on special occasions.
    Over 50 working class raised dude here

    Was indeed far more a luxury item than it is nowadays.

    Unfortunately my grandad was an agricultural builder and used to quite often get part paid in dead piggies that had neatly been bandsawed in half, from food inlet to food outlet, right through the middle.

    Nothing was wasted though. From trotters to ears, and all in bits between, every scrap got eaten. Even the skulls were boiled to get every last scrap of flesh off (made 'brawn') and the bones boiled in broth to extract every last morsel of marrow.

    Somehow in those days meat eating was far more (a bit more?) ... errrrr .... 'respectfull' and 'honest'.
    Last edited by Clueless Git; Jun 15th, 2012 at 10:27 AM.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Draíochta Blueberries's Avatar
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    Quote Cupid Stunt
    Over 50 working class raised dude here
    For some reason I imagined that you were younger than that, I guess I have images in my head of what forum members are like that aren't really based on any kind of fact!

    Quote Cupid Stunt
    Somehow in those days meat eating was far more (a bit more?) ... errrrr .... 'respectfull' and 'honest'.
    Honest, maybe; respectful, impossible. There is no such thing as respectful meat, whether you eat every part or only some the idea of 'respecting the animal' is in the mind of the guilty meat-eater.
    Houmous atá ann!

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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    This shows the reverse: the effects of a vegan diet on prisoners:

    http://vegetarianspotlight.com/2011/vegan-diet-impacts-california-prison/

  13. #13
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Was prison visiting yesterday.

    Prison in question holds a population of 808.

    If 3% of the UK population are vegetarians (Food Standards Agency: 2009) then there should be 24 vegetarians there.

    If 7% of the UK population are vegetarians (Independent Market Research circa 2009) then there should be 56 vegetarians there.

    Actual number of vegetarians amongst that population is just one.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  14. #14
    zazu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    interesting....do they have access to veg food in prisons?

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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    maybe the veggies have more sense than to get caught....
    "when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace" Jimi Hendrix

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    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote zazu View Post
    interesting....do they have access to veg food in prisons?
    Regulatory requirement, Zazu ..

    Annex A Extracts from Catering Operating Manual (PSI 2010/44)

    CHAPTER 3 MENU PLANNING AND MEAL PROVISION


    1. Specification Outputs


    Prisoners will be provided with 3 meals a day; normally breakfast, lunch and dinner.
    This element of the specification ensures that prisoners receive 3 meals a day. It also specifies a continental breakfast to ensure that all establishments offer this meal as a minimum option. The minimum contents of a breakfast packs are laid out in this Manual.
    Drinking water will be made available to all prisoners at all times.
    This is mandated in the Prisons Act and usually addressed by integral sanitation. Where prisoners are in special accommodation arrangements must be made for provision of drinking water.
    A multi-option (minimum 5 options to meet differing dietary requirements ie vegetarian, religious needs etc), pre-select menu including a minimum of one substantial hot meal choice per day will be provided for the lunchtime or evening meal.
    From information I can glean (not exhaustive) the only vegans ever encountered by the prison service appear to be those who have been arrested for illegal activism in pursuit of animal rights.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    tickled onion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    that reminds me of the film Scum, the only vegan was only vegan to make trouble for the guards with his shoes and food
    "when the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace" Jimi Hendrix

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    zazu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    From information I can glean (not exhaustive) the only vegans ever encountered by the prison service appear to be those who have been arrested for illegal activism in pursuit of animal rights.
    I wonder if anyone has done a full study on the types of crimes (e.g. violent vs. non-violent) on vegetarians/vegans in prison. Do you know what the one vegetarian was in for?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote splodge View Post
    The increased consumption of grains is due to those grain being fed to meat, then people eating the meat!

    Ask any working class person over 50-60 what they used to eat as a child, and they will confirm that it was only possible to eat a small amount of meat, except on special occasions.
    Another over 50 here Splodge and my experience was that the 'man of the house' (namely my uncle as I was childminded at the time) was fed an enormous meal each night including a large slab of meat while the rest of us ate jam sandwiches on the basis that he needed the energy to retain his ability to bring in the much needed wages to keep the rest of us in jam sandwiches!

    Seemed logical and fair at the time , I dont remember anyone objecting and I can still see the logic of it now really!!!!

    BUT.. as my uncle was a hedge cutter he was in close contact with farmers and frequently the draining board would heave with the full feathered carcasses of Pheasant or a side of pig which he had bartered for in exchange for work. And for a few days we would all benefit from the glut.

    I agree with the more 'honest' approach CS refers to..people were often 'nearer' to the food on their plate by merit of a different employment demographic. Even if your family were not working on the land someone you knew usually was (if you lived in the country of course). Bird plucking or animal skinning were activities most of us had witnessed at least once. Not justifying it ..just saying that the opportunity to operate the disconnect is harder if the pig is laying bleeding on the draining board!

    I did catch a snip on the radio last week in which a chef I think it was Raymond Blanc (but do not quote me on that) was commenting on the ridiculous disconnect his diners have with their food and their reluctance to eat offal. He commented that the disconnect can be partly attributed to the closing of butchers shops in town. He said that when a pig was hanging from the door as you stepped in and rabbits were hung upside down in the window you could hardly fail to make the connection. He said that people should be 'honest' about what they eat, if they eat meat then they should eat all parts of an animal but he feels they are often hung up on choosing the same tidy, trimmed red slab they are buying at the supermarket and turning their noses up at anything vaguely associated with sinnew, bone , offal or 'nasty bits' of the animal they are eating. Interesting ....

  20. #20
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote zazu View Post
    I wonder if anyone has done a full study on the types of crimes (e.g. violent vs. non-violent) on vegetarians/vegans in prison. Do you know what the one vegetarian was in for?
    ABH (actual bodily harm) Zazu. That's what you get charged with in the UK if your actual crime is GBH (grievious bodily harm). If you've actualy caused bodily harm, but not grieviously so, you get charged with assault. This all makes sense to someone sitting behind a desk in Whitehall somewhere.

    Possibly of interest and possibly not: Lad in question is a 'from birth' vegetarian, not a converted omni.

    Thing of possible interest being that in my personal experience 'from birth' vegetarians can be different to converts. A convert having made conscious decision to change (often being repulsed by the violence of meat) and a from-birther never, neccessarily, having made any conscious decision at all.

    Some evidence here that the conscious rejection of meat (because meat is violence) is far more a factor than the actual diet itself.

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    Quote Eileen Dover View Post
    Another over 50 here ...
    Coffin dodgin' dinosaur!


    Which is code for "Good post and I agree with everything you said, my sweet"
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Draíochta Blueberries's Avatar
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    Quote Eileen Dover View Post
    I did catch a snip on the radio last week in which a chef I think it was Raymond Blanc (but do not quote me on that) was commenting on the ridiculous disconnect his diners have with their food and their reluctance to eat offal. He commented that the disconnect can be partly attributed to the closing of butchers shops in town. He said that when a pig was hanging from the door as you stepped in and rabbits were hung upside down in the window you could hardly fail to make the connection. He said that people should be 'honest' about what they eat, if they eat meat then they should eat all parts of an animal but he feels they are often hung up on choosing the same tidy, trimmed red slab they are buying at the supermarket and turning their noses up at anything vaguely associated with sinnew, bone , offal or 'nasty bits' of the animal they are eating. Interesting ....
    In markets and supermarkets (sometimes even pubs!) here in Spain meat is much more visible than it would be at home in Ireland. The most popular variety of meat is a cured pig's with the hoof still on it, there are entire shops dedicated to its fetishisation. People here see their meat barely dead and still like it
    Houmous atá ann!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote Blueberries View Post
    In markets and supermarkets (sometimes even pubs!) here in Spain meat is much more visible than it would be at home in Ireland. The most popular variety of meat is a cured pig's with the hoof still on it, there are entire shops dedicated to its fetishisation. People here see their meat barely dead and still like it
    Yes I had heard that Blueberries.. I have a Spanish uncle who is bewildered by the British approach to animals and told me about the shops in Spain. He truly cannot understand what he sees as our over sentimentalised view of beings that are bred entirely for labour, food or entertainment.

    He does not operate any kind of disconnect at all. He is very 'honest' and 'near' to his food source. So near in fact that his favourite form of entertainment when I was younger was to entice ducks to the car in pub gardens with titbits and then wring their necks in the back seat. He also 'grew his own' in the garage where he kept numerous rabbits , my cousins and I often went into this 'petting area' delighting in the rabbits until we found out they were his dinner.

    Needless to say...I keep CS away from him except where absoultely unavoidable

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    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote Eileen Dover View Post
    Needless to say...I keep CS away from him except where absoultely unavoidable
    Wise!

    I have 'plans' for him. I'm gonna turn his head inside out and show him what's inside
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    zazu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Quote Cupid Stunt View Post
    ABH (actual bodily harm) Zazu. That's what you get charged with in the UK if your actual crime is GBH (grievious bodily harm). If you've actualy caused bodily harm, but not grieviously so, you get charged with assault. This all makes sense to someone sitting behind a desk in Whitehall somewhere.

    Possibly of interest and possibly not: Lad in question is a 'from birth' vegetarian, not a converted omni.

    Thing of possible interest being that in my personal experience 'from birth' vegetarians can be different to converts. A convert having made conscious decision to change (often being repulsed by the violence of meat) and a from-birther never, neccessarily, having made any conscious decision at all.

    Some evidence here that the conscious rejection of meat (because meat is violence) is far more a factor than the actual diet itself.
    That is interesting about "from birth" vegetarians being different from converted omnis, and I've noticed that too (though I know very few vegetarians and vegans in person). All of the "from birth" vegetarians I know don't seem to care much about the issues (e.g. will use leather, or don't know about hidden animal additives to look for in processed foods) and from my point of view, really take vegetarianism for granted (one "from birther" once told me he's thankful for meat eaters because that means there's more vegetarian food for him ). Of course, being the first and only vegetarian among my family and peers at a relatively young age, I had to educate myself and fight to even become vegetarian in the first place, so I guess it's natural that it would seem more important to someone like me.

  25. #25
    Bad Buddhist Clueless Git's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who has observed this Zazu!

    From the unusual position of being in a four generation vegetarian family (ex-mother in law through to my grandaughter) I can see an upside though.

    That being simply that the 'power of tradition' works both ways. Less questioning, less aware of the issues, my children and grandchild may be but vegetarians by tradition if nothing else they are. I am confident they will never change and that the family tradition, as now is well established, will carry on through my grandchildren to my great grand children and beyond.

    Grandaughter is particularly fascinating to observe; At only age 6 the massive peer and social pressures she is subjected to have no effect at all. She 'knows' her mum is different, her grandad is different, her uncle and aunts are different and her grandmother is different. That she is 'different' seems, to her, to be an immutable part of her sense of self identity in the world.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

  26. #26
    zazu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    that's amazing how strong your granddaughter is against peer & social pressure at such a young age- a comfort with being different is a really important quality to have, and it sounds like your family has taught her well.

    Are the children in your family raised vegetarian and just end up staying that way out of tradition alone, or at some point (when they're old enough to handle it), are they told why and familiarized with the issues? I'm curious because I can see pros and cons to both ways.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Wrong, I'm 62, me and everyone I knew had meat multiple times a day. My dad would go buy half a cow for the freezer because it was cheaper. I hated most vegetables when I was a kid. I thought constipation was normal. I'm surprised I made it to 17 to turn vegetarian. And we were working class.

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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Don't forget Rainwater many people on the forum are in the UK. You live in Texas and I imagine that is a very different place.

    I'm 45 and we had meat every day when I was a child, it wasn't good meat it was things like corned beef, stewing steak, liver. I can't actually remember Mum making any meat free main meals. We also used to get half a pig and put it in the freezer.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Meat eating and human violence

    Ha! thanks. I should have realized the international group. Texas, meat is a way of life here. Although many Whole Foods are opening here, they do a good business at the seafood and meat counter.

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