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Thread: From another thread: B12 overdose / megadose?

  1. #1
    velphick
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    Default Re: B12 overdose / megadose?

    Just wondering Korn, most of the stuff I have read through that mentions Vit B12 causing cancer (like the stomach one for meat eaters etc) is known though just for meat eaters in general and I believe (and research has mentioned before) that it is due to lack of fiber, as most meat eaters generally don't get close to the daily recommended dose, so the meat sits there for a LOT longer than intended undigested in your stomach and bowels.

    Also cancer alone has been shown (depending on what types) to be caused by all sorts of different things, maybe you are attributing Vit B12 to it but I believe (and it shows in some of the things you pasted) other things have to do with it, like the studies with high cholesterol AND high B12, high cholesterol causes a LOT if not all sorts of problems by itself, it might (more research would be needed) hinder Vit B12 from being used and store it up, just like some people have a problem getting rid of Iron? Cholesterol could cause this or just a person has some sort of autoimmune defect causing this, too many factors (which I know you are trying to separate it seems) but instead of posting so many negatives , include some positives (like below) and also keep the ones JUST studying B12 instead of ones combining B12 with other issues cause then there is NO way to tell if it is the B12 or the other conditions that cause the problems. (My bet is the other conditions cause there has been studies showing no toxicity at high doses of B12 and actually GOOD things like below)

    Also I read through and didn't see any positive things with Vit b12 like this one :

    Pasted from and M.D.:

    Indeed, a study published in 2008 suggested that seniors with the highest levels of vitamin B12 were six times less likely to exhibit brain atrophy than those in the study whose B12 levels were lower. Research has linked brain atrophy with Alzheimer's disease and other forms of cognitive impairment.

    Vitamin B12 is found in meat, poultry, fish, eggs and dairy products. However, the older you are, the less well you absorb it from foods (because decreased stomach acid, common in those over the age of 50, hinders separation of B12 from protein in meat and other animal products).


    The fatigue and lack of motivation you describe can't be attributed to the amount of B12 you've been taking. This vitamin is not toxic, so you don't have to worry that too much could be harmful. In fact, fatigue (as well as memory loss, balance problems, constipation and depression) are more likely to be symptoms of a B12 deficiency than of getting too much of it.


    I suggest that you get a thorough medical checkup to find out what is causing your symptoms.


    I recommend that everyone over age 50 (and vegans of any age) take a daily B-50 B-complex supplement that contains B12 along with other B vitamins. Incidentally, I don't routinely recommend B12 shots as occasional tonics or pick-me-ups. People who get these shots often report immediate feelings of warmth, energy and a general glow of health. The effects tend to be short-lived and are most prominent with the first injections, suggestive of a placebo response.


    Andrew Weil, M.D.

    PS I also wanted to say to the other poster who said Vegans hardly ever get sick, I know a vegan (my fiancee's cousin actually) she always says the same thing yet she is sick more than myself and my fiancee, (we go to the gym regularly and I'm a nutritionist / Personal trainer so kind of know how to look after myself at least and TRY to pass on some knowledge for those who listen) and a few others I've met seem to think this way also.

    Now I'm not against Vegans at all since I've actually explored this path before and was thinking about it (still currently am) as I think we eat WAY to much meat and the way some people treat animals etc (but I help by buying mostly organic, only time I don't is if its not available) but if you have ever seen
    Scott Pilgrim vs. the World (the movie) that Vegan in that movie, that is EXACTLY what image most Vegans have given me I have met, (if you haven't watched it it basically is a bloke that thinks he is above everyone else solely because he is vegan and has superpowers due to it, just to make his image that much worse lol)

    Anyways the above was only just stating where I was coming from so you don't think (this meat eater just wants to say his opinion) so back on topic, I'm really interested to hear what you have to say Korn cause this site was actually the first that I found that stated the negatives (and pretty much only that) of to much or to little Vit B12.

    (Btw I'm not trying to start anything or mean anything in a negative way or put anyone down, sorry if it came across like that, just looking for a civil discussion)
    Last edited by Korn; Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Post moved from this thread: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?169-B12-overdose-megadose

  2. #2
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: B12 overdose / megadose?

    Quote velphick View Post
    I believe (and research has mentioned before) that it is due to lack of fiber
    I have seen several reports about a possible link between high intake of meat/B12 and cancer, but haven't come across any conclusive statement that this is due to the lack of fiber. WHich cancer types/studies are you referring to, and how have they come to th conclusion that this is due to fiber (only)?

    as most meat eaters generally don't get close to the daily recommended dose, so the meat sits there for a LOT longer than intended undigested in your stomach and bowels.
    Sure, but this doesn't explain the reports about possible links between high intake of B12 and eg. lung cancer and esophagus cancer. Besides, meat eaters also eat plants, which contain fiber, so any conclusion about low fiber intake causing cancer would need to be explained and documented. There are various theories about this: some focus on the high intake of animal protein, others mention B12 specifically. Personally, I haven't done any research about this: I only refer to reports I've seen.


    Also cancer alone has been shown (depending on what types) to be caused by all sorts of different things
    Sure - cancer may have different causes, and doesn't even have to be caused by anything diet related.

    instead of posting so many negatives , include some positives
    The thread you posted in was a thread specifically thread about possible side effect of side effects of a (very) high B12 intake. In many other threads, the importance of not having too low levels of B12 is being focused on, a topic which of course is important for vegans to pay attention to...


    Indeed, a study published in 2008 suggested that seniors with the highest levels of vitamin B12 were six times less likely to exhibit brain atrophy than those in the study whose B12 levels were lower. Research has linked brain atrophy with Alzheimer's disease and other forms of cognitive impairment.
    ...and, as mentioned in various posts: too low levels of B12 are also associated with a higher cancer rate. There are lots of reasons to make sure one gets enough B12.

    Vitamin B12 is found in meat, poultry, fish, eggs and dairy products.

    We already have a subforum dedicated to discussing possible non-animal B12 sources,..

    However, the older you are, the less well you absorb it from foods (because decreased stomach acid, common in those over the age of 50, hinders separation of B12 from protein in meat and other animal products).


    Yup, and there's also a real risk of getting a B12 deficiency or 'low B12 levels, but in the normal range) if you are a meat eater. Your B12 levels is about a lot more than your B12 intake!

    The fatigue and lack of motivation you describe can't be attributed to the amount of B12 you've been taking. This vitamin is not toxic, so you don't have to worry that too much could be harmful. In fact, fatigue (as well as memory loss, balance problems, constipation and depression) are more likely to be symptoms of a B12 deficiency than of getting too much of it. I suggest that you get a thorough medical checkup to find out what is causing your symptoms.
    This part seems to be something that MD wrote to somebody who contacted him about their health problems... But a firm statement about B12 not being "toxic" can be misinterpreted as if there are no known links between a (very) high B12 intake and health problems.

    PS I also wanted to say to the other poster who said Vegans hardly ever get sick, I know a vegan (my fiancee's cousin actually) she always says the same thing yet she is sick more than myself [...]
    Sure - vegans may get sick! Not only that, but quite a few people turn to a vegan diet after they have encountered health problems, low energy etc., and since eating vegan isn't a miracle cure for all diseases, of course many of these may keep having health problems also after having skipped animal products from their diet. There's no such thing as "a" vegan diet, so a vegan living of processed foods/junk food, with a high intake of sugar will of course risk not ending up as a healthy person at all.

    I'm really interested to hear what you have to say Korn cause this site was actually the first that I found that stated the negatives (and pretty much only that) of to much or to little Vit B12.
    Well, all the info posted in the long thread about side effects of a B12 overdose/megadose is taken from other articles studies - neither I or this site is a source for any of this information. The same is true for the link sreffer to in this thread:

    20-30 types of cancer and animal products (eggs, fish, milk, meat)

    Remember that this is a discussion forum, and not a static site with all info you need about eg. B12 or eating vegan. Personally, I focus on sharing things which aren't often mentioned in mainstream media - as a comment to the impression some people still have - namely that if a vegan becomes sick, it's due to his vegan diet, but if a meat eater gets sick, he's just getting sick. If veganforum.com would have been a site claiming to provide you with all the info you need about B12 and other nutrients, there would be even more focus on the need to pay special attention to B12 and certain other nutrients (for vegans). The main reason for the existence of threads like eg Nutrient deficiencies more common in meat eaters than in vegans? is to contribute to killing old myths about vegan food, and to help people get a balanced view on the most common things to pay attention to when living on a vegan - or standard - diet.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  3. #3
    velphick
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    Default Re: B12 overdose / megadose?

    Quote Korn View Post
    I have seen several reports about a possible link between high intake of meat/B12 and cancer, but haven't come across any conclusive statement that this is due to the lack of fiber. WHich cancer types/studies are you referring to, and how have they come to th conclusion that this is due to fiber (only)?


    Sure, but this doesn't explain the reports about possible links between high intake of B12 and eg. lung cancer and esophagus cancer. Besides, meat eaters also eat plants, which contain fiber, so any conclusion about low fiber intake causing cancer would need to be explained and documented. There are various theories about this: some focus on the high intake of animal protein, others mention B12 specifically. Personally, I haven't done any research about this: I only refer to reports I've seen.
    Yes and like I mentioned high intake of meat need to be separated from high intake of B12 to get the facts right if its the B12 itself or the meat, because in pure high intakes of meat studies the results have come up the same (stomach cancer etc) with no mention of the high B12 side of things.


    Quote Korn View Post
    The thread you posted in was a thread specifically thread about possible side effect of side effects of a (very) high B12 intake. In many other threads, the importance of not having too low levels of B12 is being focused on, a topic which of course is important for vegans to pay attention to...
    Ok fair enough


    Quote Korn View Post
    Yup, and there's also a real risk of getting a B12 deficiency or 'low B12 levels, but in the normal range) if you are a meat eater. Your B12 levels is about a lot more than your B12 intake!


    This part seems to be something that MD wrote to somebody who contacted him about their health problems... But a firm statement about B12 not being "toxic" can be misinterpreted as if there are no known links between a (very) high B12 intake and health problems.
    Not sure its what I've read everywhere, where tests have been done no toxicity levels have been shown (although as you suggested they have been wrong before and wouldn't go absurd on taking high levels of the stuff)

    Quote Korn View Post
    Sure - vegans may get sick! Not only that, but quite a few people turn to a vegan diet after they have encountered health problems, low energy etc., and since eating vegan isn't a miracle cure for all diseases, of course many of these may keep having health problems also after having skipped animal products from their diet. There's no such thing as "a" vegan diet, so a vegan living of processed foods/junk food, with a high intake of sugar will of course risk not ending up as a healthy person at all.


    Well, all the info posted in the long thread about side effects of a B12 overdose/megadose is taken from other articles studies - neither I or this site is a source for any of this information. The same is true for the link sreffer to in this thread:

    20-30 types of cancer and animal products (eggs, fish, milk, meat)

    Remember that this is a discussion forum, and not a static site with all info you need about eg. B12 or eating vegan. Personally, I focus on sharing things which aren't often mentioned in mainstream media - as a comment to the impression some people still have - namely that if a vegan becomes sick, it's due to his vegan diet, but if a meat eater gets sick, he's just getting sick. If veganforum.com would have been a site claiming to provide you with all the info you need about B12 and other nutrients, there would be even more focus on the need to pay special attention to B12 and certain other nutrients (for vegans). The main reason for the existence of threads like eg Nutrient deficiencies more common in meat eaters than in vegans? is to contribute to killing old myths about vegan food, and to help people get a balanced view on the most common things to pay attention to when living on a vegan - or standard - diet.
    It's funny cause that study does Vegans (which eat healthy) compared to the typical American (which doesn't eat healthy and lacks a LOT of things , Fiber included) , the typical American is KNOWN to consume way to much meat in preference to more fruit and veggies and here lies the problem so its no surprise to me about the study. But say for the OTHER people who eat meat, say 3 or 4 times a week (unlike the typical american which eats it every day NUMEROUS times a day) with a balanced diet of fruit and veggies too, THAT is a study I would like to see. Can't go from extremes the study's do have to be fair to see if its the meat itself or the diet as a whole. So that study is pretty much worthless.

    Studies have come out showing Milk (a specially pasteurized / homogenized milk) actually takes calcium out of your bones as its not the same type of calcium from fruit and veggies sources and cant be used by the body (not a problem for me cause I don't drink milk anyway) so again with the number of people drinking milk in America it shows why calcium is a major deficient among them. But its not major news as it would kill the Dairy industry and we all know how much they makes a year.... but back on topic I REALLY would like to see some PROPER studies done as mentioned above.

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