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Thread: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution? [Closed]

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    Default Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution? [Closed]

    Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution? I've read several reports, and watched several documentaries that weren't religious based. There is no more stronger argument for evolution than there is for creationism. Both camps are subjective and selective in their research. Neither wants to acknowledge information that discredits their theory. One scientist said for humans to emerge from the primate gene pool is akin to a hurricane blowing through a junkyard and leaving a new car behind. There is no scientific hard evidence that it's possible for humans to emerge from such a gene pool. It's just guesswork. Archeologist are finding advanced civilizations that go back further and further all the time. Artifacts that date in the million years. For any information supporting "evolution", there is just as much information supporting advanced civilizations before evolution. Notice I didn't say "created" civilizations. I don't stand on the "creationist" platform, and I don't support the "evolution" platform. I learned "evolution" as a "THEORY" in school. I just get uncomfortable that people discuss "evolution" as if it's a foregone conclusion, which it isn't. Vegetarianism was around tens of thousands of years ago in Vedic texts. Aurevedics performed surgeries as far back as 5000 years. If I had to choose, which I don't, between scientist and yogis, and between evolution and creationism....hmmm......well at least the yogis have a history of vegetarianism, living in caves and forests, and devotional service. The scientist will tell you anything for a Tenure. It seems the decision comes down to faith. Faith in the scientific community, or faith in vegetarian spiritualist who have been around for thousands of years. I guess my main point is this. Who cares what cave men were eating thousands of years ago. Their environment had nothing to do with our living conditions today. We go to the supermarket foraging for "organic" vegetables and fruits. If we garden, we don't live in fear of the wooly mammoth, but the Monsanto beast lurking to influence our seed selections. Our lives are impossible to compare to lost civilizations. In India I met a yogi who basically lived on twigs, and he had a luminous body. Another lived on a mountain top for 15 years...no one knows what he ingested up there. Nothing much that you or I could subsist on. I'm not trying to make an argument for creationism, but making the argument that evolution is not a scientific fact.

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    Cacique's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Do you believe that dogs came from wolves?

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    Hi Rainwater, I understand where you are coming from but I think that you are operating on a few false assumptions.

    - You seem to think that evolution happened in one burst at one time in one way. Evolution is a very broad phenomenon and human beings lived in very disparate populations, evolving different genetic traits at different times depending on what was advantageous, the genes of those who survived and procreated have been passed on since life began. There is no such thing as 'before evolution'

    - You are focussing on how some people have used evolution as a counter-argument to vegetarianism rather that evolution itself. As I said different groups of people evolved slightly differenty over thousands of years depending on their environment. It is very possible that people have developed traits which enable them to survive on less food, like the Indian gurus you mentioned.

    I am in no way a scientist but I think that your view of evolution is skewed by subjective negative perceptions. You are right that we don't know everything yet, but science ia discovering new things every day and it is very exciting.
    Houmous atá ann!

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Are you saying dogs "evolved" from wolves, or that dogs were "selectively bred" from wolves. The emergence of the domesticated dog from wolves is cloudy. There is a big difference. My opening sentence was misleading. I don't necessarily not believe in evolution. I just don't believe in evolution as "scientific fact". There are too many modern day archeologists who are not religiously affiliated that aren't in agreement with evolution theory. As far as vegetarianism is concerned, it was believed to be a "religious principle" as far back as 5,000/6,000 years in Aurevedic texts. Maybe even further back. Today, vegan/vegetarian lifestyle in U.S. is more accepted because people are getting tired of being sick, and we are getting more support from the medical community, marketing, and wholesome grocery stores. What did the religious of 6,000 years know that took us so long to figure? It feels more like de-evolution to me. I guess I'm anti-science to an extent. I made my decision to be vegetarian 45 years ago solely on emotional ground, without much community support. It just made sense. Now the doctors are proving what the hippies were trying to tell their parents and friends. My closing is this: There is no scientific fact to prove or disprove evolution or creationism. I don't necessarily not believe in evolution, but it just feels better in my soul to not believe it till it's proven. If I were pressed for an answer, I would say that I believe that all the universes were created. Just because it feels good like wanting to be vegetarian when I was 17 felt. And what I really believe is that it doesn't matter so much what one believes, but how one behaves. I believe that the higher being wouldn't care if you believed in him/her or not, in reincarnation or not, but that the footprint that we left was more important. I believe that vegan/vegetarianism is a religious principle and that everyone on this forum are a little closer to the higher idea whether they believe or not in a higher equation. Of course, I can't prove it, because it can't be proven scientifically. But I feel this deeply.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    If I were pressed for an answer, I would say that I believe that all the universes were created. Just because it feels good like wanting to be vegetarian when I was 17 felt.
    ...meaning that the scientific element just was removed 100% from the discussion
    Any theory about something or someone or what created the universe will be followed by another question (eg. "who or what created the energy that was needed to create the universe?")

    Archeologist are finding advanced civilizations that go back further and further all the time. Artifacts that date in the million years.
    What exactly is it that date in the millions of years?


    For any information supporting "evolution", there is just as much information supporting advanced civilizations before evolution.
    If there was advanced civilizations "before evolution", this doesn't mean that there's no info or evidence for evolution, but maybe just that the actual date evolution may be up for discussion.

    But, with all due respect: are you sure you agree with yourself?
    And - again, with all due respect - why do these things matter, if they do?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Good points. But as I said before, it's not about "believing in evolution" that I have a problem with. It's that people discuss evolution as a foregone scientific fact. Evolution has never been scientifically validated. The theory has been validated, but theoretical validation is just that, validation for a "theory", not a scientific fact. "Natural Selection" is good science, but this is environmental traits that are advantageous to the species. There is no hard scientific evidence for a different species to appear from another. I didn't mean to throw out science with my beliefs. My beliefs are what feel good, and until the theories are proven scientifically, that my beliefs are just as valid as any scientific "theory". It is a scientific fact that scientist have no understanding whatsoever how the universes came to be. Universe appearance is pure speculation and creative guesswork. No universe appearance theory (big bang, etc.) can be validated by any scientific knowledge, or research. I think the appearance of man and life is just as befuddling to scientists as the appearance of the universe. Our modern world has a fascination with scientist and what they say. As soon as scientific theory is printed, and scientists are well educated to be convincing, the public enjoys talking about theories as if they are foregone conclusions. I think it would be interesting to know how many vegetarians world wide believe in creation and how many believe in evolution for fun's sake. How many could care less about either? How many vegetarians believe in reincarnation, how many don't. Reincarnation has no scientific proof, yet a higher percentage of people believe in reincarnation....and most of them are probably vegetarians. Any correlation? Does reincarnation make more sense in a world where man "evolved", or was "created". Do we have an inner spiritual voice that talks to us and can show us what to believe in? Or do we have to wait for scientist to bungle around to give us theoretical answers. I know I didn't need a scientist to turn to vegetarianism. It was something that felt right before I even knew any hard evidence. I looked for more spiritual influences after becoming vegetarian. I also found that most spiritualist were vegetarian; the ones I was drawn to anyway. I'm willing to bet that most scientist eat meat, and I'm willing to believe that influences their world and what they want to spin. I'm willing to bet that most university regimes are not looking for scientists that would like to teach anti-evolution even though they may have just as much evidence as the status quo to the contrary. It's just a theory. Please don't take this thread too seriously, I hope you can feel the lightheartedness of my rhetoric. It's hard to convey in print.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    My beliefs are what feel good, and until the theories are proven scientifically, that my beliefs are just as valid as any scientific "theory".
    But - are you saying that you know for a fact that all the research which claims to have proof of species evolving over time is out of touch with reality - or is this an assumption?

    The word 'belief' can also be used about different things, like eg. 'assumption'. The bottom line for me, in such a context, is be that it doesn't matter much what we assume. Only reality counts.


    I think it would be interesting to know how many vegetarians world wide believe in creation and how many believe in evolution for fun's sake.
    Personally, I don't understand any of the theories. Both suggests that something or someone is created out of nothing. A more esoteric theory, but which still in some ways make more sense, is that there was no beginning, that the universe has no end etc. The theory of eternity. That's just a theory too, of course, but it doesn't require a valid explanation regarding "who/what created God" or "what created whatever it was which created Big Bang?".

    Like you, I think it's important to sometimes focus on the fact that theories only are theories. But is the theory that the universe was 'created' any better than the evolution theory? If so - how? And who created the creator?
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Quote rainwater View Post
    Good points. But as I said before, it's not about "believing in evolution" that I have a problem with. It's that people discuss evolution as a foregone scientific fact. Evolution has never been scientifically validated.
    Hi Rainwater

    The evidence for evolution, as an active process, is absolutely overwhelming.

    It is the evidence for 'accidental' first cause that is less so.

    People often get the idea that evolution and the existence of an intelligent creator/designer are mutualy exclusive.

    That is not so. The ability to evolve would be an incredibly intelligent thing to have built into any creation/design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Korn View Post
    And who created the creator?
    The million dollar question.

    Creationist theory relies entirely on the idea that our creator did/does not need a creator in order to exist.

    Possible, but that turns the argument that nothing intelligent can exist without a creator into a direct contradiction of itself.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Creationist theory relies entirely on the idea that our creator did/does not need a creator in order to exist.
    In other words: just another eternity theory, if the idea is that the Creator- or "something" which is powerful enough to create a creator always has existed.
    But - is the idea that a Creator always has existed really more convincing than a theory saying that the Universe always has existed?

    My conclusion is:

    A: Either 'something' has always existed, or there was a some kind of beginning where 'something' was created out of nothing.
    B: I assume (!) that creating a god or a Big Bang would be a very energy consuming task.
    C: I can't explain how a Big Bang or God can suddenly start to exist out of nothing. Energy can't create itself, because before energy that was no energy to create something.
    D: I'm not capable of able explaining how something can have existed forever.
    E: These matters have no real relevance for my life. It's all a big mystery, and that's fine with me.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    I take "E" ... no joker needed here

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    until the theories are proven scientifically, that my beliefs are just as valid as any scientific "theory".
    As discussed here one can't prove any scientific theory.

    The evidence for evolution is pretty strong, in my opinion, and I haven't come across a theory that explains the phenomena better - so far

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Wow! some interesting subjects. Dear Korn, I feel that natural selection and or evolution is probable within a species. I feel that evolving from primates is stretching. I've always felt that the creator (if he/she exists) would plan some evolution as part of creation. I find the concept of Creator beyond our conceivability if he/she does exist. I also feel that "empowered souls" (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc.) represent the Creator's personality in a way that we can understand and maybe follow their example to become closer to that which is. Dear Cupid Stunt, you make some interesting questions like who created the creator. These questions are infinite. I'm trying to present a case without being definitive or authoritative, because it's easy to refute the existence of Creator logically, and who am I. I get uncomfortable when people speak out authoritatively on the Creator/Supreme Being subject. Whether we choose to believe, not believe, or to not feel relevance either way is one question. It feels like gambling. If I don't believe, I could be rolling the dice against my soul. If I do believe, I could be rolling the dice against my intelligence. Not caring either way could be another option; maybe the right one! Are there some strict Religious Principle's that govern our souls and universal destinies??? If there are, then I would think the principles could be more important than the belief system. example: fundamental Christian who eats meat, judges others, commits crimes of intoxication, disrespectful sex, etc; yet believes wholeheartedly. Or the atheist who is vegetarian, keeps to a sober regime, etc. Please: this is a gross example, I embrace Christians and all religions. I'm trying to make the point of whether our actions have validity regardless of our beliefs. And if there is not a higher being, then do our lifestyles and actions have any consequence at all? Example: Are we vegan to just be healthy, or is there karmic action against those that eat flesh?

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Agreed Harpy!

    I am vegan, atheist and obviously evolution is fact at our house. We live modestly and treat everyone with respect. I believe that people as a whole are good and that you don't have to have a major consequence (hell or karma) to keep people in line. We are good people because we WANT to be...not because we HAVE to be.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Rainwater, did you ever think that if a creator existed, that he would WANT you to educate yourself and even err on the side of caution? If you are a good person, there's no reason why a deity would punish you for not believing in them, especially since they have not bothered popping down here to drop some evidence.

    I grew up in a crazy religious cult where they came up with what they wanted you to believe that god was telling you. It resulted in a ridiculous amount of fear towards anything that didn't have to do with the religion, and a ridiculous amount of fear towards god and satan. For my first 15 or so years of my life I "knew" if I disobeyed god I would die in the end of the world...never happened. In my early 20s I went to therapy to rid myself of those "demons". I challenged my beliefs and broke out of the mold of fear I was put in and now recognize myself as an atheist. The one thing I learned is that if a god exists, there's no reason why he has to be the vengeful deity from the bible that will burn you if you don't blindly believe in him.

    I've tried to post this link before, but it wouldn't let me. It seems to explain the whole thing of calling evolution a fact and a theory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...heory_and_fact

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Quote rainwater View Post
    Dear Cupid Stunt, you make some interesting questions like who created the creator. These questions are infinite ...
    Infinite questions indeed!

    In buddhism there are three named things that contemplation upon leads directly to insanity. One of those is contemplating upon first cause.

    Not rocket science that, mind.

    Same as trying to put a quart into a pint pot; You'se gonna end up with something of a mess if you try to ram the answers to infinite questions into anything less than an infinite head.
    All done in the best possible taste ...

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    jaye
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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    I do know if you are the only one, however you are in a 0.15% group of earth and life scientist. 99.85% of us find evolution theory valid.

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm#earth this link includes further information on the variety of polls conducted.

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    Default Re: Am I the only one here that doesn't believe in evolution?

    Good point Cacique! My point exactly. For hypothetical argument, I going to use you and your family as good people. You are atheist, vegan, evolution is fact, live modestly, and that you believe most people are good is your reality, or projection (projecting your goodness on/towards others). Now, how about the bad people on earth. The Monsantos, who litigate against small farmers to toe the line, or forfeit their farm to litigation, and threaten our organic cultures. The international industrialists who plunder third world countries through corrupt leaders to take advantage of their natural resources, usually oil. Corrupt politicians who sell their souls to these giant culprits. Regimes that genocide for industrial gain. Everyday criminals, rapists, murderers, drug peddlers to minors, pedophiles. "MEAT EATERS" who support slaughter houses. I'm sure many of these culprits have religious beliefs. I'm asking are the actions more significant than one's beliefs. According to me (who is religious) you would be closer to the God you don't believe in than these listed culprits who do believe in God. For the record, I believe most people are good, but the bad ones seem to have the most effect on this world. There are some very bad people on this Earth. One more point, if there is no God, and no religious principles, what is the impetus to be good? Good people turn out to be the bad people's suckers. And why not? There is no karma, no true principles but one's own set of rules, and probably no afterlife. I would also say, for argument sake, that your ideas of being good are influenced by ancient religious principles that were set in motion millennia ago. For fun sake, a vedantist (ancient Indian text) would say that you are good because your soul has memory from many past lives of being vegetarian, good family person, and kind soul that you project onto those around you; that you are atheist and believe in evolution is irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you jaye. I'm also part of a 1% group that believes not eating animal products is good for me, good for the earth, and good for the animals. Instead of the 99% who believe otherwise in this country.
    Last edited by Korn; May 31st, 2013 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Thread closed. One topic per thread, please... Start new threads about new topics (if such threads doesn't already exist).

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