Mortified by TNR community. How do I deal?

[Garbo]

I am very upset right now. I really need some support or feedback. Are there any vegans here who also do TNR?

I got TNR certified (Trap-Neuter-Return) last year and have been trying my best to curtail the reproduction of a few feral cats that are outside in my building development. So far I have TNR'd 4 cats, 3 males and one female. There is still one very smart calico that has eluded me for over a year.

Due to flea season now and not wanting to hold feral cats in my apt. (I have 3 cats of my own) I have reached out and connected with other TNR people who are providing me with their recovery space.

Early this morning I went over to the spay/neuter clinic to meet the woman who I will call "M" who is letting me use her space. I expressed my deep appreciation to her for enabling me to do TNR during this time of year.

Outside, while talking to "M" I was within earshot of a conversation by another gal who I will call 'C" about "eating meat" and "the chain of life" (or cycle of life ... don't remember). My adrenalin started to kick in and I felt behooved to try to jog some higher consciousness. Here is some of the dialogue:

Me to "M" (who by the way was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer a year ago, is considerably overweight, and overly-talkative): This idea about "the chain of life"-- we are not physiologically carnivores, or omnivores ... we are herbivores ...

M: {puzzled look]

Then "M" and "C" started talking and I was ready to leave anyway, but before leaving I reached into my bag and handed them each the Mercy For Animals "Why Love One But Eat The Other" brochure, saying "I couldn't help but overhear you talk about "the chain of life" ... perhaps you'd like to read this so as to think about things in a different way ... "

C: Oh no, oh no ... I can't look at this. I'm a meat-eater. (The both of them handed me back the brochure)

Me: Well then maybe you should look at it.

C: I know I'm not perfect but I have to eat meat

Me: Animals are not meat, anymore than I think you would agree that cats are not meat

M: I don't know, I still love a moo-moo on my table.

I accepted the brochures back and just said a cordial goodbye to "M" again expressing my gratitude.


Help. I am so depressed right now. Maybe it's because I am semi-reclusive and have shielded myself for quite a while from encountering these attitudes that I find this heavy concentration of speciesist insanity and stupidity so painful, so upsetting. I find these type of "animal-lovers" to be quite nuts.

I am of the mind right now that I cannot associate with such ignorance and will either have to give up doing TNR, or find a way to be totally self-sufficient.

Any thoughts, any comfort?

[The Mighty Bosh]

How do you deal with being a Vegan and then performing TNR, it goes against my whole ideology of what Veganism is to me.

[harpy]

Hello, I haven't got much time to write at the moment but I wanted to say quickly that I'm sorry you had this experience and are depressed.

I'm afraid there are loads of people who are "animal-lovers" but draw the line at not eating them :/ All you can do in my opinion is what you did: have a go at getting them interested and if they won't, just move on and see if the next person is more receptive. You never know, even if they reject the idea in the first instance, some of them may come back to it later.

Rather than give up your worthwhile TNR work, maybe see if you can find some vegans to hang out with? That might make the other ones easier to stand!

All the best

[Blueberries]

Hi Garbo, I'm sorry you have to deal with such silly people

If someone said to me that they need to eat a 'moo-moo' I think I would just say 'luckily I don't moo otherwise you'd eat me!!!'

How do you deal with being a Vegan and then performing TNR, it goes against my whole ideology of what Veganism is to me.

What do you think is wrong with TNR? Pet overpopulation is a huge issue and dealing with feral animals before they get the chance to reproduce is the best way to deal with it.

[Astrid660]

Just remember, people are raised and brainwashed to eat meat. It's not a personal attack that they won't listen to you, or think they really do need meat. That's not your fault. Keep up the good work with the TNR. (First I've heard of such a thing!) I think it's a good idea to help with pet overpopulation. We have a big feral cat problem in my town, too. People get cats, then don't want them anymore so they just let 'em go! It's crazy how many people in my town complain about not knowing what to do, and just seeing these cats multiply and/or starve to death or get sick with various illness.

[Cacique]

Garbo, it's like Astrid said, these people were raised and LITERALLY brainwashed into the meat culture. I grew up in a high control religion (cult) with parents that couldn't answer my questions in true fashion, so I questioned everything. The day I met my girlfriend and she introduced me to veganism, I was ready to question my meat eating, and short after that made the decision. These people are in a place where they don't feel ready or comfortable with questioning their whole meat eating deal. I'm sorry that you had to deal with that.

I agree with Harpy about finding some vegan friends, maybe a meet up group or something. It's always good to have people around that think similarly on important topics in your life.

[taekvideo]

My mom's like that too. She calls herself an "animal lover" and freaks out anytime there's a fake animal on a fake tv show getting hurt, yet she willingly pays companies to raise animals in terrible conditions on factory farms and kill them for her. I gave up trying to understand it... most people are deluded/brainwashed about a lot of things... eating meat is just one example.

[Mymblesdaughter]

I find it hard with people who say they care about animals and actually do get involved with helping animals. It's seems strange that they don't think about things a little bit more deeply. Unfortunately most people just want to live an easy and happy life and that means not thinking too much.


Why would TNR be against ideology of Veganism? Being Vegan doesn't mean we leave animals to die horrible and painful deaths anymore than we would people. These are feral domestic animals, they aren't wild cats.

[harpy]

I can't speak for anyone else, but some people see neutering as interfering with animals and their rights to reproduce, etc. I can't say I exactly like the idea but to me it's by far the lesser of two evils, given the shortage of homes and the wretched lives feral cats often have.

[The Mighty Bosh]

Hi Garbo, I'm sorry you have to deal with such silly people

If someone said to me that they need to eat a 'moo-moo' I think I would just say 'luckily I don't moo otherwise you'd eat me!!!'



What do you think is wrong with TNR? Pet overpopulation is a huge issue and dealing with feral animals before they get the chance to reproduce is the best way to deal with it.

Human overpopulation is a massive problem world wide, lets TNR a couple billion people.

[Blueberries]

Human overpopulation is a massive problem world wide, lets TNR a couple billion people.

People can be educated about contraception and make reproductive choices, feral cats can't.

[The Mighty Bosh]

Would you define an animal lover as someone who keeps animals in captivity, away from their natural habitat, who breeds them for their offsprings only to take them away from their mothers at a young age, you Cry about the poor Lamb that is taken from its mother or the Calf that is slaughterd so that its mother can produce more Milk, Yet when it comes to your beloved Pets no wrong doing can be seen. Feral Cats are a by product of your cause of demand.

[Blueberries]

Feral Cats are a by product of your cause of demand.

You're talking to vegans, you don't need to tell us. I agree with you that feral cat problems are caused by the irresponsibility of some pet 'owners'. So TNR is only a part of dealing with the issue, the other is educating people about rescuing instead of breeding companion animals.

[harpy]

Feral Cats are a by product of your cause of demand.

Not sure who you mean by "you", here, TMB? The overwhelming majority of vegans that I've come across, if they have companion animals at all, will only have ones that are "rescues", i.e. are homeless for some reason. So they don't create demand for more animals to be bred - and they don't breed from theirs.

I think most would probably also agree with you that it would have been better if domestication of cats and dogs hadn't happened in the first place, but it's done now. TNR is an attempt to mitigate the impact of it.

[Clueless Git]

I agree with you that feral cat problems are caused by the irresponsibility of some pet 'owners'.

Unfortunately, BB, anyone who does anything unnecessary that is harmfull when copied by irresponsible people is being irresponsible themself.

Pet ownership is unnecesary.

Pet ownership is harmfull when copied by irresponsible people.

Responsible pet ownership is as much an oxymoron as are 'humane slaughter', 'compassion in farming', 'meat eating animal lover', etc ..

[Mymblesdaughter]

I don't own pets but I do have a couple of cats who live in my house with me.

No vegans that I've met are for pet ownership, they just try to help with the problem that humans have created. By taking in some of the unfortunate victims.

The alternative to TNR for most councils is pest control. So killing feral cats, is that what vegans should be supporting? I suppose it's more natural because it's animals higher up on the food chain killing them.

[Clueless Git]

.. it would have been better if domestication of cats and dogs hadn't happened in the first place, but it's done now.

Harpy, not having a go at you, but!

The above is a version of the meatarded argument that as the breeding of food animals has long since been in progress it is now impossible to just stop eating them.

So they don't create demand for more animals to be bred

Anyone who makes animal ownership seem like a desirable thing increases the demand for animals.

Percieved or actual demand can only ever have the effect of stimulating supply.

Percieved or actual demand for abandoned animals can only ever have the effect of stimualting the supply end of the abandonded animal supply and demand chain.

[Blueberries]

Just to clarify, I put 'owners' in inverted commas to indicate that I don't use or agree with the term (animals aren't property).

I used it to refer to people who see animals that way and therefore act in ways which contribute to pet overpopulation problems.

I don't have any companion animals living with me at the moment, although I would be open to adopting a dog one day.

[Clueless Git]

No vegans that I've met are for pet ownership, they just try to help with the problem that humans have created. By taking in some of the unfortunate victims.

The logic is akin to being against slavery but, to try and help with a problem that humans have created, taking in a few slaves of your own.

Not a perfect analogy that ..

You could rescue slaves and make them free men/women.

But pets is pets is pets is pets.

So, with pets you can't.

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Just to clarify, I put 'owners' in inverted commas to indicate that I don't use or agree with the term (animals aren't property).

Just to clarify, if you have a pet you own it which makes you a pet owner wich makes the pet your property.

Doesn't matter if we agree with the term 'pet ownership' or not.

When we take ownership of a pet then make an animal our property is exactly what we do.

[Johnstuff]

It's a tricky one with meat eaters who also want to help animals. I know someone who does consume some animal products but also supports cat and dog resucues etc.
I try to phrase things as best I can and not be to personal so I said "I don't see how someone can consistanly claim to represent the interests of animals if they have a lifestyle that actively involves killing and exploiting them, especially given how easy it is to live as a vegan here in the UK."
I almost felt bad like I'd been insulting or something.

[Mymblesdaughter]

These arguments would be ok if we lived in a different world. I personally hate to see an animal suffer and that's what it comes down to in the end. When I see an animal or human suffering I will try to help it. If I was hard hearted enough to put my cats out on the street to let them fend for themselves and die then I wouldn't have decided to become a Vegan in the first place.

Harpy, not having a go at you, but! The above is a version of the meatarded argument that as the breeding of food animals has long since been in progress it is now impossible to just stop eating them.

TNR is a way to reduce numbers so eventually there will be no feral cats. This is not something that meat eaters use as an argument, they usually say 'what will happen to all the animals we eat they will die out'. The whole point for TNR is for that to happen.

Do we own our family or are they our property, I would take responsibility for my children if I had them, does it mean I own them? My sister adopted her children so does she own them because she didn't actually give birth to them. I would say no.

[harpy]

TNR is a way to reduce numbers so eventually there will be no feral cats.

Yes, and campaigning to encourage people only to have rescue animals, and to neuter them, could also eliminate domestic cats and dogs in theory - not likely in the foreseeable future, admittedly.

[Garbo]

Thank you all for any of the supportive comments and the reminder about "repetition of a message". I have no doubt that saying something within that short window of time that we usually only have, is important. And methinks alot of these people who "doth protest too much" can eventually be reached. Like come on ... defending the eating of meat with the cycle of life notion at 7 am in the morning outside a spay/neuter clinic? Hmmm ... interesting.

As for TNR being "more interference" in the animal world, yes I agree with you, and don't think that as a vegan I do not grapple with this painfully. What additionally disturbs me about the vast majority of TNR people is "the satisfaction" they claim they derive in trapping a cat and neutering it. One woman on a message board actually used the word "addictive" which set my alarms off that there is some perverse hunting thing operating in these people. When I took issue with it I was told that I don't understand what they are trying to do and perhaps I should put my efforts elsewhere. It would be nice if they all framed doing TNR through a vegan lens because then they would stop creating suffering elsewhere with their carnism.

Ok so let me say this about TNR. Feral cats, adults and kittens suffer ... from the cold, from fleas, from untreated sickness, from starvation from foul play of evil people, etc. For me it is about reduction and hopefully prevention of suffering. Ahimsa doesn't claim to ever be able to eliminate all suffering. It is the intent to try that is important. I take no pleasure in trapping an animal and seeing it freak out, for however short-term that is ... and then sterilizing him/her ... many times having to abort kittens in-utero ... then having to put it back out. But what is the alternative? To let these animals roam and breed free like the cows in India? That is another dark story.

To me it is a necessary evil. Short of exterminating all these animals off the streets, it is the best benign form of damage control for the mess and the madness we have created by domesticating animals. For which can be said that they live better outdoor lives because the males don't fight, and the females only have to fend for themselves.

It is all very troubling ... but we vegans do the best we can ...

P.S. I re-connected with a vegan TNR person who helped with a senior semi-feral rescue I fostered 2 years ago. I still had her number and we had a lovely lunch. Plus all your support here has gotten me past it and ready to keep up the good fight.

[Garbo]

If someone said to me that they need to eat a 'moo-moo' I think I would just say 'luckily I don't moo otherwise you'd eat me!!!'

Good comeback Blueberries. Unfortunately I'm not that quick or witty especially when I feel very seriously about something. And then there's that short window of time that we usually get to say whatever we can say as the "good ambassador of veganism". I'm still making a conscious effort to mask the anger inside me and present myself in a non-threatening way.

[Garbo]

Thanks for the support Astrid. Actually I googled on the search "TNR in Canada" for you and came up with this interesting, troubling, article http://www.skepticnorth.com/2011/05/...pseudoscience/ which posits what I will call a "Final Solution" for feral cats because they say there is no clear evidence that TNR is being successful. And actually I believe Ingrid Newkirk of PETA is in favor of mass euthanasia. She calls TNR "TNA" (Trap Neuter and Abandon).

All I can do is operate from my heart. I can't bear the thought of what the other camp is saying.

I do know that we're going to reap what we have sown.

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Garbo, it's like Astrid said, these people were raised and LITERALLY brainwashed into the meat culture. I grew up in a high control religion (cult) with parents that couldn't answer my questions in true fashion, so I questioned everything 'bless the child whose got his own". I love people who question everything. The day I met my girlfriend and she introduced me to veganism say hi and thank you to her , I was ready to question my meat eating, and short after that made the decision. These people are in a place where they don't feel ready or comfortable with questioning their whole meat eating deal. I'm sorry that you had to deal with that. Thank you Cacique. Do you know of any vegan restaurants in the Fort Lauderdale area? I'm in NYC and may be visiting someone who is vegan sympathetic but not actively vegan, and want to treat them.

I agree with Harpy about finding some vegan friends, maybe a meet up group or something. It's always good to have people around that think similarly on important topics in your life.

[Garbo]

Not sure who you mean by "you", here, TMB? The overwhelming majority of vegans that I've come across, if they have companion animals at all, will only have ones that are "rescues", i.e. are homeless for some reason. So they don't create demand for more animals to be bred - and they don't breed from theirs.

I think most would probably also agree with you that it would have been better if domestication of cats and dogs hadn't happened in the first place, but it's done now. Exactly, the die has been cast. TNR is an attempt to mitigate the impact of it. Yes, exactly.

[Garbo]

Unfortunately, BB, anyone who does anything unnecessary that is harmfull when copied by irresponsible people is being irresponsible themself.

Pet ownership is unnecesary.

Pet ownership is harmfull when copied by irresponsible people.

Responsible pet ownership is as much an oxymoron as are 'humane slaughter', 'compassion in farming', 'meat eating animal lover', etc ..

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This is a futuristic vision that you have. One that will be even more difficult to attain than a critical mass going vegan, in my opinion. People resist the idea of the abolition of companion animals even more vehemently than going veg. People use animals for their emotional needs. That's as highly charged if not more than their need for food sustenance. So the problem is going to continue. Until we reap what we sow.

TNR is the best proactive way that we know of right now to deal with the immediate reality of the situation. It's not perfect, but for a huge mess of a problem, at least it's something.

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It's a tricky one with meat eaters who also want to help animals. I know someone who does consume some animal products but also supports cat and dog resucues etc.
I try to phrase things as best I can and not be to personal so I said "I don't see how someone can consistanly claim to represent the interests of animals if they have a lifestyle that actively involves killing and exploiting them, especially given how easy it is to live as a vegan here in the UK."
I almost felt bad like I'd been insulting or something.

You were not insulting at all. You were candid and direct in your truth without being inflammatory, that's all. If they get insulted, it's their problem. I don't like to coddle people or beat around the bush. I'm still working on what to say, and how to say it without giving vegans a bad image. It hard. I know.

[Cacique]

Hey Garbo, I only know of 1 fully vegan restaurant in Fort Lauderdale. It's on US1, but not sure the intersecting street lol. It's called Sublime, and a little on the high end, fancy type restaurant. Great place, great food, great atmosphere, but expensive lol.

If you check sites like happycow or something you might be able to find more restaurants.

[Garbo]

Ah yes, Sublime. I'm happy to get what I pay for, especially if it can impress a non-vegan. yes thank I'll check out Happy Cow too.

[Clueless Git]

It's a tricky one with meat eaters who also want to help animals. I know someone who does consume some animal products but also supports cat and dog resucues etc.
I try to phrase things as best I can and not be to personal so I said "I don't see how someone can consistanly claim to represent the interests of animals if they have a lifestyle that actively involves killing and exploiting them, especially given how easy it is to live as a vegan here in the UK."
I almost felt bad like I'd been insulting or something.

A little ramble leading to a point on that one ..

M'other half, Eileen Dover, told me of a slaughterman that lived in her village. During the day he killed animals for a living. During his free time he dedicated himself to breeding and caring for his aviary of birds.

It occured to me that the latter, caring for and nurturing life, may well have been a coping mechanism for internal conflicts over being a bringer of death every day.

I wonder if meat eaters who feel a need to help certain animals are also trying to balance an internal conflict over what they do to other animals.

[Clueless Git]

People use animals for their emotional needs.

Very much so and peoples 'use' of rescue/feral animals cannot be excluded from that.

[Garbo]

A little ramble leading to a point on that one ..

M'other half, Eileen Dover, told me of a slaughterman that lived in her village. During the day he killed animals for a living. During his free time he dedicated himself to breeding and caring for his aviary of birds.

It occured to me that the latter, caring for and nurturing life, may well have been a coping mechanism for internal conflicts over being a bringer of death every day.

I wonder if meat eaters who feel a need to help certain animals are also trying to balance an internal conflict over what they do to other animals.

Yes thank you this is a good insight to mention. In line with what you are saying I have thought that alot of these people who "doth protest too much" can eventually be reached. Like come on ... this TNR person was talking about the eating of meat and defending it with the chain of life notion at 7 am in the morning outside a spay/neuter clinic. It struck me as bizarre.

It galvanizes me and (us) to keep brochures in my bag and speak up and "disturb" whenever I am in a situation such as my original post describes ... whether I am included in the conversation or not.

[Garbo]

People use animals for their emotional needs.

Very much so and peoples 'use' of rescue/feral animals cannot be excluded from that.

I agree. The reason I started doing TNR is because one night while taking a walk I noticed one little calico who seemed feral and I knew that no one was going to do anything so I felt elected. I put up a sign in the building and the "feeder" -- an 80 year old widower contacted me. He has admitted that he has an emotional attachment to feeding the cats. He believes the one cat he took in, because it grabbed his arm through the bushes and lay contentedly in his arms, was sent to him by his deceased second wife who died five years ago. His first wife when he was very young absconded with his children (who he has not been able to find) when they were about 2 years old. He also is in therapy for a hoarding problem in his apt. Though it's more of a father/daughter/friend dynamic, he also has expressed some kind of crush on me, I'm 60. Fortunately he knows I have a beau. I do not like doing the TNR as the cats are trained by him to come around very late at night, and there are numerous logistical problems I've had to work around, and this friendship/attachment that John feels for me is something I didn't bargain for. He's created the problem which I kind of resent, but then again, I can't be so hard on him because it's cruel not to feed them. He appreciated my intervention because he doesn't want to see the vicious cycle of suffering kittens and adult cats, and, he would also have to spend more on cat food (cheap wet crap and dry food that he buys ... drives me crazy) on his limited income.

Anyway, my general point is, the neurosis and madness that domestication of animals has created is such a profound quagmire ... I don't know what the answer is while people remain so askew in their thinking about what our relationship with animals should be.

Again I'll say ... these animal-lovers who are not vegan ... ARE NUTS!

[The Mighty Bosh]

after reading all the post in favour of TNR and doing a little research online, I still do not agree with it but do see it as a nessesary evil in order for the human race to be allowed to overpopulated every corner of this planet.

back to the original post, People are People, what some think is right others think is wrong, you can't go through life being upset by what other people say or do, life is to short for that.

[micthemini]

I volunteer at an animal sanctuary and I think that neutering is important.
An unneutered female cat can have a lot of problems when giving birth, especially if feral. If there are any complications there will be no one around to help, once the kits are born they could be ill and they may not survive, or they spread disease. If they survive they they go on and breed.
The male cats cause problems by spraying, they harass the females, they hurt the females (especially during sex), they fight, and they have a higher risk of cancer.
The myth that you should allow a cat to have a litter is so untrue. It's like saying humans need to have children - utter tosh.
And even though in an ideal world we shouldn't have pets, the world isn't ideal. In an ideal world we wouldn't kill each other, there would be enough food to go around etc etc. But some people are lonely and need companionship, and a pet is what they have. Ownership is a difficult word, as Mymblesdaughter said, and there is a saying that dogs have owner cats have slaves.
But whatever the argument about owning, I still think that neutering ferels is a good thing.

[The Mighty Bosh]

People can be educated about contraception and make reproductive choices, feral cats can't.

So why are we so over populated?

[Mymblesdaughter]

Because people in third world countries don't get educated about contraception and if they do they get the Catholic church telling them it's wrong. They have lots of children as there are no pensions NHS etc so they need someone to look after them when they get old. Also people are living longer. Most developing countries aren't actually growing, apart from immigration.

I take it you aren't having any children Mighty Bosh?

[Clueless Git]

Because people in third world countries don't get educated about contraception and if they do they get the Catholic church telling them it's wrong.

WRONG!

You can educate the genuinely impoverished about contraception untill the cows come home.

Large families are the social security and pension system of the genuinely poor.

No one is going to be 'educated' into giving up the only social security and pension system that is actualy available to them.


Not having a pop at you there, MD. Education is indeed important and it is indeed an essential part of any solution.

Poverty is, in more ways than you can shake a stick at, the root problem though. Untill that is addressed (which means us having less so they can have more) everything is ignoring the sickness and dabbing at the pussie (pus-ie?) sores.

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So why are we so over populated?

As above.

Many children is the SS and pension system of a large part of the world.

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So why are we so over populated?

As above.

Many children is the SS and pension system of a large part of the world.

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So why are we so over populated?

As above.

Many children is the SS and pension system of a large part of the world.

[Tamzen]

I'm not going to get into the discussion about TNR, but I just wanted to add to the discussion that I have had a similar "WTF" experience with "animal-lovers". I volunteer for an organisation that does TNR, and luckily everything is run with a vegan ethos - vegan bake sales, vegan snacks at meetings etc. HOWEVER, I had a run-in via Facebook with members of a similar organisation with the same name in a different city. They were running a BEEF TASTING FUNDRAISER!! I just couldn't get over it... and then when I pointed out how ridiculous it was to eat an animal to raise money to help another animal they attacked me. I asked what the difference was between a cat and a cow, and they really honestly said things like, "Duh what a stupid question!! The difference is that one is a pet and one is a farm animal! ONE IS A PET, ONE IS FOOD, ARE YOU HONESTLY THAT STUPID?!" & I was asked where it is I think the beef I buy in the supermarket comes from lol. Yeah, I don't buy beef cause I'm not a flaming hypocrite.

[harpy]

They sound, er, intellectually challenged TBH, Tamzen. You'd think the act of expressing it that way (pet vs food) would make them at least realise there might be another way of looking at it. Maybe they will later.

[Tamzen]

These were my thoughts exactly, their argument was so flawed and just came across as so unintelligent that I couldn't believe I had the minority opinion. I hope they will one day click, but they were very vehement in their senseless nonsense and were validated by many a supporter so TBH I highly doubt it.

[Cacique]

Thanks for sharing that story, Tamzen. I would have replied (if I had thought about it at the moment, probably not) with something like "So...one is a pet and the other a farm animal. Considering they're BOTH animals, you're just going by a construct of your own mind, trying to protect yourself from the realization that you might as well be eating your dog or cat, you just don't want to realize your pet is just as much of an animal as a farm animal."