Should euthanasia ever be considered for ailing pets?

[dreama]

I was just wondering how other vegans felt on this matter.

[celtic rose]

Although it is act of killing it is also to prevent suffering, but only at the very end when all else has failed.
This also applies for people as well as "pets".

Which is crueler, the suffering or the killing?

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I have been made to feel the 'villian' on this issue in the past, but I believe it is one thing we can do for animals which we would also probably do for humans, too, if it was acceptable. That is, put an end to their suffering. Personally, I hate to see dogs 'on wheels', or animals so incontinent that they sit in their own filth.

[Leigh]

I think the trouble with euthanasing pets is that it's far too easy for people. Instead of it being a final possible solution it gets used far too often out of convenience, I think.

I'm also a firm believer in voluntary euthanasia for people. Why is it okay for us to decide when our animals have suffered enough, but it's not okay for terminally ill people to decide for themselves that they've suffered enough

[Stu]

Leigh, I would like to echo your words precisely.

I add though, that I feel strongly in favour of euthanasia, but only in extreme circumstances. I.e. the person or animal is suffering badly and leads a purely miserable existence.

I've never understood why it's OK for animals, but not for humans. But then again, I've never understood the attitude most people seem to have towards non-human creatures.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I disagree, it is not 'easy' to get an animal put to sleep these days, you have to give a Vet. a valid reason (over here, in any case). That is exactly why so many animals are chucked out on the streets or killed by the owners in appalling ways. I'm not saying that you shouldn't need a valid reason to have an animal put to sleep, but in some cases it would be far preferable to what some poor creatures have to live through, believe me.

I have had to deal with putting LOTS of animals down through working with them for years - Horses are the worst thing as they are usually shot in the head with a Humane killer while you have to steady them, it breaks your heart and it doesn't get any easier. However, I cannot bear to see them in unrelenting pain and suffering.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Just wanted to add that I literally do see animals as my equals, and treat them ALWAYS how I myself would like to be treated, so I would only euthanase as a last resort if - there is nothing more to be done.

[Geoff]

I agree that euthanasia should only be a last resort. Unfortunately, with wildlife, we are compelled to euthanase any animal that we consider unable to survive in the wild.
I think it's very dangerous to legalise it for people, as pressure may be brought on the elderly who's relatives may wish them gone, for financial or other reasons. There have been times when I wanted to die and I'm glad that there were not easy means available for me to do so.

[dreama]

[QUOTE=PinkFluffyCloud] I hate to see dogs 'on wheels', [QUOTE]

Do you feel the same way about people in wheelchairs?

I agree with Geoff that Authanasia would be abused if legalized for people. It is abused when used with animals. I hate when animals get put down just because they are old and/or disabled.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

[QUOTE=dreama][QUOTE=PinkFluffyCloud] I hate to see dogs 'on wheels',

Do you feel the same way about people in wheelchairs?

I agree with Geoff that Authanasia would be abused if legalized for people. It is abused when used with animals. I hate when animals get put down just because they are old and/or disabled.

No, I don't feel the same about people in wheelcahirs, they haven't had wheels surgically attached to their legs, and, unless they are terribly unfortunate, they have a voice that they can use to express an opinion about their situation. I would never put down an animal *just* because they are old and/or disabled, but only if they are obviously suffering pretty much constantly.

It is just as much 'playing God' to pump an animal with drugs just to dull their pain enough for them to give you a few more months of companionship, in my opinion. Last year I had to have our Rabbit put to sleep because he had teeth which kept growing into the sides of his mouth. However often they were clipped, the problem recurred, due to poor tooth formation. He was getting abcesses in his mouth and in the end could only eat through a syringe. This was the loveliest, funniest, most intelligent little Rabbit companion I could wish for, and I certainly did not want to see him go. If he had been a human, there would have been more help available, other options.
But he was a Rabbit, and Rabbits have ever-growing teeth, so this was a serious problem, he was starving to death. That is the difference between animals and people - animals have been bred as companions and have specific breed-related, or species related, problems that we cannot always 'fix'. Should I have let him starve to death?

[dreama]

Sorry to hear about your rabbit. I had to have a chinchilla PTS because of tooth problems. I felt terribly guilty about it but I was advised by several Chinchilla experts plus my vet and read on the net that the condition was really painful.

I don't think dog on wheels are surgically fixed onto a pet. They are just strapped on so the dog can be mobile again. I think it's a really neat idea myself.

You are wrong to assume that people keep their ailing pets around for selfish reasons though. Older pets take a lot of time and energy. Not to mention the cost in vet bills. They can be really annoying too. If I was selfish I think it would be more conveient for me to have them PTS sooner rather then latter. I just don't believe it's right to kill an animal who still has some pleasure in life.

[phillip888]

Well, I see compassion wins. I believe that dying old people should get all the opiates (or equivelant) they want until they want to die. Humans too.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Well, I see compassion wins. I believe that dying old people should get all the opiates (or equivelant) they want until they want to die. Humans too.

Exactly!!! Animals *are* different to us - and one of those differences is that when they *want* to die, they will usually crawl off somewhere quiet to do just that. Except that we keep in tune with our lifestyles, now. How do you know if an animal wants to die? Whats the criteria???

Sometimes we have to make decisions for them - as we have usually already done throughout their lives. I pretty much treat any animal I have contact with in the same manner as I would my son, so I don't take decisions lightly.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

BTW, we have a GSD with some Hip Dysplasia, and I think it would be the ultimate in humiliation to have her surgically strapped to wheels if she could no longer use her legs. I'm talking HER humiliation, not mine!

[tails4wagging]

It's all to do with quality of life, isnt it. I think everybody who has a pet will recognise when the animal has had enough.

Regarding people I think the same. Having nursed for many years I have seen lots of patients who would have thanked me for putting them out of agony and have felt frustrated I couldnt.

[Geoff]

I was once helping to feed some seriously brain damaged babies at the Central Middlesex Hospital and I said to one of the doctors that it seemed pointless keeping them alive. He asked me if I could kill them and, of course, I said no. Most of such babies die anyway, having no senses at all seems to stop them thriving.
As someone said: 'Thou shalt not kill; but needst not strive, officiously, to keep alive'

[dreama]

Pink Fluffy Cloud: Maybe it's because we see wheelchairs differantly. They liberate people who cant walk. I've read all about the dog on wheels and they also seem liberating for the less mobile pets. In fact I've heard a lot of good things about 'dogon wheels' Surgery does not take place. It's just a cannine/feline wheelchair. If Jilli couldn't move her back legs I would certainly look into 'dogon wheels' for her so she could be happy, mobile and free again.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

By 'surgically' attached I mean as in the way you would 'surgically' attach a bandage or a splint.
Yes, I think we do see wheelchairs differently, I would see one (if I had to use one) as a moblie incarceration unit. I like your definition, though!

[dreama]

PFC: compaired to dragging yourself round with crutches or a zimmer frame wheelchairs are liberating. You can move faster. You even have wheelchair races at the paraolypics.

Back on topic: I'm having to make this decison for my rat Peaches at the moment. At times she is quite happy and lively but she is mostly miserable these days. As she eats very little she seems to be slowly starving herself to death due to an unremovable tumour. I'm feeling terribly guilty about having to kill her. I still pray that she dies naturally before I take her to the vet but she probably won't.

[dreama]

Just to say Peaches was Euthanized this morning. I feel terribly guilty about it.

[feline01]

Just to say Peaches was Euthanized this morning. I feel terribly guilty about it.

Sorry dreama, don't feel guilty. If it ended her suffering and there were no other alternatives, she's out of pain now and you did the right thing.

[Geoff]

Just to say Peaches was Euthanized this morning. I feel terribly guilty about it.

I agree with feline. It can be an agonizing decision. I can imagine how you feel as I had the vet come several times to euthanase my first dog, who had cancer in her head, and several times I asked her to leave it as Chrissy seemed a bit better. We eventually did it and the vet never sent a bill.

[laura1983]

It's all to do with quality of life, isnt it. I think everybody who has a pet will recognise when the animal has had enough.

I agree absolutely with you T4W. As a veterinary medicine student i will have to put animals to sleep in the future and i have already witnessed the practice of euthanasia on many occasions. I believe that every person and animal wants to die with dignity and without pain and if this requires euthanasia then that should be the case. It is not trying to be god, coz i know when i have to to put an animal to sleep in the near future i will not be feeling at all godly, in fact i will be heartbroken and i know that it will probably not get any easier with time. But, i will know that i have released that animal from suffering and pain that would NOT have got any better and that i have allowed them to pass away with dignity and without suffering.

[dreama]

Thanks Geoff and Feline.

Geoff: You are lucky to have a sypathetic vet who understood about you changing your mind and not charge you. The vet who helped me Euthanize Peaches was also very understanding. I was with Peaches right till the very end.

[sylkan]

I agree that euthanasia should only be a last resort. Unfortunately, with wildlife, we are compelled to euthanase any animal that we consider unable to survive in the wild.
I think it's very dangerous to legalise it for people, as pressure may be brought on the elderly who's relatives may wish them gone, for financial or other reasons. There have been times when I wanted to die and I'm glad that there were not easy means available for me to do so.

Legalising assisted suicide as opposed to euthanasia would likely be a much better and more easily managable choice.

A man near where I live euthanised his daughter who was sick with cerebral palsy. Her existence was miserable, but she had a father who loved her so much that he couldn't see her in pain anymore. He got ten years in jail and is now on house arrest. I sympathise with him greatly, but I would worry if they had let him off completely. It could open the doors to a whole host of people killing those who do not wish to die.

[tails4wagging]

Yes, during my nursing career, many a time I thought it was so cruel to keep patients alive, often in pain. At least with our loved pets we can release them.

As you see in a previous thread of mine, I had a elderly dog I rescued from the pound I only had her a week, which was filled with love. She had a grand mal fit and did not recover and I had to let her go at the vets. Heartbreaking, but it was neccessary.

[spo]

Yes, during my nursing career, many a time I thought it was so cruel to keep patients alive, often in pain. At least with our loved pets we can release them.

Hi Tails and All:
Exactly my sentiments on this. I have often seen humans suffer horribly and their families torn to bits emotionally. It would be much less cruel, if patients and families could choose Euthanasia. A quick IV infusion, and a person goes to sleep peacefully.

With the cat-kids of mine who were terminally ill, I intervened with Euthanasia, trying to act at the point that would prevent extreme suffering. It was heartbreaking, as you said Tails, but I would rather see my beloved cats die in peace than breathe their last in pain.

BTW, in only one instance, did I delay in acting when my beloved cat was terminally ill. She died at home while I was sleeping. It appeared that her last moments were difficult (I won't go into details, here--too painful). I am still filled with a lot of guilt over this, and I regret my weakness in not being able to "let go" sooner.
spo

[Geoff]

Hi Tails and All:
Exactly my sentiments on this. I have often seen humans suffer horribly and their families torn to bits emotionally. It would be much less cruel, if patients and families could choose Euthanasia. A quick IV infusion, and a person goes to sleep peacefully.

Legalising euthanasia is fraught with danger. Who decides if a person is to be euthanased? Relatives who benefit under a will? Doctors or hospital administrators who want to free up bed space? The patient themself? How many people who've woken up after an accident, with a serious spinal injury and, wanting to die, have gone on to lead long, happy and productive lives.
Anyone living in Brisbane will know Tony, a 40 plus year old man with cerebral palsy who sells lottery tickets from his wheelchair. He makes money for charity, is a great example of how one can overcome adversity and gives those of us who are more able, an opportunity to practice 'loving kindness'
Maybe he wouldn't be around if euthanasia had been allowed 40 odd years ago and I, for one, would have missed a chance to make friends with someone from whom I have a lot to learn (even though I can't understand half of what he says!)

[spo]

Oh, Geoff, sorry I gave you the wrong impression. I only meant that the choice for Euthanasia should be there for a patient to choose, or their family, if the situation is terminal. It is a big misconception that those types of conditions are defined broadly, in medico-legal terms. Someone like your friend, Tony, would never be in that category(now or 40yrs ago). Or even the hypothetical person who is quadriplegic is not terminal. Terminal is where death is imminent. Whenever, there is a question about whether death is the certain outcome, then the medico-legal injunction is to err on the side of life.

In any case, I want to point out that, since we don't have the courage to "out and out" allow euthanasia by an "act of commission"; it is done everyday, by patients or their families, with "acts of ommission" in the terminal cases to which I referred.
I am talking about the removal of feeding tubes, like in the Schiavo case, where the patient essentially dies a fairly cruel death from dehydration. Or even, the removal of ventilator tubes, where sometimes the suffocation can go on for hours. These types of events go on everyday in hospitals and nursing homes and they can be excruciating for the patients and the family.

Of course, we have gotten way off topic here.
spo

[littleTigercub]

I think every creature has the right to die with dignity and with no prolonged pain.

This should apply to animals and humans alike.

littleTigercub

[Mozbee]

I think every creature has the right to die with dignity and with no prolonged pain.

This should apply to animals and humans alike.

littleTigercub

I agree.

[Memma33]

This is a very good question. I have had a very sick pet (my labrador) who was suffering a great deal. He had a number of tumors and cancers and it was readily suggested by the vet that we have him put down - not even try to get the tumors out. I have wondered for years why is it that animals are given up on when humans are made to suffer and it is up to the medical profession to keep people alive no matter what (unless a statement is signed not allowing CPR or other methods of ressucitation)? I 'spose it's because we can be told the risks in plain english - many pets may not understand.....

[Hemlock]

2 out of three of my cats had to be put down. I didn't want to do it - I wanted them to stay alive and stay with me but I had to do it for them.
It was an act of unselfishness on my part, I would have paid any amount of money to keep Tom alive but it would have meant having a chest drain put in every 3 months and him being on 10 pills a day and I couldn't let them do that to him so I let him go.
Some of my human patients are in such a terrible state and suffering so badly I'd like to put them out of their misery there and then but of course that is not allowed and they have to go on in pain and suffering for months even years....why?
Lets hope when my time comes euthanasia is allowed.

[Marrers]

I also think animals adjust to their new situation and may not be 'suffering' (we imagine they are because we think about things as if we were them). I agree with the people who said it can take a hell of a lot of work, time, effort and money to keep a sick pet alive and comfortable until they are ready to die. I doubt many poeple go to the lengths I (or some others of us on here) would. Often it is about convenience. But I take my responsibilities to seriously ill or disabled pets as seriously as I would if my human family or friends were in the same position.

I do think you can ask them whether they are ready to die and whether they would like your help or would like to die in their own time. (There are quite a few references to this on the web but I couldn't find the one which introduced me to the idea several years ago.)

I have had two very sick rabbits who were ill for many months. With the first one I would often ask the vet whether I was being selfish putting so much effort into keeping him alive. I worried about this especially when his back legs became disabled and he was only able to pull himself around the floor by his front paws. The vet was brilliant and pointed out that he still had a spark in his eye and some quality of life. And that he wasn't grieving for the loss of mobility, he was just getting on with life in his new situation. (And it was a lot more work for me as he was unable to use the litter tray and lived indoors!) But when it was time for him to go I saw it instantly, the change in him was so stark that knew I had been right after all.
With the next rabbit I had read the article mentioned above and tried a bit of communication. I believe I did get a message from her to tell me it was the right time. (In actual fact that rabbit died in the waiting room before we went in for our appointment. I would always opt for a home visit now to save the stress of the journey.)

My cat became very ill quite quickly, she stopped eating and drinking and could not move. She appeared to be suffering but was still able to enjoy human and rabbit company and was still purring. Eventually we all agreed she seemed to have stopped responding to us and had no enjoyable times so I had to vets come to me at home. That was a hard one as she was quite distressed as soon as they arrived, as if she knew and wasn't ready to go which left me wondering if I'd made a mistake.

[Pisces]

I'm for voluntary euthanasia. I find it not only wasteful and an imposition on others' lives, but unfair when many humans are forced to be kept alive--by law--and endure being medicated, in constant pain, etc. I'm familiar with Jack Kevorkian and feel that he was wrong to be imprisoned because he ended patients' suffering (at their request).

The countries where euthanasia (for humans) is legal are Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden, and Switzerland.

Now for non-human animals, I would say that it's hard, but the best thing is to try your best to interpret how the animal is feeling. I would personally choose for one to be put to sleep peacefully if everything possible to help reduce its suffering, but that it would suffer no matter what. No being should be subjected to live in unwanted pain and agony in my opinion.

Though whenever a companion animal of mine has passed away, it has always been hard for me because they're family to me and I love them to pieces. However, I would much rather they--and any being for that matter--be put to sleep as peacefully as possible than to endure a life of pain and restriction.

Those are my thoughts.

[Yoggy]

PFC isn't on the forum anymore, but I wish I could reply to her comment that wheelchairs are a "mobile incarceration unit" . My boyfriend uses a wheelchair and he sees it as far more liberating than using crutches or canes to get around. He made the best out of his situation by winning the bronze at the Canada Games wheelchair race a few years ago

[Justin]

thanks for that Marrers, I really found what you wrote touching

[Yoggy]

Maybe human euthanasia is illegal most places because it's hard to ever know for sure that the patient was willing to die. I'm not saying this is true, but what if Jack Kevorkian actually killed his patients against their will, then just said that the patient asked for it? The patient isn't around anymore to set the record straight, so how would anyone ever know for sure that they wanted to die? (they could have been forced to sign the consent papers, etc).

I definitely agree with euthanasia, but I'm not aware of a foolproof way of guaranteeing that the person actually wants to die.

[Justin]

I think that it's accepted that there is not a foolproof way of 'guaranteeing that the person actually wants to die' and, furthermore, that euthanasia, if legalised, will be abused. However, and imo this is the heart of the issue, does it present us with a lesser evil? Perhaps the greater evil is to do nothing?

[dreama]

Bellatrix, my rat had to be killed today. I felt a real monster having to do it, but the vet thought it was neccessary in her condition. She said her eyes had gone dull. I hope I did the right thing. Bellatrix was almost totally paralised. She couldn't even lift her head up so she had to be syringe fed. When I asked her if she wanted to die she seemed undecided. "no...yes...no...yes..." so even the telepathic communication I have with some of my animal friends didn't seem to have been much use. I hope I did the right thing by letting the vet Uthanise her.

[RedWellies]

Sorry to hear that, Dreama. I'm sure you made the right decision. It is so hard though, I know.

[Marrers]

Dull eyes is one of the indisputable signs in my experience.

[Gorilla]

sorry to hear about your rat dreama. it sounds like you did the right thing.

[emamaly]

I had a really rough last weekend. My cat Tabby was getting very old. In fact, me and Tabby had been together since I was 2.. i.e. I dont really remember a day in my life when there wasnt Tabby. Well.. except for the last week :/ anyways. He wasnt doing so good, and this is after injecting him with subcutaneous fluids ~ 5 times a week and feeding him a low protein diet for years due to his kidney failure. (be aware I am trying to convince myself I did the right thing).. anyways, he was slowly losing his ability to walk.. wouldnt walk down the stairs anymore.. sadly, he was just a bit depressing to be around. I still loved him to bits, but it was more like.. ohhh... tabby.. every time I petted him. I miss him so much. After the euthanasia I just wanted him back so bad.. I needed someone to comfort me and all I wanted was for Tabby to comfort me. I feel a bit ridiculous because I know people go through so much hurt in their life but I find it terribly sad to know he is gone forever. Anyways.. I was prompted to do it because I felt his stomach and it felt like a huge ball of fluid and I was afriad his intestines had turned into mush and that he was going to fall over in pain . I was afraid to touch him. He hissed at me for touching him.. which he hadnt actually done ever before. Anyways, I just got really scared in the moment and decided to have him euthanised. Ultimately, I know I did this for myself. I was so scared to see him in real pain. But ultimately.. I think I made the right decision and dying and death is not pretty by any accounts. Maybe some cases there is the whole beautiful dying in your sleep thing, but from what I have seen of old age it can be very ugly. Anyways, Im happy that my last memories of him will be when he was v. old.. but not a heaving creature on the floor. It seems like the last days somehow stick in your memory the longest.. and I have to feel okay for what I did. Choosing to euthanise clearly can come out of love, because I loved that cat .. well, so much. I don't know what is right and wrong but whats done is done.

[harpy]

Very sorry about Tabby, emamaly, but he had reached the end of the line by the sound of it so you didn't have much real choice.

We had our old boy put to sleep in similar circumstances (long-term kidney failure + various other complications) - we had spent a fortune on vets up until then, as I'm sure you have, but it just doesn't seem kind to try and bring them back from the brink when their quality of life has become generally poor.

Yours did very well if he was 20 or so.

[dreama]

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. I think Euthanasia must be the hardest part of animal guardianship. I've recently had to Euthanise my rat Bellatrix. I still feel terrible about having to do it. Sometimes it is the lesser of 2 evils but it never does feel right to me, even then.

[emamaly]

I'm really sorry to hear about your loss. I think Euthanasia must be the hardest part of animal guardianship. I've recently had to Euthanise my rat Bellatrix. I still feel terrible about having to do it. Sometimes it is the lesser of 2 evils but it never does feel right to me, even then.

dreama and harpy,

I know.. there is always that.. well .. he could still be here right now if I hadn't of done it.. type feeling.

When I was younger Tabby's sister was put to sleep due to skin cancer that just wasn't healing after 2 operations. My mother had to go to the vet, etc. This time it was me that made the decision and Tabby died in my arms. My mom says its much harder when you have to do it yourself and she is actually relieved that I made the decision. She didn't want to feel guilty for making the choice. At least I saved my mother some grief.

Yes, I believe kidney failure is common in cats (was yours a cat too harpy?). Tabby lost sooo much weight because of his low protein diet and basically anyone who came over thought we were starving our cat. He literally was a bag of bones. And yep, he was 1 month shy of being 20 years old. I think thats close enough to say he was 20.. that reminds me, I was going to look up "world's oldest cats" on the internet..

[RedWellies]

It is the hardest decision to take. But I'm sure you did the right thing, Emamaly. Of course you miss Tabby, so don't feel that you shouldn't just because some people might be having a hard time. Time is the only thing that helps I find. Try to remember the good times and that might help. Allow yourself to grieve though.

[harpy]

Yes, Tom was a cat too, though at 18 not quite as venerable as your Tabby. Still, he did quite well considering he had a few other problems.

I know what you mean about thinking they could still be here, but that would really be for one's own benefit rather than the cat's, I think. It's good you were able to see to the arrangements yourself, I'm sure they prefer that. Wish someone would do the same for me when my time comes

[xwitchymagicx]

In extreme circumstances...I think it should be legal for humans too.