Organic – or not?

[soilman]

In my opinion we need to have vegan commercial production.Organic farming harms more animals than modern "science-informed" farming. Animal feces in food also adds off-flavors; bacterial metabilic products are absorbed by the plants, through their roots. And it, and animal body parts, also causes disease. See Jared Diamond's books. Many of our diseases are the result of living in close proximity to animals. Including anthrax and tetanus. The micro-organisms that grow on plants are unlikely to find a good habitat on people; the micro-organisms that grow in animals, are more likely to.

There are advantages and disadvantages to using cows' gastro-intestinal systems in place of plain wooden compost bins. But as animal agriculture becomes a thing of the past, so will the ready availablity of animal excrement. I believe we should be preparing ahead, now, for this future that we all hope will happen, by using sustainable vegan agriculture instead of modern commercial, or organic.

[Korn]

I saw an interview with Terje Håkonsen (snowboarder) recently. He's about to start an organic cafe, and the reporter talked with him about the definition of organic. Håkonsen's reply was that organic food is 'normal' food, in the sense that it is food in it's normal, natural state, not processed by anything artificial. I believe many people think of organic food as 'special' food, and forget that human food has been organic for thousands of years...

[RedWellies]

Very true.

[VanillaBean]

I completely agree. Last week I decided that the expense of organic fruit and vegetables is not a good enough reason to avoid them! My savings will go down in the short term but I believe that you can't put a price on your health! The big shame is that it is really hard to get much variety - I thought it would be more readily available in Sydney, so I am probably only about 70% organic now for nutrient reasons.

[fiamma]

I believe many people think of organic food as 'special' food, and forget that human food has been organic for thousands of years...

But until the prices come down, I'm unable to see it as "normal" food. Veggies are pricey enough here as it is. I don't buy organic for that simple reason.

[soilman]

Organic produce is not covered in a cocktail of poisonous chemicals. The average conventionally-grown apple has 20-30 artificial poisons on its skin, even after rinsing. Trust your instincts, and go organic!

Not all non-organic produce is extensively treated with chemicals either. Some farmers use pesticides and commercial plant food sparingly.

Fresh organic produce contains on average 50% more vitamins, minerals, enzymes and other micro-nutrients than intensively farmed produce. Science says that it's good for you.

Fresh produce grown with good farming methods that are not necessarily strictly organic, also contain more micronutrients and more flavor than produce grown with poor methods.

Going organic is the only practical way to avoid eating genetically modified (GM) food. And by buying organic food, you are registering your mistrust of GMO's and doing your bit to protest against them.

Huh? It is quite possible to get food that is neither organically grown nor genetically engineered. I think this "protest" you are talking about is going to fall on deaf ears.

If you eat dairy or meat products, going organic has never been more essential to safeguard you and your family's health. Intensively-reared dairy cows and farm animals are fed a dangerous cocktail of anti-biotics, hormones, anti-parasite drugs and many other medicines on a daily basis, whether they have an illness or not. These drugs are passed directly onto the consumers of their dairy produce or meat., which must be a contributing factor to meat-related diseases like coronaries and high blood pressure.

Non-organic is not necessarily the same as intensively reared or factory farmed.

About 99% of non-organic farm animals in the UK are now fed GM soya. And there has never been a reported case of BSE in organic cattle in the UK. Common sense says that organic is safe food.

There is always a danger from food if plants or animals are surrounded by a sea of excrement, as if usually the case with organically grown plants and animals.

Organic produce simply tastes so much better. Fruit and vegetables full of juice and flavour, and so many different varieties to try! There are about 100 different kinds of organic potatoes in production in the UK, and that's just potatoes!

so do properly grown plants that are not strictly organic.

Organic farms support and nurture our beautiful and diverse wildlife. Over the last thirty years, intensive farming in the UK has led to dramatic erosion of the soil, a fall of up to 70% of wild birds in some areas, the destruction of ancient hedgerows, and the near extinction of some of the most beautiful species of butterflies, frogs, grass-snakes and wild mammals.

This is simply not true. Organic growers have been known to shoot predators and wild animals that become pests that eat agricultural plants. Use of excrement in soil has the same affect of eutrophication of rivers and streams as does use of industrially produced nitrogen plant food.

Organic food is not really more expensive than intensively farmed foods, as we pay for conventional foods through our taxes. We spend billion of pounds every year cleaning up the mess that agro-chemicals make to our natural water supply. And the BSE crisis cost us 4 billion pounds. Go organic for a genuine more cost-effective future.

Huh?

Intensive farming can seriously damage farm workers' health. There are much higher instances of cancer, respiratory problems and other major diseases in farm workers from non-organic farms. This is particularly true in developing countries, and for agrochemical farms growing cotton. So go organic if you care about other people.

It is not true in all cases.

And if you simply like the idea of your children and grandchildren being able to visit the countryside and play in the forests and fields just like we did when we were young, go organic for the sake of all of our futures.

There is nothing to prevent organic growers from clear-cutting forests to plant organic crops.

It is essential that we end the cycle of plant production that depends on animal waste, and animal production that depends on plant agriculture. We must divorce plant agriculture from animal agriculture. Organic plant husbandry is more closely tied to this cycle, and to animal husbandry, than either ordinary commercial farming or vegan farming.

[bryony]

it was in the news a few days ago (in the UK) that anything with an up too 1% GM percentage can now be sold as organic D:

[frank language]

I completely agree. Last week I decided that the expense of organic fruit and vegetables is not a good enough reason to avoid them! My savings will go down in the short term but I believe that you can't put a price on your health! The big shame is that it is really hard to get much variety - I thought it would be more readily available in Sydney, so I am probably only about 70% organic now for nutrient reasons.

I am not rich (in fact, I'm even classified as poor), but I buy organic whenever I can; I think it's false economy to buy "conventional" (the label Whole Foods puts on sprayed produce.)

Considering that you're putting nerve toxins in your system with every pesticide-laden apple you eat, it's best to minimize this wherever you can. The tricky thing is that I'd far prefer to eat minimally-sprayed local apples--and wash them with Fruit and Vegetable Wash--than buy organic apples from South America.

[Korn]

I believe this study has been cited in some other thread on our forum, but here it is again:
Organic food is healthier: study

Early results from a £12m study showed that organic fruit and vegetables contained up to 40% more antioxidants than non-organic varieties, according to Professor Carlo Leifert at Newcastle University, who leads the EU-funded Quality Low Input Food project.

[Dori]

Yeah, it's never bothered me, either. But, you know how people are when they buy their produce- if it's not 100% perfect, they don't buy it. Too many people are too far removed from nature that they expect perfection in everything. I have had people tell me I was "insane" for keeping my veggie and fruit scraps from lunch to take home for our compost. They just have no idea how to reuse our resources.

Enjoying the posts on organic food and gardening. This particular post reminded me of the wonderful compost pile we had two years ago and the very healthy garden last year only to find out that rats were invading the compost and had set up residence under our house. We were horrified and stopped the composting. I hate to think what our garden will be like this year. Has anyone else had similar problems and what did you do?

[harpy]

There was a mouse in our compost once but I've never seen a rat in it, even though my cat tells me that there are rats around the place.

This http://www.recyclenow.com/home_compo...mpost_bin.html has some tips for making the compost inhospitable to rats - don't know if it's any use.

[ellaminnowpea]

I <3 organic food! Bananas are the biggest difference for me, I cannot eat non organic (taste like chemicals) bananas anymore. And organic berries are a lot better than non organic! I think having organic greens is really important, too!

[Risker]

Organic Food Myths

Skeptoid #19
January 05, 2007
Podcast transcript | Listen | Subscribe


Today we're going to put on our tie dyed shirt, grow our hair long and dirty, claim hatred for science and corporate America, then walk into the most expensive specialty supermarket in town and purchase one of the most overpriced products on the market today: Organic food.

Organic food is a conventional food crop (genetically exactly the same plant variety as the regular version) but grown according to a different set of standards. In this sense, organic food is really the same thing as kosher food. The food itself is identical, but it's prepared in such a way to conform to different philosophical standards. Just as kosher standards are defined by rabbinical authorities, the USDA's National Organic Program sets the requirements for foods to bear a "certified organic" label. Basically it forbids the use of modern synthetic fertilizers and pesticides in favor of organic equivalents, and for animals it requires that they have not been kept healthy through the use of antibiotics. There are other rules too, and the basic goal is to require the use of only natural products throughout the growth, preparation, and preservation stages.

Organic food is more expensive than conventional food, due not only to its lower crop yields and more expensive organic fertilizers and pesticides in larger quantities, but mainly because it's such a big fad right now and is in such high demand.

Why is that? Is organic food healthier? Does it make an important political statement? The usual arguments boil down to three: that it benefits small farmers rather than big evil companies; that it's somehow healthier to eat; and that the cultivation method is better for the environment. Rather than accepting these emotionally satisfying benefits at face value, let's instead take a skeptical look and see what the data actually show. Let's take these three claimed benefits one at a time.

Buying organic food benefits small farmers, and represents a blow to the big food corporations.

All right, let's take for granted the position that major food producers deserve to be struck with a blow. I'm sure the starving millions in Africa appreciate the sentiment.

Make no mistake, organic food is big, big business. The days when the organic produce section of the supermarket represented the product of a small local farmer are long gone. California alone produces over $600 million in organic produce, most of it coming from just five farms, who are also the same producers of most non-organic food in the state. 70 percent of all organic milk is controlled by just one major milk producer.

Five or ten years ago, when the major food producers saw that organic food was coming into vogue, what do you think they did? They smelled higher prices charged for less product, and started producing organic crops. Nearly all organic crops in the United States are either grown, distributed, or sold by exactly the same companies who produce conventional crops. They don't care which one you buy. You're not striking a blow at anyone, except at your own pocketbook.

Trader Joe's is a supermarket chain specializing in organic, vegetarian, and alternative foods with hundreds of locations throughout the United States, centered in organic-happy Southern California. Shoppers appreciate its image of healthful food in a small-business family atmosphere. Really? In 2005 alone, Trader Joe's racked up sales estimated at $4.5 billion. The company is owned by a family trust set up by German billionaire Theo Albrecht, ranked the 22nd richest man in the world by Forbes in 2004. He's the co-founder and CEO of German multi-national ALDI, with global revenue in grocery sales at $37 billion. According to Business Week, the decade of the 1990's saw Trader Joe's increase its profits by 1000%. Trader Joe's also compensates its employees aggressively, with starting salaries for supervisors at $40,000. They hire only non-union workers. Now, to any capitalist or business-minded person, there's nothing wrong with any of that (unless you're pro-union or anti-big business). It's a great company, and very successful. Trader Joe's customers are willing to pay their premium prices to get that healthful image. But they should not kid themselves that they're striking a blow at big business and supporting the little guy.

I'm not exactly sure why anticorporatism wound up on the organic food agenda, since it's so counterintuitive. The irony is that the organic food companies supply a smaller amount of food per acre planted, and enjoy dramatically higher profits, which is why anticorporatists hate corporations in the first place.

For more information about organic food as big business, go to consumerfreedom.com and do a search for organic foods.

Organic foods are healthier to eat.

Did you ever wonder why Chinese drink only hot tea? They boil it to kill the bacteria. Most local Chinese farming uses organic methods, in that the only fertilizers used are human and animal waste: Without being boiled, it's basically a nice cup of E. coli. In the case of China and other poor Asian nations, the reason for organic farming has less to do with ideology and more to do with lack of access to modern farming technology.

The National Review reports that Americans believe organic food is healthier by a 2-1 margin, despite the lack of any evidence supporting this. When you take the exact same strain of a plant and grow it in two different ways, its chemical and genetic makeup remain the same. One may be larger than the other if one growing method was more efficient, but its fundamental makeup and biochemical content is defined by its genes, not by the way it was grown. Consumer Reports found no consistent difference in appearance, flavor, or texture. A blanket statement like "organic cultivation results in a crop with superior nutritional value" has no logical or factual basis.

Some supporters of organic growing claim that the danger of non-organic food lies in the residues of chemical pesticides. This claim is even more ridiculous: Since the organic pesticides and fungicides are less efficient than their modern synthetic counterparts, up to seven times as much of it must be used. Organic pesticides include rotenone, which has been shown to cause the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and is a natural poison used in hunting by some native tribes; pyrethrum, which is carcinogenic; sabadilla, which is highly toxic to honeybees; and fermented urine, which I don't want on my food whether it causes any diseases or not. Supporters of organics claim that the much larger amounts of chemicals they use is OK because those chemicals are all-natural. But just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's safe or healthy — consider the examples of hemlock, mercury, lead, toadstools, box jellyfish neurotoxin, asbestos — not to mention a nearly infinite number of toxic bacteria and viruses (E. coli, salmonella, bubonic plague, smallpox). When you hear any product claim to be healthy because its ingredients are all natural, be skeptical. By no definition can "all natural" mean that a product is healthful.

Consider the logical absurdity proposed by those who claim conventional growers produce less healthful food. To the organically minded, conventional growers are evil greedy corporations interested only in their profit margin. What's the best way to improve the profit margin? To buy less pesticides and fertilizer. This means they must use far more advanced and efficient products. The idea that pesticides leave dangerous residues is many decades out of date. Food production is among the most regulated and scrutinized of processes, and today's synthetic pesticides and fertilizers are completely biodegradable. They're supported by decades of studies that demonstrate their total safety.

In the United States, 2006 brought two major outbreaks of E. coli, both resulting in deaths and numerous illnesses, ultimately traced to organically grown spinach and lettuce. According to the Center for Global Food Issues, organic foods make up about 1% of all the food sold in the United States, but it accounts for 8% of E. coli cases.

Organic growing methods are better for the environment.

Organic methods require about twice the acreage to produce the same crop, thus directly resulting in the destruction of undeveloped land. During a recent Girl Scout field trip to Tanaka Farms in Irvine, California, one of the owners told us his dirty little secret that contradicts what you'll find on his web site. Market conditions compelled them to switch to organic a few years ago, and he absolutely hates it. The per-acre yield has been slashed. Organic farming produces less food, and requires more acreage.

Many so-called environmentalists generally favor organic farming, at the same time that they protest deforestation to make room for more agriculture. How do they reconcile these directly conflicting views? If you want to feed a growing population, you cannot do both, and soon won't be able to do either. If you support rainforest preservation, logically you should oppose organic farming, particularly in the developing world. On the other hand, if you demand organic soybeans, then you should have the courage to stand up and say that you don't care whether black and brown people around the world have enough to eat or not.

I'm not making this stuff up. For every dreadlocked white kid beating a bongo drum in favor of organics, there is a Ph.D. agriculturist warning about its short sightedness and urging efficient modern agriculture to feed our growing population. Personally I like forests and natural areas, so I favor using the farmlands that we already have as efficiently as possible. This benefits everyone. I say we dump the useless paranormal objections to foods freighted with evil corporate hate energy, and instead use our brains to our advantage for once. When we find a better way to grow the same crop faster, stronger, healthier, and on less acreage, let's do it. We all benefit.

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4019

[snivelingchild]

organic growing methods short-sighted? hah

[Risker]

organic growing methods short-sighted? hah

Why do you say that? I assume you don't agree with it?

[Korn]

Why do you say that?

Maybe because a main argument against non-organic farming is that the intense use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides etc. often is considered exactly that: short-sighted?

[veganbikerboy]

I agree with the article in someways, there are several other things you can apply to the argument too - Organic growing generally uses alot of animal bi-products (not very vegan!), they are often excessively packed and the 'food miles' are usually at least on a par with conventional 'veg'.

I am not saying organic is bad, it is just not as good as most people make out! There are obviously many good reasons for organic.

Organic does taste better IMO. Ideally home grow vegan-organic, if thats not possible I would buy locally grown unpackaged food as preference (for least environmental impact). I am lucky as I have a few local organic farms where I can buy veg, one of which uses very few animal bi-products.

[gogs67]

He seems to miss the point out that enough food is produced to feed the world twice over, it's the distribution that's at fault, not the fact that organic food production takes up twice the acreage for the same yield! ( a fact that cam be easily disputed actually if University of Michegan's lates studies are anything to go by. http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/relea...ry.php?id=5936 )

[Johnstuff]

I get (most of) my Veg from a local organic farm. It is more expensive but I belive it is worth it as it's less damaging to the environment and provides local sustainable employment.

As far as I know the farm doesn't have animals - they do sell freerange eggs but thay don't produce them themselves (and of course I don't buy them).

[Risker]

Maybe because a main argument against non-organic farming is that the intense use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides etc. often is considered exactly that: short-sighted?

The use of fertilisers in non-organic farming is by far less intense than the use of fertilisers in organic farming. Just because the fertilisers are 'synthetic' doesn't automatically make them worse. Organic fertilisers can do huge amounts of damage to the environment and as alot more of them are used the potential for environmental and ecological damage is alot worse.

From a vegan perspective (as soilman mentioned earlier in the thread) you also have to remember that alot of the fertilisers used in organic production come from animal waste - a by product of the meat and dairy industries. I personally would rather sever the connection between my food and those industries.

[harpy]

Conventional farming uses manure too though http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/environ...ertilisers.htm I think for manure-free veg you'd have to find veganically-grown stuff (or grow it yourself).

At least with organic farming they try to use organic manure (i.e. slightly better husbandry standards) but they don't always succeed unfortunately http://www.soilassociation.org/Web/S...b!OpenDocument

[Risker]

^ But with non organic far less manure is used, I'd rather less was used than it come from "happy" dead animals.

[harpy]

There again, conventional farming damages animals in other ways, e.g. habitat destruction

ETA This study is quite interesting http://www.nature.com/nature/journal.../410926a0.html although it's just one study

[Risker]

With the lower crop yields of organic production more land is needed... hence more habitat destruction.

[harpy]

Yes, it does take more land, but that may be offset to some extent by the fact that organically farmed land itself may provide a better habitat for wildlife than conventionally farmed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4740609.stm

Also AIUI the effects of conventional pesticides may extend beyond the boundaries of the land under cultivation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle565216.ece

I agree the picture isn't at all clear and I suspect that best practice in conventional farming probably has less environmental impact than "worst practice" in organic farming. Also there is quite a lot of overlap in what the two groups do (some farmers adopt many organic techniques but don't go for organic certification for economic reasons, apparently).

It might make more sense to rate farms on a list of "sustainability" criteria rather than continue the current binary organic/not-organic system.

[gogs67]

With the lower crop yields of organic production more land is needed... hence more habitat destruction.

What did you make of that University of Michigan article?

[Risker]

The thing about that article is it's comparing what they call 'low-intensive methods' to organic farming and only in developing countries.

It is explained further down in the article why;

While that seems counterintuitive, it makes sense because in developing countries, many farmers still do not have the access to the expensive fertilizers and pesticides that farmers use in developed countries to produce those high yields, she said.

So it's not really the same as comparing organic to non organic in 'developed' countries where fertilisers and pesticides are readily available.

Even if production from organic could/can match that of non organic it still requires manure which requires large amounts of grazing land for animals to produce it.

[gogs67]

The thing about that article is it's comparing what they call 'low-intensive methods' to organic farming and only in developing countries.

It is explained further down in the article why;



So it's not really the same as comparing organic to non organic in 'developed' countries where fertilisers and pesticides are readily available.

Even if production from organic could/can match that of non organic it still requires manure which requires large amounts of grazing land for animals to produce it.

Manure is mainly produced indoors actually,where cattle are kept and eat sleep and shit in large sheds. I'd hate to be the guy that goes around collecting it from an open field, lol!

[Mahk]

For more information about organic food as big business, go to consumerfreedom.com and do a search for organic foods.

I'm staying out of this thread's general debate because it would take days of research on my part to form an opinion which I don't have time for and I don't currently consider myself well versed on the topic, but I did want to point out that "www.consumerfreedom.com" is the multi-million dollar propaganda mill of a hired gun lobbyist named Rick Berman. He has no scientific credentials but for enough money he will launch web based smear campaigns against anyone he is hired to do so against. Prior clients have included the tobacco, alcohol, anti-union, pro-trans fat fast food, anti-animal rights, and salt industries.

Watch this CBSNEWS news video exposee to learn what "Dr. Evil" is all about.

His modus operandi is to say the things his clients can't say in public. If Philip Morris, for example, launched websites under their own name saying, "Second hand smoke is safe and should be of no concern" it could easily come back to haunt them. By hiring Rick Berman to do the same, however, they still get the message out there yet have no traceable culpability.

Although I don't normally condone the use of ad hominem arguments (attacking the credentials of one's opponent), I do think pointing out what this man does as a profession is warranted in this instance.

[gogs67]

I'm staying out of this thread's general debate because it would take days of research on my part to form an opinion which I don't have time for and I don't currently consider myself well versed in the topic, but I did want to point out that "www.consumerfreedom.com" is the multi-million dollar propaganda mill of a hired gun lobbyist named Rick Berman. He has no scientific credentials but for enough money he will launch web based smear campaigns against anyone he is hired to do so against. Prior clients have included the tobacco, alcohol, anti-union, pro-trans fat fast food, anti-animal rights, and salt industries.

Watch this CBSNEWS news video exposee to learn what "Dr. Evil" all about.

His modus operandi is to say the things his clients can't say in public. If Philip Morris, for example, launched websites under their own name saying, "Second hand smoke is safe and should be of no concern" it could easily come back to haunt them. By hiring Rick Berman to do the same, however, they still get the message out there yet have no traceable culpability.

Although I don't normally condone the use of ad hominem arguments (attacking the credentials of one's opponent), I do think pointing out what this man does as a profession is warranted in this instance.

I noticed reading through some of the older articles there seemed to be a corporated 'bias'!
The links on the front page were interesting as well!!
ActivistCash.comAnimalScam.comCSPIScam.comMercuryFacts.orgPetaKillsAnimals.comPhysicianScam.comTrans-FatFacts.com

[cobweb]

Personally i do feel confused with the organic debate - i read somewhere recently that organic farmers can still spray produce which i had naiively thought they didn't.

l honestly feel that the only real ethical way to grow food is on a small, local basis, either backyard growing or small co-ops.

[Mahk]

I noticed reading through some of the older articles there seemed to be a corporated 'bias'!
The links on the front page were interesting as well!!

It's important to note that none of these "groups" amount to anything other than websites set up by Rick Berman who is paid millions of dollars to do so. It all started with the tobacco company Philip Morris in 1995. Within three years they had paid him and his small staff (currently about 28 people but back then just a handful) 3 million dollars. Once this business model was proven effective, all the other companies promoting unhealthy products wanted in on the action. There's nothing "consumer freedom" about his lies. He is anti-consumer, pro-big business, and pro-deception.

More info:

http://www.consumerdeception.com/

PCRM

It's hard to imagine how this guy sleeps at night.

[harpy]

honestly feel that the only real ethical way to grow food is on a small, local basis, either backyard growing or small co-ops.

I still prefer organic because I think that the growers, or the people who monitor the growers, are at least trying to minimise damage to the environment, though they may not be the only ones.

Not so sure about supermarket organic stuff but the fruit and veg we get delivered are supposed to be bought from a co-op and come from smaller-scale growers http://www.woodfieldorganics.com/AboutUs.aspx

I have next to no interest in growing food myself so would rather pay someone else to do it but ideally it would be where I could keep an eye on them, and would be veganic.

[cobweb]

ah, now that is another point, Harpy, when i say 'organic' i am ONLY thinking of supermarket organic, as that is the only way i can buy stuff that is labelled/certified organic, unfortunately.
Had i the option to buy from a local veggie box scheme then i definitely would.

[gogs67]

It's hard to imagine how this guy sleeps at night.

Sadly, i would imagine he sleeps better than most of us!

[Metal Maniac]

From http://www.organicfood.co.uk/topten.html

Thanxs for the post Korn!

[soilman]

There are good farming methods and bad farming methods, and good farming methods result in vegetables with more micronutrients, different macronutrient profiles, and better flavor, than bad farming methods. The secret to good farming is two-fold: 1. have soil with a good tilth that enables plants to do a better job of absorbing nutrients from the soil, via their roots and 2. make sure your soil has adequate amounts of the macronutrient and micronutrients that your plants need.

If these nutrients are in soil with a poor tilth, they will not be as readily absorbed by the plants. So both are important.

Conventional farmers, who use industrially-produced plant foods, and industrially produced pesticides, can indeed meet these requirements for good soil. But it is often cheaper and easier not to. Organic farmers are more likely to have soil with a good tilth, but just following the legal requirements for organically grown is not enough. So I would tend to judge produce by the soil tilth and nutrient profile rather than by whether it is organically grown or not. Either method can produce worser or better food. Personally, I consider organic growing to be a belief system with no scientific backing. That doesn't mean that things can't work out well, it just means it is the result of tradition rather than science. And tradition has some value. But I prefer my tradition to be backed by science. I like to use traditional methods that have been proven by science to have value - such as using lots of compost, cover crops and green manures. There is no harm in using industrially produced nutrients in addition to using these traditional cientifically proven methods. however if you use industrially produced nutrients instead of compost, green manures, and cover crops, as many farmers do, to reduce costs, you are going to have plants with less micronutrients (I'm talking about nutrient usable by humans here, in this sentence, not the micro and macronutrient that plants need, which overlap those that humans need), a differnet macronutrient profile, and poorer taste. Not all organic farmers use enough compost covercrops and green manures either but still get certified organic, simply becuae they have not used industrially-produced nutrients.

It is like sugar for humans. If you substitute sugar for fruit, you will not grow or function as well. If you eat enough fruit, supplementing that with white sugar in small amounts, is not going to harm you. Same goes for plants. If they have enough of the one and two I mentioned, supplementing that with industrially produce nutrients will not only not harm them, but it could, in many circumstances, enable larger yields, even if 1 and 2 are ideal.

And by the way it is certainly untrue that a plants chemical makeup depends only on its genetics and is unrelated to how it is grown. Like all living things, both genetics, and environment, influence how they grow, and how they are. The effect of envirnoment on plant growth can be quite dramatic. Agricultivation results in plants that are much larger and differently developed than the genetically identical plants that grow naturally. Humans have learned how to greatly increase the nutrition available to plants, as compared to what they can find naturally, in natural soil. A wild mustard plant, for example, will grow about 10 times as large when its seeds are collected and are planted in agricultural soil, as it will in the wild.

[songlife]

Although I really resent the article's approach of prejudice when it comes to people who wear tie-dye shirts and have dreadlocks, and how it seems to make fun of us "free-spirits" as hypocritical uneducated peace-mongers, I can't help but agree with the following paragraph:

....

Some supporters of organic growing claim that the danger of non-organic food lies in the residues of chemical pesticides. This claim is even more ridiculous: Since the organic pesticides and fungicides are less efficient than their modern synthetic counterparts, up to seven times as much of it must be used. Organic pesticides include rotenone, which has been shown to cause the symptoms of Parkinson's Disease and is a natural poison used in hunting by some native tribes; pyrethrum, which is carcinogenic; sabadilla, which is highly toxic to honeybees; and fermented urine, which I don't want on my food whether it causes any diseases or not. Supporters of organics claim that the much larger amounts of chemicals they use is OK because those chemicals are all-natural. But just because something is natural doesn't mean that it's safe or healthy — consider the examples of hemlock, mercury, lead, toadstools, box jellyfish neurotoxin, asbestos — not to mention a nearly infinite number of toxic bacteria and viruses (E. coli, salmonella, bubonic plague, smallpox). When you hear any product claim to be healthy because its ingredients are all natural, be skeptical. By no definition can "all natural" mean that a product is healthful.

It's like when people go on about magic mushrooms being "natural" and therefore perfectly healthy for human consumption. They're still a poison, regardless of whether they are found in nature or not.

I have been getting most of my produce from a local organic farm that distributes out of a college student-run anti-capitalist primarily vegan food co-op. The cost of this organic local produce is actually much cheaper than non-organic produce elsewhere. You can even go work on the farm on weekends during the warmer seasons if you like. I think I will take myself on a field trip there next year for a weekend to observe exactly how my food is grown, and to see what natural pesticides and fungicides are used and compare it with non-organic local farms. From there, I can make my decision on whether to stay organic or not.

I also don't like the idea about more manure being used to produce organic.

I think it's important to point out that the article seems to be one of those facetious attempts to get people to feel like their environmental/vegan efforts are hopeless, that we can't completely eliminate our footprint, so we "may as well not do anything at all". We just have to not let them do that to us, and KEEP DOING AS MUCH AS WE CAN, regardless that we can't be PERFECT.

[songlife]

It is essential that we end the cycle of plant production that depends on animal waste, and animal production that depends on plant agriculture. We must divorce plant agriculture from animal agriculture. Organic plant husbandry is more closely tied to this cycle, and to animal husbandry, than either ordinary commercial farming or vegan farming.

Amen.

[songlife]

Rick berman.

wow.

[cobweb]

i recently read that potatoes produce more toxins (to repel pets and disease) if they are not treated chemically, and therefore are 'worse' for you than organic potatoes (which i had previously read are full of chemicals and therefore 'bad' for me! *sigh*).

I'm currently preparing a space in the garden for some seed potatoes.

[Quantum Mechanic]

Although I really resent the article's approach of prejudice when it comes to people who wear tie-dye shirts and have dreadlocks, and how it seems to make fun of us "free-spirits" as hypocritical uneducated peace-mongers, I can't help but agree with the following paragraph:



It's like when people go on about magic mushrooms being "natural" and therefore perfectly healthy for human consumption. They're still a poison, regardless of whether they are found in nature or not.

I have been getting most of my produce from a local organic farm that distributes out of a college student-run anti-capitalist primarily vegan food co-op. The cost of this organic local produce is actually much cheaper than non-organic produce elsewhere. You can even go work on the farm on weekends during the warmer seasons if you like. I think I will take myself on a field trip there next year for a weekend to observe exactly how my food is grown, and to see what natural pesticides and fungicides are used and compare it with non-organic local farms. From there, I can make my decision on whether to stay organic or not.

I also don't like the idea about more manure being used to produce organic.

I think it's important to point out that the article seems to be one of those facetious attempts to get people to feel like their environmental/vegan efforts are hopeless, that we can't completely eliminate our footprint, so we "may as well not do anything at all". We just have to not let them do that to us, and KEEP DOING AS MUCH AS WE CAN, regardless that we can't be PERFECT.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this sentiment. I would have to do more research about organic versus non-organic, but some of the conclusions in the article seemed logical, and I would tend to agree with them.

[Verencemos]

We get our veg delivered weekly from an organic but not veganic farm - they control slugs by getting chickens to roam on the soil first eating them all up, then they sow the plants and the chickens move to the next patch. They don't kill the boy chicks, but the fully grown birds are all killed and sold, mostly at Christmas time. They also sell the eggs. I imagine the chicken poo will eventually fertilise the soil, but its pretty toxic stuff raw I think.
Its considerably cheaper than buying organic veg at the supermarket - compares favourably with buying ordinary veg there. But it does get dull, esp at this time of year. They use as little imported food as possible, but they do bring in bananas, mangoes, avocados and oranges. Everything else is seasonal and locally grown. So at the moment, our only fruits are apples, bananas and oranges with the occ mango. But in summer its luscious - loads of local berries and plums (we come from an area famous for its plums). They grow all sorts of interesting veg, but there is hardly any at the moment - basically kale, potatoes, cabbages, carrots and onions
Its not a perfect system, but its the best we've got locally. The only way to do vegan organic here would be to do it ourselves. I have tried the last couple of years, but the slugs eat everything that the the blight doesn't get. I'm told to be patient because one year it may not rain continuously. I just gave up half way through last year and stopped even looking at the garden. Someone said earlier that gardening organically was no harder. Its much harder for me.

I was interested in the comment by soil man that conventional food grown well can be as nutritious as organic food especially if it's grown badly. The problem is that conventional farmers can't grow food well and remain in business without some way to mark their product as premium (which is one effect of organic labelling). My dad is a conventional but very small scale farmer (livestock sadly) who doesn't farm intensively and his farm is struggling because he can't compete with his herd of 20 named cows and a few pigs, sheep, chickens against agribusiness.

I think the answer is ideally local vegan organic, but since that must be impossible for the majority of people, and is not going to be the answer to all our food needs, unless our diet gets very limited. I'm never going to be able to grow wheat in my garden, and despite the wet summers, its not steep enough for me to terrace for rice

[Risker]

I was interested in the comment by soil man that conventional food grown well can be as nutritious as organic food especially if it's grown badly.

And organic food grown well can be as nutritious as conventional food especially if grown badly.

[Verencemos]

didn't put that well. luckily you knew what I meant

[Topcat]

Theres a lot to read here and personally i don't think there is a perfect solution to this, it's a fucked up world. Organic is not vegan they use blood and bonemeal yuk, manure is an iffy one some say ok others not. Non organic uses pesticides etc bad for us bad for the environment.
so i'm growing my own thats my solution i wont be able to feed the whole family but i should be able to grow most of my salad veg to keep us going. So my patio this year with have pots of carrots on instead of geraniums, and that old dustbin, well !potatoes, as for the hanging baskets forget the trailing lobelia trailing tomatoes.

[DavidT]

As topcat intimated, vegan-organic is an impossible ideal. What about bird and animal droppings plus the fact that most soil and compost has been through the gut of animals (worms etc)? We compost our own wastes. Is that vegan?

This is not to belittle veganic growing - far from it, it's a tongue-in-cheek comment. Vegan organic, combined with permaculture and intensive growing, is the ideal. It avoids the question of land over-use and habitat destruction because it seeks to promote the opposite.

By growing intensively (closely-spaced companion planting) in top-quality soil, the use of any pesticides is curtailed as pests tend to attack weaker plants or are put off by the proximity of plants they dislike.

Physical barriers to pests are worth a lot of study, too, such as a 'wall' of fine mesh around carrots prevents carrot root fly attack, as they can only fly about 20 to 25 inches above the ground.

Vegetable manure, properly composted, avoiding diseased, acidic and poisonous material, builds up the soil over the years, adding organic matter and holding nutrients.

Animal manure tends, over time, to make the soil more acidic. Horse manure particularly is a waste of time as the content is so little changed from the original, why not use the original and cut out the middle person?

Animal manure is a cheap, almost free by-product, which is possibly the main driver in its use. On a stock-free growing area, all materials should be composted and 'green manure', plants which are grown specifically to help enrich the soil, is grown.

Two highly practical books recommended for anyone considering growing their own food are:

How to grow more vegetables (and fruits, nuts, berries, grains and other crops) than you ever thought possible on less land than you can imagine by John Jeavons and

Plants for a future, edible and useful plants for a healthier world by Ken Fern

Both books justifiably scorn the use of animal products in growing food.

Risker's article came at the question from a distasteful angle and I wouldn't set much store by it. It's hardly worth commenting on but unfortunately the author will receive much more coverage than vegan-organic growers will.

The more companies growing organically - big and small - the better. See my comments about healthy plants regarding the notion that there are more residues in organic than non-organic and read about intensive methods and permaculture regarding the land use issue.

[DavidT]

I'm waiting for my grocer to get organic grapes. i rarely eat normal grapes because they seem like little pkgs of pesticides.. i just have an overactive imagination.

I recently bought some organic grapes.

I love red grapes, one of my favourite fruits. I could eat a whole pack at one sitting but I dislike (a) buying stuff in plastic and (b) the fact that many grapes travel huge distances, such as from Chile etc. If they were fair trade I wouldn't have as much of a problem.

The organic grapes were the best I have ever tasted. This is no exaggeration. They were simply unbelievably different. They were absolutely indescribable compared with toxic produce. The only drawback was them coming all the way from Argentina to Ireland, in plastic. Can't win 'em all...

I also found some organic oranges from Spain in the local wholefood shop. Again, there is no comparison with the muck found in supermarkets.

Even organic food in supermarkets is suspect, largely because these businesses like to buy cheap, cheap, cheap. Several times I've found supermarket organics to be of low quality. This does no-one any good at all.

[sandra2816]

I recently bought some organic grapes.

I love red grapes, one of my favourite fruits. I could eat a whole pack at one sitting but I dislike (a) buying stuff in plastic and (b) the fact that many grapes travel huge distances, such as from Chile etc. If they were fair trade I wouldn't have as much of a problem.

The organic grapes were the best I have ever tasted. This is no exaggeration. They were simply unbelievably different. They were absolutely indescribable compared with toxic produce. The only drawback was them coming all the way from Argentina to Ireland, in plastic. Can't win 'em all...

I also found some organic oranges from Spain in the local wholefood shop. Again, there is no comparison with the muck found in supermarkets.

Even organic food in supermarkets is suspect, largely because these businesses like to buy cheap, cheap, cheap. Several times I've found supermarket organics to be of low quality. This does no-one any good at all.

I would recommend that taking organic foods is just great for your health and this makes you really feel good.Recently, I had come across a great supplier of Organic foods which had NinjaGreens Organic Supplements that I would recommend to the organic food lovers.

[*live*&*let*live]

I haven't read all this thread just odd posts. I personally buy organic when cost permits and when available. The majority of my fruit/veg is organic purely because of the pesticides used. I can't afford to pay what I class as 'silly' prices for a piece of fruit/veg I have seen some astronomical prices on the web for a single piece. I do get deliveries of veg/fruit boxes twice a month but get the things that don't come in them from the supermarkets and things to last us inbetween deliveries. Organic there is always more expensive, with a limited selection and regular fruit/veg usually works out the same as what I paid for organic in my box deliveries! Organic doesn't always last the same as non-organic but this confirms to me that they are not using pesticides.