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Thread: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

  1. #51
    spo
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Hi, Tails and Hi, Seaside
    I would have posted my own remarks, here, but, you both said exactly what I would have liked to say. So, a BIG THANK YOU to both of you for posting.
    BTW, didn't Korn definitively post to ChartT to say that a FLESH EATER
    is not a vegan? So, why is ChartT still debating this, as if we can be convinced?
    spo

  2. #52
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    CharT this may already have been covered you obviously care strongly about sentient life. Thankfully your lifestyle, like the vegan way, ensures to the highest feasible degree, the ellimination of abuse of land & air sentients through actions.
    However your taste for certain seafoods will no doubt have a direct affect on other forms of sealife - sealife which you do consider to have brains, central nervous systems and are therefore capable of feeling pain. Suffocation - not a nice way to go, but fisherman don't care - do you?

  3. #53
    Happiness's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Quote ChartT
    Yet there's no brain, and no centralized nervous system; no thought and no feeling, as there's no way to process these functions. Eating them or not falls into a gray area where there are no rights and no wrongs, only choices.
    How about this perspective: The consumption of oysters does support the oyster farming industry which has direct harmful effects to the environment and the other organsims in the area. Here are a few quotes:

    "Effluent resulting from aquaculture activities can contain many pollutants which are harmful to the waterways environment. These can include nutrients and organic matter. Organic waste from excess food and fish faeces, or shellfish pseudo-faeces, which settles onto the waterway's floor can pollute the area. Oyster farming, with the oysters raised on racks in shallow estuarine waters, can also have a number of harmful effects on the estuarine environment. First, oyster leases are `out of bounds' to other waterway users (sailors, boat fishers etc.). Second, if oyster racks are poorly aligned to the prevailing currents, they don't flush very well, which means that wastes can build up in the area. Realigning oyster racks to suit ebb and flood tide currents helps both the flushing of the lease areas and oyster growth." http://www.wrc.wa.gov.au/region/sout...awrb/c7.2.html

    This is a quote relating to aquaculture and its effects of the environment:
    "Disturbance to the benthic (sea-floor) environment. Activities associated with oyster farms in particular can have an adverse impact on the benthic environment. Trampling by farm workers can also cause damage.
    Impact on sediment quality. The deposition of organic matter on sediments directly underneath farms has the potential to accumulate and potentially impact on naturally occurring plants and animals."
    http://www.environment.sa.gov.au/rep...uaculture.html

    Fecal matter has high nitrogen content which at high levels stimulates the growth of algae blooms which in turn consumes alot of oxygen from the water. This makes it pretty hard for other fish, inverts, plants, anything to exist in the area down-current from the farm. It is the same for fish farms and oyster farms. This is a pretty big problem. Does anyone know about the "dead zone" around the mouth of the mississippi river? This is exactly what happened there. Nitrogen rich ferterlizer and run-off from cow farms is the cause for that. Too much nitrogen = bad news for marine ecosystems.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Happiness
    And I know I am new to veganism and I still have the stars in my eyes but from what I have read veganism was founded on the principle of ahimsa (dynamic harmlessness) and that it is not "sufficient to simply avoid specific foods and products; it is neccessary to actively participate in beneficial selfless actions as well". And in my book that means every living creature is sacred in its own right. Brain or no brain. We are all connected and one.

    Quote ChartT
    Would you a reference to this information? A URL would helpt. Thanks!
    Its acually from a book. Here is a link to the Amazon page for it.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...23901?v=glance
    "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"
    Irina Dunn :D
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  4. #54
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Postyed by Happiness:
    Too much nitrogen = bad news for marine ecosystems.
    You are so right, Happiness! Nitrites and nitrates, the products of the breakdown of ammonia wastes that come not only from outside sources, but the marine organisms themselves, are not just detrimental to the ocean environment because they promote algal blooms, they are directly poisonous to marine creatures just as our own urine is poisonous to us! If the oyster racks are preventing the ocean currents from exerting their cleansing abilities, then supporting the oyster industry is like forcing all the animals, sentient or not so sentient, to simultaneously bathe in their own urine and suffocate.

  5. #55
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    In a basic Google search "scallops+fishing" the first option given, lead me to 'Marine Department' data, http://www.shab.org/mdgd.htm
    The first page which can be accessed from this data refers to scallops as 'animals'!

  6. #56
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    [QUOTE=John]CharT, I'm sure that you are a nice person, most meat-eaters are, but you are not a vegan. Not in practice and not in spirit.

    as my posts indicate i am new here and i am not abouto to begin to throw my weight around.but to me if you consume these living things, you are not a vegetarian...you are someone who does not eat red meat or dairy products..im sure someoen has a definition for this somhow..i know there are different degrees of measuring what is cruel and what isnt, and to whwat extent and it seems this is the way you work... and to me that is a lot better than someobody who guzzles dairy and eats meat as a rule. but to quote what john said, i beleive i know what was meant, someone who is vegan in spirit would not have the desire to consume a living thing anyhow..i am not judging you..JMHO.... and i agreed with this bit aswell.


    Whether an animal feels pain during death or not, a vegan won't eat an animal. If the animal were unconscious, or even feeling pleasure during death, a vegan would not eat an animal.

  7. #57

    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Quote Happiness
    I'm deeply enjoying this thread and everyones input. I'm new here and a bit shy of talking on such a hot topic but as a marine biology student I thought I'd throw in my two bits:

    Oysters are part of the phylum molluska (as we've determined) and while they have no brain they do have three pairs of ganglia. Ganglia is a grouping of nerve cells essentially. They also have a heart. And blood. And gills. They are acually towards the top of phylogenetic tree for inverts. Species of bivalves have been found in fresh water, salt water and even thermal vents where they rotate from areas of high sulfur concentrations (for feeding) to low (to keep from poisoning their blood). Damn that's cool, these animals have my respect.

    And I know I am new to veganism and I still have the stars in my eyes but from what I have read veganism was founded on the principle of ahimsa (dynamic harmlessness) and that it is not "sufficient to simply avoid specific foods and products; it is neccessary to actively participate in beneficial selfless actions as well". And in my book that means every living creature is sacred in its own right. Brain or no brain. We are all connected and one.
    Excellent! Nice to read from a new vegan who really is a vegan. Thanks!!!! You have cheered me up immensley.

    Mary

  8. #58
    Kevster
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Thought i'd chuck this little wonder story in here, it's intrinsically moronic,

    'Lawyer invents lobster stun-gun
    Lobsters could soon be "crusta-stunned" to death, if an invention by a British barrister takes off.'

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4097798.stm

  9. #59
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Quote Mozbee
    Quote from the above website - "Live lobsters can be humanely killed by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for about two hours" Lloyd Burgess (TV chef) - maybe he should be frozen to within 1degree Celcius of life just to give him some idea!

    Being Boiled Hurts - Lobster Liberation
    how the **** so they work out that that is humane?!?

    thanky mozbee..i am named after a hamster funnily enough!lol

  10. #60
    Cryospark
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    I guess it slows them down to hibernative state but it's still bloody cold, guess better then being boiled alive.
    Someone mentioned canines I'd think these were designed to be used in adverse weather conditions when there was no food about, the person would be forced to eat meat as a basic survival function. Though our digestive system makes us generally herbivores

    Using then to contend that we are omnivores is a rubbish claim, we certainly are not, consumption of meat causes far to much unbalanced dysfunction.

  11. #61
    spo
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Quote Mozbee
    Quote from the above website - "Live lobsters can be humanely killed by putting them in a plastic bag in the freezer for about two hours" Lloyd Burgess (TV chef) - maybe he should be frozen to within 1degree Celcius of life just to give him some idea!

    Being Boiled Hurts - Lobster Liberation
    Another really disturbing example of human cruelty. Why on earth would this be considered humane??
    spo

  12. #62
    Ratbag Cal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    This freezer method is suggested as a humane method of killing cane toads here in Aus. I have read somewhere that freezing is certainly not humane and I too can't imagine why anyone would think it is.
    A bit rattled

  13. #63
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    I know why this is considered "humane". Since the humane treatment of animals allows for killing them when "necessary", freezing a lobster is considered "humane", because the lobster (or any other animal) is found not to have suffered the expected trauma that other types of killing may induce. Freezing causes animals to simply go to sleep, which is more humane than being boiled alive, I suppose. I mean, I guess I would rather go to sleep in the snow and never wake up, rather than be thrown into a pot of boiling water! Of course, the lobster shouldn't have to choose between those two kinds of murder in the first place! But that's why humane societies are called "humane" societies, and not "ethical" societies. "Ethical" societies would never kill homeless animals, or turn them over to labs and pet food companies.

  14. #64
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Humans can be weird

  15. #65
    spo
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote Mozbee
    Humans can be weird
    I agree, Moz
    Poor lobsters - why can't we just leave them alone?
    spo

  16. #66
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Sorry I just got into the flow, wasn't exactly a poet at school either!

    Don't be a nobster
    By eating lobster
    Rid your hunger
    With a vegan taste-bud quencher
    But most importantly of all
    The lobsters can then live
    Happilly afterall!

  17. #67
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    i agree we should just leave them alone to live thier natural lives like we do
    its sad killing something in any way is thought of as humane!

  18. #68
    Cryospark
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    if they insist on a humane way why don't they knock them out with chloraform or something first

  19. #69
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Posted by Mozbee:
    Don't be a nobster
    By eating lobster
    Rid your hunger
    With a vegan taste-bud quencher
    But most importantly of all
    The lobsters can then live
    Happilly afterall!

    You're a poet, and I didn't know it!

  20. #70
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels


  21. #71
    Eating Wildflower's Avatar
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Quote ChartT
    They are not capable of thinking, much less having an interest in continuing to exist.
    If they do not have an interest to exist, why do they? These animals defiantely spawn and repopulate.

    By the way, vegan is about caring for others. It is about standing up and having a voice for animals that cannot speak for themselves. The fact that they lack what we perceive as intelligence, is all the more reason not to eat them. They simply do not know better, and we do.

    Placing a value on life based on perceived intelligience is one of the worst things I have ever heard. Do you know what you are saying?

  22. #72
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    Wink Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    I want to start off by saying: I know I'm posting somewhat late in this thread but I found it absolutely fascinating so couldn't resist even if the issue at hand is a closed one

    quick anecdotal introduction :

    During one of my senior year english classes in high school we often had discussions having to do with issues such as what it meant to be civilized and cultured etc. Most of these discussions generated much debate due to the fact that people's definitions were often different from one another. However, everytime one of these topics arose I quickly ran over to the dictionary to give the literal definition so we would all be on the same page for a jumping off point and it quickly became a running joke.

    Therefore, staying true to myself I consulted my good friend Miriam-Webster:

    First step was looking up the definition of a Vegan:

    Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
    Function: noun
    Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
    : a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)
    Next step was looking up the definition of an animal:

    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin, from animale, neuter of animalis animate, from anima soul -- more at ANIMATE
    1 : any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation
    As long as we all agree on the fact that the Miriam-Webster Dictionary is a good resource and quite factual when it comes to defining words in the english language - I think it is safe to say that mussels and clams etc. do fall under the "do not eat" section of being a vegan.

    However, I do want to say that I have a lot of respect for ChartT. I think it is extremely important to think through your beliefs and ideals and question and to really take the time to figure out what you believe is right in your heart and why. I feel like too many people in America today and in the World even just follow certain doctorines and beliefs blindly and the fact that you did such extensive research and really tried to disect your beliefs and let it marinate is very commendable. However, in the end, for myself and just going off of basic definitions, it is not okay to eat mussels, clams, scallops, etc. on the basis that they are in fact animals and vegans do not eat animals.
    "An outside enemy exists only if there is anger inside."
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  23. #73
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Nooo!! A vegan can't eat mussells etc!
    Hi All, Im New.. Sarah aged 15, a vegan from Bristol, UK.

    CharT If you are consuming them whatever your debate (Which i don't agree with anyway) you are directly supporting the cruel fishing trade who are sweeping clean the Ocean's for 'sea food'. Please don't suppport them; its like a vegan (so say) not eating lamb but wearing wool.

    Sarah

  24. #74
    sugarmouse
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    Default Re: New to veganforum.com

    Placing a value on life based on perceived intelligience is one of the worst things I have ever heard. Do you know what you are saying?

    i agree wildflower.if i didnt..i would be inclined to say come on i know plenty of stupid people..lets eat chuck them on a plate and eat them aswell...

  25. #75
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    My mother just gave me a vegetarian cook book and it actually says there are a variety of semi-vegetarians. One is called a mollo-vegetarian, which is a vegetarian who consumes clams, scallops, oysters and other mollusks. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

    "Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook" page 15

  26. #76

    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    People just keep making up more and more terms to change the term "vegetarian". It's like saying :"I'm vegetarian and only eat fruits and vegetables, including fish."

    Like, what the heck?! Last I checked fish wasn't a vegetable.

  27. #77
    veganrockchick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    The 'semi vegetarians' have other caterogories like lacto-vegetarianism. I just wish they didnt use the word vegetarian!
    :mad: 500 Animals are Tortured & Killed inside of Huntingdon Life Sciences Every single day for research into colourings, cosmetics etc that only 5% of results apply to humans :mad:

  28. #78
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote Alpha Jerk
    My mother just gave me a vegetarian cook book and it actually says there are a variety of semi-vegetarians. One is called a mollo-vegetarian, which is a vegetarian who consumes clams, scallops, oysters and other mollusks. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

    "Vegetarian Times Complete Cookbook" page 15
    I was actually reading a "healthy" vegetarian site that suggested eating fish for the healthy fat. I thought "WHAT??????" It seems like there are many people confused on what a vegetarian (and especially vegan) should eat.

    I really hate the term "semi-vegetarian". It's like saying you are a "semi-serial killer".

  29. #79
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote KarmaGirl
    I really hate the term "semi-vegetarian". It's like saying you are a "semi-serial killer".
    LOL
    "Man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills" - Arthur Schopenhauer

  30. #80
    Why hello! xwitchymagicx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote Kerio
    People just keep making up more and more terms to change the term "vegetarian". It's like saying :"I'm vegetarian and only eat fruits and vegetables, including fish."

    Like, what the heck?! Last I checked fish wasn't a vegetable.
    Wow? I'd never have realised a fish wasn't a vegetable!! lol I've never understood how one can be a vegetarian but eat fish...fish are living animals. Oh well I'll be confused forever.
    "It's not that people suddenly start breeding like rabbits; it's just that people stopped dropping like flies" - population explosion

  31. #81

    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Some info on mollusks... if anyone bothers to read
    http://sps.k12.ar.us/massengale/mollusk_notes_b1.htm

  32. #82
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote rujoon
    Some info on mollusks... if anyone bothers to read
    http://sps.k12.ar.us/massengale/mollusk_notes_b1.htm
    Thanks Rujoon, I did! I love the beautiful pictures on that site. Though I could never study biology, on account of using live specimens, I loved palaeontology, which is the study of fossils. Sea life fascinates me!

  33. #83

    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    I am glad u like it. I like palaeontology too when I was young, I was fascinated by dinosaurs and wanted to be a palaeontologist back then.

  34. #84

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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Wild mussells are dredged which harms the environment and kills other sealife. Make sure you buy farmed mussells.

    No you're not vegan if you eat shellfish but its his choice to eat them. He doesnt think they're conscious so his conscience is clear. Maybe he's right, maybe it's the same as eating plants. I disagree - I think they are conscious creatures and I'd never in a million years eat them. But I can understand him eating them if he thinks they're the same level of life as plants.
    But it isnt fair to call yourself vegan if you eat shellfish because it breeds misunderstanding among meateaters.

    Everyone has to draw the line somewhere. I draw it at bacteria in spirit and at plants in practise because I've tried to be fruitarian and failed.

  35. #85
    Seaside
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote Cairidh
    No you're not vegan if you eat shellfish but its his choice to eat them. He doesnt think they're conscious so his conscience is clear.
    No, its not his choice, any more than it is my choice to go to the hospital and carve a steak off a brain dead human on life support.

  36. #86
    Happiness's Avatar
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Quote Cairidh
    Wild mussells are dredged which harms the environment and kills other sealife. Make sure you buy farmed mussells.
    I just have to throw this in...don't buy, eat, support farmed mussels either. They are just as disastrous on the environment as dredging for wild ones. Nitrous waste run-off, changing the flow of the river, changing the pH of the water, changing the formation of the river bed...the list runs on and on. So....that's my two and three cents.
    "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle"
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  37. #87

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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Oh
    I just read an article about which is the best seafood for the environment and it said farmed mussells and scallops.
    So I dread to think what the others are like!!!!!!!

  38. #88

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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    Could you say where the article was which you read so we can read it too and see if it is correct? Because I have read very bad things about the environmental consequences of shrimp farming and salmon farming. I would like to see the article you read. A web link would be ideal if you could do that.
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

  39. #89
    satirecafe
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    Question what makes clams animals?

    someone told me that clams don't have a central nervous system and aren't even considered animals. is this true?? i tried to google clams but there really isn't anything useful. just recipes for cooking them.
    Last edited by flutterby; Jan 18th, 2007 at 09:25 PM. Reason: this was the 1st post in a similar thread

  40. #90

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    Default Re: what makes clams animals?

    Wikipedia is your friend .

    Clams are shelled marine or freshwater mollusks belonging to the class Bivalvia (Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Mollusca[1]). While the term "clam" has no taxonomic significance in biology, in general use, the term clam refers to a bivalve (a mollusk whose body is protected by two symmetrical shells) that is not an oyster, mussel, or a scallop, and that has a more-or-less oval shape, or alternately, to a freshwater mussel (Merriam-Webster Dictionary.). Clams are invertebrates, with shells divided into two pieces called valves. These pieces are joined with a hinge joint, and with two adductor muscles that open and close the shells. Clams have a heart, blood vessels, and kidneys. An exception to the oval shape is the razor clam, which has an elongate shell suggesting a straight razor. Some quahogs on the Eastern American Coast may be 200 years old.

  41. #91

    Default Re: what makes clams animals?

    clams are animals because they eat other organisms. plants make their own food, animals obtain it from an outside source.

    which, when considered from an entirely outside ethical perspective with no knowledge of the way the world "really" works, seems kind of ironic. you'd think vegans would be against eating creatures which harm none (plants) and for eating creatures which readily murder others (animals). not that i'm advocating this, haha. but you'd think we'd be all for honoring the peaceful species! i wonder if there is a diet out there which only consumes carnivores.....

  42. #92

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    Default Re: what makes clams animals?

    Quote satirecafe View Post
    someone told me that clams don't have a central nervous system and aren't even considered animals. is this true?? i tried to google clams but there really isn't anything useful. just recipes for cooking them.
    They have a nervous system.
    Here is a diagram of it.
    http://www.manandmollusc.net/advance...ivalve_ns.html
    Clams are bivalves.
    And yes, they are animals.
    see
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivalvia
    look on the right hand side of the page and see they are in the "kingdom" animalia.
    Last edited by herbwormwood; Jan 19th, 2007 at 02:44 PM. Reason: more info
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

  43. #93

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    Default Re: what makes clams animals?

    Quote karmadust View Post
    clams are animals because they eat other organisms. plants make their own food, animals obtain it from an outside source.

    which, when considered from an entirely outside ethical perspective with no knowledge of the way the world "really" works, seems kind of ironic. you'd think vegans would be against eating creatures which harm none (plants) and for eating creatures which readily murder others (animals). not that i'm advocating this, haha. but you'd think we'd be all for honoring the peaceful species! i wonder if there is a diet out there which only consumes carnivores.....

    Wikipedia has a good explanation of what makes a plant a plant rather than an animal.
    You may find it useful
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant#Classification
    See my local diary ... http://herbwormwood.blogspot.com/

  44. #94
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    Default Re: Clams, oysters, scallops and mussels

    I ate clams as a young "vegetarian" but my fiance told me one day that they "have a little foot and use it to escape" so I stopped. Anything that can run from danger is inedible in my book.
    it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble

  45. #95
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    Default Oysters

    Apparantly it's ethically sound to eat oysters because they don't have a brain or a nervous system. Despite such news I'm certainly not about to start.
    What are your thoughts on the matter?

    Please note that I have never, nor shall ever eat an oyster
    Last edited by Korn; May 20th, 2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread

  46. #96
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    Default Re: Oysters

    Quote humansituation View Post
    Apparantly it's ethically sound to eat oysters
    Says who? No-one on here I wouldn't think!
    "Do what you can with what you have where you are."
    - Theodore Roosevelt

  47. #97
    Abe Froman Risker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oysters

    Here's a thread on it - http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3493

    The guy that started the whole thing seems to have deleted all his posts last month for some reason though...
    "I don't want to live on this planet any more" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

  48. #98
    75% Chickpea Cumin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oysters

    Oysters are part of the animal kingdom.
    What more do you need to know?
    How good it is to be well-fed, healthy, and kind all at the same time. Henry J. Heimlich

  49. #99
    baffled harpy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oysters

    Sorry to contradict, but as I understand it they do have a nervous system - they just don't have a central nervous system (brain and spinal cord - well obviously they don't have a spinal cord!).

    Wikipedia has a description of the nervous system they do have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivalve

    I have seen people asserting that they don't feel pain but I don't think that follows from the fact that their nervous system isn't much like ours.

  50. #100
    Can't cook. Sarah_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Oysters

    Well I ain't eating any oysters.
    Either this wallpaper goes, or I do.

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