I'm not vegan anymore

[drummer]

Yes, I've decided not to be a vegan anymore. Before anyone passes judgement on me, please read all I have to say before you go calling me a cruel inhumane meat-eater. I am not trying to justify what I am doing, but perhaps once you read this you may understand what has driven me to this.

At the moment, I am living in a small town (less than 700 people) in the middle of nowhere. The nearest large town is Adelaide, which is 300km away. The nearest major city is Melbourne, which is 600km away. For the past 11 months I have been living here, but not by choice - my partner owns a house here and we are simply trying to sell it so we never have to live here again, we are city people.
In order for me to get vegan food, I must travel at least 240km to another town and the price of petrol here has risen to $1.20 per litre, making it almost impossible to get vegan foods regularly. On top of this, my car is 41 years old and cannot handle too much strain.
Sadly, Australia is nothing like Britain and the USA - where there are vegans in abundance and a wide variety of vegan food is readily available. Even in Adelaide I cannot get most of the vegan foods I could get if I lived in Melbourne.
So for the past 11 months, this has been my diet -

non-organic fruit and vegetables, apart from my home grown strawberries and cherry tomatoes.
Brown rice, wholemeal pasta, bread, cereals, etc.
Tinned beans (dried ones are usually unavailable)
Once every three months, I had the opportunity to go to Adelaide and buy tofu and tempeh, but those stocks all too soon ran out. Most of the time I have to go without these and I'm stuck eating tinned beans.
Soy milk, soy yogurt, soy cheese. Even the soy cheese and soy yogurt are not always available, sometimes I have to go a month without.
Nuts, when available.
Vegan products are not available - fake meats, etc. I can't even get TVP mince, chunks or slices. There are no restaurants that serve vegan food - there's no restaraunts at all, just desert.
To me, this diet lacks variety. Now that I'm 9 weeks pregnant, this food simply is not enough nourishment and variety for me. I'm suprised I lasted as long as I did on this diet. It saddnes me that it has to be like this, that the world surrounding me is against me. I feel a bit depressed about it all. I've gone through so much frustration just to eat and now I'm so bored and fed up with this diet I just can't keep doing it right now. Perhaps after I move to Melbourne (Which will probably be in December) I can go vegan again because there is so much variety in vegan foods compared to where I am now.
I will not be consuming cows' milk products, eggs, cows, pigs, sheep, goats, etc. I will only be eating some free-range organic chicken once a week, plus a small amount of fish - not very much while I'm pregnant due to the mercury content. On a vegan diet I feel malnourished and I've been craving chicken since I got pregnant, and I've been craving tuna as well. I will not deny my baby the nourishment he/she needs.
I was vegan for 6 years, I still believe in veganism, and will almost be vegan still anyway.
Some of you may argue that although eating free-range organic chicken is not as cruel and does not contain antibiotics, etc, it still isn't healthy because of 'all that saturated fat and cholesterol'. Well, I'm not going to be eating it twice a day every day like most people, once a week will be enough and the rest of my meals will be vegan. I'll still consume the soy products(which will cancel out the saturated fat and cholesterol) and beans.

I guess I am not welcome here anymore, so as soon as you have all voiced your opinions I will leave this forum and not return until I'm a vegan again.
I am sad about all this, it's just sad that I can't get the foods I need to feel energetic and satisfied so I've been driven to eat chickens and fish.
I wish all of you well and say hoorah to veganism, because if it wasn't for vegans, the world would be missing some very intelligent, compassionate, caring and kind people.

All my love,

Vegan Drummer

[snivelingchild]

I feel so sorry you feel like you need to do this, so I say this only because I know you would be saddened to eat animal products.

From what you described, I can't imagine how you would not be eating nutritionally. You should be able to get everything you need with the fruits, veggies and grains. Perhaps before you give up, we can talk in detail about your diet, and the people here can help to make sure you can get a healthy vegan diet with your limited resources.

You really do not need all the soy products to be healthy. If you think your diet lacks variety, can you start buying more types of fruits and veggies, or do you buy as much variety as is sold where you live? I understand your building concerns about your pregnancy, but I din't think adding meat is the answer. Please stay and talk in detail about your needs, and I'm sure people here would be willing to help. I'm assuming you don't have a vegan-friendly nutritionalist in your area, but you can get the answers to what you need. A diet consisting of just fruits, veggies, and grains can be very nutritionally sound for a pregnant woman, you just need to watch what you do.

Is there anything that you are specifically concerned about? I hope we can find an alternative answer.

[veganblue]

Dear Vegan Drummer,

I find it distressing that circumstances have brought you to this place and can imagine that there must be a great deal of anguish for you in making this decision, along with the great concern for the welfare of you new child.

I come originally from Mildura and know that some of the more 'exotic' vegan foods are in short supply or very expensive - such things as tempeh and tofu.

I know you have already made the decision but I would recommend going to a supportive nutritionist who could guide you in what food choices are very important for you to be getting in bulk and design a good healthy diet for both you and the baby.

Living in Adelaide, I can help you find some fantastic shops that stock a huge range of inexpensive foods that I find essential for a good diet and last for ages. I cook the majority of my own food from scratch and it you are in Adelaide every three months, can assist you in getting some great tofu and tempeh varieties that are less than half the price you get in a supermarket. Both can be frozen but the tofu comes packed with a three month life just in the fridge.

There is a wholesale warehouse here that stocks the hugest range of pasta, beans, nuts, spices, herbs, oils, flours, TVP, grains and glorious tahini that will last easily three months and are much cheaper than other retail outlets. There is also a place in the area that specialises in faux meats that are vegan, if you get the craving for such things with bub on board.

I completely understand your country predicament, but I know that it is possible to eat well and inexpensively in the country as a vegan; but it will take a little organisation.

I can't imagine how it would be to eat meats again, but if you would appreciate any assistance that I can offer for when you are in town, PM me about it.

Best wishes.

[veganblue]

I forgot to add, I know a sympathetic nutritionist here in Adelaide. While not cheap, she is very helpful and would be able to address your concerns.

[snivelingchild]

Remember, you can eat beans and veggies for protein instead of soy, and greens for calcium instead of soy milk or tofu. A cup of brocolli contains as much calcium as a glass of soy milk. These same dark green, leafy veggies contain lots of folic acid. You do not need to rely on special vegan "replacements" to be healthy. Please, give this another chance, and I'm sure everyone here will help you with ANYTHING you need.

I don't want to insult you with this if these are things you've already looked into, but just in case, here a couple of links to get started links:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/veganpregnancy.htm
http://www.vegfamily.com/vegan-pregn...r-vitamins.htm

I know this information is basic, but it's a starting point and I'd like to pinpoint exactly where you feel you may be lacking, so maybe a solution can be figured out.

Perhaps you could describe exactly what kinds of foods are available to you.

[Seaside]

I hope no one here will judge you or treat you cruelly for your feelings, vegan drummer. Remember that pregnancy can cause profound emotional and psychological changes, not just physical ones. You are going through a lot right now, and it doesn't look like you have lots of supportive people around you who can sympathize with your views. There are plenty of people here, however, who would like to help you if you will let them!

[eve]

Many of us live a long way from capital cities such as Adelaide and Melbourne. My nearest city is Brisbane, a 4-hour drive for me, but I only go there if there's a medical appointment.

As snivelingchild says, there is plenty of good nutrition in fruit, veges, and beans, nuts etc without bothering with special vegan foods. That's how I manage anyway, though I do buy soymilk, but don't drink too much of it. As sniv points out, plenty of leafy green veges are necessary for you. But forget about the chicken and fish - those foods will do you no good at all.

[celtic rose]

Sometimes circumstances are against you.
I truly hope you don't start eating flesh again but please come back to veganism as quickly as posible.
Good luck with the baby.

[snaffler]

Vegan Drummer many people are vegan with in practical boundaries. That is just unparactical to drive such a long way to buy food.

It would be very wrong for anyone to pass opinion on you I do not think for a second anyone would either and if they do they are trying to be elitist and I think this forum is a community for all to support each other.

Look at things in a positive light you have goal and you will get to your final destination again and be happy as cow jumping over the moon .

In the mean time do as you need to do and be happy do get down, unless its to some funky tunes errmm sorry daft humour.

I must admit reading some stories and articals of the struggle people have getting vegan food and products even in the UK I must count my lucky beans (re-phrased for vegan purposes).

Around the South West and over on the coast of Brighton Vegan and Veggie food is so easy to come by, I will always think twice in future when walking out of my door to the shop opposite just to grap a quick carton of Soya Milk.... I feel guilty now.........I

Here a big UK vegan supporting wave I hope things change for you soon.

Best wishes
Snaffler

[Hasha]

That's a real shame. You should do what you feel you must do, but I certainly hope you will come back to veganism at some point.

Incidentally, it looks like I'll be eating pretty much what you described when I go home (Belgrade, Serbia) for the summer break. Since I turned vegan last summer, I've only spent two and a half weeks there (I was on campus the rest of the summer), but this time I'll be there for almost two months. Well, no soy milk (or rather, there was some imported dry soy milk that cost a c*apload of money and didn't taste terribly well; this time I have an intention of going without), to the best of my knowledge, no tofu or tempeh... But actually, I'm more excited than nervous. Locally grown, fresh fruits and veges! And if I can't get much (any?) soy, I can certainly get lentils for example. So I'll be fine.

[kokopelli]

Vegan drummer, that is very sad.

But if you're going to Adelaide every 3 months, you could stock up with easily enough food to last, as veganblue said. TVP and dried beans and nuts last for at least a year without going off. Also, you can make your own tofu and tempeh. Tofu is fun to make, but quite time consuming (about an hour to make 1-2lbs).

My partner and I used to run a food co-op where we would go to a wholesaler and buy enough bulk food to last the 3 months between trips, for ourselves and the other members. It's just a question of being organised and working out your needs in advance. And veganblue promised to help you.

I've had 3 kids while being vegan, and they're all perfectly healthy, in fact much healthier than average, they've hardly ever had to visit a doctor. Luckily, I never had the cravings you describe, which must be really hard to deal with. But I can assure you that it's absolutely unnecessary to consume any animal produce while pregnant or breastfeeding, or for babies or children to ever have to eat animal foods.

I sympathise with your predicament, but I think you should think hard about your situation, because I don't think the small amount of animal food you're considering eating will make much difference, nutritionally, and the regressive step it represents psychologically will not be beneficial. Also, if you succumb to temptation now, it will be harder for you to bring up your child as a vegan, because you will see resorting to animal protein as a solution to health problems your child may encounter.

Pregnancy and child rearing are probably the biggest challenges to any mother who rejects 'traditional' values, the time when you feel the judgement of society at large most strongly. But personally I've found staying true to my vegan ideals throughout to be the most rewarding thing I've ever done. Having raised my children as vegans is what I feel most satisfaction with in my life. It's a great opportunity to demonstrate commitment to the sanctity of all life, and our environment. And my children themselves are all glad to be vegan, in fact they have something of a superiority complex about it.

I'm fortunate that my partner is also a committed vegan, we became vegan together several years before having our first child. That solidarity has proved indispensible, and I can imagine it would be a lot harder to stay vegan without support.

My partner just suggested setting up your own wholefood co-op in your area, then you wouldn't always have to use your old car, but maybe no-one else is interested?

Anyway, whatever you choose to do, I wish you well, don't stress, be happy!

[Geoff]

Amanda Benham is an accredited dietician and has raised 2 vegan daughters. See:
http://www.healthy.onestop.net/

[Evilfluffbunny]

Vegan products are not available - fake meats, etc.

I'm not arguing with you, but don't the 'Cheatin' meats come from Australia? I used to buy sandwich fillings (sliced 'chicken' etc) and I remember reading the label and was surprised to find they were all produced in Australia. I'm not sure if these are still available or not. If it wasn't 'Cheatin' or 'Not' meat then it was something very similar.

[puffin]

Sounds like you are having a hard time at the moment and by reading your post i can see it has been hard for you. I have two children and i am so thankful that i didnt crave meat, but i havnt eaten meat for 16 years and to be honest i cant remember what it tastes like I didnt eat the best balanced diet when i was pregnant because i couldnt face a lot of food but my childen were born a very healthy weight, but i can understand why you are worried. I would like to know why you feel like you are not welcome here? reading peoples replys tells me that a lot of people would like you to stay.
Good luck x

[kokopelli]

I forgot to say, the first three months are the worst from the point of view of feeling sick, cravings, etc, so if you hold out a little longer you'll probably start feeling better!

Also, have you seen 'Spiritual Midwifery' by Ina May Gaskin?
It's absolutely brilliant, inspiring and supportive for pregnant vegans.

Ina May Gaskin and Stephen Gaskin founded The Farm in Tennessee, which was originally (in the 1970s) a 1,000 acre farm housing 1,000 vegans, some of whom learnt to be midwives and doctors so they could deliver their own babies. I've found it to be the most helpful book I've ever read on the subject, although some parts are a bit dated now. I've lent my copy to many other expectant mothers, who also found it to be a great help.

I can't recommend it highly enough!
You can get it from Amazon.

[Aurora]

Good luck and whatever you decide to do I hope you have a happy, healthy pregnancy and baby.

Aurora xx

[Artichoke47]

Gosh, that diet sounds great to me. It's all I ever want!

I think you should stick with veganism. Have you been having cravings and therefore want to switch to omnivore? I've heard of pregnant women having cravings for flesh/secretion items.

[Peas'nHominy]

Dearest one, my heart feels so heavy for you.

I have had three pregnancies. I just want to let you know that I in no way judge you or look down on you. It sounds like everyone here feels the same.

There are a lot of good suggestions here. Are you willing to talk about possibilities? *i say "willing" gently; that is, to not imply you are not a compassionate loving soul. *

Pregnancy is such a beautiful time, and yet it can be very harsh on mommy's body and emotions. Perhaps let us help you through this? We will not be rude ... (If anyone is ignunt enough to be so we'll tell'm to get bent! )

[VitaminB]

I'm going to admit I am supportive of your decsision. I don't think we can really understand where you are coming from since we have an easier time. The pregnancy is a huge factor and it might be better for your baby that you get animal product into the babies growth system. I've heard horror stories about vegan and pregnancy. I think when I am pregnant I will at least eat eggs and milk again. I do not want to take any chances. I have heard doctors get very mad about vegan women who are pregnant. I really don't think enough research has been done about veganism to be 100% sure. I would suspect a baby who be born premature or have some health problems. Most of us were concieved on meat and dairy. I think it is more important that you will SURVIVE and provide the adequate health for your baby. I hope you will be able to turn back to the vegan diet again if you wish. Until then, don't worry about it too much. I believe you made a wonderful contribution to not eating meat for the 6 years that you didn't. That is better than most of the world. If everyone limited their consumption...well, what a difference it would make. It would probably solve a lot of poverty/famine, social and political problems. Congrats on the baby and peace!

[englishvegoboi]

I am in full agreement with VitaminB.

I believe that it is possible to have a healthy and a successful pregnancy as a vegan. This however requires careful planning and consideration. For example I wouldn’t recommend tofu consumption during pregnancy as too much unfermented soya depletes iron. Tempeh would be a preferable alternative. There are some very good books available on the subject.

I do however agree that being vegan and pregnant is very difficult in many parts of rural Australia. I am sure that making the long trip to Adelaide to stock up on goods is not always practical, especially when you are pregnant. Therefore it is much better for Vegan Drummer to eat small amounts of free-range organic meat when required.

I am very glad that a member of our forum is bringing a child into the world that will be taught to think critically about important issues such as animal welfare and environmental/ social inequity. In the meantime we must all spread the vegan message so that one day in the not too distant future, it will be practical and easy to be vegan and pregnant, even in the most far flung of places.

I hope that Vegan Drummer can remain with us as an honorary member of the forum.

[John]

I can understand why Vegan Drummer is giving up veganism. I can understand why people eat flesh even when they would rather not. Let's face it, a vegan lifestyle can be a pain in the ass. It isn't easy, especially in many rural areas. And if you can't find enough food to feed yourself then you probably should eat meat.

However, a vegan diet does not harm a fetus. Many women give birth to healthy infants after a vegan pregnancy. While plenty of omni women harm their unborn children during pregnancy, most vegan mothers pay special attention to nutrition. All of the nutrients needed by a fetus are provided by a vegan diet. I would like to praise all of the compassionate mothers who believe in veganism enough to be vegan during pregnancy.

[kriz]

I'm not arguing with you, but don't the 'Cheatin' meats come from Australia? I used to buy sandwich fillings (sliced 'chicken' etc) and I remember reading the label and was surprised to find they were all produced in Australia. I'm not sure if these are still available or not. If it wasn't 'Cheatin' or 'Not' meat then it was something very similar.

Almost everyone asks me why I eat mock meats when I don't like the taste of real animal meat. Should I not get disgusted with the whole thing? Well, there are several reasons why I like it. First of all - mock meat is very easy to prepare, it only needs a quick warm up with no spices or flavors added. I can buy it in big bulks and put it in the freezer.( So, if you live far away from a major city you can bulk up for months.) When there's a meal with, let's say, chicken, rice and beans, all I have to do is adding a piece of soy chicken. Easy. Preparing a separate vegan dish is sometimes too time consuming and inconvenient, especially if you're in someone else's home.

[feline01]

I can understand why Vegan Drummer is giving up veganism. I can understand why people eat flesh even when they would rather not. Let's face it, a vegan lifestyle can be a pain in the ass. It isn't easy, especially in many rural areas. And if you can't find enough food to feed yourself then you probably should eat meat.

However, a vegan diet does not harm a fetus. Many women give birth to healthy infants after a vegan pregnancy. While plenty of omni women harm their unborn children during pregnancy, most vegan mothers pay special attention to nutrition. All of the nutrients needed by a fetus are provided by a vegan diet. I would like to praise all of the compassionate mothers who believe in veganism enough to be vegan during pregnancy.

Agree totally, John. I ate healthier during my pregnancy than any omni pregnant woman I've ever seen and I worked up to 2 days before having my twins. My doctor originally predicted that I'd be on bedrest at 20 weeks due to the fact that I was overweight and carrying twins but week after week passed and he would just shake his head in amazement. I repeatedly told him that it was being vegan and I believe that wholeheartedly. My vegan babies turned a year old yesterday and are a glowing testiment to vegan pregnancies and raising children as vegans.

[John]

Hey Feline! Happy birthday to the twins!

[kokopelli]

That's great, Feline!
Happy birthday to your children

Actually I couldn't disagree more with people who have criticised veganism during pregnancy, except that of course you have to educate yourself and ensure you get everything you need, particularly B12.

Like Feline, I was very healthy throughout all my three pregnancies, and never suffered iron deficiency or anaemia, despite eating tofu and drinking soya milk. I mostly drank prune juice for iron. All the omni women in my ante-natal groups were on iron tablets. I never suffered any of the common late pregnancy complaints, and was able to continue working on my allotment right up till giving birth.

My children are now 19, 17 and 12, they're all exceptionally healthy and my boys haven't grown tits due to soya consumption.

I get very tired of people who try to say animal produce is in some way necessary for developing foetuses and children. It's just completely untrue, and vegan parents and children are living proof of this. Unfortunately, many medical professionals are woefully ill-informed on this subject, that's why it's so necessary for vegan mothers to thoroughly research nutritional requirements for themselves.

[englishvegoboi]

Its great to hear of cases where people have consumed unfermented soy products during pregnancy and have not become anaemic. Prune juice sounds like a great idea.

[cedarblue]

keep well and look after yourself.

best wishes to you and congrats on the pregnancy

[Artichoke47]

I didn't want to take this thread off-topic, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that ANY animal products are needed any time for a person, pregnant or not. Don't people read books anymore or know about nutrition? Let's educate ourselves before making such idiotic statements on a vegan message board.

[englishvegoboi]

I really admire your passion Artichoke47 but it is worth emphasising that being a vegan can be difficult at the best of times in certain parts of the world.

I do not think that any of the statements made in this thread have been idiotic and such statements may be seen as offensive and therefore not constructive to intelligent debate. No one on this thread has advocated eating animal products and it is clear that it is perfectly safe to be a vegan throughout pregnancy. However, there are sometimes other more complex issues, which can make this difficult to achieve.

We do not live in a vegan friendly society and in certain circumstances this can tip the balance away from veganism. I am an idealist and believe that one day rural Australia will be a vegan paradise but this can only be achieved by education and unity among us fellow vegans while not passing judgement on other like-minded individuals.

Love and respect!

[foxytina_69]

beans, lots of greens, veggies and fruits and whole grains sounds like a very nice diet to me too

congratulations on the pregnancy vegan drummer

[Artichoke47]

I certainly didn't mean for anyone to take offense to my posts, but I've heard inaccurate/stereotypical/unthinking statements referred to as "idiotic" many times (it was one of my dad's favorite words. ). Anyway, I was obviously offended by the statements I previously cited, as were John, Feline, and Koko. I would expect a site geared toward an anti-vegan movement to disburse such misinformation, not Vegan Forum members.

[cedarblue]

Anyway, I was obviously offended by the statements I previously cited, as were John, Feline, and Koko.

why take personal offence?
it is vegandrummers issue/problem. Yes this is a vegan forum for vegans and 'consuming animals' talk is not generally what we want here and im not avocating that we should be saying that its 'right' obviously but vegandrummer was simply sharing something going on in her life right now - it seemed to me that she is intensely aware how unpoular this decision may be among the members here but perhaps she felt it as such a burden she wanted to be honest and open about it.
its obvious by the title of the thread that the subject could provoke uncomfortable feelings. advice, help, constuctive critisism even have a place here. I dont condone vegandrummers decision but she is in a place i am not at the moment so i try to listen and let vegandrummer know that i am supporting her return to veganism but am also supporting her as a person in a different situation to me right now.

i guess if the thread was posted in the 'not a vegan' section it would have been in keeping with other subjects in the same vein.

I would expect a site geared toward an anti-vegan movement to disburse such misinformation, not Vegan Forum members.

what do you mean?


i do agree also that a vegan pregancy is not at all damaging to a developing foetus or the mother if a good, carefully planned nutritious diet is followed, with a little extra thought to supporting the extra life developing inside and the extra toll it can sometimes have upon the mothers body system.


thank you

[kokopelli]

We do not live in a vegan friendly society and in certain circumstances this can tip the balance away from veganism. I am an idealist and believe that one day rural Australia will be a vegan paradise but this can only be achieved by education and unity among us fellow vegans while not passing judgement on other like-minded individuals.

Vegan drummer isn't planning on settling down where she lives, she's just waiting to get back to the city.

But rural Australia won't be a vegan paradise if vegans find they can't live there due to lack of vegan supplies.

The only way around this is for vegans to set up their own supply chain.

Maybe there aren't enough like-minded people where vegan drummer lives to justify setting up a vegan food co-op, but maybe there are.

I live in rural Wales, which was once entirely dominated by cattle and sheep farmers, and virtually a vegan desert. But now there are wholefood shops in many small towns. The first people with alternative ideas to move here had to set up these shops and co-ops from scratch.

If vegans don't bother to cater for themselves, who will?

[John]

why take personal offence?
it is vegandrummers issue/problem.

I don't think that anyone took offence to Vegan Drummer's post. It was the posts of Vitamin B and Englishveggieboi which encouraged giving up veganism.

[kokopelli]

Actually I feel a bit bad about saying 'I get very tired of PEOPLE who try to say animal produce is somehow necessary..'

I don't really blame Vitamin B for thinking this, because there ARE scare stories in the media about vegan pregnancy, and there ARE prejudiced doctors who haven't taken the time to research vegan pregnancy and child rearing, but feel qualified to pontificate on the subject.

One important function of responsible vegan parents is that of educating the medical profession when we come into contact with them, and new vegans who may be unsure of the facts on this subject, and everyone else in our lives, for that matter.

[cedarblue]

I don't think that anyone took offence to Vegan Drummer's post. It was the posts of Vitamin B and Englishveggieboi which encouraged giving up veganism.

...then i misunderstood.

[Korn]

The pregnancy is a huge factor and it might be better for your baby that you get animal product into the babies growth system.

Have you read any of the literature on vegan/vegetarian pregnancy?

*I've heard horror stories about vegan and pregnancy.

Have you not heard horror stories of the health consequences of eating animal products?

[Korn]

Its great to hear of cases where people have consumed unfermented soy products during pregnancy and have not become anaemic. Prune juice sounds like a great idea.

'Cases' ???

[Korn]

Therefore it is much better for Vegan Drummer to eat small amounts of free-range organic meat when required.

I'm not at all judging Vegan Drummer, but I disagree with you, vegoboi. It's much better to to avoid animal products and still make sure you get the B12 and other nutrients you need. If people live in rural areas, the best solution IMHO is to buy enough of the hard-to-find stuff when visiting a town (or have it sent to you). If people have cravings for proteins or stuff containing certain nutrients, there are lots of vegan ways to deal with that. I know a little about dropping eating vegan food and getting back to it again, because I've done it a few times myself in the past. Judging others is waste of energy. But we don't need animal products, pregnant or not: we need to learn a little about nutrition - but this is the case for pregnant meat eaters as well.

[Korn]

Vegan products are not available - fake meats, etc. I can't even get TVP mince, chunks or slices.

Maybe you don't need fake meat/TVP?

Good luck with your pregnancy, dear drummer. I moved the thread to the Not A Vegan Yet-forum, please stick around! I'll write more later, but I recommend a visit to amazon.com for literature abut vegan/vegetarian pregnancy, and it might be a good idea to visit http://vegfamily.com, which is run by the writer of Raising Vegan Children in a Non-Vegan World.

[DoveInGreyClothing]

I don't want to judge, I live in the UK and there's a Holland and Barratt in the mall where I work, so I suppose I have it easy, although I still find eating out difficult.
I was relieved to see, after reading the title of this thread, that you are giving up temporarily due to difficult circumstances, and not that you don't see the point anymore. Do stick around and get back on the wagon asap!
I know you said you craved chicken, but would a better compromise- if you must eat animal products- maybe stay vegetarian and eat free range eggs instead? At least no animal has actually died. While I won't ever be eating eggs again myself, I see them as a lesser evil* than meat.
*not that I'm implying you're evil(!) just a turn of phrase

[englishvegoboi]

I'm not judging Vegan Drummer, but I totally disagree with you, vegoboi. It's much better to to avoid animal products and still make sure you get the B12 and other nutrients you need. If people live in rural areas, the best solution IMHO is to buy enough of the hard-to-find stuff when visiting a town (or have it sent to you).

I want to point out that I am not encouraging anyone to eat meat. I am very passionate about veganism. What I am trying to say is that I believe that it is preferable to eat some meat than to have a poor quality vegan diet when pregnant... in my opinion. I do not claim to have a definitive answer on this topic by any means. I am well, male for starters and cannot talk from experience. It pains me greatly to say something like this because I hate the thought of anyone eating meat. It also angers me that people are forced to choose between their ethics and the risk of compromising the health of their unborn child. As vegans we must continue to work toward making the world a vegan friendly place, because no one else is going to.

I am looking forward to the day when vegan pregnancies are the norm!!

[eve]

What I am trying to say is that I believe that it is preferable to eat some meat than to have a poor quality vegan diet when pregnant... in my opinion.

Why suggest that it is a choice between poor quality vegan food or meat? Surely even if the pregnant woman is eating meat, she must also eat veges? So what's wrong with plenty of different coloured veges, plus some beans or lentils etc? Some nuts? Why spoil her diet with meat? And why suggest that vegan pregnancies are not normal?

[englishvegoboi]

Why suggest that it is a choice between poor quality vegan food or meat? Surely even if the pregnant woman is eating meat, she must also eat veges? So what's wrong with plenty of different coloured veges, plus some beans or lentils etc? Some nuts? Why spoil her diet with meat? And why suggest that vegan pregnancies are not normal?

Sorry I meant to say that vegan pregnancies are not all that common not normal. I am hoping that one day soon they will be common.

If it is possible to get your hands on all of the above ingredients, I agree that it should be fine. Spoiling your diet with meat is an unfortunate thing to have to do.

[Korn]

What I am trying to say is that I believe that it is preferable to eat some meat than to have a poor quality vegan diet when pregnant... in my opinion.

Most people from in the Western world manage to drink tea from Ceylon and use cotton from India and soy sauce from Japan and use computers from USA... it is possible to send some mails or make some phone calls to get the ingredients we need, when/if they are not available. That's why I don't think we should compare eating meat ( = a poor quality diet) with eating a poor quality vegan diet. We should compare eating meat ( = a poor quality diet) with a vegan diet that is not of poor quality.

Re. the availability of certain products, I think most of the obstacles are in our heads. Even the most lazy, average, traditional thinking people have been using mail orders for decades. People who have access to internet have access to tons of information about being vegan and pregnant, and about where to order vegan products.

Both vegan and non-vegan pregant women often get certain cravings, and I think cravings often are directed to food that you associate with one or several nutrients you are missing. If a person in the major part of his lives are used to ie. get protein or B12 from chicken, and they need more protein or B12, they might experience cravings for chicken, even if they don't need chicken at all. A person who never have been eating chicken would probably never get any chicken cravings, because the association pattern hasn't been established. For some people switching to vegan food is easy, others need more time to 're-program' their own cravings, by making sure they get whatever they need from plants for a period of time - until the cravings are 're-programmed'; after that, when they need protein, they'll have cravings for protein rich plant based food, like peanuts or other legumes, instead of chicken.

After I first dropped animal products, I went back to eating them again before I finally ended up with only vegan food. Everybody understood why I dropped eating vegan when I did so, because I was living in a small town without a health food store, in a country with almost no vegans, and was 16 and living with my parents, there were no vegan literature around, and no internet. I'm very happy nobody judged me back then for my lack of strength to continue doing what I really wanted to do. Plesae don't get this wrong, but in addition to not judging, supporting people in what they really want to is also important - moreimportant, the way I see it. I'm all or both.

Some people believe that if they eat meat, dairy or traditional food in general, they are 'safe', but they are not. They think they'll get enough B12 if they only eat meat, but 39% of all meat eaters are in the low range of the B12 scale... and so on. Others believe that they're 'safe' – whatever they eat –*if they only take supplements. In reality, we are not doing anyone a favor by supporting an illusion that they're safe if they eat meat or supplements, are we?

In order for me to get vegan food, I must travel at least 240km to another town and the price of petrol here has risen to $1.20 per litre, making it almost impossible to get vegan foods regularly. On top of this, my car is 41 years old and cannot handle too much strain.

*Dear VeganDrummer, I know there's certain chance that you'll misinterpret the following as a 'better-than-thou'-attitude, but please understand that it's not. I'm also currently living in the middle-of-nowhere (you seem to live in outskirts-of-nowhere ! ), and in the beginning when I lived here, I didn't have a car. The solution was to buy larger quantities of the stuff I needed when I bought it, and have it sent to me. It is possible, and lots of the hard-to-find- products that some of us use a lot, can be stored for weeks and months....

Sadly, Australia is nothing like Britain and the USA - where there are vegans in abundance and a wide variety of vegan food is readily available.

Again, please don't get this wrong, but a major reason that that there are places where vegan stuff is hard to get, is exactly that vegans give in and go back to traditional food instead of insisting on getting what they need by special orders in their local stores, or by using/supporting health food stores that can send you what you need...

So for the past 11 months, this has been my diet -
non-organic fruit and vegetables, apart from my home grown strawberries and cherry tomatoes.
Brown rice, wholemeal pasta, bread, cereals, etc.
Tinned beans (dried ones are usually unavailable)
Once every three months, I had the opportunity to go to Adelaide and buy tofu and tempeh, but those stocks all too soon ran out. Most of the time I have to go without these and I'm stuck eating tinned beans.

Personally, on that diet, I'd have cravings as well - for protein. Dried beans, peas, lentils etc. can be stored for years....

Soy milk, soy yogurt, soy cheese. Even the soy cheese and soy yogurt are not always available, sometimes I have to go a month without.

I almost never use soy milk, and I never use soy cheese or soy yogurt. I have been living on a vegan diet for years without fake meats, and I have never tasted TVP. I know that some of hard-to-get-vegan-products issues have to do with money, but maybe you could consider getting a soy milk maker, and LOT of soy beans. By making your own soy milk/soy yogurt, you'll save a lot of money - and it's fast and easy - really! (You can even make your own tofu, but I haven't tried that yet.) We got our soy milk maker ( http://www.soyajoy.com/ ) by ordering it from USA (or was it Canada?) via internet.

Variation is important, not only regarding nutrition, but also regarding taste. I think the best investment a vegan can do is to experiment with recipes from areas that have long traditions with veg-food, like India, Mexico, Thailand.. and don't forget Lebanese food... hummus, falafel, tabulleh, baba ganoush and so on.

Again, good luck with your pregnancy, and don't take any risks.

Here are some more links re. vegan/pregnancy.

[drummer]

To everyone,

Firstly, I have not replied until now because I posted this thread in the main forum and did not realise it had been moved here until I asked Korn about it. And you are right, Korn, I think it's extra protein that I am craving, as well as extra fat. Protein needs during pregnancy increase by about 30%. So however much protein I was getting before I got pregnant is now not enough.
Plus, another strange thing has happened to me - I've completly gone off all beans exept lentils. I've gone off almost every vegetable -especially broccoli, onions and mushrooms. The only vegies I can stomach are lettuce, tomatoes, cucumber and potatoes.
I cannot force myself to eat these things or I'll vomit! These foods disgust me now, even the smell of them makes me retch. It's normal to go off foods you liked before you got pregnant.

I talked to the midwife today and she can talk to a dietitian for me by phone, because there is no dietitian here until June. I am a bit worried at the moment, having gone off so many foods. My blood pressure was checked and it was low, and I am concerned about my energy levels - sometimes I have to spend the whole day in bed because I do not have the energy! I am getting puffed out just by walking around (much slower than normal) and I feel dizzy at times. Plus, I've lost weight when I should be gaining weight!

Before I got pregnant I was so fit as you can tell by my username, I am a drummer. The midwife talked to me about being fit and excercising during pregnancy, and I'm sitting there thinking it's impossible just for me to walk for 5 minutes! I am being taken to see a doctor from another small town today (40km away) because of these concerns.
I have had my suspicions that perhaps I am carrying more than one baby, that's the only reason I could give as to why I'm feeling extra tired.

I do not feel that I can be vegan for now. As I have explained before, I will not be going from one extreme to the other - being vegan, then going to a full-blown meat eater, milk drinker egg eater. The only non-vegan things I have added to my diet are free-range chickens and a little bit of fish (not those high in mercury). I don't do dairy (YUCK!!), simple as that, I don't do eggs, and I don't dig the idea of eating mammals - to me that's like cannabalism because we are more closely related to other mammals than we are to birds or fish.

I cannot be a fanatic just for the sake of calling myself a 'vegan'. I have to do what my body tells me to do, and if that means not being a vegan for a while, so be it. I have to look after myself and the baby, I cannot ignore my cravings and instincts just so I can be a vegan. I don't feel healthy anymore just eating beans and soy for protein - and now I can't even stomach beans anyway.

I will not be changing my username for now because everyone already knows me as vegan drummer and I don't want to cause any confusion.

I thank those of you who have offered your support and kind words, I do really appreciate it! I appreciate it more so because I have no family - they disowned me. I can get support from my partner and all of you. I am very alone, but hearing that other people care, people who have never even met me, makes me feel better, I could cry!

Love,

semi-vegan drummer

[Mystic]

Drummer (I guess I can't call you vegan drummer anymore ). I wish you all the best with your pregnancy and I hope you keep in touch - especially when you move to Melbourne. Nothing is more important then your baby, and while I agree with people that your diet sounded adequate enough - YOU know what you have to do. You are still a great person.

Love Nat

[tails4wagging]

Keep posting gal,!.

I would suggest go with what the midwife suggests and by the sounds of it she is open to your dietary needs, which is great.

Yes, head for a dietition and seek advice. At the end of the day, you will have to look after your body for your babies sake, whichever way that is.

It is common for pregnant women to go off certain foods and feel very sick, so you are normal in that.

If you feel you get support here, I am sure korn will let you stay on as you sound as if you have little support.

basically, 'go with the flow' enjoy your pregnancy and dont feel guilty.

[puffin]

good luck vegan drummer, i hope you start to feel better soon Is there a history of twins in your family? x

[feline01]

All the best Pregnant Drummer . Don't worry about your eating-baby (or babies) will take what they need from you. Many pregnant women have difficulties eating throughout different periods of their pregnancy or during the entire thing. Worst thing to do is to fret about it. I puked up almost every meal for the first 5 months or so but my body obviously gave my babies the nutrition that they needed. Eat what you can when you can. Keep us informed of how you are doing!!