Vegans and pets

[thecatspajamas1]

My cats are family members- they are like the children. I don't ever use the word "pet" really, as I find it degrading. My cats are members of the family who just happen to not be human.

They are allowed to go in and out as they please. If they really wanted to go, they could. But they don't because they love their home and family.

I could see how in certain cases, having an animal companion could seem "unvegan". For example, some people keep their dog in a crate all day long! Or tied to a fence, etc.! Some people do not take good care of their animal companions who have come to rely on them. That would be immoral in my opinion.

But in general, having an animal companion is not unvegan. It is simply a mutual friendship and a sharing of space.

[skye]

I completely value the animals in my life. I think it is a nice ideal for all creatures to be free, however we have caused many animals to have a certain dependancy on us and I think that it would not be right or fair to abandon them. Those of us with animals have taken on a great responsibility. My cat is my friend and as important to me as my children, she is part of my family and her needs play an important part in decisions we make - where to live, how much we are away, visitors in our home etc. I have at times been ill for lenghly periods and have been completely isolated, Rose has been my constant.

I personally would never buy an animal from a breeder or a pet store, I do not support breeding animals for food or companionship. I do however strongly support animal rescue missions, farm sanctuarys etc. I really like the idea of every living creature living free, somehow I think that we would need a transitional plan to achieve this.

Its really nice to see others reflecting so much on their choices and how they impact others. You all have caused me to reflect a great deal more on how I CHOOSE to live.

[sk8erboi]

Hey -- not trying to create a fuss here. Those little pets are very cute indeed & extremely lovable.

When I went vegan 11 years ago, I decided that after all my fish naturally died, I would give up all pets. So with the thinking that perhaps animals best belong in nature, and not in a person's house watching TV -- what do you think?

Is it okay if (1) you have the pet sterilized so we don't bring more domesticated animals into the world and (2) feed the pet a vegan diet?

One issue I'm grappling with is that I want to find a vegan girlfriend, but there are so few vegans, and it seems that most of them love animals so much that they have or want to have a dog or cat. Is there a particular special name for a vegan like me that is pet-free?

And no -- I'm not a dog or cat hater. I absolutely love all living beings. I just prefer to see them in nature.

[Mr Flibble]

There's existing threads on the topic, but in sumary a large percentage of vegans don't keep pets of those that do the majority are rescued animals. The pet trade isn't nice or particularly vegan.

[ConsciousCuisine]

I share my home with a cat that came to me, many years ago because the family it stayed with needed to find a good home for her and my Daughter wanted to have an animal friend live with us and join our family. Otherwise, I would not have gone looking for an animal to join us.

Someday I hope to have an animal sanctuary where rescued pets that would otherwise be killed would be able to live free from harm on a great stretch of land where they can play and be, safely in nature.

I will not seek out "pets" and if my feline friend passes, I will be sad and without animal companionship, until my sanctuary can open.

[Troub]

adopt a farm rescued pig. or other rescued animal.




but i know where your coming from. I dont know how I feel about companion animals. If you have a pet and feed it non-vegan food, your supporting companies to kill animals. What about say, a bird? A natural vegan animal? Is that supporting the captivity of a living creature though? I can see both sides of the argument well, and can't make up my mind on what to think.

I don't have a pet of my own no. Well... a cockatiel that I left at my mothers when i moved out. He would sit on the edge of my bowl and eat the cereal/salad/etc that i was eating.

awww i miss him now lol.

[Tigerlily]

I share my home with a cat that came to me, many years ago because the family it stayed with needed to find a good home for her and my Daughter wanted to have an animal friend live with us and join our family. Otherwise, I would not have gone looking for an animal to join us.

Someday I hope to have an animal sanctuary where rescued pets that would otherwise be killed would be able to live free from harm on a great stretch of land where they can play and be, safely in nature.

I will not seek out "pets" and if my feline friend passes, I will be sad and without animal companionship, until my sanctuary can open.

I like that idea too.

I kind of like the idea of opening up my own alternative school with a farm sanctuary with it. The kids help out, learn about compassion, about the animals, etc.

[Jane M]

Maybe I am going about this all wrong but...I kind of feel an obligation to rescue animals. If I have the resources to take one in I do. Otherwise I try to find a sanctuary or another home. In a way I feel that by giving them a safe home and loving them is me in a small way easing the some suffering in the world.

[kriz]

To share your home with rescued animals is absolutely vegan in my view - but to go out and buy a caged bird form a pet store is not.

[kriz]

...I kind of feel an obligation to rescue animals.

Me too.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Maybe I am going about this all wrong but...I kind of feel an obligation to rescue animals. If I have the resources to take one in I do. Otherwise I try to find a sanctuary or another home. In a way I feel that by giving them a safe home and loving them is me in a small way easing the some suffering in the world.

I think what you are doing is noble...if I had a home, a yard/land of any kind and not just a small city apartment, I would be doing more like what you are

[Pilaf]

I'm animal companion-free at the moment. I believe from now on, I'll only adopt rescued animals as suggested in this thread, if any at all.

[alekolu]

I've had animal companions for most of my life, but I've never paid money for one, and I never will. I pretty much agree with Jane M... I think that rescuing animals is a very positive way to ease even the tiniest bit of suffering in the world.

However, animal rescue is not without its faults. There are far too many people who just wake up one morning and think, "aww, kitties/puppies/bunnies are cute, I think I'll adopt one today." So they go out and adopt one (usually from a farm or a family who didn't have their pets fixed, so they ended up with babies that they couldn't take care of, because rescue organizations are usually more selective in who they let have animals) with no idea of how to take care of an animal. They end up getting sick of the animal and it gets neglected and abused. I've seen this so many times, and it's completely disgusting. So I guess, in this sense, I would like to see the practice of keeping animals become less popular or harder to do, to keep people like this from abusing animals. But it's because of animal rescue that my cats are alive today... if I hadn't adopted my oldest cat when I was in high school, she probably would have been killed by dogs like all of her siblings. I like the idea of these animals finishing out their lives in loving homes better than the idea of leaving them to be euthanized or to sit in tiny cages in rescue shelters.

[Hemlock]

All my cats are rescue cats. Some of them are a bit strange though

[RedWellies]

At the moment, due to my circumstances, I do not have any in-house "pets". As soon as I can, though, I will have rescue dogs. I understand why some people think all animals belong in the wild but this is not realistic for animals like dogs and cats in today's society. I would not want to see people put off rescuing an animal for "ethics". As far as I'm concerned, I became a vegan so that I did not contribute to animal suffering. In looking after unwanted and badly treated animals, "pet-owners" are relieving some of this suffering.

[Nadine]

I have always lived with animals and would hate to be without their companionship, if there were no animals to rescue I would not buy an animal from the pet trade.
And I take care about what pet food products I buy them.
My cats & hens are rescued & I feel lucky to have the resources to offer them a good life and knowing that they will live out their days comfortably & naturally.

[sugarmouse]

i have furry companians n i love them.but none of them were bought bar one, n she was a guinea pig..i had to buy as someone had just dumped another one on me, and i didnt want him to be lonely.knowing ihad 3 days 12 hour work ahead of me and no one who couldhelp, i cut my losses and bought one from a pet shop.not happy i did it, but i know they hate living alone.i HATE petshops n everyone who knows me knows i take in unwanted animals.

[fakepaperdoll]

I have my babies. two rabbits that were both from rescues they are very happy and i don't keep them in a cage because i feel guilty.

I have two hamsters that someone was (horrible people)starving as well, they are so happy now and have a big play area.

I also have three chinchillas that someone was going to throw out, they would have died and I wouldn't have been able to live with the guilt of knowing that.

for somereason i end up with unwanted animals because the people that ask me know i won't say no!

My parents have three cats that we got from cats protection leauge.

I do hate the idea of pets and the word pet is horrible. In a perfect world noone would have pets all the animals would be left in their natural envrionment. I love seeing rabbits running around in fields in their natural environment. It saddens me so much when i go in pet shops and see rabbits but unfortantly its how it is. It makes me even more mad that the statistics are 1/5 rabbits end up in a rescue.

I will always keep animals but they will be from rescues and I will do all that i can to make sure they are happy.

[KarmaGirl]

My dogs came from pet stores......but not in a traditional way. Do you know what happens to puppies that don't sell after so many weeks? They have them put down. They don't even put them up for adoption at a humane society because it might hurt their business. We got out dogs for almost nothing, and have given them loving homes. If we didn't, they would be dead. We were the shops "call me before you put that dog down" people, until we ended up with 4 dogs, then we didn't have any more space to put them. I am sure that some people would say that we were supporting the puppy mills, but it's not the dogs fault that this is happening to them.

My dogs are part of our family. One died a few months ago, and we are still grieving. My husband can't talk about him without crying. I see no difference between adopting a dog and adopting a child. They both need warm, loving homes that provide them good food and stability. Almost all of my dogs have health problems from the way that they were treated as puppies. A lot of people would have had them put down due to the cost of caring for them. But, we don't. We nurture them and try to give them the best life possible. To me, that is as much as we can do. If everyone cared so deeply for animals, we wouldn't have the problems that we do.

[Jane M]

My dogs came from pet stores......but not in a traditional way. Do you know what happens to puppies that don't sell after so many weeks? They have them put down. They don't even put them up for adoption at a humane society because it might hurt their business. .

Breeders do something similar. My father rescued a dachshound puppy and a Siamese cat from different breeders. They were both going to be put down because their markings were not up to their breeds standards. He had to do some talking and agree to have them neutered (which he would have done anyway). There was nothing wrong with the animals except for some unusual markings...what a thing to take a life for.

[Cumin]

My dogs are part of our family. One died a few months ago, and we are still grieving. My husband can't talk about him without crying. I see no difference between adopting a dog and adopting a child. They both need warm, loving homes that provide them good food and stability. Almost all of my dogs have health problems from the way that they were treated as puppies. A lot of people would have had them put down due to the cost of caring for them. But, we don't. We nurture them and try to give them the best life possible. To me, that is as much as we can do. If everyone cared so deeply for animals, we wouldn't have the problems that we do.

Well said. To do all we can is the best that we can do.

[KarmaGirl]

Breeders do something similar. My father rescued a dachshound puppy and a Siamese cat from different breeders. They were both going to be put down because their markings were not up to their breeds standards. He had to do some talking and agree to have them neutered (which he would have done anyway). There was nothing wrong with the animals except for some unusual markings...what a thing to take a life for.

Doesn't that make you sick? I can't imagine considering an animal "worth" less because they didn't fit some standard. It just saddens me. I have had all my dogs neutered and would never think of breeding animals ever. It's just a sick and twisted industry. My parents ended up with a Welsh Corgi in the same fashion- her ears wouldn't come up, so the breeder couldn't sell her. So, my parents bought her for the cost of the shots and worming that they had given her. A few weeks later, guess what? Her ears perked up. She was one of the best dogs I have ever known. Loved people and animals of all sorts and always looked like she was laughing. I sure miss her.

[kriz]

Sorry.

[kriz]

If I was single today and looking for a partner, he would definietely have to consider my dog as a part of the family. Otherwise, no thank you!

[treehugga]

I don't believe in buying pets from pet shops or breeders either. I think if you have to have them - save their lives from a shelter etc.

I don't really believe in 'owning' animals anymore and when my current family dies I won't replace them. I think we do to much buying of pets and turning them into 'sub humans'. Eg: Constantly shampooing dogs to smell pretty, when naturally they like to roll in poo. Putting little suits on animals and pulling them along on a leed as their only form of exercise. Keeping pets in cages including rabbits and guinea pigs - what fun that must be! Saddling up a horse and making it run around and around in a circle . I won't continue, I think my point is clear enough.

[Kumem]

I don't believe in buying pets from pet shops or breeders either. I think if you have to have them - save their lives from a shelter etc.

I don't really believe in 'owning' animals anymore and when my current family dies I won't replace them. I think we do to much buying of pets and turning them into 'sub humans'. Eg: Constantly shampooing dogs to smell pretty, when naturally they like to roll in poo. Putting little suits on animals and pulling them along on a leed as their only form of exercise. Keeping pets in cages including rabbits and guinea pigs - what fun that must be! Saddling up a horse and making it run around and around in a circle . I won't continue, I think my point is clear enough.

I have toyed with the same idea - not owning pets. However, I love being around them and whilst there are still animals in shelters, that need taking care of, I will take them in. I completely agree with your comments relating to dressing up pets and the exercise thing. However, most dogs in the UK get to run off their lead pretty much anywhere. As long as the owner is careful the dog gets the exercise that they need. I am thinking of my parents who are massively into hiking and hill walking. They go for weeks away and walk 20 miles a day with their dog and he loves it.

[treehugga]

Some people are more intuitive and caring than others. I think most vegans would be good with animals.

It is awful, those poor creatures in shelters etc.

Society has a lot to answer for.

[lauren rae]

Domestic animals in shelters, whether humane ones or otherwise, are hardly living a good, happy and psychologically or physically healthy life.
These are unwanted and unloved domestic animals. Do you think it is "veganly" or compassionate that we should not take them out of that situation and give them a loving home?

I used to buy pure-breed animals, but lately I've been getting cats from shelters. My baby right now came the SCPA and it the best cat in probably, oh, I'd say the whole world. Most loving, friendly, and playful cat. My friend rescued his dog from the race track. Things like that I think are very "veganish." I think how you care for your animals is what's important. My dogs have free-range of over 20 acres, same with the cats at my parent's house. My mom's horses act like her dogs (they come when you call them and you can give them huge hugs and they're just as happy as can be) and live in better conditions now than where they came from. Okay...so maybe our horses are four of the most spoiled in ohio. Our animals are obviously very happy to be part of our family and we do everything we can to insure them the best and longest life possible (my dogs actually get more presents for christmas than I do!). Now, if you're keeping a pet and not taking care of that, that's wrong. I've had a lot of vegan friends keeps too many cats for their same apartments or did not have enough money to insure proper care if they got sick - that's just irresponsible. I think it's wrong, or at least not vegan to keep caged animals either. I use to have rabbits and they weren't happy. Same with lizards or hamsters.

So i think bottem line, if you treat your animals like you would your children, that's vegan. I think having a connection with an animal is very natural and something we should strive for. Having a cat that sleeps on my head at night makes me feel more connected to the world beyond the human realm.

[Purity]

It amazes me to think that there are people around who think cats would be better off on the streets than in a loving home. A cat on the street would be half starved due to not being able to find food, be suseptible to numerous parasites including fleas, ticks, lice, tapeworm, heartworm, roundworm and ringworm, be susceptible to diseases such a feline lukemia, feline aids and cat flu, not to mention the dangers of cars, cruel people, poisons, wild (as in not domesticated) animals, and other 'urban' dangers (broken glass, oil, petrol, antifreeze).

In an ideal world, all animals would live in their natural habitat. But, some animals have no natural habitat due to centuries of domestication by humans. In these circumstances, we have an obligation to care for them.

As for cats only staying where there is food, why then do my cats wake me up with purrs and cuddles when there is already food available? Why do they bother snuggling up with me when they've just been fed?

My cats were rescued from what would have been a neglected life, and I'm pretty darn sure they're happy. Me, I'm happy that they're in my life too

[Hemlock]

My feral cat Shadow who just died gave me 17 years of totally devoted, unconditional love and was overjoyed to see me every single day. We never had a single row or moment of unhappiness together.
I wish I could say that about humans I have known. Shadow was pretty intolerant of other cats too.
We supported each other through life's ups and downs, can't get much better than that He benefitted from our relationship as much as I did. He would have been dead many years ago if he'd stayed wild and would probably died of the injuries he constantly sustained from beating up other cats
I can see his grave in the garden from here, I like to think he is still around!

[Purity]

Hemlock that's lovely

I fail to see how a mutual relationship can be exploitation. Unless you also also think that the cats are exploiting us too

[KarmaGirl]

So i think bottem line, if you treat your animals like you would your children, that's vegan.

I agree with that. The animals that live with me are part of our family. My husband and I have even worked out a "fire escape" plan to insure that the dogs would get out with us.

Unfortunately, some animals have been bred by humans to be domestic. Most wild dogs and cats live very short lives, and fight to survive during that time. Compare that to animals like the ones who live with me who get quality food, a large fenced in yard that they can run in and stay safe, a warm bed, fresh water and medical care, it seems like the house animals have a better life. And, that is not even to mention the love that they get from the humans they keep (I'm pretty sure that the animals have control in my house.) Just last night I was sitting on the couch with my human family and each of us had a dog on our lap that we were snuggling with and petting. Life doesn't get any better than that!

[Mr Flibble]

So i think bottem line, if you treat your animals like you would your children, that's vegan.

'Your animals' signifies ownership of another life, which is not vegan. If we are to believe that humans are animals then there is no difference between owning a human to owning a non human animal.

Personally I don't believe that raising animals in an environment other than that of their natural one or one where they are able to act out all of their instincts (including mating, which is basically the main thing which all animals (humans included) strive for) can be considered vegan. Nor is the concept of projecting human desires and lifestyles onto animals, or attempting to gauge their happiness levels and use it in defense. I find the very concept of treating a non human animal like a human child disturbing, almost as much as the double standards that some vegans apply to 'pets' that they do not to 'farm animals'.

Whilst I understand that rescued animals fall into a special category (i.e. they were not bred for their owners and would otherwise be abused or left for dead in an environment they do not instinctively know how to survive in), to be honest I find the parading of captive animals through pictures, stories etc on the forum by their owners slightly in bad taste (such as this thread). Cute they may be, but still captive (whether physically or mentally) and to me that is at odds with vegan ethics.

[Jane M]

Mr. Fibble with all due respect I find that I need to disagree. Many animals (not just cats and dogs) have been domesticated for so long that chances of their survival is minimal in the wild. As for "wild" as in "wilderness" much of that has been infringed on also. Are you saying that all cats and dogs should be let free? And if so just how are they to fend for themselves?

As for animal companions sometimes being referred to as 'my animals' that is more a matter of terminology to a lot of us. We find we show as much care and affection for our animal companions as some do for their children. I think we know the difference between an animal and a human though.

It would be great if it were a perfect world and no animal was ever domesticated but left free to roam. That wilderness was left alone so there was plenty of space. But we do not.

[Mr Flibble]

Are you saying that all cats and dogs should be let free? And if so just how are they to fend for themselves?

not at all, and hence the wording in my post and final paragraph. The same applies to farm animals. I've also posted a couple of lengthy posts in a similar thread over the weekend saying that I think that breeding is the issue, that domesticated animals should no longer be bred. Existing ones are another matter.

I think we know the difference between an animal and a human though.

My post was not aimed at any specific person or a group. Whilst you personally may know that difference I'm unsure as to who you refer to as we.

It would be great if it were a perfect world and no animal was ever domesticated but left free to roam. That wilderness was left alone so there was plenty of space. But we do not.

Absolutely.

[Jane M]

Thank you for clarifying. I still think that the links such as the one you find in bad taste are helpful for those of us caring for rescued animals though. And yes I am extremely biased in thinking mine are the cutest and smartest and I like to brag a bit about them.

[Seaside]

'Your animals' signifies ownership of another life, which is not vegan. If we are to believe that humans are animals then there is no difference between owning a human to owning a non human animal.

When I talk or write about "my" dad, or "my" brother, or "my" stepmom, how else should I refer to them to signify that they are part of "my" family and not someone else's? Does this signify that I "own" my family when referring to them in this way? How many people want to wade through "the animals who live with me" as opposed to "my" every time I want to mention the "members of my non-human family"?

[KarmaGirl]

'
Personally I don't believe that raising animals in an environment other than that of their natural one or one where they are able to act out all of their instincts (including mating, which is basically the main thing which all animals (humans included) strive for) can be considered vegan. .............Cute they may be, but still captive (whether physically or mentally) and to me that is at odds with vegan ethics.

I have to politely disagree. How many natural habitats are left for animals? They have had to learn to survive around the humans. Living in a "natural" habitat isn't all its cracked up to be. Have you seen what happens when a fox stumbles on a nest of bunnies? Have you seen what most stray dogs look like or realize what a short life stray cats live? How is that better?

By your ideal, having children is not vegan. "My" daughter is under the same care that my pets are. I don't let her do as she pleases. Heck, I even buy her food, so she doesn't get that choice! Of course, I also love and nurture her like I do my animals. We are one big family. My dogs running to great me when I get home and wagging their tails until I get down on the floor and pet them shows me that they are happy. Knowing that they are getting medical care (like for a bladder infection, which could kill a dog in their "natural" habitat) makes me think that I am giving them a good quality of life. Having them jump up on my lap and snuggle with me makes me think that they love me as much as I love them. Knowing that I can let them out the door and they don't run away makes me think that my home is also their home. I see nothing wrong with loving an animal and sharing your home with them.

I live in the country and see the horrors that animals live through, and I am not talking about just farm animals. The "wild" is not all it's cracked up to be.

[Mr Flibble]

They have had to learn to survive around the humans.

I wouldn't call selective breeding learning

Living in a "natural" habitat isn't all its cracked up to be. Have you seen what happens when a fox stumbles on a nest of bunnies? Have you seen what most stray dogs look like or realize what a short life stray cats live?

Yes.

How is that better?

I can only apply the same standards to others that I wish for myself. I personally am extremely greatful to live in a society that is (relatively) free, where I can make my own choices and decisions about things that are important to me, such as where to live, how to acquire my food, who to mate with etc. Humans often say they are beyond instinct, but these are things which are instinctively important to me and what I spend a vast amount of my life doing/working towards. Assuming that humans are animals and other animals have the same kind of desires that I do, being free is preferable over being in a simulated environment. I don't want personally to have key areas of my life such as these controlled by someone else all my life, so i can only assume that others do not either. It's very possible that non human animals don't experience the world at all like humans do, but it's also possible that I'm the only human who experiences the world like I do. Whilst there's any doubt though I aim to treat others the way I want to be, which to me is the basis of veganism.

By your ideal, having children is not vegan.

Not at all. By my ideal children are different to adults - whatever their species. Parents have a responsibility to look after/control their offspring whilst they are developing and maturing. However, by my ideal it is unvegean to apply these same controls over a child once they are an adult. Treating your 40 year old child like a 5 year old and never letting them 'grow up' or explore their instincts is abuse.

[Jane M]

Nor is the concept of projecting human desires and lifestyles onto animals, or attempting to gauge their happiness levels and use it in defense.

Excuse me if I misunderstand but doesn't your arquement hinge on what you are projecting?

[RedWellies]

I can only apply the same standards to others that I wish for myself. I personally am extremely greatful to live in a society that is (relatively) free, where I can make my own choices and decisions about things that are important to me, such as where to live, how to acquire my food, who to mate with etc.

I think it's great that you feel like that (I wish more people did!). However, personally I don't think animals think like we do about these issues. Mating is not a choice available to all animals. For example, only the Alpha-female wolf in the pack gets to mate with the male. The other female wolves take on the role of "aunties". Where to live is also not a free choice for some animals. Only the strongest males (or in some cases, females) hold the best territory. The others have to fight for their bit and if their area is not good enough, they are less successful, don't breed and possibly die.

Acquiring food is also different for animals. Many predators are opportunists and will steal food from one another. There is no guilt, just survival of the fittest. They are also often "lazy" and prefer an easy meal. They do not care who or what provides it.

My point is that in my opinion we can't project how we want to live onto animals. Obviously there are a lot of unhappy "pets" out there but I have no doubt that there are also many who are content, with full stomachs, a warm place to sleep and companionship.

[KarmaGirl]

Assuming that humans are animals and other animals have the same kind of desires that I do, being free is preferable over being in a simulated environment.

That's a lot of assuming. And, what is the natural environment for a human animal? Don't we actually live in a simulated environment? Sure, you could move to another part of the world, but that isn't natural. You live in a house, but that is only because we evolved. Who is to say that domesticated animals haven't evolved to the point of living in houses? And, what is that "natural" environment for a miniature dachshund?

[kriz]

Imagine a chihuaua trying to live by 'the survival of the fittest' in a jungle of other dogs and wild animals. Most of the human created breeds are not able to survive on their own no matter what.

[Mr Flibble]

Erk! tis late so i shall reply to red wellies, karmagirl and jane m properly tomorrow when I'm more awake

Most of the human created breeds are not able to survive on their own no matter what.

I couldn't agree more, which is why we need to stop breeding them. We played god and created them, now it's time to undo our dirty work. At no point have i suggested in this or any threads that domesticated animals should be released 'to the wild'.

[kriz]

Good Mr. Flibble.

[Seaside]

That's a lot of assuming. And, what is the natural environment for a human animal? Don't we actually live in a simulated environment? Sure, you could move to another part of the world, but that isn't natural. You live in a house, but that is only because we evolved. Who is to say that domesticated animals haven't evolved to the point of living in houses? And, what is that "natural" environment for a miniature dachshund?

Exactly. KarmaGirl. "Natural" hardly applies to the world we live in now. What does though, is the word "niche." Humans are creating niches, and whoever is able to moves in on these niches and uses them as best they can. Where I live, people like green grass. So do geese. So the geese move in and thrive, the people get pissed at all the goose poop, and I say "You made the niche! Get rid of it, and the geese will leave."

Our houses and gardens are proving to be ideal niches for all kinds of animals. Look at how closely we have lived for centuries with rats, mice, lice, ants, fleas, roaches, bedbugs, racoons, pigeons, squirrels, swallows, slugs, snails, rabbits, hedgehogs, etc., etc. Why are dogs and cats any different? Because we somehow forced our will upon them and made them this way?

Ancient people obviously provided a niche by the way they lived that wild dogs somehow were able to fill, and we have evolved together. Nothing lives in isolation. Wherever you find a pride of lions, there are other animals on the periphery surviving alongside, waiting to scavenge what they can from the kill, and tolerated by the lions because they do not directly compete for the same resources. Are the lions forcing the hyenas and buzzards to hang around to clean up their messes through the force of their will? I doubt it. This is a simpler example of what I am talking about than the relationship between humans and domesticated animals. But the relationship between people and dogs has its origin long before humans were capable of understanding the ethics involved in parasitism, commensalism, mutualism, or symbiosis (if there are any). Dogs have evolved to require human companionship if they are to thrive to the fullest extent they are entitled to. If it were completely one-sided, dogs would not have survived the "domestication" process, and would have stayed wild. It isn't the fault of the dog that he is able to adapt to a human-created niche, any more than it is the fault of the pigeons who thrive in cities or the roaches who thrive in kitchens. So why question a dog's right to continue as a species? Because some people think they are frankenstinian creations? Just because we can warp a little morphology doesn't make us God, and it doesn't entitle us to decide whether the dog deserves to live or die, or go extinct.

[Peas'nHominy]

Danny is a black lab. I adopted him from a rescue shelter. He was living with a foster family. They told me his story -- very sad. Basically, he had required stitches, and I think some surgery, recovery time. But, he's healthy now.

A cat showed up at my house one day and wouldn't leave. I felt so sorry for him -- we ended up taking him to the vet, giving him food and water and such. He's free to leave anytime he wants, but he chooses to stay. I was not wanting to "have" a cat, but apparantly he's adopted me.

Now a kitten has showed up at my door step, and he will not leave either. I don't know his age of course, but he is pretty little and still has that kitten-sounding meow...more like a meuuu. (I wonder where the others from the litter are....?)

[Jane M]

Sounds like the animals have decided that you keep a good home!

My cats are both rescued but not from the Humane Society. One was so badly starved (9 months old and only weighed just under 3lbs) that her bones were starting to break through her skin. The vet didn't think she would survive but agreed to work with me. It took over a $1000 of paid medicine and special foods and the vet chipped in the rest for free but now she is a healthy little hairball. It amazes me how loving and trusting she can be.

The other I took in because she has special needs and the original owner didn't want to mess with them. She will be on special foods for the rest of her life and require extra attention. She is worth all the fuss though. When I was sick she refused to leave my side and was my little nurse!

Rescuing animals is never a completely selfless act. At least not for me. I always feel like they are giving me so much in return.

[RedWellies]

As I understood it, Mr. Flibble was not against rescuing animals, just breeding more of them.

[Jane M]

True, my comments on my rescued companions had nothing to do with Mr. Fibbles remarks about rescuing. They were sharing with the post before me.

Still I think sharing our experiences concerning rescuing is helpful. And in a way may inspire others to consider a rescued animal rather than a 'pure breed'.