Insects: In your opinion, is what we do wrong?

[elateridae]

I'm a graduate student in entomology, and naturally we use insects in our work. Many of us are also avid collectors.

So, basically, I'm curious as to whether vegans consider what we do cruel or immoral or whatever. Do vegans eat insects? What are vegan views on things like Bt corn?

[Artichoke47]

Vegans don't eat animal products, so no, vegans don't eat insects; vegans also do not use items, such as clothing and personal care products, that exploit and/or harm animals, such as silk and beeswax-containing lip balms.

As to your "wrong" question, I don't know how to answer that, except to say that I am against use of animals, including slavery (i.e., battery cages, cow's milk machines, et cetera), murder, experimentation, and all other forms of torture that I might be neglecting to mention.

In your view, or to ask a converse question, is it somehow "right" to subject other beings to being taken out of their natural environment and possibly eaten?

[elateridae]

You don't even use insect products? Interesting. What aspects of rearing insects for things like silk and honey do you find objectionable? Were you aware that bees are raised not only for the things they make but also for their superior ability to pollinate crops?

[EcoTribalVegan]

They could do that naturally...they don't have to be confined to do that.

[elateridae]

No. People ship honeybees around the country so they may be in the places where they are most needed. Also, natural populations of honeybees are declining due to mite infestations. We just had a bee specialist give a seminar on this on Tuesday.

[Seaside]

I love insects. I love biology. I would have loved to have been a biologist, except for the dissection. I'm not squeamish, and I could have done it, I just thought it was wrong, and it made me sad, too. I chose physics and chemistry in high school, and geology in college, with my thesis done on micropalaeontology. Fossils were the closest I was willing to get to studying something biological.

I understand that much of the knowledge we have today comes from animal research, and it is a dilemma because the knowledge is valuable; vegans as well as non-vegans benefit from it. However, so much can be learned today from computer models that I think it is time to stop using live creatures for research. I have a very strong sense of what is right and wrong for me, which I do not usually apply to others because it serves no practical purpose; for example, if I told you you were wrong to be doing what you are doing, would it stop you or just make you angry? I do very much wish that you would find another way to learn what you are learning. Evolution is an ongoing process for humans as well as other creatures.

[elateridae]

I'm interested in these other ways of conducting research that you suggest. It doesn't make me angry that others may think my work is wrong. I'm just a very curious person, and I always want to know the reasoning behind opinions different from my own.

[snivelingchild]

My personal view, which I think is very common, is that it is exploitation and using an insect for our own means instead of letting them live out their natural lives. Silk worms are boiled alive in their cocoons (once I read in a magazine that silk was gotton by gently 'unwinding' the cocoons! I was oing to write them a letter, but never got around to it. There are also plenty of things most people don't immediately recongize in the keeping of bees for honey/wax, etc. First, almost all their honey (which I'm sure you are aware is their food source) is taken away and replaced with cheap sugars. Since they are kept in artificial boxes, many bees are crushed when a beekeeper opens and closes parts of the hive. It is also much cheaper to kill the bugs and buy new ones each year instead of keeping them during the winter, so this is a widely done practice. These are just a few points, and there is a very nice site about honey here:
http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm
I find that site most useful for explaining to non-vegans.

[eve]

Nowadays bees are just like other factory-farmed animals, and whilst they can fly, they are also subject to many cruelties. Drones often have their wings clipped to prevent escape so their sperm can be extracted and artificially inseminated into the queen bees. After a couple of years as the queen's egg-laying abilities decline, they are often killed as it is cheaper to buy new bee stock.

Animals used in experiments, come from sources such as shelters, and after the experiements, cats and dogs finally get crammed into gas chambers. Dissection is just plain offensive to humans and nonhumans.

[spo]

Dear elateridae:
Why do say "we"? You are not a vegan, yet. If and when you do start to practice veganism, you will see why it is inconsistent with the vegan lifestyle to endorse or participate in animal experimentation.

Before you delve into these vegan matters, I suggest that you do some reading. Peter Singer's Animal Liberation is a good place to start. Check out PETA and Anti-Vivisection societies' literature. These will explain why you cannot be a vegan, and still perform animal research, including research on insects.

Additionally, I would like to refer you to the comments that I posted in the thread: "How many of you who are opposed to animal research are actually scientists? Of this number, how many have conducted research on animals?
This thread, here, is repetitive and again, indicates that you really have no good grasp on what is it to be "a vegan"
First, research the definition of veganism, and then come back with questions. This way you will not upset or needlessly waste the time of vegans who understand and live by their ethics.

I am sorry if I appear harsh, but to me, these do seem to be relevant comments. This section, in the forum, is designed for people who are seriously contemplating a vegan lifestyle; and that implies, to me, that one has, at least, a basic understanding of what you are contemplating.
spo

[Artichoke47]

I see my question hasn't been answered; there's a reason for that one.

[spo]

Hi, Artichoke-
Please help me out, here: What do you think these two threads, posted by elateridae, are really about? I fell into the trap of answering her question seriously, in the other thread. I did not see this thread, and was confused by her obvious "cluelessness". So, what are your thoughts on this?
Thanks
spo

[Artichoke47]

Someone trying to act as if they know more than we; trying to find a flaw with veganism (as most people who know it's the ethical thing to do will try to justify in some way); wasting time; interested in what these hippies have to say. I don't know and I don't care, really. My ethics are in place and no animal testers, tortures, experimenters, "scientists" (if they can call themselves that) will change my mind.

[Mozbee]

Another good source of information is The Vegan Society website.
Put yourself into their legs would you want to be taken from your home by complete strangers (aliens), taken to a alien enviroment and then used for experiments (proceedures) with no consultation or forewarning. Perhaps have limbs removed, be tortured, be artificially inseminated...who knows what, but if it sounds cruel, it is cruel whether the target is insect, reptile, mammal or human.

[spo]

Someone trying to act as if they know more than we; trying to find a flaw with veganism (as most people who know it's the ethical thing to do will try to justify in some way); wasting time; interested in what these hippies have to say. I don't know and I don't care, really. My ethics are in place and no animal testers, tortures, experimenters, "scientists" (if they can call themselves that) will change my mind.

Thanks so very much, Artichoke!!
That was my take on this business, too.
spo

[EcoTribalVegan]

No. People ship honeybees around the country so they may be in the places where they are most needed. Also, natural populations of honeybees are declining due to mite infestations. We just had a bee specialist give a seminar on this on Tuesday.

Exactly...we're trans-migrating them! Why do we need to do that? We're just screwing up natural ecosystems.

[elateridae]

I'm not entirely sure what I expected here, but it certainly wasn't this. I asked some very simple questions and was answered with insults. You know nothing about me, other than that I am a graduate student in entomology. Because I use insects in my work you assume that I must be torturing them.

The scientists I have met are people who are in the field because of an innate curiosity about the world and a desire to improve it. They aren't monsters, they're people who work towards making your life better. You benefit from the agricultural research labs like mine conduct, yet you do not hesitate to condemn us.

I'm still wondering what the general position on Bt corn and other transgenics is.

Of course, I'm fully expecting this post to be blocked.

[EcoTribalVegan]

Do you catch the insects when they're dead when you collect them? When you transmigrate bees to produce more fertile fields that's exploiting them. Because when I think collect I think of either dead behind glass, or exploiting them. But I tried not to insult you. If I did I apologize, as you did nothing to insult me.

[DianeVegan]

I'm not entirely sure what I expected here, but it certainly wasn't this. I asked some very simple questions and was answered with insults. You know nothing about me, other than that I am a graduate student in entomology. Because I use insects in my work you assume that I must be torturing them.

The scientists I have met are people who are in the field because of an innate curiosity about the world and a desire to improve it. They aren't monsters, they're people who work towards making your life better. You benefit from the agricultural research labs like mine conduct, yet you do not hesitate to condemn us.

I'm still wondering what the general position on Bt corn and other transgenics is.

Of course, I'm fully expecting this post to be blocked.

I don't think that this forum is where you could get the best answers to your questions, but I'll try.

Most vegans are also environmentalists and therefore against Bt corn and transgenics. I don't believe we have a "vegan policy" on this. As you surely know, much has been written about the pros and cons of this topic.

I applaud your studies (I started out with a degree in biology myself), but would caution you to look at all sides of an issue. The scientists you speak of may believe that they are helping us and trying to make our lives better. You may think that we will all benefit from your research. Here is why I don't believe that:

The medical profession, drug companies, food companies, and agribusiness all use research from universities. They then take this information and figure out a way to "help" the rest of us while making a profit. Humans have survived for thousands of years without this type of help. Why do we need it now?

If we returned to local, organic, renewable agriculture and started eating unprocessed foods then we wouldn't need much of these businesses.

I work in an operating room and I anesthetize people so that the surgeon may "help" them with a problem they would not have had if they had stayed away from - convenient helpful processed foods, produce with helpful pesticides, helpful low-tar cigarettes, helpful household cleaning chemicals, convenient e. coli laden burgers, helpful cars that require no physical exertion - and the list goes on.

I am not trying to insult you. I merely want you to REALLY THINK about the fact that throughout history, whenever we try to help people, many times we hurt them (and the environment) in some other way.

[Mozbee]

Now that last message is what I call HELPFUL!

[Seaside]

Posted by Dianecrna:

I work in an operating room and I anesthetize people so that the surgeon may "help" them with a problem they would not have had if they had stayed away from - convenient helpful processed foods, produce with helpful pesticides, helpful low-tar cigarettes, helpful household cleaning chemicals, convenient e. coli laden burgers, helpful cars that require no physical exertion - and the list goes on.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

[TinyGirl]

I'm not entirely sure what I expected here, but it certainly wasn't this. I asked some very simple questions and was answered with insults. You know nothing about me, other than that I am a graduate student in entomology. Because I use insects in my work you assume that I must be torturing them.

The scientists I have met are people who are in the field because of an innate curiosity about the world and a desire to improve it. They aren't monsters, they're people who work towards making your life better. You benefit from the agricultural research labs like mine conduct, yet you do not hesitate to condemn us.

I'm still wondering what the general position on Bt corn and other transgenics is.

Of course, I'm fully expecting this post to be blocked.

You might want to explain what Bt corn is, pet. I'm a PhD student with an entomologist father, and I still had to look it up to clarify!

I like your name, though. Can you flip yourself up to standing, from on your back?

http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Entom...rops/ef130.htm

[veganblue]

I applaud your studies (I started out with a degree in biology myself), but would caution you to look at all sides of an issue. The scientists you speak of may believe that they are helping us and trying to make our lives better. You may think that we will all benefit from your research. Here is why I don't believe that:

The medical profession, drug companies, food companies, and agribusiness all use research from universities. They then take this information and figure out a way to "help" the rest of us while making a profit. Humans have survived for thousands of years without this type of help. Why do we need it now?

If we returned to local, organic, renewable agriculture and started eating unprocessed foods then we wouldn't need much of these businesses.

I am not trying to insult you. I merely want you to REALLY THINK about the fact that throughout history, whenever we try to help people, many times we hurt them (and the environment) in some other way.

The post above, Dianecrna, is well written and gentle and hopefully helpful to Elateridae. Hopefully she is brave enough to stick around after the flaming from the v.p. she has received as a new member with questions.

I would ask of Dianecrna where you think we would be without penicillin , for example. It was some very dedicated people that noticed the antibiotic properties of some moulds which has saved so many lives and something that we take for granted. Less than a century ago a prick from a rose thorn was a potentially fatal injury. I doubt that you would suggest that the use of this antibiotic is a bad thing.

Can we cultivate knowledge as well as encouraging wisdom? They do not always travel together but knowledge without wisdom is how we get ourselves into such messes.

I suggest that we take a huge amount of things for granted that are the product of dedicated researchers. The study of ecology and the rise in public awareness about it came to the western world in the last century largely due to Rachael Carson's "Silent Spring" - and her careful documentation of the devestating changes that DDT was having upon the web-like living system. From her work arose the green activists movement. But some seem to forget that she is classed a scientist, and a brilliant and dedicated one.

There are no bogeymen; no sleepless omniscient evils that spawn destruction aka Sauron (for Lord of the Rings fans), just greedy people that have too much power and not enough wisdom.

The hominid species *has* survived for thousands of years, but we have never know it as good as some of us do now - I am amongst one of the small population of lucky ones by advent of birth in Australia. Generally our life spans are extending - how long before our mistakes reverse that trend I don't know, but to lay the blame at the doors of learning and not at the folly of human nature seems pointless.

Blame the population explosion on the discovery of antibiotics - it's part of what is currently artificially bolstering our survival rates - but I give you the alternative where children die young as a normal part of nature (just look at biological systems - to survive one must produce more offspring than there are resources for so that the fittest survives and createst a new better adapted generation).

The oil *will* run out and the world will be better for the fact so long as we don't take the nuclear fission path. No oil means reliance on a new source of energy and chemical resource. Smaller communities, less travel, less waste.

I personally visualise a beautiful place but I am optimistic about the future.

As you say, I think that we will be forced to return to organic renewable agriculture and make the decision to reduce our ridiculous population growth. Somehow, disasterously, I think that a combination of our own folly and natural processes will address that problem for us, catastrophically. We have already overstepped the carrying capacity of the planet many years ago.

[veganblue]

You might want to explain what Bt corn is, pet. I'm a PhD student with an entomologist father, and I still had to look it up to clarify!

I like your name, though. Can you flip yourself up to standing, from on your back?

http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Entom...rops/ef130.htm

There is more about Bt corn in the GMO thread here post 94.

[DianeVegan]

As always, Veganblue, you give a thoughtful reply. I agree with many of your statements. However, I do not believe that antibiotics (and perhaps immunizations) have been good for this planet. Yes, they have increased longevity for all humans, from the very young to the very old. But is this a good thing? (I of course think that it is PERSONALLY a good thing and I don't think any of us would want to live without them.)

Before the advent of antibiotic, say 1800, the world population was 1 billion.
By 1900 the population increased to 1.7 billion.
In 2000, the world population was 6.1 billion.

Why? Certainly, antibiotics play a role. So does clean water, better preservation of food, refrigeration, medicine, chemicals, plastics, automobiles.....the list goes on. But I was not criticizing research that brought us those things. My criticism is of the exploitation of research that brings us useless (and expensive, needless) things such as:

-Overly processed foods (which are heavily advertised)

-Copycat drugs which "cure" nothing (how about 4 drugs to lower your cholesterol, 5 drugs for gastric reflux, 3 drugs for low bone density, 3 drugs for erectile dysfuntion, and all the other "best sellers" now on the market?)

-Electric toothbrushes, games children must plug in, DVD players in SUVs, and powered gadgets for almost every human activity

-Gastric bypass surgery instead of diet and exercise; knee replacements due to obesity and lack of use; cadaver skin being used for plastic surgery (instead of the burn patients it was meant for); drugs for just about any symptom or emotion

-Disposable everything! (and believe me, here in the US, you never have to use anything twice)

Hey, I could keep typing all day. I agree that if we don't control ourselves (AND corporate/government/individual greed) then something will catastrophically do it for us in the future. And when that happens, it will be the very young, the very old and the very poor who will most likely suffer the very most. I hope your beautiful place is realised.

[snivelingchild]

-Electric toothbrushes, games children must plug in, DVD players in SUVs, and powered gadgets for almost every human activity

One of my biggest annoyances are the electric things that don't need to be. Weed wackers, paper shredders, as you said toothbrushes, those power bikes, etc. People spend so much money buying stuff to make activities easier, then dish out more money to work out at the gym because for some reason, they gained weight. My father-not-in-law looks at me like I'm crazy because I pull weeds by hand and don't just chop them down with a weed wacker. I also like to rake the leaves instead of just letting them be mowed over (he calls it mulching, but they aren't being mulched at all. Most of the leaves are still whole) and leaving them there so grass stops growing. Then he wonders why I barely have to exercise to stay thin.

-Disposable everything! (and believe me, here in the US, you never have to use anything twice)

Plates, forks, cups, razors, shoes (practically), toothbrushes, napkins, towels (I don't know what's wrong with keeping some rags and washing them to clean with), facial tissues, diapers, hand wipes, bath wipes, small pads with cream IN THEM so someone doesn't have to go through the horrid work of applying the cream normally (like acne pads, prep H, makeup remover pads, etc.), view-once DVDs, the list goes on and on. Oh, I wish people would just waste less.

I know this wasn't really on-topic, but I just could resist.

[veganblue]

I believe in pendulum swings; when things get really good - then we seem to want more and more of the good thing, until we are drowning in it. Then the pendulum has swung past the balance and things always seen to have to get *really* bad before they get better.

The pendulum always swings back - whether we come along with it this time (global warming, lost resources, over-population) remains to be seen.

How bad is it going to get? Don't know. Can we stop this cycle? Possibly, but it's part of what drives us; gather food, seek shelter, reproduce when conditions are favorable, and try and do it all as efficiently as possible. Our ability to do this in many cases has far outstripped our needs in many parts of the world and is putting horrendous strain on future resources.

Are we wise enough as a collection of sapient beings? I doubt it. We are all animals and we will all go the way of overabundant populations - boom then bust. Gloomy I know but some will survive and hopefully they will learn the lessons of their predecessors for a little while.

[DianeVegan]

For those of you interested in this topic (well, the more recent topic, not the one we originally started with on this thread) - I urge you to read two books by Jared Diamond.

Guns, Germs, and Steel - The Fates of Human Societies (1997)

Collapse - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed (2005)

The author has been a professor of physiology and geography, with work in evolutionary biology and biogeography. He won a Pulitzer Prize for the 1st book and has written other books and hundreds of articles.

The first book looks at where we came from and the second shows where we might end. If I could invite one person (non-vegan) to dinner at my table, it would be him!

[xwitchymagicx]

I'm a graduate student in entomology, and naturally we use insects in our work. Many of us are also avid collectors.

So, basically, I'm curious as to whether vegans consider what we do cruel or immoral or whatever. Do vegans eat insects? What are vegan views on things like Bt corn?

Poor insects. I don't know why anyone would want to eat them or "use" them.

[elateridae]

Meal worms taste pretty much like corn chips. It is important that we use them in our studies if you wish to continue to live in civilization. Without modern agriculture, life would be very different.

If entomologists didn't do their job, you wouldn't eat. Even organic food is sprayed with things like Bt and subject to other IPM measures. 10% of crop yeild in the U.S. is currently lost to pests and disease despite control measures; in developing nations with little modern agriculture the loss can be up to 70%.

If you had Pthirus pubis would you cure it? Or would you let the little dears continue to inhabit your pubic region because their lives are so valuable?

[Pilaf]

Even when I was an omni, I found the idea of eating insects disgusting.

Now that I'm a vegan, I think Mr. Praying Mantis has deep, soulful eyes. I asked him about the time of day but he only stared blankly. Hah...he's a good old guy, really.

[sugarmouse]

I have to agree with witchymagic..insectshave the right to live their lives and be left alone by us.

[rujoon]

Hmm.. I find elateridae's questions pretty much valid, and they gave us another view as to how non-vegans (assuming she is non-vegan) view things. I think understanding how non-vegans look at things can help us promote veganism in a better way

So, basically, I'm curious as to whether vegans consider what we do cruel or immoral or whatever. Do vegans eat insects? What are vegan views on things like Bt corn?

No vegans do not eat insect or use insect products like what the others have already said. Bt-corn is a GMO, some vegans do not take GMO produce. Imo, GMO may be benificial in some ways, but possible effects of taking them may not be known. Besides, we do not know what kind of genes are inserted in the crops etc., and other than the original benefit they are suppose to give, it is difficult to know if the products of these genes can affect other signalling pathways in the crops and cause undesired products produced. There are a lot of question marks..

[Korn]

Meal worms taste pretty much like corn chips. It is important that we use them in our studies if you wish to continue to live in civilization. Without modern agriculture, life would be very different.

Without all these people eating meat every day, modern agriculture would be very different.

If entomologists didn't do their job, you wouldn't eat.

I feel so sorry for all those people who were born before there were entomologists now.....

Even organic food is sprayed with things like Bt and subject to other IPM measures.

IPM Measures? Please elaborate. Maybe you should also share your definition of 'organic'. Have you heard the term 'vegan organic' before?

10% of crop yeild in the U.S. is currently lost to pests and disease despite control measures

And what percentage of the land is lost to growing plants to feed farm animals 'produced' meant to become food for meat eaters?

If you had Pthirus pubis would you cure it? Or would you let the little dears continue to inhabit your pubic region because their lives are so valuable?

No, I wouldn't. I would also defend myself if an animal attacked me. But that doesn't mean that I think it's right to kill animals for food, exploit animals or harm them (or let them harm me), neithe rdoes it give me a reason to become an 'avid collector' of insects.... Now, where is the relevance between ie. removing hair to get rid of lice and using animals, birds or insects in your studies?

Do vegans eat insects?

No. Do you?

There are so many really thin and weak 'arguments' from meat eaters... based on really twised logic, a la 'I saw a vegetarian kill an insect that attcked him, so why doesn't he eat meat?'

By the way, we have a thread about GMO in one of the other forums; this is the only forum where vegan/non-vegan issues are discussed.

[ConsciousCuisine]

Meal worms taste pretty much like corn chips.

I don't see how a living, fleshy, squishy creature could possibly taste like dried, milled, deep-fried corn Are you speaking from personal experience? You've deep-fried meal worms for appetizers? Did you serve up grub guacamole to accompany it?

[Seaside]

CC!!
Somewhere there's got to be a Gary Larson cartoon of entomologists snacking on their specimens!

[elateridae]

Besides, we do not know what kind of genes are inserted in the crops etc., and other than the original benefit they are suppose to give, it is difficult to know if the products of these genes can affect other signalling pathways in the crops and cause undesired products produced.

Companies that produce GMOs are full of mad scientists that do evil experiments on hapless insects that test their products very thoroughly. My PI works for one of these companies.

I feel so sorry for all those people who were born before there were entomologists now.....

The Chinese were the first (or the first we know about) to use control measures to protect their crops, and this was well over a thousand years ago.

However, what you should understand is that back in the day most people were farmers. Today we have 5% of the population feeding the other 95%, and if that 5% screws up, we're screwed.

IPM Measures? Please elaborate. Maybe you should also share your definition of 'organic'. Have you heard the term 'vegan organic' before?

Integrated pest management - it's what happened when we realized that pesticides alone weren't going to solve our problems. It involves the use of things like mating disruption, trapping, timed planting, etc. The USDA now has specific standards governing organic food. I've never heard the term vegan organic before.

No, I wouldn't. I would also defend myself if an animal attacked me. But that doesn't mean that I think it's right to kill animals for food, exploit animals or harm them (or let them harm me), neithe rdoes it give me a reason to become an 'avid collector' of insects.... Now, where is the relevance between ie. removing hair to get rid of lice and using animals, birds or insects in your studies?

Ok. So you'd use mosquitoes in malaria studies then. In effect, insects are attacking us. They are a threat to our food supply and health.

[Korn]

However, what you should understand is that back in the day most people were farmers.

That depends on how far 'back in the day' you go. Agriculture is a rather new thing, historically seen.

Today we have 5% of the population feeding the other 95%, and if that 5% screws up, we're screwed.

The situation today is the other way round: Most people eat meat (in the Western wolrd), meaning that the amount of plants needed, the land needed, and the requirements for 'efficiency' in agriculture is totally different than if the world population would live on a plant based diet. 95% screw it up for 100% of all humans AND the animals.

Ok. So you'd use mosquitoes in malaria studies then.

If I should study diseases, I would rather go along the lines that ie. George Oshawa did, (he tried to find natural ways to make people resistent against diseases, by changing their diet (among other things)). I would research on using non-harming methods for treating and preventing them. Synthetic methods of treating or preventing diseases (like taking malaria pills over a long period of time) often have serious side effects we really don't want, and most research seem to have little focus on a lifestyle that doesn't use methods that harm nature. Why are there so few researchers that are dedicated to finding ways to deal with these issues that doesn't cause pollution, future health/environemt risks, and side effects that nobody wants?

In effect, insects are attacking us.

Some insects are attacking some people. And there are various ways to deal with that. We have found treatment for many diseases, but most non-natural methods of treating or preventing diseases are harmful on their own. To take the malaria example, malaria pills ar known to possible cause a lot of damage, plus causing the development of anti-malaria resistent mosquitos. Lot's of synthetic medicine pass through the humans taking them, is released in the urine, and conisdered environmental pollution, since so many people are taking them (like oral contraceptives os sleeping pills).

You had not heard about vegan organic agriculture, but since you are a graduate student in entomology, may I ask how much you have learned about non-synthetic, environment friendly ways to deal with ants, mosqitos and other insects in your studies? Why do you think that a graduate student have been taught NOTHING about vegan organic gardening, which is THE way to go if one should protect oneself against insects etc. without harming the insects and the environment (and thereby humans)... could it be that the faculty and writers of your textbooks simply don't care? Do you care?

Are you interested in harming animals/humans/the environment as little as possible? Or do you only have a theoretical interest in this topic? I assume that you are too intelligent to be one of these 'it's ethically OK to eat meat if you kill a mosquito'-nerds?

Has this been part of your studies:
'Traditional herbal medicines for malaria' (from bmjjournals.com)

Or this:

Chemicals known as disulfides, which are found in onions, garlic and mahogany trees, are known to be active against fungus, bacteria and cancer. Animal studies have also shown they can fight malaria. To investigate their effects, investigators exposed cultured, malaria-infected human cells to 11 disulfide compounds. They found that the compounds that helped wipe out the malaria parasite were also active against cultured melanoma cells. Apparently malaria-infected cells and some cancer cells have the same susceptibility profile. However, the exact mechanism of action is still unclear. Ajoene and dysoxysulfone, two disulfide compounds found in garlic and onions, may ward off malaria by disrupting an enzyme important in allowing malaria to infect cells and cancer cells to reproduce. This is kind of interesting because if you have malaria in the area, eating a diet rich in garlic and onions could give you an edge.

From American Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene's 50th Annual Meeting in Atlanta, 2001

Or this:

Arginine, an amino acid produced naturally in the body and found in nuts and rice, may be useful in the treatment of malaria, as researchers found that among 75 children in Africa, those with the lowest levels of arginine suffered the deadliest consequences of malaria.

The world is in more or less a desperate need for resarch on humans, on nature, and most of all on ways to prevent/treat diseases using natural methods that doesn't cause all the dangerous side effects that ie. malaria pills are known for. For example, have you ever seen ONE study of increased immunity torwards diseases among lifelong vegans or vegetarians? There is so much we can do to find out more about prevent /healing diseases by chaninging our lifestyle; instead most research seem to focus on how one we allow people to live the same way they do today, and instead cure all the health problems they get by develping synthetic medicine - WITHOUT paying attention to the very important fact that synthetic medicine, not only using it, but the production of it, in itself is a helth problem, while natural methods normally cause little harm/side effects, if any at all. Why do we waste all those scientists on the wrong kind of research? To use malaria as an example again, if we could find an efficient and natural way to treat malaria, millions of people wouldn't need to take anti-malaria pills, which would be a big step in the right direction. The medicine itself is a problem.

Traditional Medicinal Plants and Malaria
Botanical Treatment and prevention of Malaria

I'm not saying that I've found a simple solution to the malaria problem, but that research normally is done without taking the non-harming aspect that vegans find so important into consideration..... which in the long run means that not only animals, but also humans and our environment is harmed.

[Seaside]

What elateridae fails to mention is that 99.999999% of the motivation for using non-human animals in medical and agricultural research is $$$PROFIT$$$. These companies aren't worried about whether people have sufficient food and are free of disease, unless of course it means there are fewer customers for the food and drugs they want to get rich by selling to us. I have a hard time believing that any of the pharmaceutical companies in the USA care about children in third world countries catching malaria from mosquitoes, because these children don't have any money. What they do need to do research on animals for is to make sure that their products won't outright kill their customers, because then they will lose their cash cows and be open to law suits. Experimenting on animals does nothing to help anyone but the people paying for the experiments.

[lozza]

so well said! i wish i could give answers like that.. people question me and i can never think of good facts right off the top of my head!