What separates humans from animals

[Billy]

Instead of the choice of killing an animal or human, how about saving the life of an animal or human.

If I'm in this desperate situation of life or death. I have a split second to save the life of this human being or this animal, what do I do?

Personally, it will be the Human Being. It breaks my heart to think of any of my pets suffering some kind of death. But, I believe in this situation Humanity comes first. I would never chose to kill an animal. If given the opportunity to save an animal, I will, and I have, numerous times. It really pisses my husband off, I have to say! LOL!

Again, for me it would depend on whether I'd know the human or the animal. If I had to choose between someone I know and cared about and an animal that I didn't, I'd rescue the human. If it'd be between either one of my dogs and an unknown human, then I'm sorry but the human would stand little chance of being rescued by me.
If there was no emotional bond involved with either one of them, then I'd close my eyes and grab whatever I could, and whoever I could grab would be the one to be rescued. And off course y'all are absolutely free to disagree with me.

So are you all gonna come camping with me then? Goodie! I don't mind loitering vegans, especially not if they don't mind keeping my little angel-devil busy and happy!

See y'all at campsite 'The Happy Vegan' then!

Billy

[Robin]

Well, I've read such a wonderful poem that I'm gonna give it a go and try to translate it into english so that you may enjoy it as well

What really separates humans from other animals

Troughout our history we've researched
what separates humans from other animals
or what makes humans superior to animals as it's usually called:
We separate humans from animals
girls from boys
queers from unqueers
unqueers with freckles from unqueers with freckles-
Everything shall be separated and sorted
but most important of all, to separate humans from animals
animals from unanimals*

It's been said that what separates humans from animals
Is humans abillity to plan ahead.
But Animals plan ahead -
There are animals who leave the country when winter comes
And that's a whole lot more than we do.
Just because animals don't plan the best way to invade Iraq
Doesn't mean that animals can't make plans.

It's been said that what separates humans from animals
is humans abillity to make tools.
But animals make tools-
There are animals who makes nests from old dreadlocks.
And that's a whole lot more than we do.
Just because animals doesn't invent dildos or nuclear weapons
Doesn't it mean that they can't invent tools.

It's been said that what separates humans from animals
is humans capabillity to communicate.
But animals communicate.
And that's a whole lote more than we do.
Just because animals doesn't have Christmaspresentrhymes and clichés for breaking up
Doesn't it mean that they can't communicate

It's been said that what separates humans from animals
Is humans abillity to laugh -
So Grumpy people watch out!
force a bitter sneer every once in a while
So you don't accidentally get milked
or caged or maybe even eaten.
Because what separates humans from the cage is the laughter
and what separates humans from animals is the slaughter

This doesn't work, obviously
We need new differences, and I brought a couple along:

What separates humans from animals
Is that no animals have to go to india,
take LSD or go in therapy for years
to find themselves

What separates humans from animals
is that no animals would willingly
give power over their lives
to George W Bush**

But even my differences may one day become inaccurate
So I suppose the only lastring difference is that
the only thing that separates humans from animals
is humans need to find out
what separates humans from animals

and since I've done that now

Moooooooooooooo

- Emil Jensen (Vinner of Berlin International Slam-revue, september 2004 I might add)

* the word "unanimal" is in swedish , when you put the "un" infront of animal, the same word as the english word for beast.

** Here I substituted a swedish politican named Alf Svensson with George W Bush cause I thought more people would get that.

So, what do you think ? had the wonderful chance to hear this proclaimed live, it was just awesome.

Do you have any other animal rights poetry?

And if you wonder, yes Emil Jensen is vegetarian, he was vegan once, but he travelled around so much that he couldn't manage it in the end and had to go vegetarian for the sake of simplicity

[Seaside]

Thanks Robin!

So I suppose the only lastring difference is that
the only thing that separates humans from animals
is humans need to find out
what separates humans from animals

That's my favorite part!

[Robin]

You're welcome

It's been said that what separates humans from animals
Is humans abillity to laugh -
So Grumpy people watch out!
force a bitter sneer every once in a while
So you don't accidentally get milked
or caged or maybe even eaten.
Because what separates humans from the cage is the laughter
and what separates humans from animals is the slaughter

That's my favourite part

[Mozbee]

Lovely reading, humans are still afraid of being animals! The average human still seems to see the title as some kind of discredit. Personally I'd much rather be an animal than a human these days. ('Human' seems quite a shaming label thanks to the actions of GWBush, TBliar, and ofcourse the people behind companies such as Shell, Esso, P&G, Unilever, Walmart, Sainsbury's etc )

[tails4wagging]

We are ALL animals!! mammals in fact !!

[Robin]

We are ALL animals!! mammals in fact !!

Unless you go by the Matrix-definition, in that case we are a virus

[Mozbee]

I know I'm an animal. I just ment I'd like to be a non-human one!

[Korn]

What separates humans from animals? We can laugh, we can read and write, and have developed relatively advanced motor skills. But we also kill other animals for entertainment, humans have a lot of mental and physical diseases, and not only are both capable of destroying our eco-system, but we are doing it. We have long, large organized wars, and there are millions of adults and children who suffer as a result of this.

Some people use the status of Homo Sapiens as an argument pro eating animal products. But if it was meat that gave us language skills or the ability to construct and play a drum kit, wouldn't there be a lot of drumming tigers out there? If it made us so perfect from a physical point of view, why so so many people suffer from cancer, arthritis, diabetes and heart disease? If it made us so perfect from a psychological point of view, why is there so much fear, anxiety, conflict, boredom and unhappiness among humans?

Here are some articles I just found (I'll read them later):

What Separates Humans from Animals?

What's the main thing that separates humans from animals?

What Separates Us from the Animals

Differences between humans and animals

At Our Mercy: The Eating of Animals

[Aarinsky]

Humans use culture (by this I mean learned behavior, as opposed to evolutionary adaptations transmitted genetically) to adapt to our environment to a far greater extent than do other animals. We're not the only animals that have culture, of course, but we rely on cultural adaptations to a degree unparralleled by any other species. This is neither good nor bad in itself. Many of our cultural traits are maladaptive... war, pollution, inequality... but many are positive in effect... clothing, medicine, cooperation and compassion. Our level of cultural/technological innovation has been increasing exponentially over the centuries. Thus, our challenge as a species is to be able to use this defining trait of ours to the benefit, rather than to the detriment of our planet and all life that inhabits it.

None of this means that we have any business eating other animals. We're not better than other species, just different. Even if we were somehow "better", we still would have the ability to feel compassion for "lesser" creatures. And we're fortunate not to be an inherently carnivorous species--we can thrive on a vegan diet. Our compassion, along with our own self interest (health and environment) and our ability to reason allow us to choose not to eat other animals.

[Stu]

I don't see how humans are separate from other animals.

It's not like there are humans on one side, and all other animals on the other. You could say that giraffes are separate from other animals, because they have much longer necks, and they don't communicate with sounds. You could say that geese are separate from other animals, because they are the only ones called 'geese.' Or that jellyfish are separate because they are the only ones that resemble jelly, etc etc.

[Enchantress]

I dunno, some humans look rather jelly-like.

[Blueshark]

It is just simply our intelligence.

It has evolved higher than any other animal.

Thus we can choose to override our animal instincts.

Animal instincts are 'our programming', but given our propensity to prove to ourselves that we are free, we go against nature.

etc..

[sandra]

Our intelligence is not necessarily better, just different. Animals have their own intelligence, it's just different from humans. Also don't forget we ourselves are animals. If aliens came here with a different kind of intelligence from us would that make our intelligence any less?No it wouldn't, ours would just be different. Just because animals can't use a computer or read and write it doesn't make them less as beings in my eyes, just think of all the horrible humans that are computer experts! I therefore don't think our intelligence separates us from animals, we all have our own kind of intelligence.

[Stu]

It is just simply our intelligence.

It has evolved higher than any other animal.

Thus we can choose to override our animal instincts.

Animal instincts are 'our programming', but given our propensity to prove to ourselves that we are free, we go against nature.

etc..

That depends what you mean by 'intelligence.' That word is largely meaningless. It has no real definition.

Even so, I'm not convinced that humans are as 'intelligent' as we tell ourselves we are. Would the most intelligent species also be the most destructive? Is it the behaviour of an intelligent race, to dismantle the planet piece by piece?

[Blueshark]

Yes, self-destructiveness is perhaps human-kinds biggest weakness.

Almost like burning a house to see if it is safe.

[sugarmouse]

I agree about the intelligence thing. If anything, we are much lesser intelligent (which yes has no definition to it) as we use our power to destroy ourselves and our surroundings.other animals do not value our type of intelligence, it would be pretty meaningless to other animals to have our 'intelligence'..
I dont think we are so much seperate from other animals.we just have a certain ability to overpower other animals.but then i would not say this makes us seperate, just more selfish if anything.

[Old Wolf]

in·tel·li·gence
Function: noun
a : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations b : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly

Far from being a meaningless word, intelligence <b>is</b> what 'seperates' humans from other animals. Humans:

1) can reason very abstractly (I do not think any other animal could much comprehend things like the Lebesgue integral, path quivers of algebras, structure theory for finitely generated modules, string theory)

2) we apply our knowledge to manipulating the environment far more than other animals

3) We can learn new information at rates that far exceede other animals.

The question only is whether this intelligence has any inherent worth. Our intelligence certainly helps us survive, allows our great fecundity, and enhances our genetic fitness. There is no question that we are a very successful species, but even the success of a species isn't really a measure of worth.

As to the question of different intelligences, I don't think this is a well-defined notion. There are other species that are definitely quite fecund and successful (cockroaches for instance) that make little use of intelligence.

Intelligence is merely an evolutionary adaption, nothing more or nothing less. Intelligence isn't instinct, consciousness, self-awareness, or anything else.

Intelligence is also a double edged sword. From intelligence comes intellectual and unsatisfiable desires, which in turn lead to suffering. Depression, blood-lust, and hatred all stem from our intelligence (and free time).

[Vegan cat]

Yes, self-destructiveness is perhaps human-kinds biggest weakness.

Almost like burning a house to see if it is safe.

and greed perhaps!

Humans want too much. Always looking for the next bigger better thing!

[sandra]

Exactly, but like I said [and I think you agreed to a certain degree], intelligence is just different among species, I don't regard one type of intelligence above another. Animals have their own intelligence which has helped them survive, which I think is an even greater feat than humans as they have the behaviour of the humans to contend with!

[Stu]

I wouldn't pay attention to dictionary definitions of intelligence. Psychologists are still arguing about it, and have been for a long time (and will be for a long time to come).

Even using the definitions you gave, it's still subjective. We can't measure those things, nor can we state for a fact that they apply to us more than to any other species.

[sandra]

Yes Stu, and like you said earlier, humans are not so intelligent when they are destroying the very planet they live on!

[Vegan cat]

Yes Stu, and like you said earlier, humans are not so intelligent when they are destroying the very planet they live on!

Exactly!

[sandra]

Hi Vegan cat, I love your two cute wee cats in your profile, are they yours? I know this isn't a thread about cute cats, but I Just had to say it!

[Vegan cat]

Yes they are

Leo is the Tabby at the back and Oscar is the black and white.

Sadly though I lost Oscar - he went out one day and never came back



I posted a couple more pics of leo on the brag about companion animals thread.

[Pilaf]

Cages. (terrible joke, I know, but I had to.)

[Old Wolf]

I wouldn't pay attention to dictionary definitions of intelligence. Psychologists are still arguing about it, and have been for a long time (and will be for a long time to come).

Even using the definitions you gave, it's still subjective. We can't measure those things, nor can we state for a fact that they apply to us more than to any other species.

A dictionary definition seems to me exactly perfect, since it is just a word. There is nothing entirely mystical, ineffable, or strange in the defintion. What can be argued is where intelligence comes from, but it is entirely clear that humans can do many things to a greater degree than other animals. This is what the phrase "humans are more intelligent" encapsulates.

Let's look at it again, with a mind to seeing how we could determine intelligence.

1) abstract reasoning. It is clear other animals (primates, dolphins, wolves, etc.) can reason abstractly. A wolf can watch you open the latch on a fence, and then figure out how to do it itself. The very fact we can train canines also suggests they have the ability to equate task=food.

So I'd say, indeed, we can test (at least on a primitive level) for abstract reasoning. We can certainly test ourselves for it. Art and mathematics are the penultimate expressions of abstract reasoning.

What evidence do we have that humans can abstract with greater ability than other species? The fact we have a written language, we have a very detailed spoken language, we have mathematics, we can build tools, we are highly inventive. You do not see this as much in the animal world. Partly because many animals lack the dexteriy for tool making, and so we would not expect them to develope a written language or tools. But even in primates, we see only the rudiments.

Were other animals able to reason as abstractly as us, there is every reason to believe they could actually communicate us with much greater ability than we observe. How would you go about communicating with an alien lifeform? If you have mathematics, that is of course where you start. But there are any number of things you could do. We just don't see this. Most primate communication with us (via hand signs) is very primitive, though I've read that some primates express novel thoughts and ideas (like naming a Watermelon a "water fruit" and things like that. This certainly suggests they have some capacity for language, at least to me.)

2) manipulating the environment.

There is no question humans, on this planet, possess the greatest facility for manipulating their environment. It is actually how we survive. Instead of adapting to the environment, we adapt it. No question here.

3) rate of obtaining new information

Humans are very quick are solving problems, which is a combination of obtaining new information and thinking abstractly. You can show a dog, or even a wolf-dog hybrid hundreds of times how to open a gate, but they never quite get it. Or compare training animals to do certain tasks, like button pushing for food. How long does it take certain animals to make the connection that the buttom dispenses food? Compared with humans?

[sandra]

This may all be true, but how do we know the animals are not looking at us and thinking 'Those pathetic humans, rushing around, reading, writing, inventing things, making life harder for themselves, while we just get on with living.'

[Korn]

The very fact we can train canines also suggests they have the ability to equate task=food.

Please elaborate...

Were other animals able to reason as abstractly as us, there is every reason to believe they could actually communicate us with much greater ability than we observe.

Humans definitely have areas in which they are strong - areas where other animals 'fail', but that true for animals too. It's also a fact that some humans are strong in some areas in which other humans are very strong. I'm not sure if the ability to communicate with humans can serve as a measurement of how intelligent animals are. Maybe they are communicating with us in ways we are not able to understand? Maybe the are not interested? I agree that we have many skills other animals don't have (and vice versa), but I hope you agree that this doesn't make the inferior...

Most primate communication with us (via hand signs) is very primitive, though I've read that some primates express novel thoughts and ideas (like naming a Watermelon a "water fruit" and things like that. This certainly suggests they have some capacity for language, at least to me.)

True, we can, and the way we live, we need this language. An animal living in the midst of the food he wants may not need to know how to ask for it in any language...

If I want to visit a given island in the fjord I'm living next to, I either have to take a boat or a plane: build one, or learn a language that lets me communicate that I need a boat or an airplane. Fishes and birds don't need that, as they have capabilities humans don't - they can swim under water for a long time/fly. I could train myself to be able to swim that long, but it would take a lot of effort time for a human. We often use language because we are incapable of doing stuff animals/birds/fish can do easily.

There is no question humans, on this planet, possess the greatest facility for manipulating their environment. It is actually how we survive.

That depends on what you mean by 'manipulating' and 'environment'... We survive by having developed agriculture, but we also survived before agriculture. We survive by 'manipulating' nature, but something seem to have gone wrong with human intelligence, because as a species we use it in ways that may not support survival of the human or any other species. A few nuclear wars, some accidents on nuclear power stations, some lunatic person pushing the wrong buttons and we're gone. Our 'survive vs. destroy-ratio' may not be as glorious as it seems.

Instead of adapting to the environment, we adapt it.

And instead of adapting to natural laws, we destroy it. Animals don't.

Humans are very quick are solving problems, which is a combination of obtaining new information and thinking abstractly.

Our 'solve-problems-vs.-create-problems-ratio' may not be as glorious as it seems either....

You can show a dog, or even a wolf-dog hybrid hundreds of times how to open a gate, but they never quite get it.

That makes sense, as creating gates isn't part of a dog's original nature, so they haven't developed skills like that. Domesticated dogs and cats often are surprising good at opening doors, and don't forget that simple things as walking takes ages for a human or learn compared with animals. We are different from each other, sure: we are good at things we may need, but dogs are very good at ie. hearing and smelling.

Or compare training animals to do certain tasks, like button pushing for food. How long does it take certain animals to make the connection that the buttom dispenses food? Compared with humans?

Again, pushing a button for food isn't part of their natural instinct, just like the ability to fly or hear/see/smell distant objects isn't part of our nature.

There are different kinds of intelligence. One definition is "Intelligence is a general mental capability that involves the ability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn." I had a psychology teacher once who said that a common definition actually was 'the ability to solve problems', and since dogs and humans have different problems, we need different kinds of problem solving skills. By the way, he (and we, his students) went through all available IQ tests that existed, and after having done that, we pretty much agreed with his personal definition of intelligence: 'the ability to get good results on an IQ test'. By this he meant that 'intelligence', as the word is used today, doesn't always tell much about the real abilities to solve real problems. Our problems are of course different from most animals' problems the way we live today. (He also meant that IQ tests often didn't really measure anything else than the ability to solve that particular IQ test, because many of them were based on learned knowledge, but that's a topic for a different thread... ).

If intelligence means or includes 'the ability to solve problems', we are definitely able to solve (and create) problems animals aren't capable of, but animals are definitely capable of solving problems we are not capable of solving. Our intelligence is different from the intelligence of an eagle or a whale or a dog. Ours is the most dangerous one.

I can read, write and understand the word 'chili', but unlike other plant eating animals, I don't know which plants to look for if I should have to survive in a forest. (I don't think humans are 'designed' to eat meat, but if we were, developing tools to be able to kill them is a necessity because we don't have the speed to run after a deer or the ability to fly after a bird or to dive after a fish. )

One way of seeing it, even from a meat eaters point of view, could be that we are 'physically disabled' animals, and have been forced to use tools and language due to our helplessness.

The real question is if we are as happy as the deer or squirrels in the woods seem to be. I have a feeling that they are both more happy and have less frustrations than I have, even if I can push buttons, open gates and pronounce 'water melon' in several human languages!

[dreama]

Yes we have intelligence. Although not all humans have this.

I'd agree some other animals have skills that are perhaps more valueble then intelligence. My dog Jilli is very peaceful. If everyone was peaceful like Jilli then the world would be in a much better state. I can learn to be more peaceful from Jilli. Given the mess that the world is in today I think that Peacefulness is more valueble then intelligence.

It also needs to be said that Other animals who show ability to adapt are the very ones that we consider as 'vermin'. We tend to whipe out any competion when it comes to other animals. For example the Grey squirrel is more able to adapt to an urban lifestyle then their red relatives. Instead of Praising the Grey squirral for this ability we are planning to shoot them in order to 'protect' the red squirrel who is not so capable it seems. Just think where we would be if some Alien superforce shot at us when we were starting to adapt 'better' then other primates.

Rats, Pigeons, and urban foxes also get this treatment simply by showing the ability to adapt.

[magpie]

Insanity, some deep profound mental disturbance maybe that makes humans into the destructive, unnatural species they are.
I can see all the maths and science and social BS that people use to make themselves feel superior, but every other animal is still connected to the earth which gives us life. They know when storms are coming, they feel the breath of life. Whilst people can hear but a whisper over the meaningless chatter of disturbed minds.
The human species has taken one tiny aspect of what every animal possesses and amplified it to dangerous levels, to the point that it makes people disconnected.
We live in a world where humans commit mass murder on a vast scale, where the fabric of life itself is being destroyed with genetics, where in a few years time most life will be destroyed and people are sane? This is the end game, the final days of a species that took a wrong turn in evolutionary terms and sadly most other life forms will go with it.

[VeganJohn]

Animals don't start world wars, kill each over religion and politics, invent nuclear weapons, commit rape, destroy the planet through pollution, or harbour prejudices over colour, creed etc.

'Moral reasoning' is often put forward as something that distinguishes animals from humans.

[kriz]

Many animals are also trying to communicate with us in their own way, but sometimes we're not receptive or even intrested enough to pay attention. One really need to spend some time with animals to understand this. My dog and I have a good communication, I'm able to see what he needs through his body launguage or what type of bark he's using. He also understands MANY words and full sentences in two different launguages (Norwegian and English). But if someone else would take care of him for a while, he/she would not be able to communicate as well at first, unless this person is extremely talented and receptive or is some kind of "pet psychic". But rather quickly the two of them would figure it all out and find their own way to reach each other, maybe even by creating new words and "signs". Dogs and humans are equally adaptive in my opinon. It takes a little time to understand animals, and only humans who make the effort will learn about their abilities.

[herbwormwood]

The main difference is our advanced tool use. Other animals use tools but not to the extent that we have. We have used tools to such an extent that we have developed advanced kiling machines, whole warfare systems to fight with other tribes, tools to exploit the earth's deep resources, to develop advanced medical structures (most animals medicate themselves by what they they eat, for example dogs eat grass when they know they need to make themselves puke), we have developed tools to communicate and travel long distance, including pointless visits to other planets, we have used tools to build advanced dens, and our tool use has led to the development of a system called money, which is probably leading to the destruction of the planet. We have used tools to develop farming to the extent where we are imprisoning other species, to get money.
Other animals have their own languages so this does not distinguish us from them. However we have used our language to record our own history and we use it via our advanced tool communication devices. Books, scrolls, telephones, computers, tvs. Our tool use will probably kill us all, possibly taking down many species with us, and the insects will take over.

[herbwormwood]

Just because animals cannot use computers, send emails, fly planes etc, etc, etc does not mean that they are less than us and that they do not suffer pain, distress, anger, depression and other emotions.

I agree with you completely. The question was what separates us from animals and my answer was advanced tool use. Maybe I should have said "advanced tool use and nothing else? Well of course animals differ from us in many ways depending on what animal they are, some have superior skills to us, which is why I believe that advanced tool use in the way we as humans use tools, to destroy and build, is the only thing we can say for certain that we can do and they can't. I don't think its an intrinsically superior thing. Its destroying the earth like no other creature has done.

[herbwormwood]

'Moral reasoning' is often put forward as something that distinguishes animals from humans.

If you read some books on animal communication and animal societies for example Jeffrey Masson's books, the moral reasoning argument can be questioned.

[Blueshark]

Humans are still animals. We are still primates. Sure we can invent.

But then a cheetah can run faster than scooter.

A killer whale can eat more meat than a human.

A cow can cause global warming.

A monkey can murder.

A human can prevent all these things, or can encourage them.

Does it make it any clearer?