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Thread: About vegan babies (among other things)

  1. #1
    Melina
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    Default About vegan babies (among other things)

    Hi everyone, I'm new here.. vegetarian for 13 years, vegan for 2 weeks! Loving it and feeling great!
    I think I'm beginning to win my husband over to veganism too!
    Now I am thinking about my 16 month old daughter who we've been raising semi-vegetarian (she eats fish), I want to make the switch to feeding her vegan foods but there are so many things that concern me; first, I will need to find some recipes for her... most of the vegan dishes I make are full of nuts, seeds, crispy veggies that she cannot chew yet... but also, when she gets older, say she is invited to a birthday party and is the only vegan there... doesn't it prove to be a social issue as well, I mean, what if all her little friends think she is weird because she has this special diet? I don't want her to grow up with feelings of being different or not belonging, etc. I'd like to talk to other parents about this. We are moving soon to Dawson Creek BC, I've read some posts on here by The First Bus who lives there and doesn't seem too happy there because there are no vegans or like-minded people there, this concerns me. I guess if it's really that bad we will not stay there, but I'll have to go there to see for myself I suppose. Anyhow it's great to be here, I look forward to getting to know you all!

  2. #2
    Stu
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Well if I was you, I'd feed her good vegan food, and let other people (e.g. friends' parents) feed her what they want.

    And why not stay in The Netherlands? It strikes me as being a great place.

  3. #3

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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Some of the posts from ConsciousCuisine are really good (and I'm sure there are other members with good post/replies as well) and she has raised at least one vegan child, it appears. You'll find many supportive people here.

    Alas, your daughter will be different because she has a beautiful mother from another country who's really intelligent. So what if she doesn't eat animals? She's going to have such a problem if she looks like you anyway
    Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein

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    Imapeach's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Welcome to veganism
    I too was raised in a different lifestyle with a different diet to all my school friends and was teased, outcasted etc to a degree because of it. And you know what? The diet I ate even involved meat!

    The point is, any child that is remotely "different" will get special attention, whether friendly or unwanted. I believe it can have a healthy effect however in the long run, as it certainly opened my eyes to the ways of the world at an early age! I hate to think what a mindless drone I would be today if I had been raised like a "generic" child!

  5. #5
    Melina
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Thanks for all your messages & support! I especially like what you say Imapeach, really got me thinking, I don't want her to be raised as a mindless "generic child" and yes you are right, it is good to open her eyes to the world at an early age. I really needed to hear that!
    Dianecrna, thanks so much for your compliments!!!!
    I'm originally from northern Quebec, Canada. I am used to having a lot of space and access to wilderness. Holland is a tiny, overpopulated country with no nature to speak of. Everything here is artificial; straight man-made canals, trees all planted in straight rows. Nothing is natural and there is no place to go, to get away from people. I am an outdoorsy person and my spirit needs wilderness to escape into, which is impossible here. It's overcrowded, the cost of living is astronomical, and frankly I cannot get used to the mentality of the people (I've been here 3 years). I find them to be extremely in-your-face, blunt, and rude. And there is a lack of respect for personal space and privacy here. We are moving because my husband got a job offer in Dawson Creek (he's Dutch but has fallen in love with Canada and wants to leave as much as I do!), he can make much more money in his profession over there, plus the cost of living is much lower, so we'll be better off in so many ways. I want my children to know what nature is. Here, they can only see animals in zoos.

  6. #6
    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Quote Dianecrna
    Some of the posts from ConsciousCuisine are really good (and I'm sure there are other members with good post/replies as well) and she has raised at least one vegan child, it appears. You'll find many supportive people here.



    try what did your vegan children eat today for some ideas and the vegan family house is also a nice site to look around.

    try looking through the 'kids & relationships' thread, there is loads there but lots of advice, tips and experience too!

  7. #7
    sionthebard
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Hi Melina,

    My daughter who is now 8, was brought up vegan for the first 3-4 years of her life. Both her mother and I were vegan at the time and we were obviously concerned about whether or not she would be getting a healthy, balanced diet, but we were committed to raising her without feeding her on animal products. Fortunately there was very little she would not eat that we tried her with, and she particularly loved fruit, so much that there were times that she really didn't want to eat anything but things like mangos, apples, pears, bananas and wild blackberries, bilberries, raspberries and strawberries when those were in season (and a great family day out wandering through the hills & woods of West Wales looking for them). We were worried because she seemed to want to be fruitarian!

    We read a few books on bringing up vegan kids, but I think that as long as you keep a good varied diet you shouldn't really have too much problem. You can introduce supplements into her foods (and indeed your own!) such as plant derived omega 3,6 or 9 oils which are apparently important for proper brain development in young children and which she might lack once you cut out the fish. Here in the U.K. you can buy organic cold-pressed oils from flax, hemp, evening primrose etc from Granovita and I am sure you will be able to find these in The Netherlands or Canada - you might have to mail order if living a bit out of the way.

    Sadly my daughter now eats meat - myself and her mother separated about 3 years ago, and her mother's views are very different now to when we met. I still give my daughter mostly vegan food when she is with me, but allow her a few veggie things like croissants which she has a particular fondness for. I have no regrets about bringing her up vegan initially, she was always 'brighter' and above average in the various development tests that the health visitors used to carry out in the first couple of years of life or so and she is a very intelligent, socialable, inquistive child to this day.

    The 'food at parties' issue is a complex one. I am a bit more pragmatic about that, as most parties will have vegetarian food. If you insist on her only eating vegan food, she may not get it from other parents as they might simply just not know that something is 'only' veggie rather than vegan, it might create some kind of hostility and may come across as being rude or arrogant on your part. It is one of those questions that there is no easy answer for. Just wait until she is a bit older and gets invited to a meat-eating friend's party at MacDonalds !

    Anyway, I would definitely encourage you to go ahead with the vegan diet for your daughter, you can always change back if you think it isn't working. Please also feel free to get in touch if you have any questions. I don't have all the answers but will help as best I can.

    Sion.

  8. #8
    Melina
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Thanks everyone, this has been very helpful!!!

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    Default Re: vegan babies

    There is a great book called Raising Vegan Children in a Non-Vegan World by Erin Pavlina that addresses issues like what to do at friend's houses, school, parties etc... It's available at Veg Family which is a terrific resource for parents of vegan children or parents interested in veganism for their children. My kids are just beginning to eat solids meaning not jarred baby foods and they enjoy beans both whole cooked beans like chickpeas and they love lentils either in soup or stew with some peas and brown rice. Neither of them like stuff that isn't mushy so I do puree the cooked beans though Ben just ate his first whole chickpeas yesterday and he was really enjoying some whole-grain vegan cereal this past weekend. Me and my husband have accepted that our children will be different but since we're both pretty crazy in our own right-I never thought our kids would be considered "mainstream" anyway. If normal is raising a child who thinks a McDonald's french fry counts as a vegetable and ice cream is their favorite source of calcium, then I'd rather not raise a "normal" child .

  10. #10
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Hi Melina
    This is just to say, tofu's a good food for babies.
    And most kids love houmous.

    My 3 kids have all been vegan for their whole lives and they're all fine.
    It's definitely been the right diet for them!

    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  11. #11
    Melina
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Feline, I'm going to get that book. My husband and I have agreed we are going to raise her vegan. What happens when she is older, and can think for herself... ? I will not be able to control what goes into her mouth all the time, and instead of her tasting non-vegan foods out of curiosity, hiding, lying, and then feeling guilty about it (which I read somewhere is what often happens)... I am going to educate her, set an example, and hope for the best. I think that is really all I can do. If she wants to eat dairy & meat when she gets older, I will not stop her. Her father is going to continue eating meat he says. I'd like to see that change but at the same time, I love him and need to accept him for who he is and where he is at. I was not always a vegan. I think people join us when they are ready and he just is not ready yet although he is eating more and more vegan and becoming more conscious.
    Anyhow, I have started feeding our daughter more and more vegan foods. She's happily eating potatos, beans, lentils, peas, carrots, tofu, brown rice, lots of fruit, dates, soy milk, soy yogurt, calcium-fortified orange juice, etc, etc. Luckily I do not have a finicky eater, she loves almost everything I offer her! I am getting more and more ideas from off the internet and this forum, and it's all been good. I'm just wondering about the B12 and Omega's. I heard flax oil is a good source of Omega 3, a teaspoon a day for adults, 1/4 teaspoon for her? Is flax the same as linseed? I read it's good to add this to her juice? She is drinking B-12 fortified soy milk, still I feel I should get her a supplement just to be on the safe side? I have no idea about vitamin supplements for babies. I am going to visit the healthfood store as soon as possible and inquire about these things but if you all have any advice it would be greatly appreciated!

  12. #12
    feline01's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    We've been giving our two about 1/2 teaspoon of organic flax seed oil a day since they were about 2 months, in their organic soy formula. Linseed oil is not the same thing. We haven't supplemented their B-12 because their formula is fortified and they were breastfeeding (up to yesterday, I weaned completely ). I will be looking into B-12 supplements though once they start weaning off their soy formula. From my research, I think we'll probably be giving them multivitamins once they are off of the soy formula or if it reduces significantly. Once you move to CA, it's very easy to purchase vegan children's multivitamins. Pangea, Vegan Essentials and a Different Daisy are great sources for kids vegan vitamins.

    I think you have to just do what you suggested: teach them well and hope they make the right decisions when they are older. That comes to anything whether its avoiding animal products or using drugs-whatever.

    I'll try to PM you a great guide for vegan children that veganblue had sent me months ago, I just have to find it on my hard-drive.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    As far as I know, flaxseed and linseed are the same thing.

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    Quote John
    As far as I know, flaxseed and linseed are the same thing.
    Oops, I just googled and you're right, John, it's the same . I guess I was thinking of furniture polish vs. Omega-3 laden oil not thinking they were the same .

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    John's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    It's a miracle plant.

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    Quote Melina
    Thanks for all your messages & support! I especially like what you say Imapeach, really got me thinking, I don't want her to be raised as a mindless "generic child" and yes you are right, it is good to open her eyes to the world at an early age. I really needed to hear that!
    Dianecrna, thanks so much for your compliments!!!!
    I'm originally from northern Quebec, Canada. I am used to having a lot of space and access to wilderness. Holland is a tiny, overpopulated country with no nature to speak of. Everything here is artificial; straight man-made canals, trees all planted in straight rows. Nothing is natural and there is no place to go, to get away from people. I am an outdoorsy person and my spirit needs wilderness to escape into, which is impossible here. It's overcrowded, the cost of living is astronomical, and frankly I cannot get used to the mentality of the people (I've been here 3 years). I find them to be extremely in-your-face, blunt, and rude. And there is a lack of respect for personal space and privacy here. We are moving because my husband got a job offer in Dawson Creek (he's Dutch but has fallen in love with Canada and wants to leave as much as I do!), he can make much more money in his profession over there, plus the cost of living is much lower, so we'll be better off in so many ways. I want my children to know what nature is. Here, they can only see animals in zoos.
    i agree, the flat netherlands is awful. i lived there for more than 4 years. people are rude, arrogant, hyprocritical, and racist!!! not to mention it's so vegan unfriendly, very dairy, cheesy.

  17. #17
    Melina
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    Question Re: vegan babies

    What part of the country were you in?

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    Quote Melina
    What part of the country were you in?
    the extreme boring Eindhoven. the whole town basically runs by Philips.

  19. #19
    Melina
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    I'm further to the north, which is even more boring! And yes it is extremely dairy-mad here. Luckily though we have a good line of soy milks, yogurts, puddings, ice creams which I believe are imported from Finland.
    Well I purchashed the linseed (flax) oil for her and am giving her 1/2 teaspoon daily in her calcium fortified orange juice which she loves. I'm guessing she can't taste it! She is off the formula completely and drinking B12-fortified soy milk, getting right around her daily requirement so I am questioning whether it is wise to get her supplements. Can you get too many vitamins and is this harmful? She is eating a very well-balanced diet. I have been gathering lots of wonderful vegan recipes from the internet and she loves everything I make, as long as it is well-cooked, soft enough for her to "gum" (she only has two teeth in the front!), and presented to her in small pieces. This is working out great. My husband is being so supportive and I am so grateful for that! Thanks for all your input!

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    we are so glad that we moved to London! it's such a wonderful vegan friendly place. so many nice vegetarian restaurants to go (but not many vegan ones).

    my daughter is still on soy formula. why? she's such a picky eater. she only likes pure water; rice and raw onion sometimes. when we feed her other solid food, she can chew but just doesn't want to shallow. sometimes the food would stay in her mouth for 2 hours! it's been so difficult. however, we just don't know how she does it, she is so plum and round, growing nicely, very active and wise, but stubborn like hell!

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    feline01's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Quote dahmin
    my daughter is still on soy formula. why? she's such a picky eater. she only likes pure water; rice and raw onion sometimes. when we feed her other solid food, she can chew but just doesn't want to shallow. sometimes the food would stay in her mouth for 2 hours! it's been so difficult. however, we just don't know how she does it, she is so plum and round, growing nicely, very active and wise, but stubborn like hell!
    Now that is interesting. My son, who only has 3 teeth, has now started chewing organic cereal and beans and eats them while my daughter, who has about 8 teeth, just plays with the food in her mouth and won't chew or swallow. She just pulls it out of her mouth again. Neither seem to overjoyed in "regular" table food, they prefer baby food. Oh well, I guess it's just a matter of time-they are only 12 1/2 months old.

  22. #22
    Melina
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    I think it's so interesting and wonderful how even at this young age, babies are all so different.

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    kokopelli's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Although linseed oil and flax seed oil ARE from the same plant, I doubt whether the linseed oil sold in hardware shops is food-grade

    I don't think you'd need to give your daughter extra vitamins as long as she's getting B12 and is eating a well-balanced diet.

    In my experience, kids raised as vegans don't want to eat non-vegan food once they're old enough to understand the issues anyway. My kids are very careful label-readers and get more upset than I do if they accidentally eat something with non-vegan ingredients.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  24. #24
    feline01's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    I was talking to my husband today about how we're always thinking of what we're going to feed the kids and how to make their diets the healthiest. I realized that none of the omnivore parents I know think that way when they are feeding their children. It's more of a "if it's okay for me, it's okay for them" even if it's heavily processed, sodium and fat laden, full of artificial colors and flavors junk. I thought of my kids, who eat beans, brown rice, nutritional yeast, flax oil, fruit and veggies, oatmeal, whole-grain cereal, rice and almond milk and organic soy formula and wonder how any health professional, in their right mind, could think that sort of diet is anything but the most healthy diet out there.

    In my opinion, it's almost neglect to not feed your child a well-balanced vegan diet.

  25. #25
    kokopelli's Avatar
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    Quote feline01
    In my opinion, it's almost neglect to not feed your child a well-balanced vegan diet.
    I totally agree, feline

    Well, not exactly 'neglect' maybe, but from my own experience, my kids seem to be much fitter and healthier than any omni kids we know.
    It always seems weird to me that people get so uptight about parents raising kids as vegans, as if the normal diet is so wonderfully health-promoting, and veganism is somehow dangerous, when experience seems to prove the opposite is actually true.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  26. #26
    feline01's Avatar
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    Neglect wasn't quite the word I was looking for but I did mean if you really think about what you are feeding your child, how could a parent now want to raise them vegan.

  27. #27
    kokopelli's Avatar
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    Well I suppose it's just that people have eaten animal produce and seen it as necessary for so long, it's kind of mind-bending to realise it's absolutely unnecessary for health.

    When I became vegan, my aunt who was a health education professional warned me against it, saying 'you should really drink some milk', but I took no notice, and now 24 years (or something..) later, she's seen me raise three perfectly healthy vegan kids, so she's had to change her mind.

    But I suppose it makes people feel safe to stick with what they know, within the 'normal' parameters, without really questioning. In fact, I've found that people involved in health services are often particularly dogmatic and conservative, probably because they fear being blamed when things go wrong, if they step outside the established orthodoxy. And so they stay 'on the safe side' and don't advocate veganism, even if they're always on about 'increasing fresh fruit and vegetables in the diet' etc.

    And pregnancy and child-rearing is the time when women come under heavy scrutiny from the health services, and you have to be quite strong-willed and determined to stand up to their 'advice' and general pressure to conform. I did find my first pregnancy somewhat stressful because of not being 'normal', wanting a home birth etc. and having to argue my case all the time, so it was a bit of a struggle.

    I've always thought it's strange, though, like you said, that parents can feed their kids the McDonald's type diet without pressure, while vegans have to continually justify themselves. And it seemed to be OK to want be anaesthetised during childbirth, but dodgy to want a natural birth. And OK to wean your baby at 6 weeks, but dodgy to keep breastfeeding them past nine months. But at least we're educating those sceptical health professionals by example!
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  28. #28

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    Default Re: vegan babies

    I also feel that I put more effort into my child's diet than most omnis I know.
    I make my own cereal bars full of oats, seeds and dried fruit for her to take to school for a snack, and it was odd when I recently popped into school to see her with her food and virtually all the other children with their chocolate bars and white bread. I recently gave her some strawberries with her lunch, and apparently it caused quite a stir.


    She eats vegan at home, and at the age she is now (nearly 6) she's really getting into cooking, deciding what herbs she wants from the garden to put in her chick pea burgers, etc.
    However, when she goes to birthday parties she doesn't eat meat, but I don't want her to view this lifestyle as one that excludes her from these little rituals until she has the security and confidence to make her own descision. So, she rarely touches things like sandwiches at parties anyway, so really it's just a case of having a piece of birthday cake and the like.

    Btw, when she was four she went to a party at McDonalds, and she just had some fries and a coke. I hadn't said much to her about it beforehand, although I would have stepped in if I'd seen her asking for a burger when the lady came round, but as it was, nothing about the burgers being eaten by the people around her prompted her to ask for one anyway.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Quote kokopelli
    I've always thought it's strange, though, like you said, that parents can feed their kids the McDonald's type diet without pressure, while vegans have to continually justify themselves. And it seemed to be OK to want be anaesthetised during childbirth, but dodgy to want a natural birth. And OK to wean your baby at 6 weeks, but dodgy to keep breastfeeding them past nine months. But at least we're educating those sceptical health professionals by example!
    I love that response someone had suggested on here awhile ago and I use it. When someone asks me how can I be sure my kids are getting enough protein, calcium blah-blah-blah eating vegan-I ask them how much should a child their age be getting. Most parents haven't a clue yet they are always concerned my kids aren't "getting enough."

    I've said this so many times before on this forum and still feel it but my biggest regret in my life so far is that I was not able to exclusively breastfeed my kids. Most mainstream parents just don't understand how I could be so concerned about that but when I had to switch from exclusively breastfeeding to supplementing with organic soy formula, I was devastated and still am to this day. I stopped breastfeeding completely this month, a bit after their 1st birthday. It was so frustrating knowing that they weren't getting much from it except comfort. Not that comfort isn't important but it was taking too much out of me.

  30. #30

    Default Re: vegan babies

    If you have any questions about raising vegan children, pm me. My son is 9 years and a bit over a month now, tall for his age, slim but strong, does karate and yoga, plays football, never ever stops running around. He has a reading age of over 16 (they can't judge it on kids tests anymore) speaks three languages (English French and Irish, not to mention a bit of Punjabi and Chinese) and is one of the happiest and most compassionate kids I know. Some of the other kids do think he is different, but then he has some very good friends, some of whom he has converted vegan and veggie. And the one time he was in a fight at school to save a spider from having her legs pulled off all the other kids decided that they loved him. He is a very popular kid, despite being outspokenly vegan.

    Oh aye, and he is a chess freak too. Little so and so has started to beat me occasionally!

    There is nothing wrong with being different. I wouldn't let other parents feed your child what they want though - I would just send him with vegan goodies. Enough for your child and theirs to try some too.

    When she is older she can make a choice free of the brainwashing and conditioning which most kids have to struggle through. And she will be much much healthier.

    Conscious Cuisine is well worth writing to as well.

  31. #31
    kokopelli's Avatar
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    Default Re: vegan babies

    Quote feline01
    I've said this so many times before on this forum and still feel it but my biggest regret in my life so far is that I was not able to exclusively breastfeed my kids. Most mainstream parents just don't understand how I could be so concerned about that but when I had to switch from exclusively breastfeeding to supplementing with organic soy formula, I was devastated and still am to this day. I stopped breastfeeding completely this month, a bit after their 1st birthday. It was so frustrating knowing that they weren't getting much from it except comfort. Not that comfort isn't important but it was taking too much out of me.
    Feline, I really think you shouldn't beat yourself up over this! You're amazing! It must be so much harder having twins anyway, twice as much work physically and twice as much demand on your metabolism. And I bet it wasn't just comfort they were getting...even a tiny bit of your milk probably has special qualities! You're doing a great job, and proving to all around you that veganism's the healthiest choice for kids. The fact you supplemented with formula also proves that option is healthy, to anyone who's sceptical, and to other mothers who may find themselves in the position of not being able to nurse, for whatever reason.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  32. #32
    ConsciousCuisine
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    Quote kokopelli
    Feline, I really think you shouldn't beat yourself up over this! You're amazing! It must be so much harder having twins anyway, twice as much work physically and twice as much demand on your metabolism. And I bet it wasn't just comfort they were getting...even a tiny bit of your milk probably has special qualities! You're doing a great job, and proving to all around you that veganism's the healthiest choice for kids. The fact you supplemented with formula also proves that option is healthy, to anyone who's sceptical, and to other mothers who may find themselves in the position of not being able to nurse, for whatever reason.
    ^^ Yes, yes and YES! Please know your babies got both nurturing *and* nutrition from you! Every drop counted. Look at how perfect your babies are- you are a great mommie and your husband a great daddy!

  33. #33
    Nemo
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    Quote Realfood Mary
    He has a reading age of over 16
    I hope this doesn't mean he's reading so called "lad-mags" such as FHM and the like. You see.. the avarage reading level of today's 16 year old boys is *very* low and it's honestly not hard to do better than it.

    But anyway... I remember that around the age of nine to twelve I was reading books like Lord of the Rings and some classics in the vein of Dickens and Steinbeck.

    I was also tested as having a vocabulary equal to (,or better than) those of university students.

    I was privatly tutored at home, rather than be subjected to the same blanket teaching methods applied to lage classes of mixed children in schools. Which is a rather poor way to teach people, when you think that we're all individuals and have individual requirements when it comes to education.

    Plus, I didn't have to mix with the common riff raff one finds in most schools.
    (I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but I'm sure most people will agree that there is a great deal of chaff in scocity today, and it may not be the best of ideas to surround oneself with such while trying to receive an education)


    PS: I was born and raised as a vegan.

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    Quote Nemo
    I was privatly tutored at home, rather than be subjected to the same blanket teaching methods applied to lage classes of mixed children in schools. Which is a rather poor way to teach people, when you think that we're all individuals and have individual requirements when it comes to education.

    Plus, I didn't have to mix with the common riff raff one finds in most schools.
    (I'm not trying to sound elitist here, but I'm sure most people will agree that there is a great deal of chaff in scocity today, and it may not be the best of ideas to surround oneself with such while trying to receive an education)


    My nearly six year old only attends school part times as at first, it as too much for her, and I found that where she had previously been happy to write and be academically curious at home, when she started full time school that went out the window, and it was hell to even get her to do her homework.
    I wanted her to stop associating learning solely with school, so now she only goes Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and I teach her at home for the other days. Almost immediately she seemed to come back to life, and started up with the usual wacky requests to learn Japanese (I don't know where I'd be without language software) and asking questions about the Romans.

    Although, I like that she mixes with the other kids though, the 'riff-raff' included, even if it is detriment to her speech sometimes and I have to go back to reminding her about 'H's'.

  35. #35

    Default Re: vegan babies

    Nah, Séamus doesn't read lad mags. He reads everything else though.

    Wow, the Netherlands is full of racists is it? Who would have thunk it. It sounds a bit of a racist thing to say, actually... Okay, it is full of animal abuse, but so is every other country in the world.

    London has at least 9 pure vegan restaurants that I can think of off the top of my head, so a good place to be. (If you don't mind the overcrowding.)

    I was going to agree wholeheartedly with Kokopelli and Feline01 about raising kids vegan. It would be irresponsible not to, when you consider the physical and emotional damage of raising your child a meat eater. Can you remember how you felt when you realised you were eating corpses? Do you want your children to feel that sense of betrayal and horror? Then, in order to justify why their parents lied to them they have to squash their most compassionate principles, and despise animals. They are just there for meat.

    Do you really want your child to have to go through the emotional trauma we did to go vegan?

    Finally, I wanted to take issue with the idea that sending children to school exposes them to riff raff. My son goes to a main stream school, and has converted several other kids veggie and vegan. None of the children he has been to school with were "riff raff", though some come from deprived backgrounds. His teacher has told me that he has a positive influence on the class, and that they behave better on his table, because he helps them with their work. By exposing them to him I think sending him to school has done a world of good - as my friendship with Solé did for me when I was a little girl. She was vegan, and is one of my positive influences. We were nine when we met.

    I don't like the idea of a "vegan elite", or of veganism being so difficult that you can "always go back." No you can't - not if you want to be morally consistent. And surely if you want to raise your kids right you should raise them in the most moral way possible. Besides which, veganism is healthier.

    Séamus checks all ingredients, talks to everyone about why he is vegan, and would never want to eat flesh or animal derived foods. He knows what it is, and as he puts it: "I'm not a thief." When I asked him to elaborate he said, "if you eat a dead animal you've stolen everything they ever had. All we've got is our lives."

    That was when he was eight.

    Children raised vegan who know why they're vegan don't want to go back, as K said. All by himself Séamus has created enough peer pressure that in his last school he got 13 kids from his class to boycott the meat at dinner time. Raise your kids with the courage of your convictions, if you want them to have courage. And don't keep them away from society. Home educating is great, and I seriously considered it. But it is not the only option, and sometimes it is not the best option. There are more vegans in the world today because I sent my son to school.

  36. #36
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    Quote Realfood Mary
    Séamus checks all ingredients, talks to everyone about why he is vegan, and would never want to eat flesh or animal derived foods. He knows what it is, and as he puts it: "I'm not a thief." When I asked him to elaborate he said, "if you eat a dead animal you've stolen everything they ever had. All we've got is our lives."
    What a great son!

  37. #37
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    Quote Nivvie
    My nearly six year old only attends school part times as at first, it as too much for her, and I found that where she had previously been happy to write and be academically curious at home, when she started full time school that went out the window, and it was hell to even get her to do her homework.
    I wanted her to stop associating learning solely with school, so now she only goes Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and I teach her at home for the other days. Almost immediately she seemed to come back to life, and started up with the usual wacky requests to learn Japanese (I don't know where I'd be without language software) and asking questions about the Romans.

    Although, I like that she mixes with the other kids though, the 'riff-raff' included, even if it is detriment to her speech sometimes and I have to go back to reminding her about 'H's'.
    Hey Nivvie!
    My daughter's learning Japanese too! She's 12. We're doing the Oxford 'Take Off in Japanese' course, what are you using? She loves Akira Kurosawa films and origami, and Japanese culture in general, but the language learning goes in fits and starts of enthusiasm.

    Realfood Mary,
    I agree that vegan kids are a positive influence on the other kids around them, but sometimes I think it can be hard on kids to be different all the time. Personally, my main objection to the mainstream school system is the regimentation and weird target-driven universally applied curriculum. The good thing about kids learning at home is that they can get really absorbed in what they're learning and spend as long as they like doing it without interruption. They can develop unexpected interests and obsessions...for example, my middle kid is now 17 and was slow to become fully literate, so that he'd probably have been labelled 'slow' if he'd gone to school, but he always had an amazing intuitive knowledge of mechanics (something he wouldn't have had the chance to practice in a school environment), and now he can do major tractor and car repairs and he's taught himself to weld. He buys obscure welding handbooks from the 1930s on Ebay and has become something of an expert. The way kids can become proficient without formal tuition is a constant source of amazement and inspiration to me.

    It also makes me think that there are probably a lot of boys with similar disposition who become alienated at an early age by the school system, and end up feeling like failures and getting into trouble when they probably have the potential to develop all sorts of useful talents which aren't recognised or fostered by the competitive academic education system.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
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  38. #38

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    Quote Realfood Mary
    Finally, I wanted to take issue with the idea that sending children to school exposes them to riff raff. My son goes to a main stream school, and has converted several other kids veggie and vegan. None of the children he has been to school with were "riff raff", though some come from deprived backgrounds.
    We have major 'riff raff' round here.
    A kid in my daughter's class told the teacher to 'F**k off' just the other day, and he's only 5!
    Apparently, he's always saying that, and just the thin edge of the wedge. I hear some major horror stories from the mums of older kids, and my friend who's a teacher in Nottingham, well, yikes is all I keep finding myself saying.
    I have nothing but resepct for anyone who chooses to go into teaching these days.

  39. #39

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    Quote kokopelli
    Hey Nivvie!
    My daughter's learning Japanese too! She's 12. We're doing the Oxford 'Take Off in Japanese' course, what are you using? She loves Akira Kurosawa films and origami, and Japanese culture in general, but the language learning goes in fits and starts of enthusiasm.
    We have 'Talk Now' japanese, which is pretty simple, but I really do love the 'Take Off' range, I got a great Russian course in that.
    She loves the culture too, and it all started with Miyazaki films. She saw Princess Mononoke and fell in love, and me too!

  40. #40
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    That's exactly along the lines why me and my husband want to homeschool. The curriculum in the US is so ethnocentric and it wasn't until long after I left college and started reading "alternative" books, magazines and websites as well as travelling that I learned many things that were never taught in mainstream educational systems. For example, I shouldn't have had to travel to Europe to learn all about the WWII Resistance movement that my school never taught me. I want my kids to develop their own educational style and interests like kokopelli's children did. I don't want them turned into mini-corporate raiders with their only goal in life to make money (not that I wouldn't mind if they found a calling that earned them a decent living ).

    And where I live, I just can't imagine our kids getting the attention any child needs and deserves from a teacher in a classroom that has 30 students .

  41. #41

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    Quote feline01
    And where I live, I just can't imagine our kids getting the attention any child needs and deserves from a teacher in a classroom that has 30 students .
    A friend of mine has a kid in a local high school and there's 30 computers in the room, but as he was the last one in, bringing the class up to 31, he has to wait until another child is ill to get access. Then, he gets teachers reprimanding him for not finishing his computer work!
    My friend went to the school and complained, but still, things are the same.

  42. #42
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    Quote Nivvie
    We have 'Talk Now' japanese, which is pretty simple, but I really do love the 'Take Off' range, I got a great Russian course in that.
    She loves the culture too, and it all started with Miyazaki films. She saw Princess Mononoke and fell in love, and me too!
    My kids love those Miyazaki films too! I've only seen bits of them, but they look great! I saw a bit of 'My Neighbour Totorro' (sp) and I really want to see the rest when I get a chance...it's so beautiful and I love the way he highlights the simple pleasures of childhood and nature

    The Akira Kurosawa films are more grown-up with some violent scenes, but The Seven Samurai is amazing, and Red Beard. They're set in the samurai times, with absolute authenticity in the sets and costumes.
    once in a while you can get shown the light
    in the strangest of places if you look at it right

  43. #43

    Default Re: vegan babies

    Actually, if I was raising my child in America I would definitely be home educating. The curriculum is even more limited than over here. To all intents and purposes Séamus is home educated, since everything he has picked up he has picked up from the home. He knew his alphabet at one, because I sang through the book with him every day. He could read several one syllable words (cat, dog, pig, bird, fish, bed) and two two syllable words (baby, spider). He was a fluent reader when he started school. He tried to read the Hobbit at five, and stopped at the chapter with Gollum because it was too scary. But he understood it up to there.

    Now we are lucky that we are living in an area with a high proportion of Hindus and Sikhs - a lot of kids in his current school are veggie, or sympathetic to it, unlike when we lived in Toxteth. (Where the riots were...) Séamus doesn't have to be always different.

    I don't think a child is riff raff for telling a teacher to eff off. Some of them deserve it. I argued with teachers in primary school. (Okay, it was a catholic school, and generally the teachers were belting me, which thank god doesn't happen in this country anymore.) And besides, if a five year old is using language like that then the child is a victim. The parents are obviously not raising him or her right, so it is unfair to label the child.

    I mentioned on another thread that "chavs" (a term of abuse in the UK for "white trash" I suppose, though they aren't all white) are human too. I met a fourteen year old who is terribly foul mouthed, been abused since infancy, covered with cigarette burns from before he was rescued and put into foster care. He has just gone vegan.

    Okay, he got in trouble for writing obscene grafitti all over the toilets at McDonald's but at least his heart is in the right place.

    What I am saying is that people are people, even riff raff. I was an obnoxious meat head once. Now I am an obnoxious vegan campaigner. People change. (Oh, and thank you for the compliment, Séamus is wonderful!!!)

  44. #44

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    Quote Realfood Mary
    I don't think a child is riff raff for telling a teacher to eff off. Some of them deserve it. I argued with teachers in primary school. (Okay, it was a catholic school, and generally the teachers were belting me, which thank god doesn't happen in this country anymore.) And besides, if a five year old is using language like that then the child is a victim. The parents are obviously not raising him or her right, so it is unfair to label the child.
    I didn't want to go into the facts of the matter too much but the situation was the boy was being asked to come back to his table. The teachers are so politially correct and discipline virtually non-existant. There is almost nothing to argue with, they talk out ever problems and even hold mini-mediated-tribunals for bullying issues.
    My problem is that my child then comes home swearing, spitting and the like. I complained to the school but the headmaster told me the only punishment available to them is keeping children in a play. he admits that means virtually nothing to most kids, so there's little point.

    Labels may be unfortunate, but whether you use them or not does not change the behaviour of the person being labelled, and as there are always going to be labels for classes and sections of society, it's a losing battle.

    Calling all the kids who spit in teachers faces and even stab other kids round here 'troubled' instead of 'violent thugs' doesn't change their behaviour. Simply re-branding the issue is not enough. Sure, we recognise that there are underlying issues, all the nurture arguments, but this is one of those areas where I believe politial correctness goes too far. Solutions are what's needed, not nit-picking.

    This is one hell of a violent but tiny village, last year we had two murderers hiding out in the woods.
    In the village up the road a little boy died after drinking his dad's methadone. The dad, (not the child, he hadn't done anything wrong) to me, is obviously in need of help, but also, IMO, riff raff.

    I'm sorry, I just can't help it, but these people are exhibiting behaviour that I label, just as many use the label 'hunt scum', as is fit to their behaviour.

  45. #45

    Default Re: vegan babies

    I wouldn't label a five year old. I imagine you wouldn't label your five year old "riff raff" either when he comes home spitting and swearing. He is obviously picking up bad vibes at school - that is why he behaves badly, not because he is "riff raff". The other kid isn't riff raff either. He has obviously got something causing him to behave like this. The fact of labelling a child makes them live up to that label. You love your child, and are supportive, so I am sure your child will be fine. But what about the other five year old you called "riff raff". He is not stabbing people yet, is he? He is only five. And yet the assumption is already there that he will fail. Children listen to their elders. They take in everything. Your son takes in the fact that you love him, and that should be his salvation, as it is for many people who grow up loved. What about a child who doesn't have that?

    For the record, I am not particularly pc, and I hate liberal wishy washy do gooders who children don't respect. But I do work with children. I do animal rights workshops with kids of all ages and classes. The way middle class kids "act out" is often different from but as bad as the way working class kids "act out." But it is easy to instill discipline in any class. A teacher who can't instill discipline in a class has failed in their duty. You are right to blame the teacher, but not the child. After all, who is the adult in the equation? Both my father and brother are teachers, and I have worked as an English teacher in the past (teaching French kids English.) The middle class kids of French diplomats and politicians were the worst behaved group of children I ever had to deal with, and they needed a firm hand.

    However, I didn't need to shout at them, or even punish them particularly. By the end of the first week they were all of them behaving. Because even though I thought they often behaved like spoilt brats I knew they were more than that, and treated them accordingly.

    I don't think the school can be a happy environment for your son if he is coming back exhibiting behaviour like that. When I was five that was how I came back from school - not swearing, but throwing myself on the floor and screaming. I didn't tell my mother for years what had been going on. (Teachers name calling, and being smacked.) It seems to me that you need to keep a close eye on what is really going on in the school. Your son seems stressed by the school environment, and that is the schools fault, not yours or his. I hope you are not to distressed by it all.

    Also I hope that you are not offended by my comments. This is just my experience with schools. And I do understand your frustration.

  46. #46

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    Quote Realfood Mary
    I wouldn't label a five year old. I imagine you wouldn't label your five year old "riff raff" either when he comes home spitting and swearing. He is obviously picking up bad vibes at school - that is why he behaves badly, not because he is "riff raff". The other kid isn't riff raff either. He has obviously got something causing him to behave like this. The fact of labelling a child makes them live up to that label. You love your child, and are supportive, so I am sure your child will be fine. But what about the other five year old you called "riff raff". He is not stabbing people yet, is he? He is only five. And yet the assumption is already there that he will fail. Children listen to their elders. They take in everything. Your son takes in the fact that you love him, and that should be his salvation, as it is for many people who grow up loved. What about a child who doesn't have that?



    I don't think the school can be a happy environment for your son if he is coming back exhibiting behaviour like that. When I was five that was how I came back from school - not swearing, but throwing myself on the floor and screaming. I didn't tell my mother for years what had been going on. (Teachers name calling, and being smacked.) It seems to me that you need to keep a close eye on what is really going on in the school. Your son seems stressed by the school environment, and that is the schools fault, not yours or his. I hope you are not to distressed by it all.
    Whoa there.
    A, I have a daughter, and B, all she did was say the f**k in play as she tripped over her sandpit, and I asked her where she heard it.
    She is only at school three days a week, and it has never been her behaviour I have complained about to the school.
    She spat once and I asked her what she was doing, she said at school some of the kids have spitting competitions, and I told her not to do it again, end of story.
    She doesn't come home stressed in any way, in fact, now she has time away, she positively enjoys her time there.

    You are making a of a lot of judgements about a situation that you don't have the details of.
    Our child and her happiness is not something you can make guesses at. I didn't give enough details of her spitting and swearing for you to draw any conclusions that weren't assumptions.

    You are also making the assumption that people are branding the boy in question to his face and that he has no choices, but the fact is he come from a well off family who if anything, spoil him, get him help, and his mother has even given up work to be there for him, but he still persists.
    Yes, he's five, and therefore not fully aware of the situation, but it's also fair that I am concerned about my daughter in his presence.


    You yourself in the 'Vegan wristbands' thread used the words 'hunt scum'.
    We label people, it's what we do as humans and always will, it doesn't always have to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I said nothing of the sort that I assume he will fail. I have said nothing to my child about him other than she shouldn't copy him.
    My daughter knows from her own family that most of us have weathered storms and had bumpy beginnings, if I was to live up to the label given to me as a child, well, I'd be a very different person.

    I have called him and the gangs of kids like him (and some of similar age)that steal people cats just to kill them and set fire to people's houses riff-raff on a forum. I don't march about my village pointing the finger and 'branding'.
    It's my own personal opinion about the people whom I am not pre-judging, rather I'm judging on the basis of the evidence around me.

    I don't know what you want me to say.
    We are obviously never going to agree. I don't judge 'riff-raff' by class but by behaviour, and will continue to do so. And if he ever did stab someone, I'd call him more than riff-raff.
    I label people.
    Maybe not to their face to even say it to others, but I do it.

  47. #47

    Default Re: vegan babies

    Hi there.

    We obviously agree on one thing! People who go around killing (like hunt scum, who I call to their faces) deserve the label. Adults who are unrepentantly evil (and I do believe that some people become evil, and can chose not to) deserve to be labelled. On the other hand I do feel sorry for their kids. I should point out that I am a hunt saboteur amongst other things, and when you have seen animals killed in front of you it seems immoral to moderate your language to avoid hurting people's feeling. I think most people on this board would judge hunt scum. It doesn't seem fair to five year olds. Even the children of hunt scum who have spat at me and thrown stones at me while I have been out sabbing deserve my pity. There is still someone in there who could be saved in a better environment. It is too late for their parents, generally speaking.

    I apologise completely if I seem to have judged your child, which was never the intention. (My own child being a boy I am more inclined to guess male, and I guess I showed unconscious sexism, because generally when I have taught that age group it has been the boys who spat.) It was based on the fact that you said she came home "swearing and spitting," I didn't realise she had only done it once. It seems like you handled it ideally. If as I wrongly inferred from your previous post she had done it regularly then she would have been showing stress. I jumped to conclusions because of my own bad experiences at primary school. Sorry about that.

    Perhaps the boy in question has ADD? Apparently five percent of kids have it, and every school in the US and UK has at least one kid per class affected. This is often diet related.

    Of course this doesn't help your daughter in the school, but as I said earlier she has a good mother, and should therefore be able to weather any storms. And you say she enjoys the school, so it seems like a misunderstanding all round.

    Hopefully you can accept my apology, which is completely sincere.

  48. #48

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    No probs Mary.
    One of the problems with the internet is it's hard to give or get a full picture.

  49. #49

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    That's true. And if we were talking face to face we would have intonation, body language etc, and it would be easier to tell how we were feeling about what we were saying. I understand a lot better now what you were talking about, and am very glad that this is a grown up forum! Thank you for not being offended.

    Something very sad on the British news today. We were bringing my son to the train station so that he could see his Dad. On the radio we heard that a group of children, aged 12 to 13, attempted to murder a little five year old boy. One of the suspects has been let out of custody, because she is a child.

    The boy suffered cuts, bruises, rope burns, ligature marks to his throat. He was tortured by these children for about half an hour until they thought they had killed him.

    So yes, some young people are worse than riff raff. They are evil.

  50. #50

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    That freaked me out when I heard about it.

    I can understand one sociopath child doing something terrible, or maybe a mob getting cought up in the heat of a violent and explosive situation, be swept up in a war or influenced by racial hatred, but I can't understand how a group of kids can make a plan, and calmly decide what they are going to do.
    Surely one of them must have thought to say 'Hang on, this is murder? Why the hell are we doing this?'
    How come none of them were touched by the child's pain?

    Something is very, very wrong.

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