Thoughts on B12

[Howlek]

I've read that B12 can only be obtained from meat and dairy products or fortified foods, like soymilk or cereal. This must only be half the truth. If other animals have B12 in their meat/milk/eggs, they must obtain it from somewhere. Go down the food chain, and obviously, either plants or the bacteria that reside inside us are responsible for the production of B12. I'm hardly even knowledgable about B12, but it seems to me that vegans should be fine as long as they have a healthy balance of bacteria and eat a balanced plant-based diet. I for one drink soymilk, so I am not so worried, but I also believe that too much of anything can be harmful and point out that there is evidence that soy can harm thyroid function and cause the diseases it is touted as preventing.

Any thoughts/insights?

[Cherry]

I believe that b12 is not produced by any the bacteria that reside inside us, so we need supplements. Vitamin K is certainly produced by bacteria inside us.

I think (any experts out there?) that it is produced by some of the bacteria that inhabit soil, at least in warmer climes. I don't think eating the soil would be a very good plan though!

B12 is added to loads of vegan foods these days (stock, margarine, cereals, soya mince etc). I'd be interested to hear what other vegans think, but as I eat a lot of these I don't worry unless I start feeling droopy, when I take a b12 tablet.

[Rhiannon]

I read that B12 is produced in the intestine by bacteria but it is produced too far down the colon to be absorbed and used. As far as i can gather from what ive read, there are no plant sources of B12.

I found this page, which explains what i said better http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

[Howlek]

Yes, I guess the third option would be that micro-organisms in the soil produce B12, but that they do not survive in our bodies. I'd be interested to know where the B12 in vitamin suppliments comes from. I suppose probiotics might be the answer for vegans who do not eat fortified foods or take suppliments. It just doesn't seem logical that vegans should have to take a pill. I imagine our primate anscestors would have eaten very little meat with the exception of insects. However, their food wasn't sprayed with chemicals like ours is today, and I imagine they ate quite a bit of dirt .

[Cherry]

Aha. Sorry - I was a little bit wrong then. I didn't realise that they produced b12. Shame they don't live a little further up.

[Howlek]

Thanks for the link Rhiannon, this seems to be the best information on the web that I've found for B12.

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries."

I think the answer for Vegans who don't eat fortified foods or take vitamins is micro-organisms in the dirt.
Maybe eating dirt should be recommended Cherry .

[feline01]

Or eating poo

[Cherry]

Urgh!

I think I'll stick to cereals, soya mince thanks

[Korn]

Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low.

Hi, the 'you-need-to eat-poo-to-get-enough-B12' seem to be based on assumptions –*and is a popular myth, kept alive mainly by people who don't think veganism is a good idea. There was no research in that Iranian village showing measuring the B12 levels in the vegetables or how dirty they were. Meat-eaters like to think that veganism is un-natural because 'you have to eat dirt to get your nutrients' - maybe it makes them feel better. In this subforum we have already listed 40-50 possible plants containing B12, and B12 has also been found in good quantities in (non-chlorinated) water. It is also found in bark of some trees, on grass and on the surface and in the roots of various plants. This is not because the plant is dirty or because it is contaminated with bad bacteria from humans or other animals. Bacteria / micro-organisms isn't always a bad thing and doesn't equal 'dirt', unlike what most people, especially in the Western world, tend to believe.

Another silly anti-vegan myth is that 'you have to eat *** bowls of spinach every day to get enough B12', so it's better to eat fortified foods and be safe. This is wrong for several reasons:
1) If B12 is found in spinach, but also in dozens of other plants, why would you eat lots of bowls of only one of these plants??
2) Even if it would be sufficient amounts of B12 in plants, most of us live a life that destroys and prohibits intake of B12, which means that eating 'enough' B12 doesn't necessarily mean that you absorb enough B12. (See THIS subforum about possible causes of B12 deficiency.
3) Eating fortified doesn't mean that you're safe re. B12. 39% of all meat eaters, who over-consume B12, are still low in this vitamin, which should illustrate that the amount of B12 you consume is only a part of the whole picture.

[Howlek]

That's very helpful, Korn. This is a little off topic, but I would like to know what you think of some of the literature that says soy is not safe. I imagine eating to much of any food is not safe, but do the hormone analogues in this food really have a negative affect on us. I point out www.mercola.com/article/soy.

[spo]

Hi, all
Thanks, Korn for posting and including all the links on this forum on veg sources of B12 and also the possible causes of deficiencies. I think that should put a "nail in the coffin of the anti-vegan B12 argument".
spo

[Korn]

I think the answer for Vegans who don't eat fortified foods or take vitamins is micro-organisms in the dirt.

Both fortified food and multi-vitamins are known to contain the same B12 analogues which are used as an argument against plants as a reliable B12 source (plants contain B12 analogues too - so do our bodies)....

I can see no reason to strengthen the assumptions that anti-vegan lobbyists spreads about eating dirt or faeces. I've always wondered why even some vegans seem to be more interested in the vitamins in their toilet or under their shoes than the ones found in plants and water....

[Korn]

That's very helpful, Korn. This is a little off topic, but I would like to know what you think of some of the literature that says soy is not safe.

If it's a question to me personally, I know too little about soy to say something useful about it.

[Korn]

Thanks, Korn for posting and including all the links on this forum on veg sources of B12

Thanks... don't forget that the forum is about possible B12 sources...

[spo]

That's very helpful, Korn. This is a little off topic, but I would like to know what you think of some of the literature that says soy is not safe. I imagine eating to much of any food is not safe, but do the hormone analogues in this food really have a negative affect on us. I point out www.mercola.com/article/soy.

Hi, Howlek
Firstly, let me tell you that Mercola is a not a reliable source for medical information. I say this as a nurse, and even my husband, the doctor, has told me that legitimate medical sources consider him unethical, and to put it nicely, a Quack!

Actually, soy contains biologically active phytoestrogens--that just means plant-sourced estrogen compounds. However, you would have to eat a incredibly large amount of tofu to have a problem-- this is only a cautious speculation. My husband is an Endocrinologist and has done human studies with males who were given large amounts of Tofu. There was no significant increase in estrogen levels in the study participants.

The over-the-counter estrogen replacers that you see, take the estrogen from the soybean plant, and use a large amount of harvested plant to get a biologically active dose to put in supplements for post-menopausal women.

I hope that helps
spo

[gertvegan]

This is a little off topic, but I would like to know what you think of some of the literature that says soy is not safe.

Have a look at the Is soya bad for your health? and Check out this load of crap threads Howlek.

[Howlek]

Thanks a lot, spo, gertvegan, I've been looking for information that doesn't come from the manufacturers of soy products that refutes some of the negative things i've read about it. It's amazing how hard it is to separate the truth from the myth when so many special interests are involved. Your lucky to have a loved-one that works in one of the areas of health, spo.

p.s. I would like to say that all the disinformation in the realm of health and wellness and other areas is a byproduct of our capitalistic democracy. Something has to change.

[cali02]

I use 2 sprays of Vitaspray to get a sufficient amount of Vitamin B12. Vitaspray is a specially formulated herbal complex. The primary ingredient in VitaSpray is Vitamin B12, a water-soluble vitamin, part of the Vitamin B complex. Something I didn't know before is that Vitamin B12 is important for metabolism, the formation of red blood cells and the maintenance of the central nervous system.

Each spray of Vitaspray a provides 200% of the recommended daily value of vitamin B12, and is especially handy for people who have difficulty swallowing vitamin tablets and capsules. My PhD nutritionist friend highly recommends it to all her vegan patients!

[vegechic]

i have a question do we really need supplements?

[cali02]

Vitamin B12 is important for metabolism, the formation of red blood cells and the maintenance of the central nervous system. As Vegans, we are more likely to require B12 supplements because B12 comes primarily from animal products, such as eggs, meat, poultry, shellfish and milk products. We can get it in certain vegetables but not the sufficient amounts needed.

Food sources- Brewers yeast, balckstrap mollasses, brown rice, nuts.

Vitamin B's Beneficial effects:
-Anti-aging agent
-Aids in digestion, particularly of protein
-Helps stabilize emotions, and relieves irritability and depression -Produces Hydrochloric Acid in stomach to correct constipation by improving Peristalsis
-Prevents Edema
-Helps the heart muscle, brain, and entire nervous system
-Is also a catalyst in the cure for yeast and wheat allergies.
-A great stress reducer

Vitaspray has: B12, B6, folic acid, Thiamine, niacin (which regulates the Central Nervous System)

[Korn]

We can get it in certain vegetables but not the sufficient amounts needed.

Food sources- Brewers yeast, balckstrap mollasses, brown rice, nuts.

Hi, maybe you confuse B vitamins with B12 here, I have never seen brown rice and nuts listed as containing B12.

B12 has been cultivated on the surface of blackstrap molasses, and there are people who use brewer's yeast tablets as a B12 source, but I have heard that they /some of them have been fortified with B12. You mention that B-vitamins is also a catalyst in the cure for yeast allergies; I believe that too much brewers yeast can be a bad idea because it can increase yeast reactions/candida albicans....

[cali02]

Yes, thank you for correcting me on the brown rice (only has vit. B, not B12). I agree, too much brewers yeast can intefere with yeast infections, that's why the vitaspray is such a good alternative with B12, B6, folic acid, Thiamine and niacin.