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Thread: Vegans, animal products and heart disease (CVD)

  1. #1
    gertvegan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Healthy Heart Handbook

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Vegans, animal products and heart disease (CVD)

    Increased heart disease risk is associated with a lot of factors, like stress, smoking, alcohol, physical inactivity, diabetes, overweight and high blood pressure. Some people seem to believe that being vegans and vegetarians, who are known to have higher homocysteine levels than meat eaters, are having increased heart disease risk compared with people living on a standard diet. So I though I should start a thread about this; there are actually many studies that document that the opposite is the case.

    http://www.peta.org.uk/factsheet/fil...ay.asp?ID=116:
    A study of almost 5,000 British vegetarians over seven years found that they had a ‘significantly lower’ risk of heart disease than meat-eaters (ML Burr and BK Butland, ‘Heart Disease in British Vegetarians’, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 48 (1988), pp. 830-32.)
    For people who cut dairy products and eggs from their diet as well, the odds are even better. The British Medical Journal published findings from a study of lifelong vegans which concluded that they have a 57 per cent reduced risk. (M Thorogood et al., ‘Plasma Lipids and Lipoproteins in Groups With Different Dietary Practices Within Britain’, British Medical Journal, 295 (1987) pp. 351-53.)

    http://vegnews.org/modules.php?name=...rticle&sid=121 :
    In an enormous undertaking, twelve researchers took all of the biggest and best studies to date on vegetarian mortality rates and pooled all the data together. They took a decade of mortality data from 28,000 vegetarians from Germany, California, and Britain. And found... no survival advantage for vegetarians. What about vegans though? Despite even having lower cholesterol levels than vegetarians, the vegans in the study didn't live any longer either. Vegans had the same mortality rate as meateaters.

    http://www.raleys.com/cfapps/healthn...tentID=1301007 :
    Vegetarians consume more antioxidants, which are found in a wide variety of plant foods. Antioxidants protect cells from oxygen-induced damage and reduce the risk for heart disease, arthritis, cancer, and other diseases.

    http://www.bhj.org/books/diets/chap2.htm :
    Some evidence exists that protein or dietary fibre in vegetarians may be involved in reducing coronary heart disease [...] 35-64-year-old Seventh-day Adventist vegetarian men had lower mortality than did nonvegetarians although in men over 65 and women differences were significant, even after taking smoking into account. [...]The fact that mortality and morbidity from coronary artery disease is lower in vegetarians than in non-vegetarians has also been confirmed at the Bombay Hospital.
    Although this hospital caters to all the communities the patients are strictly provided with vegetarian diet only. The studies are in progress at the Bombay Hospital Institute of Medical Sciences to go into the dietary causes of coronary artery disease and our initial data from these studies shows that out of the last hundred coronary heart disease patients, only thirty six patients were vegetarians.
    Are there any special substances in the vegetarian diet which give protection against coronary heart disease? In India a lot of work has already been done on the role of garlic and onion in lowering blood cholesterol. Maize bran has also been shown to have a protective effect on the cardiovascular status. Many other vegetarian foods, protective to the heart, have been discussed in another chapter.
    Hence it seems evident, that vegetarianism offers definite protection from coronary heart disease.

    Dr. Timothy Key (from The Cancer Epidemiology Unit at the Radcliffe Infirmary in Oxford, England):
    In general, the mortality rates of all the subjects in all three studies are much lower than average for the UK, showing that the health of both the vegetarians and the meat-eaters in these studies is good. Comparisons of vegetarians with meat-eaters within the studies show only small differences in total mortality rates, but in all three studies mortality from ischaemic heart disease is 15-20% lower in vegetarians.

    Roger R. Williams, "Diet, Genes, Early Heart Attacks, and High Blood Pressure," in Nutrition in the ‘90s: Current Controversies and Analysis, ed. Frank N. Kotsonis and Maureen A. Mackey (New York: Marcel Dekker, Inc., 1994), 237-316.:
    A high-fat, animal-based diet is the single most significant cause of death from heart disease.


    1. Knutsen SF. Lifestyle and the use of health services. Am J Clin Nutr. 1994;59(suppl):1171S-1175S. 2. Key TH, Thorogood M, Appleby PM, Burr ML. Dietary habits and mortality in 11,000 vegetarian and health conscious people: results of a 17-year follow up. BMJ. 1996;313:775-779:
    Studies indicate that vegetarians often have lower morbidity (1) and mortality (2) rates from several chronic” degenerative diseases than do nonvegetarians. Although nondietary factors, including physical activity and abstinence from smoking and alcohol, may play a role, diet is clearly a contributing factor.

    Franklin TL, Kolasa KM, Griffin K, Mayo C, Badenhop DT. Adherence to very low fat diet by a group of cardiac rehabilitation patients in the rural southeastern United States. Arch Fam Med. 1995;4:551-554. Gould KL, Ornish D, Scherwitz L, Brown S, Edens RP, Hess MJ, Mullani N, Bolomey L, Dobbs F, Armstrong WT, Merritt T, Ports T, Sparler S, Billings J. Changes in myocardial perusion abnormalities by positron emission tomography after long-term intense risk factor modification. JAMA. 1995;274:894-901:
    Vegetarian diets low in fat or saturated fat have been used successfully as part of comprehensive health programs to reverse severe coronary artery disease.

    Beilin LJ. Vegetarian and other complex diets, fats, fiber, and hypertension. Am J Clin Nutr.1994;59(suppl):1130-1135:
    Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of hypertension than nonvegetarians. This effect appears to be independent of both body weight and sodium intake.


    http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2003iss...sue2update.htm :
    A large British study, with more than 2000 male and close to 9000 female participants, examined the risk of hypertension in meat eaters, fish eaters, vegetarians, and vegans. People with hypertension are at increased risk for both heart disease and stroke. Meat eaters were most likely to report that they had been diagnosed with hypertension (15% of men and 12% of women studied). Vegans were least likely to report being diagnosed with hypertension (close to 6% of men and 8% of women).


    http://www.purifymind.com/WhyHow.htm
    Around 50% of male meat eaters in America die of heart disease. For vegetarians the figure is 25%. For vegans it is only 4%. [...]A comparison of the mortality (death rate) of meat eaters and non-meat eaters after 12 years of follow-up was published in the British Medical Journal on 25 June 1994. The results show that after adjusting for smoking habits, body mass index (a measure of obesity) and social class (three factors known to influence mortality), the non-meat eaters experienced lower death rates for all causes of death combined, ischaemic heart disease and all cancers combined, the differences being statistically significant (meaning that they were unlikely to have arisen by chance) for all causes and all cancers combined.

    http://www.animalliberation.org.au/vegoheart.html :
    Vegetarians were less likely to die of heart disease, even when they were compared to a relativ ly healthy group of meat eaters selected from health shop customers. [...] Among the Californian Seventh Day Adventists, there was a clear relationship between the amo nt of meat eaten and the risk of dying of heart disease. Men aged 45-64 who ate meat daily wer 3 times more likely to die of heart disease than those who didn't eat meat (14). The difference as smaller but still significant for older men, and for women over 65.

    http://www.organicpathways.co.nz/com...story/190.html
    Those people who abstain from meat but continue eating eggs and dairy products still experience high rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes and other diseases. There is evidence to suggest, for example, that the sugar in milk products, lactose, contributes to heart disease by weakening the heart muscle.

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7317449/
    And the vegans had low levels of C-reactive protein, an inflammatory molecule that is becoming linked with the risk of heart disease, diabetes and other chronic disease.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  3. #3
    snaffler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    Thanks for the info Korn, very interesting I would take my 3% colestral level as a result of being vegan as did my GP recently.

    I would be more inclined to say that an animal free diet is safer for a healthy heart and I am not prepared to risk or do the alternative
    Go confidently in the direction of your dreams

  4. #4
    tails4wagging
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    I am not surprised about the meat diet contributing towards iscaemic heart disease and hypertension.

    That animal fats are known to clog up arteries,causing embolisms, hypertension etc,.


    At the age of 56 yrs old my blood pressure has always been within normal limits. I dont have excess mucus which causes irritating coughs etc,.

    I think as vegans we eat the correct nutrients to ward off, heart disease.

  5. #5
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    VITAMIN E WORKS AS WELL OR BETTER THAN CHOLESTEROL LOWERING DRUGS WITHOUT THE RISK AND AT MUCH LOWER COST


    A three-year research study of more than 1,000 individuals with a prior history of coronary heart disease showed that 400 to 800 units of vitamin E per day, taken as a supplement, reduced the risk of heart attack by 35%, when compared to a similar group who took a placebo.




    Stephens NG, Parsons A, Schofield PM, et al: Randomized controlled trial of vitamin E in patients with coronary disease: Cambridge Heart Antioxidant Study. Lancet 1996 March 23;(9004):781-786.


    Harvard Medical School studies of 80,000 female and 40,000 male health-care professionals, found that 100 units of vitamin E per day reduced the risk of heart attack by approximately 35% in both groups.


    Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ, Ascheno A, et al. Vitamin E consumption and the risk of coronary heart disease in men. N Engl J Med 1993 May 20;328(20):1450-1456.

    Stampher MJ, Hennekens CH, Morrison JE, et al: Vitamin E consumption and the risk of coronary disease in women. N Engl J Med 1993 May 20;328(20):1444-1449.

    Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ: The role of antioxidants in preventive cardiology. Curr Opin Cardiol 1997 Mar;12(2):188-194.

    Dr. Ronald Klatz, president of the American Academy of Anti Aging Medicine, reports 50% risk reduction from these Harvard studies.* Dr. Klatz, states that Dr. Rimm found the risk of not taking multiple vitamin supplements equal to the risk of smoking as a cause of heart disease.* Dr. Klatz writes that the Harvard study shows supplementing with ". . . high doses of these vitamins [vitamin C, vitamin E and beta carotene] slashed the risk of heart disease by nearly 50%."



    Klatz, R. Total Health: American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine Newsletter. 1997, Dec;19(4), p.28.
    ANTIOXIDANTS AND CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE


    Two European studies examined the relation between antioxidant levels and coronary artery disease (CAD) in three European populations.* The first study compared 50 year old Swedish and Lithuanian men to investigate why Lithuanian men have four times the risk of CAD.* Although there were only slight differences in accepted CAD risk factors between the two populations, the Lithuanians were significantly more prone to LDL oxidation.* The second study assessed 1,605 randomly selected middle-aged Finnish men for many accepted CAD risk factors and for vitamin C levels. * A follow-up eight years later showed that men with vitamin C deficiency had a 2.5-fold adjusted increase in the risk for MI (heart attack).* Low levels of vitamin C increased heart disease 250%.* Both studies suggest that CAD is not simply related to absolute lipid levels, but also to LDL oxidation, a process that can be slowed with antioxidants.



    Kristenson M et al.* Antioxidant state and mortality from coronary artery disease in Lithuanian and Swedish men. British Medical Journal. * March 1, 1997; 314:629-633.

    Nyyssonen K et al. Vitamin C deficiency and risk of myocardial infarction. British Medical Journal.* March 1, 1997; 314:634-8.



    VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS PROLONG LIFE


    A study from the UCLA Medical Center concluded that mortality rates for people who take multiple vitamin supplements containing at least 400 mg of vitamin C per day, plus many other ingredients, had a reduction in their overall death rate of up to 65%, when compared to people who did not take high-potency vitamin supplements.* A total of 11,248 individuals were followed for 10 years.* The use of nutritional supplements containing doses of vitamin C much greater than the RDA more strongly correlated as a preventive for atherosclerosis, than were high levels of blood cholesterol or high dietary fat intake as causal factors.* An author of the study stated that this data indicate an extension of life expectancy for the average American male of approximately 6 years, resulting from vitamin supplementation alone.* An editorial accompanying that article stated that "...it is probable that a variety of antioxidants and other nutrients act in concert...increased attention should be given not only to dietary sources of these nutrients, but also to the possible benefits of dietary supplements.



    Enstrom EE, Kanim LE, Klein MA: Vitamin C intake and mortality among a sample of the United States population.* Epidemiology 1992;3(3):194-202.
    B-COMPLEX VITAMIN DEFICIENCY ASSOCIATED WITH RISK OF HEART DISEASE


    Recent studies show that lower blood levels of vitamins B6, B12 and folic acid (folate) are associated with an increased risk of heart attacks, strokes, and other forms of atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.* Those vitamins help to clear homocysteine from the blood.* Homocysteine is a byproduct of normal metabolism and elevated levels greatly accelerate atherosclerosis.* Blood levels of vitamins B6, B12, and folate were lower in people with high homocysteine and were associated with increased risk of heart disease.



    Morrison HI, Schaubel D, Desmeules M et al: Serum folate and risk of fatal coronary heart disease. JAMA 1996 June 26;275(24):1893-1896.

    Graham IM, Daly LE, Refsum HM, et al: Plasma homocysteine as a risk factor for vascular disease. The European Concerted Action Project. JAMA 1997 June 11; 227(22):1775-1781.
    http://drcranton.com/nutrition/prnutrition.htm
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  6. #6
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/...ort_b12_2.html
    Heart attack and stroke

    Vitamin B12 has an important role in reducing levels of homocysteine to prevent heart attack and stroke. Homocysteine is a by-product of methionine metabolism that can damage blood vessels. B12 and folate are critical for the production of the tongue-twisting enzyme, methylenetetrahydrofolatereductase, which helps convert homocysteine to methionine. Dozens of studies show that the most common cause of elevated homocysteine is inadequate folate or vitamin B12. Supplementation with these vitamins lowers homocysteine levels, but vitamin B6 and trimethylglycine (TMG) are usually also required to lower homocysteine to a healthy range.

    Vitamin B12 deficiency has another effect on the heart as well. Turkish researchers recently reported that people with megalobastic anemia have abnormal electrical conductivity of the heart. The problem originates in the nerves that control heart rate. When the anemic volunteers took supplemental B12, heart rate returned to normal.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    This article is not written from a vegan perspective, but contains a lot of info about diet and heart disease:
    http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=disease&dbid=4
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  8. #8
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    From http://www.healthyheart.org/public/riskfactors.htm


    According to Statistics Canada (1998), 47.9% of Canadians were overweight. Genes and heredity may increase an individual’s susceptibility to being overweight, however most people consume too many calories, or have low activity levels. People who have excess body weight are more likely to develop heart disease and stroke, even if they have no other risk factors. Excess weight increases the heart's work and also contributes to high blood pressure, increased triglycerides, and lowers HDL ("good") cholesterol levels. It can also make diabetes more likely to develop. Many obese and overweight people may have difficulty losing weight, but even reducing your weight by as few as 10 to 20 pounds, you can lower your heart disease risk.

    How body weight is distributed is also important: Individuals who carry their extra body weight around their waist are at particular risk. According to Canadian Guidelines, waist circumference is a useful estimate of abdominal obesity and indicator of cardiovascular risk. For men, their risk increases with a waist circumference of 102 cm or greater, for women, their risk increases with a waist circumference of 88cm or greater.
    Obesity is more common in non-vegans than in vegans.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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    Default The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Yay! It makes a change for them to do something decent, about time too.

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    snaffler's Avatar
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Those food stats are shocking kids not knowing what comes from what, what has gone wrong in the last 17 years since I left school it is scary.
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    cedartree cedarblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote snaffler
    Those food stats are shocking kids not knowing what comes from what, what has gone wrong in the last 17 years since I left school it is scary.

    in the jamies school dinners progs, he held up some veg, something like rhubarb and kids suggested it might be celery, potatoes, onions....

  13. #13
    Kevster
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Wow, a step in the right direction. More prevention less cure.

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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    It does make you wonder what many parents bother to teach their children about food. It's bad enough to not know anything about the nutritional value of foodstuffs but to not even know what stuff is called or in some cases whether it's a plant or animal is astounding.

  15. #15
    Pilaf
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Pffft... you're actually surprised? I've suspected for a long time that a lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things, and this only supports my views.

    By the way..if they were really "doing their jobs" they'd already be promoting a vegan diet as the ONLY acceptably heart healthy lifestyle. Medicine has a long way to go, ethically. Doctors care only about money..they're capitalists of the worst sort. They want to fill people with pills to cover the symptoms of chronic diseases which, more often than not, are caused by poor dietary choices. It falls on doctors AND common citizens to be more informed about nutrition.

  16. #16
    Karma
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Speak for yourselves in the US. I'm a vegan UK based junior doctor and, having just taken a year out at my own expense to study public health, epidemiology, nutrition and it's role in chronic disease etc. I now have holes in my shoes... (and now it's winter and my feet are too wide for the shoes from the vegetarian shoe shop which are quite pricey anyway... but that's another thread, sorry).

    I note that the BHF aren't actually telling people not to eat meat, just not to eat gristle! So they aren't doing 'our jobs for us'.

    One thing we learnt about is the difference between hypothesis generating and hypothesis confirming research. A lot of the research implicating meat and dairy per se (as opposed to too much saturated fat or whatever) is international comparisons between rates of disease, which is suggestive but not conclusive enough to base international nutritional guidelines on which have huge political and economic implications....I have been reading the dairy thread and thinking about this. Would love to get my teeth into some solid epidemiological research on, for example the link between dairy and osteoporosis, but who would fund it? There are huge biases in the research being done, because the questions being asked are only those with some opportunity of financial reward. So there's research being done by the pharmaceutical companies, the food industry, etc. but we live in an age when recommendations can only be based on hard evidence which will live up to professional scrutiny. I met some fascinating, intelligent 'professionals' during my course, but like the recent struggles over smoking in public places demonstrate, even facts don't always swing the balance away from the interests of big business just like that. But they do help. And without them there isn't a hope of winning over the doctors or the politicians etc. etc.

    On another thread there was an 18 year old talking about what to do with her life and contemplating activism. I think she should think about this. Get trained, get informed, get inside and learn to talk with the big guys. The thing is, vegans have an important and valuable point, but as long as it is pitched as alternative, it will never get into the mainstream, and it will never make any real difference if it doesn't.

    Happy for any feedback on this. I'm just forming my own thoughts as I write. Especially I would be interested to hear about any ongoing research in this area that I don't know about yet!

  17. #17
    told me to Mr Flibble's Avatar
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Karma
    On another thread there was an 18 year old talking about what to do with her life and contemplating activism. I think she should think about this. Get trained, get informed, get inside and learn to talk with the big guys.
    I couldn't agree more, however I've known people in the past who've used this as an excuse not to do activism - putting it off till an arbituary point in the future.

    I've never met a student (undergrad or post grad) in my life who can claim they have no time (less than 10 minutes a week to write a letter) for activism and unless their circumstances exceptional, it sounds like a poor excuse to me to claim studying as their reason for not participating. When I was a student I spent between 10-25% of my time studying maximum.
    "Mr Flibble - forum corruptor of innocents!!" - Hemlock

  18. #18
    Karma
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    True. Can do both

  19. #19

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Karma
    A lot of the research implicating meat and dairy per se (as opposed to too much saturated fat or whatever) is international comparisons between rates of disease, which is suggestive but not conclusive enough to base international nutritional guidelines on which have huge political and economic implications!
    You're right, but some research studies that have been done are mentioned in the book The China Study. Campbell actually did some direct research, at least on the link between cancer and dairy/animal protein. (He also talks about the international comparisons, as well as differences in the same "gene pool" once they move to more Western cultures. In addition, he discusses how much power the entrenched institutions--pharmaceutical companies, the dairy/meat/sugar industries, etc--have on nutritional guidelines regardless of the supporting evidence that already exists. Have you read it?
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  20. #20
    Kevster
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Is this new?

    'Diet could prevent 2.5m cancer deaths

    By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
    Published: 18 November 2005
    Almost 2.5 million cancer deaths worldwide could be prevented if people changed their diet and behaviour, doctors say.

    Nine factors account for more than a third of the seven million cancer deaths a year which could be avoided. Reducing smoking and alcohol and eating more fruit and vegetables are the most important factors but little effort is going into promoting their life-saving effects, researchers say in the Lancet medical journal.'

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle327764.ece

  21. #21
    Karma
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    You can see the original article at www.thelancet.com (you have to register but anyone can) xx

  22. #22

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Kevster
    Is this new?

    'Diet could prevent 2.5m cancer deaths

    By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
    Published: 18 November 2005
    Almost 2.5 million cancer deaths worldwide could be prevented if people changed their diet and behaviour, doctors say.

    Nine factors account for more than a third of the seven million cancer deaths a year which could be avoided. Reducing smoking and alcohol and eating more fruit and vegetables are the most important factors but little effort is going into promoting their life-saving effects, researchers say in the Lancet medical journal.'

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle327764.ece
    Sorry if I insinuated that Dr. Campbell is the first to make the connection, I just thought you didn't think there were studies (other than cultural comparisons) that proved a link between animal protein and any disease. One reason I really enjoyed the book is he not only mentions numerous studies (not all done by him) which prove links between animal protein and MANY diseases, he also points out why the general public (at least in the U.S.) seems oblivious to these findings and how studies are too narrow (i.e., as you mentioned earlier, only studying how fat and fiber or some single nutrient relates to disease).
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  23. #23
    Karma
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Are you talking to me now or to Kevster?

    Will definately try and get hold of the China study at some point, but a bit lacking in time and money just now (trying to revise for big exam at the mo ), and have a long list of books waiting to be read already....

    Tried to read this Lancet paper this afternoon... It made my brain ache and I'm not sure it says anything new. It's a kind of summary of a lot of information from lots of previous studies, which may help people to take notice I suppose??

    It says (among other things) that low fruit and veg intake is estimated to have caused 5% of all deaths from cancer worldwide in 2001. So the conclusion to be drawn from this is that we should be eating more fruit and veg. No surprises there then.

    I've still only had one apple so far today. The bigger question now is not what should we be doing, but why, when we know what is good for us, don't most of us do it (most visitors to this site excepted, of course!)?

    Also, like a lot of the fashionable nutrition advice these days, it says eat more fruit and veg, but doesn't comment on what people should be eating less of. If you eat more fruit and veg, you have to compensate for it by eating less animal produce. But which is it that causes cancer? Or both? Nutrition is a complicated business

  24. #24

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Karma
    Also, like a lot of the fashionable nutrition advice these days, it says eat more fruit and veg, but doesn't comment on what people should be eating less of. If you eat more fruit and veg, you have to compensate for it by eating less animal produce. But which is it that causes cancer? Or both? Nutrition is a complicated business
    I agree that it can be frustrating to see that many nutritionists might give part of the picture and not the whole picture. That is, that it would be best to cut out certain products, not just add "good" food. From some of the psychological studies I've read (that's what my degrees are in, social sciences), people often don't do what's good for them because they don't really think of the long-term cummulative effects of what they're doing. Even if you point out to them what the effects are long-term, they tend to think in less lengthy results and the short-term high/good outweighs thoughts of long-term evils. (That's part of the reason smokers don't quit, young smokers know that a lot of the extreme negatives--such as cancer--mainly manifest themselves many years down the road.) Also, we tend to rationalize what we want to do (such as when my dad says, "I can eat cholesterol-laden foods because high cholesterol is just genetic, what I eat has nothing to do with it"). And what's worse is there's problably some "expert" out there with a theory and, sometimes, iffy research that strengthens such rationalizations (like my dad says he heard a theory that if you stop eating cholesterol, your body will actually make more to get you back to your genetic cholesterol level AND he also brings up the study that eggs are good for you, even after I discovered and told him that the studies saying that were funded by the egg industry).
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  25. #25

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    I looked at the article (guess I'm too lazy to wade through the original paper) and I think it greatly underestimates the impact of diet on health. They mention the impact of obesity, which may be related to diet, as a seperate "cause" of cancer. Now obviously there are vegans who are obese, but from other studies (i.e., the framingham study) there is less vegan/vegetarian obesity than omnivore/carnivore obesity.

    Another aspect that Dr. Campbell discusses: the impact of diet is MUCH stronger if the studies eliminate animal products rather than just adding fruits, vegetables, fiber, or some other nutrient, while this study seems to only look at adding rather than subtracting food stuffs as sources of cancer. He points out that many studies just add some "miracle" solution (i.e., vitamin E or fiber supplements), then they find little or no change in the chance of cancer/heart disease/diabetes/etc and claim that "it makes little difference." One study he mentions is the Nurse's health study (done here in the U.S.) that showed little impact of fiber on colon cancer. He points out that the study participants ALL had a more carnivorous diet than the average American woman, so just eating more fiber on top of all the animal protein would do little to help, but the doctors in charge of the study said the study showed that fiber doesn't really reduce colon cancer risk! [Scientific reductionism at its worst!]
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  26. #26
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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    In my epidemiology textbook there is this graph which shows a clear correlation between meat consumption and bowel cancer for lots of different countries (i.e. countries with the highest meat consumption also have the highest rates of bowel cancer), but apparently you can't say from that that meat causes bowel cancer. It might be that lack of fibre causes bowel cancer and if you eat more meat you also eat less fibre. Or it could be that it's all the vegetarians getting bowel cancer because they aren't eating any meat, and maybe there are more vegetarians in countries with high overall meat consumptions (like as a reaction or protest or something) but they are a small sub-group of the population (it doesn't say that in my book, that's just my interpretation of what they mean when they say you can't tell from those kinds of studies whether it is the same people who eat all the meat who are getting bowel cancer...)

    So that's how scientists can rationalise just about anything away, by saying you can't draw any conclusions from that! I think scientists are people too, a bit like your dad.... if they don't like something probably it can be played down or not published or found enough fault in that it ends up being ignored. Or they just don't do the studies in the first place.

    I'd love to look into this more... I find it fascinating, but sorry to ramble on!

  27. #27

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Karma
    In my epidemiology textbook there is this graph which shows a clear correlation between meat consumption and bowel cancer for lots of different countries (i.e. countries with the highest meat consumption also have the highest rates of bowel cancer), but apparently you can't say from that that meat causes bowel cancer. It might be that lack of fibre causes bowel cancer and if you eat more meat you also eat less fibre. Or it could be that it's all the vegetarians getting bowel cancer because they aren't eating any meat, and maybe there are more vegetarians in countries with high overall meat consumptions (like as a reaction or protest or something) but they are a small sub-group of the population (it doesn't say that in my book, that's just my interpretation of what they mean when they say you can't tell from those kinds of studies whether it is the same people who eat all the meat who are getting bowel cancer...)

    So that's how scientists can rationalise just about anything away, by saying you can't draw any conclusions from that! I think scientists are people too, a bit like your dad.... if they don't like something probably it can be played down or not published or found enough fault in that it ends up being ignored. Or they just don't do the studies in the first place.

    I'd love to look into this more... I find it fascinating, but sorry to ramble on!
    I guess I'm rambling on too then...isn't rambling fun

    As far as that goes, I think some studies (like the aforementioned Nurses' study) shows that fiber is not the whole story, as the nurses with higher fiber content in their diet did not show a strong reduction in colon cancer rates. However, as I already mentioned, these women did eat LOTS of meat, dairy, eggs, etc. What upsets me is that the "establishment" takes that as proof against diet reducing cancer rates, but they can't see what Dr. Campbell points out--that animal protein is at least a part of the problem! But I think you have hit on something...scientists have their own biases (I know I'm biased in my view to some extent, though I TRY to be critically open-minded) and may intentionally or even unintentionally find the results they expect by their research design (i.e., not comparing vegans to ovo-lacto vegetarians and omnivores), how they "define" variables (i.e., saying dairy helps you lose weight but only counting milk/yogurt/etc directly and inidividually eaten and ignoring dairy in foods--like pizza or cream in soup as one dairy industry funded study did), etc. You're also right that some scientists are so "rabid" that they tend to ignore correlational studies, even if the correlation is almost 100%!
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

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    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Oh, don't get me started on cream in soup... I mean why?

    What's all this about dairy and weight loss... must be an American thing?

    It's so unfair... the food industry can take the tinyest bit of rubbish 'evidence' and twist it around and spin it to the world, but if those seeking to chllenge the status quo of big business want to quote evidence it had better be cast iron, or it will be ripped to shreds.....

  29. #29

    Default Re: The British Heart Foundation are doing our job now.

    Quote Karma
    What's all this about dairy and weight loss... must be an American thing?

    It's so unfair... the food industry can take the tinyest bit of rubbish 'evidence' and twist it around and spin it to the world, but if those seeking to chllenge the status quo of big business want to quote evidence it had better be cast iron, or it will be ripped to shreds.....
    Yes, it's an American thing The dairy industry took a study they funded and claim that by eating three servings of low-fat dairy a day, you could lose more weight than just using a low-fat diet. The problems with the study are myriad, but of course they don't mention any of the "problems" in their ads. A good site for info on how the vegan diet is the best for health (though admittedly they're probably "biased") is http://www.pcrm.org This group is suing to try to get the ads removed because of how false they are.
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  30. #30

    Default What's wrong with the scientific community?

    Seems like this thread has become a "why veganism isn't taken seriously by the scientific community" thread
    When you are guided by compassion and loving-kindness, you are able to look deeply into the heart of reality and see the truth.--Thich Nhat Hanh

  31. #31
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    Lightbulb Vegan lifestyle good for the heart, body, soul and mind

    Vegan lifestyle good for the heart, body, soul and mind

    By: Marianne Harris, Thursday, March 9, 2006, http://www.auburnjournal.com

    So, you want to lose weight. You want to live healthier. You want fewer visits to the doctor. Normal blood pressure and cholesterol levels. Clear, unclogged arteries. Pain-free days and nights. A good night's sleep - good digestion - a sharp memory with good concentration. Sexual vitality. Well, stop looking in the pharmacy section. Start looking in your own kitchen. The answer is simple. Veganism. Check it out.

    Veganism is a lifestyle free of animal products or by-products - a plant-based diet - which advocates health and compassion.

    The first question that comes to mind is "how do you get enough protein?" Let's take a look at this protein issue. Joel Fuhrman, M.D., in his book "Eat to Live," states that an easy way to calculate your own daily protein requirement according to the U.S. RDA is to multiply 0.36 (grams) by your body weight. This translates to about 44 grams for a 120-pound woman and 54 grams for a 150-pound male.

    Too much protein is a more common problem. The average person in America consumes foods containing 100 to 120 grams of mostly animal-derived protein daily. This puts a great deal of stress on the kidneys.

    Plant-based diets include protein from a wide variety of whole foods consisting of beans, whole-grains, fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, along with products made from these natural foods, such as tofu, tempeh, and meat substitutes. Those who believe plant protein is inferior to animal protein may be surprised to learn that plant proteins contain the same 23 amino acids as animal proteins. It is unlikely that a vegan would be protein deficient.

    Let's consider our country's health issues. The three leading causes of death in the United States are heart disease, cancer and stroke. Diet and nutrition are a common denominator of these diseases. In "Diet For A New America," John Robbins states "Researchers compared other nations that cannot afford the rich animal diets. The findings were that the United States and Finland had the highest consumption of animal products, the highest consumption of saturated fats and cholesterol - and the highest death rate from heart disease."

    Heart disease is common in societies where much meat is consumed, such as the U.S., Canada, western Europe and Australia, but practically unheard of in societies where meat consumption is low.

    Atherosclerosis is a disease that kills almost as many human beings in the industrialized world as all other causes of death combined. The fats of animal flesh, known as saturated fats, do not break down well in the human body, and instead begin to line the walls of the blood vessels. Eventually the blood vessels get more and more constricted. This places a tremendous burden on the heart which has to pump harder to send the blood through the clogged arteries.

    Roughage and fiber of a plant-based diet actually helps lower the level of cholesterol. Meat, dairy and eggs are the chief sources of saturated fats and have no fiber. The only plant foods containing saturated fats are coconuts, palm kernel oil and chocolate. The average vegan cholesterol level is about 133, while the average vegetarian cholesterol level is 161. And the average meat-eater's cholesterol level is 210. The recommended cholesterol level is 160.

    Cancer is the second killer in our nation. Just to be clear, it's not fat and cholesterol that contributes to cancer; it's animal protein. Fat and cholesterol contributes to heart disease.

    Approximately 55,000 people die of colon cancer in the United States each year. The human intestine has a very hard time handling the putrefying bacteria, high levels of fat, and lack of fiber in meat, dairy and eggs products.

    Do you have to give up a lot to live a healthy, vegan lifestyle? Just ask any vegan - the answer is no. Choosing a plant-based diet means effectively lowering the risks of a diseased life. Your life matters: it matters how you treat others, how you treat animals, how you treat yourself. Most of all - if you are what you eat - it matters what you eat.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Vegan lifestyle good for the heart, body, soul and mind

    Good article. I am going to throw it up on my Myspace page.

  33. #33

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    Default American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    I was happy to read on CNN that the American Heart Association is recommending people to cut down on meat/dairy products and to try vegetable alternatives for replacing meat.

    I thought some of the other health tips they were recommending were also interesting for myself - such as greatly reducing salt intake and exercising 30 minutes every day (I knew this -- I get about two hours a week in... not enough). We've been eating Tostitos Corn chips which is ten percent saturated fat (yikes). We havent been able to find the baked chips anywhere.

    I'm not sure why they keep pushing us to eat fish oils -- wouldn't olive oil/alvacado's suffice? It certainly is "fishy" why they say we should eat it but not when we're pregnant. I think if the mercury intake is not healthy for the growing baby, then it shouldnt be healthy for the mother in general. :P

    It's so nice that other people have to find vegetarian/vegan options because it makes it easier for us hehe


    I posted their recommendations:

    Among the panel's other recommendations:
    • Limiting saturated fats to no more than 7 percent of daily calories, down from the 10 percent formerly recommended and the 11 percent most Americans consume. Saturated fats are in meat and dairy products, and in coconut and palm oil.

    • Getting at least half an hour of exercise a day.

    • Eating fruits and vegetables (not fruit juices) that are deep in color, such as spinach, carrots, peaches and berries.

    • Choosing whole-grain, high-fiber foods.

    • Eating fish, especially oily fish such as salmon and trout, at least twice a week. (Children and pregnant women should follow federal guidelines for avoiding mercury in fish.)

    • Choosing lean meats and trying vegetable alternatives.

    • Consuming fat-free and 1 percent fat milk and other dairy products.

    • Minimizing calories from beverages and avoiding ones with added sugars.

    • Adding little or no salt to foods.

    • Drinking alcohol in moderation..


    article: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/06/19....ap/index.html

  34. #34
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    I saw this one too! It's encouraging, although some things I don't agree with, but they must appeal to the average omni
    ~Mel

    "Sweet songs the youth, the wise, the meaning of all wisdom...to believe in the good in man" - Legend

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    A shame they advise fish as an alternative. It's still an animal fat.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Not according to my Mum. She was complaining today about how she's only been eating 3 meals a day and she's been 'cutting down' and she still hasn't lost any weight. I said if she's doing all that it must be what she's eating. So she points to her seafood/crayfish sandwhich with vinaigrette dressing and says 'this isn't high fat'. I tell her it is, that all seafood is high in cholesterol and saturated fat. She denies it.

    Idiot. No wonder she's a fat old sow with high blood pressure.

  37. #37

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Now now, that's no way to talk about your mom .

    To refer to someone as a cow in French (une vache) is prettttty unkind.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    I actually called her a sow...a female pig
    Personally I think it suits her

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    I'm laughing out loud because I'm soooo forgetting my english.
    I've been studying french for two years in a foreign country... and I make so many mistakes when I do speak English (Which is rarely), that I sound like someone trying to learn English.

    I forgot a sow was a pig...:P heheh

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    That's really not a nice thing to say about pigs (who can be very sweet creatures, BTW).

  41. #41
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Ah true, ok I hope the piggies aren't offended at being compared to my mother!!

  42. #42
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    AMF - Ignorance is bliss?

  43. #43
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Indeed

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    i have a pet fish and wouldn't dream of eating her....she's so sweet and happy!

    i think they recommend fish oils because they have omega oils in them, but to be honest, so does some soy milk.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    omega oils are present in flax seed oil - without the mercury!
    Eve

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    Default Re: American Heart Association pushes people to try vegetarian alternatives

    Or Hemp seed oil. It's great.
    "Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~ George Bernhard Shaw.

  47. #47
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    Video link: "Make Yourself Heart Attack Proof"
    Caldwell Esselstyn, MD, chief of surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, discusses his 18-year study whereby he reversed severe heart disease in every patient in his program -- who had all been sent home to die by their cardiologists. Dr. Esselstyn shows you how by changing your diet you can prevent and reverse heart disease. A low-fat plant-based (vegetarian) diet is the key.

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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    "A three-year research study of more than 1,000 individuals with a prior history of coronary heart disease showed that 400 to 800 units of vitamin E per day, taken as a supplement, reduced the risk of heart attack by 35%, when compared to a similar group who took a placebo." -

    Stats are funny things though aren't they? Let's see the subjects are 1000 individuals already known to be vulnerable to heart attacks - their risk is lightly higher than those who haven't yet had a heart attack. Say for example that risk can be expressed as about 1 in a 1000 (this is probably an exaggeration) then a 35% reduction in risk equates to 0.0035 people in every 1000 at lower risk of heart attack..... However, there is evidence that filling up on antioxidant supplements (like vitamin E) increases the risk of cancer (probably by only the same margin as it reduces the risk of heart attack but there you go - I don't know the exact figures - you pay your money & you take your choice).

    "very interesting I would take my 3% colestral level as a result of being vegan as did my GP recently"

    My GP was sceptical about my diet on getting my HDL result. 5.2mmol (not considered high 15 years ago!). I've been vegan for 16 years & don't really eat anything that would be considered junk. Coconut is pretty much my only significant source of saturated fat... now apparently I'm a candidate for statins. Seems to me that big pharma has changed the parameters to increase the customer base. And the 'health food' industry is no better. But as soon as someone like Gillian Mckeith PhD starts telling you to that you need a handful of supplements every day you can be sure it's more about their professional aggrandisement, and building a market for their industry, than your health.

    Michael Pollen wrote a book In Defence of Food which is a useful antidote to the nutritionism that has come to dominate our lives. The first sentence "eat food, not too much, mostly plants" (my emphasis on food)just about sums it all up really. When did basic,sensible dietary and lifestyle advice come to be presented in such technical, overcomplicated and biomedical terms?
    No guru, no method, no teacher

  49. #49
    gmoney
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    Default Study that says a vegan diet does not correlate to lowering heart disease

    I don't know who funds this magazine, but it seemed fairly prestigious: American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. The article is from this month. I'd be curious to see what other people know about the subject based on other research done (ie. The China Study). They are basically saying that being a vegan really isn't much better than being a meat eater and it doesn't have anything to do with preventing cancer.

    http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&pid...eeM-4vEw&pli=1
    Last edited by Korn; Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:04 AM. Reason: This was the first post in a similar thread

  50. #50
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vegans & heart disease (CVD)

    Hi veganbuzzcock, I merged your thread with another thread we already have about the vegan diet and heart disease (we also have this one: B12, homocysteine, & heart disease)

    Regarding animal based vs. plant based food and cancer, we already have this (and other) thread(s): Cancer, adaptation and the vegan diet

    I can't comment the article, because your link only takes me to a site where I have to register... is it available somewhere else?
    Last edited by Korn; Oct 9th, 2009 at 01:16 AM.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

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