Dying for Dairy

[jhenn]

So if someone asked you why you are vegetarian what would you say?

I would say that I want to do the right thing, and I view the killing of animals for human consumption not only unecessary in modern society, but also totally immoral based on utilitarian ethics.

Then again if someone asked you why you want to go vegan what would you say to that?

I would say to be totally moral, one must reduce all animal products from the diet as much as possible and conciously.

There must be some sort of passion in you to do this otherwise you wouldnt bother.

I really don't have a burning passion for animals. I have more of a passion for being ethical.

I have more of a passion for ethics and doing the right thing

[tabitha]

My youngest son has decided to go vegetarian this week after stuffing his face with McDonalds for about 2 weeks. He loves animals, but turns a blind eye to the suffering. My eldest son isnt particularly bothered about animals but is keen to be healthy and wants to give being vegan a try (mind you I have heard all this before) We all have our reasons. "Its all good" as my kids say Thank you for answering so concisely Jhen.

[UrbanVegan]

You go!
They may be a wee bit over the top, but here's what vegan lunch's can be:

http://veganlunchbox.blogspot.com/

Just a little encourement and inspiration

Thanks for the link. I am so totally motivated to try new recipes. My foods tends to consist of any and all variations of veggies with pasta, vegan burgers, veggies sautéed in olive oil over variations of rice, veggies over baked potatoes with soy sour cream and canola butter, fruits, cereals, nuts and being the southerner that I am bowls of grits with canola butter And add to that the occasional cheese-less veggie pizza and veggie Chinese take out.

I need new ideas.

[mrknifey87]

Jhenn, it looks like the problem here is that you haven't completely decided on the ethical approach you want to take. Veganism is such a restrictive diet by normal dieting standards that you'll never be able to succeed unless you're motived solely by the ethical aspect. The health benefits should matter too, but for me it's a positive side effect. You shouldn't feel bad about not having your heart all the way in it yet, because in the end you're only accountable to your own beliefs and not ours

If you've got the interest and not the burning passion, then just keep researching and learning. Pick up and read Fast Food Nation if you haven't already. There are several threads on this forum about consumption of eggs that might help you solidify that in your mind. In the end though, if you decide that animal rights just isn't for you, then rest easy knowing that you ARE doing a big favor to the world by not consuming meat. Giving up dairy would just be the soy icing on that delicious vegan carrot cake!

If you can't afford to go vegan, then PLEASE don't kick yourself at all! It's a sensitive situation for a lot of people and some of the more priveliged vegans like myself sometimes lose sight that others can only do what they can. If you can afford to eat dairy-free a few days a week, then at least shoot for that.

PS, the woman who wrote Student's Vegetarian Handbook REALLY loves garlic a whole, whole lot. Yuck!

[UrbanVegan]

Veganism is such a restrictive diet by normal dieting standards that you'll never be able to succeed unless you're motived solely by the ethical aspect.

I do not agree with that actually. For me the ethical aspect is a positive benefit but my entire motivation is the health benefit. What meat and animal by-products do to the human body is inhumane to the human body first and inhumane to the animal second. As how I see it. I understand the importance of dealing with inhuman treatment to animals but if we stop treating our bodies in an inhumane way as some garbage dump then that eliminates the cause of the slaughter of animals.

[mrknifey87]

I disagree because I reject that eating animal products is inherently unhealthy. If your sole goal is to be healthy and active, eating non-mercury infested fish or grass-fed beef, for example, is not treating your body like a "garbage dump". That comes with the additives inherent in factory farming. While most evidence does point to vegan alternatives being the most healthy, that does not in itself make meat intrinsically unhealthy. Which is why I think it's difficult to center your lifestyle around what is basically a philosophy, for health reasons. It opens itself up to questions like, "well, this is arctic, untouched, perfect salmon that will be relatively good for me, so why can't I fudge this just once?"

I think that ceasing to treat our bodies like garbage dumps would involve shifting the paradigm of industrial farming to natural food sources, like aforementioned grass-fed beef and such. Without getting into humans being "meant" to eat a certain way (which is just completely absurd), it's safe to say that you can live a healthy life as an omnivore, or a healthy life as a vegan. It's just a matter of one being significantly cheaper than the other.

Of course as long as you're a vegan the objective is being accomplished, and you still care about animal rights. But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

[Monday]

I'm sorry but I can't see how you think that eating vegan is more expensive. There are so many cheap vegan foods such as beans and rice. Yes veg and fruit can be expensive but seasonal stuff is cheaper and what vegetarian or meat eater doesn't eat these things too (or at least they should be!!). Meat and dairy are not cheap.

Monday xx

[UrbanVegan]

But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

I guess that depends on who one is speaking too. Before commercial farming the milking of cows was quite humane back on personal farms. People had one or two milk cows and those cows had a healthy life. I'm sure there are dairy farms out there that although they are small and produce far less milk than commercial cow "prisons" the cows on the smaller farms live a pretty happy life.

So if I enjoyed milk but didn't want to support harsh conditions for cows I would buy my milk from these smaller humane dairy farms.

Same with humane chicken coups that collect eggs. I'm sure there are places that collect eggs and the chickens live a very healthy and happy life. These places are small and produce less eggs but the living conditions of their chickens may be very healthy.

So if animal rights was my only reason for thinking going from a vegetarian to a vegan diet and not the health reasons then that's not enough reason. Since there are farmers who have animal friendly farms.

I visit a vegan juice bar in Atlanta and I know the crowd of people who visit. Trust me animal rights is not their motivation for being vegan. They are vegan because they see the body as a spiritual temple and want it to be as healthy and as pure as possible. I've never once heard an animal rights discussion in that place. But lots of discussion on how animal by-products impact the body. The closest I’ve heard of an animal focus conversation is that milk is for baby cows not humans. And eggs are meant to become baby chickens not breakfast. But the rights of the animals? Not their motivation.

[Haniska]

Exactly, we are the only species who drinks milk after weaning.
Lol, can you imagine some sort of predatory animal stalking lactating mothers simply for their milk? :P

[herbwormwood]

Decide whether you really want to do it.
If you don't, don't.
If you do...
I think it may be wise at first not too worry about ingredients lists, that can be rather hard work if you like processed foods.
I had most trouble giving up cow's milk. Eventually I found a soya milk I did not mind the taste of. After a while cow's milk began to tast foul and revolting and rancid, if anyone mistakenly added it to my tea. I could even taste a rancid taste if someone had had milk in the cup and not washed it properly.

[fiamma]

Without getting into humans being "meant" to eat a certain way (which is just completely absurd)

Absurd how? Our intestines are not really designed to cope with digesting meat. And according to the WHO, as much as 75% of the world's population may be alergic to lactose. Because we lack the enzyme necessary to digest it.

But giving up dairy because it's bad for you is a lot less compelling than giving up dairy because it's wrong.

I don't agree. It's subjective and depends on personal circumstance. I may not give a hoot about the animals, but if I am allergic to milk then that's pretty compelling.

[vegan1969]

this video helped a friend of mine go from ovo-lacto to vegan

[grrrnola]

It's just like being on holiday in a country where you can't buy the food stuff you're used to: it's better to enjoy the sun and the new things you can eat, instead of focusing on what you can't get. Personally I went vegan overnight, but had strong cravings for a lot of things after that, and switched back and forth several times before I ended up in a situation where I know I won't go back to cheese, yoghurt or meat again.

wow that hits home! i'm from toronto canada and i'm living in madrid now, except not on holiday, i am studying here for a year, and all i can think about is how i can't buy the organic stuff i need, and how i can't get my favourite organic dark chocolate without soy lecithin, and stuff like that.

[coney]

What's really good, is 1cup soymilk, with 2 bananas, some molasses (1-2 TB), and ground up dates, or maple syrup in smoothie form. Damn, I could slam a gallon of that stuff!

Molasses actually makes the soymilk taste somewhat chocolatey, not sure why.

Probably adding chocolate syrup to it would really rock.

[karmadust]

I agree with Artichoke47 - go on YouTube and look for videos about animal cruelty (if you search for Animal Liberation Front you get some good ones), or there are pro-animal websites that offer the same footage. I can hardly stand to watch them because it tears me apart and i cry and cry and cry...BUT, when you just can't get over a craving, it will definitely remind you why it's just not worth it. In fact, you'll probably be completely turned off. I'm not the type who can watch those things very often at all, but I force myself to whenever I start to feel lazy about my ethics. It's an instant craving killer...

[Leanne]

Maybe try ice cream instead? There's a brand of ice cream called 'Swedice Glace' and they sell flavours of Vanilla, Strawberry and Chocolate, I got mine from Tesco but they also sell them in health shops.. also apparently the nestle icecream 102 dalmations is vegan too.. I'd suggest those, or even melting them a bit so there more similar in a liquid sense to yoghurt!

[Korn]

An interesting aspect of Breaking the Food Seduction, is that he suggests people to try to plan only 3 weeks ahead to begin with, and make a decision afterwards. So much happens in three weeks, that if someone is able to drop old habits for 3 weeks, most likely they will decide to continue.

...and here' a link to an article based around the same observations Breaking The Food Seduction is based upon:

Breaking the Food Seduction

Some people think that they actually need eg. cheese or yogurt, and it seems like a natural step # 1 is to understand that humans don't need mother's milk from other animals, and to find new, vegan ways to get the nutrients they have relied on animal products for in the past.

[Shells]

Sorry, I just saw that you posted again saying you don't yet feel comitted. In that case, why not just try to cut down on dairy/eggs instead of forbidding them completly? It seems you know you want to go vegan, you just aren't ready yet. There is nothing to say it has to be all or nothing for you. You can cut out eggs/dairy from what you eat every day, and still allow yourself to eat it sometimes, as a treat, when eating away from home, etc.

IMO, it's whatever works for you. Every little bit counts, and if you are more likely to stick with a plan that allows a little dairy now and then, that is still better for your health, animals and the environment than eating it every meal a day.

I just want to say that I found what you said here, and in the post prior to this, extremely helpful. I'm transitioning to veganism myself, but I can't go cold tofu, and the idea of not being able to do it all the way at first has been giving me agida (sp?). I love the way you've outlined giving up dairy gradually; it seems so smart to me! And I love what you say about it not being all or nothing. I'm not sure why exactly, but that was just a hugely comforting thing to see in print! I think the main thing for is that I don't think of it as a sacrifice. I don't feel like I'm giving anything up by not eating eggs straight (I've had to the past few days and frankly it's been driving me crazy) but there are somethings that are less obvious that I am going to have to rethink in order to give up without feeling like I'm "giving up" anything.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I really appreciated what you said. I think I'll have a much better transition to veganism if take the time I need to do it well, and if I don't spend time beating myself up for not going all the way immediately!

And just to contribute to the more current discussion, my motivation is animal rights first, and personal health...

um, a very distant second? I've never been particularly health concious aside from a desire to loose excess poundage. I am, however, discovering a new found interest in nutrition. It's more like a side-effect for me though, not the catalyst.

[bandita]

If you miss cheese, try getting the book "the Uncheese Cookbook" by Joanne Stepaniak. I have both editions, but haven't used the 2nd one much. 1st one is great. Some ingredients may seem foreign, but once you find a source, it's easy. Nutritional yeast and agar-agar may seem expensive, but a little goes a long way. In every health food store I've seen agar-agar, it's a fortune, but you can find great deals online in huge packages that can last for years.

If you miss milk, there's some tasty soymilks out there (and not-so-tasty). If you try one you don't like, don't give up. Different brands taste very different from each other. My personal favorite is Silk and 8th Continent. Great to drink alone or for recipes calling for milk.

[pinkcharge]

I think I might invest in that book, cheese is the thing I found the hardest to give up, even though the very thought of what it is is disgusting, it was melted cheese and cakes! I still crave cheese when I've got a hangover.

I don't think yeast flakes are too expensive, I suppose most vegan store cupboard things can be, but once you've bought them they can last a while.

[Haniska]

I do not agree with that actually. For me the ethical aspect is a positive benefit but my entire motivation is the health benefit. What meat and animal by-products do to the human body is inhumane to the human body first and inhumane to the animal second. As how I see it. I understand the importance of dealing with inhuman treatment to animals but if we stop treating our bodies in an inhumane way as some garbage dump then that eliminates the cause of the slaughter of animals.

Vegans don't give up leather, fish oil, Vitamin D3 and animal testing for health reasons. I really don't understand why "for health" can be a main reason (as in possibly the only reason).
I'd think that a Vegan would be more likely to avoid all animal products than a Pure Vegetarian. If both were offered birthday cake the vegan would abstain where I could see the vegetarian saying "Well..okay." Or maybe choosing the cake with whole wheat and honey instead of white flour and sugar.

[thefunkywizard]

Someone help, I love cheese.
I have been a lacto-ovo vegetarian my whole life. (my mother's parents are Seventh-Day Adventists.)
I don't drink milk, rarely have ice cream, like margarine anyways,
but sharp cheddar cheese is killing me.
Can someone suggest a good substitute, because the Veggie Slices brands are ok for sandwhiches, but for spahghetti (I like mine with cheese.)
or salads etc... I can't find a good substitute, please help.

thanks!

[harpy]

Hello - you have different fake cheese products in the US from the ones we have here. I think you can get our ones Cheezly and Sheese from online stores there if you want to try them - Cheezly exists in a melting version that might be better for your spaghetti. Another thing that's good sprinkled on spaghetti is a mixture of ground nuts, nutritional yeast and salt crystals, food-processed together to give you a powder that's a bit (but not all that much) like Parmesan - think I got this idea from a book, maybe Joanne Stepaniak's Uncheese Cookbook which has a lot of recipes for fake cheese.

I have to say none of the fake cheeses I've tried (either homemade or bought) was all that close to cheese, though. You might be better trying to find something completely different that you like equally well and can eat at the same times - a lot of us here are pretty keen on hummus which you could have with your salads. Cubes of marinated tofu can also be nice in a salad.

[herbwormwood]

Redwoood's Strong Cheddar is similar to dairy cheddar.

[horselesspaul]

Someone help, I love cheese.

Remember, it's not food, it's rancid baby calf sustenance.

[thefunkywizard]

I have always really liked hummus. Never had it on a salad.

I will try to check out the Redwoods cheese.

Another thing, Is it fairly easy to avoid bread with milk and eggs, or is there a vegan brand bread?

I live in podunk nowhere so it's hard to really do any looking.

[harpy]

I would probably have the hummus on the side as it might be a bit messy in the salad - but on the other hand there's nothing wrong with a bit of mess

Someone in the US will be able to help you about bread brands - here in the UK whey and honey find their way into a lot of commercial bread, but you can find vegan bread too. I've lately taken to making my own with a bread machine, which is not much trouble.

[herbwormwood]

I live in podunk nowhere so it's hard to really do any looking.

I suggest you look into making your own foods from staple ingredients, which can be made using ingredients you can probably find in your local supermarket.

Vegetables and fruits (fresh, tinned,frozen or dried all fine) , dried pulses and grains, herbs and spices, oils and flours.

From these you can make the following:
Breakfast cereal- in the form of porridges and museli mixes;
Dips and spreads;
Pizzas, breads and wraps;
Stews, soups, hot pots curries and sauces;
Stir fries and bakes;
Puddings and sweet dishes.
You may need a good recipe book which deals with cooking from basic ingredients, Rose Elliot's and Linda Majzlik's series are good like that.
Amazon sells them.
http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Baking-C.../dp/1897766637

Secondly try online mail order for staples which you can't make yourself. There are a number of online vegan mail order outlets.

[thefunkywizard]

Ok, I found a decent vegan cheese.
Now I need to start cooking myself more.

[horselesspaul]

Now I need to start cooking myself more.

Auto-cannibalism is at least vegan..
x

[dreamqueen]

auto-cannibalism is at least vegan..
X

lol!

[Nyx]

I really think it has to do with emotional ties to yoghurt. I have a lot of that with cheese and go on rampages trying to find vegan cheeses that magically taste exactly like dairy cheese.

I also agree with not beating yourself up. You were raised on dairy products and most likely meat so it's been psychologically built into you. To give into that here and there is normal.

Here is a link for a vegan white chocolate recipe :

http://bittersweetblog.wordpress.com...e-white-stuff/

Enjoy.

[Elahiya]

there´s also another one for white chocolate, found at goneraw.com. it´s even healthy with the lucuma in it!

Ingredients:
Cocoa butter
Lucuma Powder
Agave syrup





Preparation:
Mix the above ingredients, measurements depend on your tastes and how much you wish to make.
For Dark chocolate substitute the Lucuma Powder for Cocoa Powder.

[d0od]

I guess i'm lucky. When i went vegan (both times) as soon as i mentally said this it - i had no cravings, not after learning about what was involved/in the foods anyway.

Just remind yourself that Milk is full of pus and that you're not a baby cow.

[jasminschade]

Wow what great stories everyone is sharing! I, like Korn, when Vegan overnight. It was a black and white change after reading Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz!

When I had an urge to eat dairy, I just looked at the cover which reminded me of the horrible truths that go on. That was enough and my desire disappeared within seconds.

[adamd164]

Hi everyone. I've been a vegan for about a year now, had been veggie for about another year before that, and I feel healthy and happy, but at times for sheer convenience (I live with omnis) I'm tempted to eat some dairy products (cheese/eggs/etc)

I have managed to cope but it's proving difficult. I would like to have some sort of a prompt that makes me stop and consider the horrible experiences of the animals that these products came from -- something that immediately makes me remember why I turned to veganism in the first place.

Does anyone else have something like this, or can anyone recommend what I could use?

[harpy]

Hello. What did make you decide to go vegan in the first place? Perhaps you could print out an image or a statistic that would remind you of the reason, and carry it around with you?

As the convenience factor is important (I can relate!) you might also want to get a small stash of vegan convenience foods - whatever corresponds with what your omni friends are likely to be having - so that you can eat with them without always having to spend time chopping veg etc first? If you don't want to use commercial products you could perhaps make some sausages/burgers/pies/whatever and freeze them. Or if it's more of an eating-out problem perhaps you can research some places where you can all eat together.

[jasminschade]

Harpy, excellent post! Agreed!

Always remember why you are Vegan. Printing out an excerpt is a great idea. Maybe place a nice poem of compassion in your bathroom - somewhere you go often.

Best of luck, and always remember what a great difference you are making by saying NO! No to animal exploitation, No to animal cruelty, No to cholesterol, No to crazy-infested dead decaying animal products - the list goes on.

Also, remember you are saying yes to a life of compassion, self-betterment and over-all good health!

[Sarah_]

I have this on my fridge:
Dunno where I found it, but I keep it there and think of it.

An Address To The Casual Consumer of Flesh

It is to be expressly understood that thou art hereby implicat'd
for thy scurrilous collusion, in which thou hast participated in
a holocaust

Thou art surely deserving of thy execretion

In thy breakfast there is complicity

In thy lunch there is complicity

In thy supper there is complicity

In thy ventures to the restaurant there is complicity

In thy grocery shopping trips there is complicity

Mayest thou be struck down from thy usurp'd throne with plagues
of e-coli and salmonella

Mayest thou exist in a world of wire mesh encrusted with blood
and feces

Mayest the sinews of thy flesh be made to serve the purposes of
those who would use it to serve their own ends, flay'd and
expos'd as they see fit

Mayest thou reside in a state of perpetual moribundity

As of now, seeing as thy life has been made forefeit by virtue
of thy misdeeds, thou art mere chattel

Suffer thy progeny to the veal crates

Suffer thou to remain forevermore fetter'd, with nary enough
room to turn round

Make amends whilst thou still can. . .

In thy soft, tender, corpulent form there is an exploitable
fragility

Thy body, and the bodies of thy kin could well be made to serve
the purposes of those who would sate their desires upon thy
flesh

Thou could most certainly be made to spend the remainder of thy
days behind bars

Behind wire fences

Behind wooden slats

Behind barbed wire

Within battery cages

Within gestation stalls

Within "rape racks"

Thy corpse shall be made to fit our every purpose

Soap shall be wrought of thy flesh

Garments shall be wrought of thy flesh

Candles shall be wrought of thy flesh

Furniture shall be wrought of thy flesh

The corpses of thy kin shall be manifold, piled as high as the
heavens and lain out in lengths as long as the rivers

Make amends whilst thou still can. . .

[Bunny]

This may seem an odd suggestion, but I can be an odd person at times. What I do is tell myself that I can eat anything at all I like. If I want cheese I can have it. No one can stop me. If everyone else is having cheese on toast and I absolutely can't resist then I can go ahead and eat it. This seems to appeal to my contrary nature because the fact that I can if I want is enough to help. I think it is because when I tried telling me myself I could not have those things I wanted them more.

I also find it helps to not be hungry. If I get to starving and there is a cheese sandwich and nothing else available I know I will find it very difficult to resist. I try and keep well stocked on vegan snacks, and plan my meals in advance and that helps too.

Hope that wasn't too rambly!

[adamd164]

Thanks for all the suggestions and help guys and gals. I love that piece Sarah.

harpy, given that I was raised an omni and never put much thought into it during my childhood, I think the first time I really stopped to consider the implications were during a college lecture on farming practice (I'm studying biology). I was immediately repulsed by the descriptions of how animals are treated on factory farms.

At this point I turned to vegetarianism and was pretty content with that, especially given that veganism tends to be marginalised and viewed as difficult and an "extreme" diet. But I later saw an interview with Gary Francione (who advocates abolitionism) and found his arguments very persuasive. I also saw the film Earthlings.

Combined, I think these exposed to me that someone who consumes dairy products is complicit in this regime... the graphic images in that film really hammered it home to me; such as milked cows collapsing in distress (Francione has a quote: "there's more suffering in a glass of milk or an ice cream than in a pound of steak")... maybe I could put a clip on my mp3 player or something - it's tough to watch, but that's the point I guess.

Bunny; that's a good suggestion about the snacks. I should get more. I tend to buy stuff for meals but not much that's snack-friendly. Have you any suggestions on vegan snacks that are quick and easy?

Thanks again.

[flying plum]

rice cakes and peanut butter. and sliced apple on the top if you're not feeling too lazy (i usually am).
houmous and carrot sticks (or any vegetable in stick form, naturally or otherwise. i don't recommend mushrooms...kind of weird texture with the houmous).
i'm a bit of a biscuit fiend...which is not a very healthy snack.
fruit. though i always forget to buy it. and when i do buy it, i forget to eat it.
toast! yay for snack food!

Oh, and something that requires a bit more work, but you can make a load of them and keep them in the fridge in tupperware, is roasted chick peas. 1. open and drain a can of chick peas
2. spread out over a baking tin
3. cover in olive oil, paprika, cumin, salt and pepper. mix with your hands. 4. put in oven on 180* until they are nice and crispy.

i defy you to be able to save some for the next day!

amanda

[adamd164]

Thanks so much Amanda, I'll try all of these. I'm a peanut butter fanatic.

That roasted chick pea recipe sounds great!

[vorpal]

This video is a good one to remember if you ever feel like eating eggs. The image of chicks on a conveyor belt as if they were unfeeling insignificant objects made me never want to eat eggs again, perhaps it could help you.

With milk/cheese etc. ask yourself "would I eat veal?". If the answer is "no" ,like I imagine it would be, then consider the unwanted male calf that is the inevitable product of commercial milk production.

I would also second the motion to not tell yourself that you are not allowed to eat animal products or that you can't eat what ever you like. You can eat whatever you want to but you also make the positive choice to eat cruelty free.

Good luck

[twinkle toes]

hmm this might sound a bit selfish but I tend to stop and think of all the positive things I get from being vegan such as having a healthier lifestyle, or how happy it makes me not killing and exploiting animals. I had to do this the other night when I went to a mates house and they had spent £26 on an assortment of cheeses and everyone was winding me up and trying to convince me to eat it...

[greenspex]

No prizes for guessing what I recommend - watch Earthlings

[happy]

The smell of meat cooking usually puts me off.When that and dairy doesn't,I think of being strong in my decision and that I do it to be kind.With everyone around me eating all that,I know I cannot go back,knowing what I know.If you get very stuck,try fake meats/dairy products.I do that sometimes if having a craving.Sometimes not the best option,but it helps I do not recommend giving in to cravings,accidents with products do happen but we should not deliberately do it.I,now able to buy my own things more,not forced vegetarian sweet things for lunch like in collegewill do without rather than give in.Be strong.
Also,maybe carrying around images/photos of mutilated animals? A shocker,not nice,but the shock may help avoid temptation/reinforce your decision

[Sarah_]

Actually, the substitute thing works! My family had barbeque once and I was dying for want of some bbq-y ribs (for some reason) so I went and got those fake bbq riblet things and it was so good, it felt exactly the same.
Also, if ever get a substitute for something and it tastes nasty, what happens if the next time i get that craving i remember what the sub tasted like and i'm put off of it.

[happy]

Yeah,I'm ok with Fry's stuff,but with Redwoods it's so alike it makes me sick,thinking of it and just the taste I guess.

[jessiejessie]

Have you tried different brands of soy yogurt? I've had some that was really good.. tasted exactly like the real stuff! I've also had that runny crap that just tastes like silken tofu put into a blender. It's kind of a trial and error thing.. you might have to waste a bit of money before you can find something ideal enough.

If you can't find anything you like, just try finding something similar.. make a creamy fruit smoothie or find a vegan sour cream subsitute (vegenaise is more like sour cream than mayo) and make a yummy chip dip.

After you're vegan for long enough, your tastebuds change and your body stops being so addicted to animal products, so that when you look at the foods that used to make you drool, you just see them for what they really are. Addictive, harmful drugs.