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Thread: I'm not really vegan

  1. #1
    funkyvixen
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    Default I'm not really vegan

    (Edit: This thread is based on posts from the thread 'Why are u vegan?' in another subforum.)


    Well, I'm not really vegan (as I'll eat eggs when I know where they've come from and I'm happy with it, I'm really a dairy-free(whenever possible) vegetarian, so slight difference).

    Anyway, my initial reason for not eating meat (when I was 9, bless) was that I bottle fed a lamb, then went home to lamb for dinner. 12 years later, I never ate meat again. BUT now, I have a much more mature and educated view on it. I'm a vet student, so have spent a lot of time working with food production animals. I know first hand how these animals are treated, and to be honest, some production methods are absolutely fine from a welfare point of view - lamb for instance. Others are not - indoor-reared pig and broiler chicked for example. But at the end of the day, I just can't bring myself to eat meat now, and just plain don't want to, whether I think its welfare-friendly or not.
    I gave up dairy for health reasons (trying to lose weight, I ate waaaaaaay too much cheese) plus dairy cattle welfare is pretty poor to be honest.

    I don't object to eating meat or dairy on a philosophical basis, and I don't in any way wish to convert others - each to their own. I would encourage others to buy meat with good welfare standards, and I do educate my family & friends accordingly, but I would never criticise them for eating meat.

    A lot of people have said they are vegan "for the animals" - what exactly do you mean by that? You object to eating meat/dairy on a philosophical basis? You object to welfare standards? "For the animals" seems pretty vague to me, not really a well-explained reason!

    fv x
    Last edited by Admin; Jul 7th, 2004 at 10:34 PM. Reason: This thread is based on posts from the thread 'Why are u vegan?' in another subforum.

  2. #2
    I eve's Avatar
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    I think that being vegan 'for the animals' simply means that the person has a strong objection to eating a product, or wearing clothes, etc from the killing industry. It doesn't seem vague at all to me.

    Encouraging friends/family to buy meat with good welfare standards, is not my scene, but as they are mostly meat-eaters, we don't discuss the subject (used to and they know my views), neither do I criticise them for their choices. In other words, I don't attempt to educate family & friends as you do, and from my experience, it's a waste of breath. I just do my own thing.

  3. #3
    Goddess foxytina_69's Avatar
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    Quote eve
    Encouraging friends/family to buy meat with good welfare standards, is not my scene, but as they are mostly meat-eaters, we don't discuss the subject (used to and they know my views), neither do I criticise them for their choices. In other words, I don't attempt to educate family & friends as you do, and from my experience, it's a waste of breath. I just do my own thing.
    i agree

  4. #4
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    For me, being vegan "for the animals" means not supporting industries involved in the exploitation of animals for food, clothing or anything else. I hope that one day, if enough of us support this ideal, that animals will be liberated and freed from their slavery!

    Roxy

  5. #5
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    Quote funkyvixen
    Well, I'm not really vegan (as I'll eat eggs when I know where they've come from and I'm happy with it, I'm really a dairy-free(whenever possible) vegetarian, so slight difference).

    Anyway, my initial reason for not eating meat (when I was 9, bless) was that I bottle fed a lamb, then went home to lamb for dinner. 12 years later, I never ate meat again. BUT now, I have a much more mature and educated view on it. I'm a vet student, so have spent a lot of time working with food production animals. I know first hand how these animals are treated, and to be honest, some production methods are absolutely fine from a welfare point of view - lamb for instance. Others are not - indoor-reared pig and broiler chicked for example. But at the end of the day, I just can't bring myself to eat meat now, and just plain don't want to, whether I think its welfare-friendly or not.
    I gave up dairy for health reasons (trying to lose weight, I ate waaaaaaay too much cheese) plus dairy cattle welfare is pretty poor to be honest.

    I don't object to eating meat or dairy on a philosophical basis, and I don't in any way wish to convert others - each to their own. I would encourage others to buy meat with good welfare standards, and I do educate my family & friends accordingly, but I would never criticise them for eating meat.

    A lot of people have said they are vegan "for the animals" - what exactly do you mean by that? You object to eating meat/dairy on a philosophical basis? You object to welfare standards? "For the animals" seems pretty vague to me, not really a well-explained reason!

    fv x
    well I think it would apply to the mass industry standerds which are low and animals aren't having fun. Besides as far as I know humans are the only species that consumes the milk from another animal...

  6. #6
    funkyvixen
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    Oh, very mature guys, to take a post of mine from another thread and in attempt to make me sound bad or something. This was posted in a very long "why are you vegan" thread yesteday.

    *sigh*

    Or at least it meant to be - and I still think it was, if I'd accidently posted it as a new post then the title would be a longer version of the first line of the post. Would also be weird that all the replies happen later last night after someone obviously disliked my point of view.

    Theres a PM function you know, if you have a problem you'd like to discuss, feel free. But please don't stoop to cheap stunts!

    fv x

  7. #7
    Ex-admin Korn's Avatar
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    Quote funkyvixen
    Oh, very mature guys, to take a post of mine from another thread and in attempt to make me sound bad or something. This was posted in a very long "why are you vegan" thread yesteday.
    Since you, in that thread state that you are not vegan and go on explaining why, I think your post belongs to a thread about why you're not being vegan. Consider The Vegan Forum a 'sanctuary' for vegans, where they finally can have a place where they don't need to defend their ideas or end up in eternal discussion with people who clain that it's OK to kill animals. Many of us have had enough of that already!

    In the initial post is THIS topic, I explained that the post were moved, so nobody is trying to make someone sound bad here. Please feel free to suggest another title for this thread if you like. There are some boards out there, like veggieboards.com, where veggies in all flavours get together and fight about who is right and who is wrong regarding a lot of things. TVF is for people who are pro veganism, who are against killing or harming animals. This includes people who do not consider them 100% vegans, but who at least agree in the vegan way of looking of things.

    People are also welcome here if they are not into veganism as such, ie. if they just need some advice, as long as they're not here to promote things like 'eating chicken is a natural part of being vegetarian' or try to reduce veganism into something which it has never been. I'm sorry if you don't like the ideas this forum is built upon, all we can say is that it is a forum for people who do agree in these terms and see a need for such a forum.

    The reason I didn't only PM about this, is that this is a good way to make it even more clear for newcomers to our message board what this site is about.

    When you write "I would encourage others to buy meat with good welfare standards" or "I do think [...] that veganism is primarily a diet choice" you seem to have come to the wrong place.
    I will not eat anything that walks, swims, flies, runs, skips, hops or crawls.

  8. #8
    julieruble
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    Okay, I'm going to take this in another direction, because the poster seems pretty vegan to me in that she cares about animal welfare enough to stop supporting the industries that are cruel. Some not-100%-vegans here DO support the industries but have the right mindset, while this poster does NOT support the industries, and she gets thrown in the not a vegan folder? I don't know, seems weird. Also, I don't think she was saying she'd encourage anyone to eat meat, I think she was saying IF they were GOING to eat meat, she'd encourage them to get meat where the animals were treated well. Anyhow, onto my getting-the-post-off-topic question (one that really DOES belong in the not-a-vegan forum, and one where I'm just interested in hearing thoughts from the diverse group of vegans on the board):

    We mentioned in other threads that according to Korn and some folks here, vegan is changing diet and lifestyle for a certain purpose--that purpose being to not harm animals and not support the industries that do.

    So, this was my first question upon coming to this board... what's wrong with eggs? If they're produced by a negative industry, fine, they cause animals discomfort. But what's wrong with going to buy eggs from a person who just owns a few chickens? The chickens certainly don't need them if they aren't fertilized, and it's not as if they're forced to lay them -- they do regardless. Someone on the other board replied that "chickens aren't our egg-laying slaves" but that seems like pointless rhetoric -- small chicken-owners aren't keeping them as slaves, and would you rather them just free their chickens? I'm pretty sure the chickens would rather stay where they get fed and cared for, as opposed to wandering around in the woods somewhere.

    Now, to clarify, I'm not saying you SHOULD or that any of you would WANT to eat eggs. But I'm asking, for a person like this who finds a way to eat eggs without supporting an industry that hurts chickens -- and so, is still protecting animal welfare -- is that okay? What's your opinion?

  9. #9

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    "[V]eganism is the one truly abolitionist goal that we can all achieve – and we can achieve it immediately, starting with our next meal. It is simply inconsistent to maintain that you accept an animal rights position but that you are not a vegan." - prof. Gary Francione

    The question is not why I refuse to eat eggs or why anyone who is serious about animal liberation should not eat eggs. The question that should be asked is WHY ANYONE EATS EGGS AT ALL? There are two possible answers at best that you'll probably get:

    A. They taste good.
    B. They are nutritious.

    Wow, I'll be damned, what a fabulous philosophical and scientific justification for eating eggs! Why do vegans always have to give ten millions philosophical and scientific arguments as to why they don't eat eggs, while people who want eat them all they have to do is to say "I like the taste of scrambled eggs". I mean, who is being irrational here?

    I consider myself to be an animal rights advocate. My goal is animal liberation. Not "more humane" agriculture. Not "animal welfare". Not "free-range" whatever. Animal liberation means that we stop interfere in any shape or form with animals' lives as much as it's possible. In practice it means abolition of animal agriculture. Not reform, but abolition. The only way to achieve this is to adopt a lifestyle which dispenses with all animal products. Virtually all domesticated and farm animals are ENGINEERED species created through human intervention. They are not able to survive, procreate and feed on their own and as such they should be allowed to die out (not of hunger or by killing them of course). By allowing anyone to "own" and "humanely raise" chickens, you allow animal agriculture to continue. To quote prof. Francione: "If we are serious about animal rights, we have a responsibility to stop bringing them into existence for our purposes. We would stop bringing all domestic animals into existence for human purposes".

    Whenever you allow any kind of animal use, even if it is eating eggs from "free-range" chickens, you're on a slipper slope. By accepting that eating "free range" eggs is OK, you have to accept that drinking "free-range milk" is OK, too. Then you of course have, "free range" wool and, finally, "free range" meat. Accepting "free-range"/"more humane" you are setting a precedent for further animal use and whenever there is animal use, there is animal abuse. So in order to prevent any kind of abuse, you have to abjure the use.

    Are the damn eggs really so hard to avoid and that tasty that so many people will do anything to get the "free-range" option? Prof. Stanley Sapon once said that "if veganism has a prime value, it is simply that life-respecting compassion overrides individual issues of custom, convenience, comfort or cuisine". I know it's hard to get rid of the deeply imbedded speciesism, but we have to try. It's not about whether we should eat eggs or not. This is not the problem. It goes deeper and touches our relations with animals as such. If we allow farming of any kind to continue (be it factory farming or "free-range"), there'll be no chance of changing the moral and legal status of animals. If anyone thinks we can or should use animals in a "humane" fashion, that's just speciesism in disguise. Either we acknowledge the fact that we should leave them alone so they can live their own lives or there is no hope for animals.

  10. #10

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    Although my education and experience in the Animal Liberation movement isnīt much, and I havenīt had much experience debating the issue of veganism, I can say that on an instinctive level, using animals to serve our desires is the wrong way to live. i have trouble now understanding how anyone who has had a relationship with an animal could think otherwise.

    If I imagine for a minute that I had never heard of eating eggs, and at some point I had chickens hanging out and nesting in my yard, I doubt it would ever cross my mind to eat their eggs. It seems to me the eggs belong to the chicken and I would be stealing them. I think even if I were starving, I would be more inclined to try eating grass or flowers.

    I used to have canaries ( rescued from the street!) . The girl laid some eggs, but they werenīt fertile. When you are sure the eggs are not fertile, you have to take them out of the nest or the bird will sit in the nest indefinitely, and could starve to death. However, you should take the eggs away one at a time, or the bird could have a shock, get depressed and stop eating ( I learned all this from professional canary breeders). I felt very guilty and sad when I started taking the eggs away from her, and I kept them around a few days, because I couldnīt bear to just throw them away.

    I wasnīt vegan, I had never even heard of veganism and I knew nothing about the animal rights movement or factory farming.

    The only reason we think about eating eggs is because we have been taught to do so.

    I also donīt have a problem with Korn moving the post - the thread was `why are you vegan` - someone who eats eggs isnīt vegan. I go to a thread like `why are you vegan`to read about other people like me, and find out if I have anything in common with them. I can talk to vegetarians all day long and hear their reasons for it - there are not many places I can go to talk only to vegans.


    regards,
    globesetter

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