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Thread: I'm not really vegan

  1. #51

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    You're right. That's why I said "unless they need our protection." But it's also humans' fault that the protection is necessitated in the first place.
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  2. #52
    wuggy
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    O.K, Artichoke, sorry, take your point, I just kind of meant that sometimes you have to balance non-interference with assistance, but, yes, of course even this would not be necessary if man hadn't messed with it all in the first place!
    I never saw Chickens eat their shells for nutrients, but I know they are sometimes fed shell (including Oyster shell) beacuse this is supposed to make the eggshells stronger, thus creating a 'superior' egg. I did once have a rescue Greyhound who loved to eat eggshells, but she was just nuts!
    If hens are fed properly and allowed to forage on greens, they seem very healthy, and continue laying well into old age, when they hit the 'menopause'!
    Without wishing to be 'speciesist', hens are very dear to me! You should see a battery hen when she realises she's free! A lot of them are badly injured, and have deformed feet and beaks, but seem to 'revive' when housed and cared for correctly, and with love.

  3. #53
    wuggy
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    By the way, I have discussed this with other vegans (at said sanctuary), and we all agreed that, in theory, we might as well eat the eggs ourselves if it wasn't hurting 'our' particular hens. However, the prospect of eating another female animal's periods disgusted us - almost as much as the thought of drinking a Cow's breast milk!
    Live and let live.

  4. #54

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    Quote julieruble
    Also, Artichoke, does that non-interference then get applied to keeping pets and such also? If it does, that wouldn't eliminate the need to care for animals rescued from shelters and everything, but would eliminate breeding for pets and such. I think that idea -- i.e. not breeding for domestic use or pets or anything involving human use, while still protecting the animals around right now -- was where veganmike was going with his answer, as well.
    Yes, Julie, I think that's what would be ideal, if we would protect and take care of the "companion animals" existing as they are today and stop the breeding. I don't think there's anything wrong or negative about picking up a dog or cat from a local shelter or from a foster pet home.

    I have seen too many animals on the side of the road to think of what would happen if we didn't interfere with the shelter animals.
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  5. #55
    AR Activist Roxy's Avatar
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    Quote wuggy
    However, the prospect of eating another female animal's periods disgusted us - almost as much as the thought of drinking a Cow's breast milk!Live and let live.
    Not to mention the fat and cholesterol that just turns my stomach when I THINK about eating eggs.

  6. #56
    undercoverbrother
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    I am not a vegan, but I am curious to understand the logic behind it. If being a vegan is about respect for life, then wouldn't it be a contradiction to take away any life for our consumption? Isn't a plant a form of life? Can't an argument be made that killing a plant could also be considered immoral? I appreciate the outrage against the manner in which animals are killed, and I would support any effort to do this in a more humane fashion,whenever possible. Still however, it is my belief that while some do believe otherwise, I am not a bad person for consuming meat. I do want to understand however how taking the life of a plant is right, while taking the life of an animal is wrong, and how the value of the two lifes are differentiated?


    Thanks

  7. #57

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    Plants don't have a central nervous system or the ability to feel pain. It's not the same thing at all.

    Least harm = veganism

    Best for the planet = veganism

    Best for your body = veganism

    Best for the animals = veganism

  8. #58
    John's Avatar
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    Undercoverbrother, when/if the lost posts are recovered you will find many answers to that question. Please bear in mind, however, that this is a forum for people who are vegans or want to be vegans. So there will be no debate here.

  9. #59
    undercoverbrother
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    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.

  10. #60
    PinkFluffyCloud
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    Well, given the above answers, you are not open to Veganism and therefore do not qualify to be a member of this forum.
    I hope that, despite your 'non-inflammatory' (but still offensive to me), tone, you will be escorted away from here, asap!

  11. #61
    Mozbee
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    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    Sadunderbrothercover, there are so many like you, I know, I've had to put up with them!

    You'd probably rush to rescue a baby rabbit, whose mother had been killed in a road accident, cuddle it, nurture it. But not consider its feelings one iota when you went out to buy rabbit pie from the butchers for dinner!

  12. #62

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    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    Whether or not you know a person might alter the way you feel about them, yes, but it doesn't alter their worth and rights.
    If my husband needed a kidney and so did a stranger, of course I would want my loved one to have it, but it wouldn't mean that the stranger had any less right to that kidney.

    The worth of a life cannot be measured by where it came from, what it was born into, etc.

  13. #63

    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Quote undercoverbrother
    I don't think it's fair to compare the eating of animals, with eating a pet. A pet is an animal you have formed an emotional bond with. There are many things you wouldn't say or do to a person you care about vs. a complete stranger. The emotional connection changes your actions. Some people form an emotional bond with a household plant, and would never imagine cutting it up, and throwing it in a bowl for food.
    Wow, a pet is not an animal! Who would have thunk it.

    I have not formed an emotional with most of the human animals on this planet. That doesn't mean that I am going to eat them!

    And honestly, do you really imagine that a household plant is equivalent to an animal? Pet or free, they all have feelings. There is no survival value at all in a plant having a nervous system - which is why I have no problem with cutting them up and putting them in (vegan) stew.

  14. #64

    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Quote uww27225
    Wow! That took a long time to read through! Now I don't want to take sides, but I became pretty interested in the question as it was presented, and no, I don't think there were many answers given. I am a vegan and I don't/won't/have no desire to eat eggs. That being said, if someone is not against domesticated animals, are there negative effects of "stealing" eggs on hens?

    Someone mentioned that they naturally produce 6 or so eggs and that by taking them you are forcing them to reproduce. I can't remember who said that (please don't make me go back through the 6 pages! ) but can you please elaborate on this? If a hen naturally maintains a certain amount of eggs, what happens to them? I guess I'm curious as to the whole process of chickens laying eggs. I think understanding the entire process will answer mine and julie's question. It may seem extremely ignorant to others, but I was raised in a suburb, completely sheltered/misinformed about animals, farming, etc. I know personally, I was one of those uberignorant omnis that thought cows always produce milk whether or not they were pregnant/recently gave birth. I think better understanding the processes helps me appreciate my veganism more. Any info is greatly appreciated!

    The majority of hens in the UK have been genetically selected over hundreds of years, and now lay far more eggs a year than their wild ancestors. However, their body's have not evolved in such a way that they can support the physical strain of constant laying. Major problems caused by constant laying (instead of the six to twelve that you would expect in one year in the wild) means that hens suffer from osteoporosis, and other nutritional deficiencies.

    I know many hens who when they lay unfertilised eggs will eat them. When I worked at a sanctuary we would boil the eggs and feed it back to the hens to prevent them from developing nutritional insufficiencies caused by the rate of laying that they endure. (We boiled them to get rid of any salmonella, as these were ex battery prisoners, and very poorly when we got them.) Feeding the hens their eggs helps to improve their immune system, increase their muscle tone, physical endurance etc, improves their feathers, and through better oils in their skin etc greater resistance to ticks and other parasites. In nature a sick hen would eat her own eggs. Hens in modern western society are genetic mutants who need all the help they can get. The worst thing I have seen in a hen was one poor animal who almost died of prolapse from constant laying. We can discourage laying by giving hens fake eggs. This allows their bodies to rest, and them not to get "egg bound" an awful, and potentially fatal condition. You try pulling an egg out of a chicken whose uterus is too weakened to push it out herself. It might put you off eggs.

    I think that people need to know what a devestating effect laying can have on hens, and help the hens to be seen not just as egg machines. This is why, even when I have lived with rescued chickens, I do not eat eggs. The eggs belong to the bird in question, and I feed them back to her and anyone else who has laid an egg, including the shell, since I do not want them to suffer from bone diseases, muscle wastage etc. I also discourage laying as much as possible so that they do not end up dying of prolapses or unborn eggs bursting inside them.

    Does this answer the question?

  15. #65
    catala's Avatar
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    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Why should we give a reason to be vegan in the first place? It makes me so angry everytime someone asks me why I do not consume any animal products.... theres no need to!

  16. #66

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    Default Re: I'm not really vegan

    Realfood Mary is bang-on correct.

    "Laying Hens" have been bred to produce 250 eggs each per year.
    Before factory farming (i.e. the pioneering family farmed hens) they produced 70 eggs each per year.
    And before that, in their natural habit, they produced even less.

    A hen's egg is comprised of nutrients vital to chickens, it's purpose is a food source available for the possibility the egg is fertilized. A hen's egg contains all the nutrition needed to feed a developing embryo right from when it is layed up until it hatches. When the numbers of eggs laid exceeds what hen's bodies naturally are equipped to lay, these chickens are losing more nutrients through egg-laying than is normal or healthy.

    Humans have caused this un-naturally high loss of nutrition by specifically breeding for it. Humans have put their greed for eggs at higher priority than the hen's health, and actively implemented a trait promoting malnutrition in the entire population of "laying hens".

    This is why egg production DOES HARM HENS!

    You're right that if you are taking eggs from hens when they are treated nicely as pets, you are not directly harming the hens BUT you are also not doing anything to reverse the harmful trait that has already been bred into them. As humans that are morally opposed to harming animals, we have a duty to support the re-assimilation of the lost nutrition back into the hens. This is why sanctuaries feed the eggs back to the hens, and this is why getting in the way of the egg's return to the hen by taking the egg for yourself is NOT VEGAN.

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